Re: More on film and preglassing
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
A comon thread on his board is: Where is Derek.
> I have thought the same, if you could only get him to answer anemail..
>He is really busy, all over the place building and giving workshops.
> HJ
A comon thread on his board is: Where is Derek.
>
> proaconstrictor wrote:
>
> >Have you guys looked at the Kelsall quick sandwich method? Vac
> >bagged to a smooth table.
>
Haven't tried it myself, but everything I've read suggests that attempting
to put glass on the overhead is futile; i.e. never been done successfully.
(If you've done it, let Kern Hendrix at System 3 and the folks at Geogeon
(sp) know.)
The almost vertical surfaces I tried were not works of art.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
to put glass on the overhead is futile; i.e. never been done successfully.
(If you've done it, let Kern Hendrix at System 3 and the folks at Geogeon
(sp) know.)
The almost vertical surfaces I tried were not works of art.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <sctree@...>
> GarthAB wrote:
> > Cormorant when upside down will have a lot of vertical surfaces, and
> > hard-to-reach surfaces.
I have thought the same, if you could only get him to answer an email..
HJ
proaconstrictor wrote:
HJ
proaconstrictor wrote:
>Have you guys looked at the Kelsall quick sandwich method? Vac
>bagged to a smooth table.
>
>It's oversold as to what it can do, but it certainly works, and with
>the addition of resin infusion is really a step ahead in integrated
>boat building. It's a system dying to build a sharpie.
>
>Kelsall.com
>
>
>
>
Have you guys looked at the Kelsall quick sandwich method? Vac
bagged to a smooth table.
It's oversold as to what it can do, but it certainly works, and with
the addition of resin infusion is really a step ahead in integrated
boat building. It's a system dying to build a sharpie.
Kelsall.com
bagged to a smooth table.
It's oversold as to what it can do, but it certainly works, and with
the addition of resin infusion is really a step ahead in integrated
boat building. It's a system dying to build a sharpie.
Kelsall.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick <sctree@d...> wrote:
while the epoxy is green. I guess a squeegee with a long handle would
help.
Garth Answered: Big help. Long enough handle that you can hold it
with two hands. Lots more control, less fatigue.
Rick: But the thought of just rolling out my film full length on the
panel, then kneeling or standing right on the panel surface, rolling
out the air bubbles and working my way backwards, is pretty
attractive, ergonomically.
Garth: Yes, but get some good knee pads. Or build a table at waist
height, long enough for a full panel. then reaching halfway across a
5' panel is easy. Also easier on your back and knees..... Course then
you'll have to run around the end of the table every five
minutes.... Either way you'll need to survive this build so you can
go cruising...
Rick: Well, I guess I've run out my reasons for wanting to try this.
As I've said many times in my life, "It seemed to make sense at the
time . . . "
Garth: Don't give up on it on my account. I'm just searching for
enough motivation to try it myself. Right now I see it as a great way
to get a super smooth glassed finish, where it would really shine is
for panels that will be varnished...
I am curious on the epoxy savings.... be interesting to do a couple
test pieces and compare epoxy usage per sq. foot. A 31' boat has a
huge amount of square footage...
Here's a hint: In searching for technique hints two years ago when
planning my strip canoe Liberty, I ran across a 1953 issue of Science
& Mechanix (or Popular Mechanix, maybe--I don't have the issue at
hand at the moment). Using the "new" materials (fiberglas and
polyester) the author described how to use these and plastic sheets
exclusively to make very light panels. His method, revolutionary at
the time, applies in this discussion: full-sized paper plans, laid on
polyethylene sheets on a smooth (garage floor) surface, covered
carefully with sheet 'glas, and then soaked with (in his case) with
polyester resin, carefully squeegied out to a thin coat. The result
was a mirror finished surface on the bottom surface adjacent to the
poly, and a finished panel that could be shaped in a very short time
using tin snips, then stuck to a lightweight wood frame with more
resin. Imagine that: a panel with the cutting lines built right in!
I thought I would try it just for grins, using epoxy and 'glas scraps
after the woodstrip assembly of my canoe. Sure enough, his method
works fine to pre-fabricate panels. Then, I thought I would try it
on the canoe's surface. I tried the method you guys have been
describing (after the sealing coat). I laid the poly on top of the
still-gel epoxy surface, and using body-putty squeegees, smoothed out
some of the surface area and let it cure.
MY Result: poly peeled off easily on the areas where I got it right
(i.e., smooth) and the finish was mirror smooth. Not so good where
there was a wrinkle in the poly (had to smooth it out with sander,
and some of the poly got trapped in the wrinkle in the epoxy). This
had no impact, because applying the varnish later eliminated any
sanding scratches. There's no reason why this method wouldn't work
more easily on a flat ply-panel under the poly sheet, where you could
apply and then squeege the epoxy, bubbles and wrinkles out to the
edges.
I don't see any reason to do it on a table, the floor under the panel
would do fine, especially if using a long-handled tool to spread the
epoxy under the poly sheet. Could even do it in place, and after
removing the poly, eliminate the evidence round the edges with a
careful waterproofing caulk of epoxy and sawdust or wood flour mix.
Some other thoughts: 1. The original article suggested using
cellophane, which apparently doesn't stick to polyester resin. I
believe an earlier contributor got it right, too, with either waxed
paper or one of the thin-film kitchen plastic wraps. Neither sticks
to epoxy.
2. Plan the way you are going to get rid of the wrinkles in advance
(bubbles, also). Pre-planning your operation will make the surface a
lot easier to smooth.
3. Economy in use of epoxy is one consideration for this method: you
could have better depth control if you can do the squeegee work
quickly to distribute the stuff under the sheet.
4. A more important consideration at my house is avoiding the
potential mess of open epoxy work. A layer of poly on the floor, a
panel on top, (potentially, a pattern laid on top of this), a glass
layer and epoxy, followed by another poly sheet on top, makes a
pretty clean sandwich that when the epoxy cures has the potential of
zero epoxy mess on your floor, hands, elbows, shirt and pants,
kitchen floor, etc.
Best in boating,
JR Sloan
Cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
> > Then I figure, since I'm preglassing flat, it'll be hard to reachthe center parts a 4' or 5'-wide panel to fill it nice and smooth
while the epoxy is green. I guess a squeegee with a long handle would
help.
Garth Answered: Big help. Long enough handle that you can hold it
with two hands. Lots more control, less fatigue.
Rick: But the thought of just rolling out my film full length on the
panel, then kneeling or standing right on the panel surface, rolling
out the air bubbles and working my way backwards, is pretty
attractive, ergonomically.
Garth: Yes, but get some good knee pads. Or build a table at waist
height, long enough for a full panel. then reaching halfway across a
5' panel is easy. Also easier on your back and knees..... Course then
you'll have to run around the end of the table every five
minutes.... Either way you'll need to survive this build so you can
go cruising...
Rick: Well, I guess I've run out my reasons for wanting to try this.
As I've said many times in my life, "It seemed to make sense at the
time . . . "
Garth: Don't give up on it on my account. I'm just searching for
enough motivation to try it myself. Right now I see it as a great way
to get a super smooth glassed finish, where it would really shine is
for panels that will be varnished...
I am curious on the epoxy savings.... be interesting to do a couple
test pieces and compare epoxy usage per sq. foot. A 31' boat has a
huge amount of square footage...
Here's a hint: In searching for technique hints two years ago when
planning my strip canoe Liberty, I ran across a 1953 issue of Science
& Mechanix (or Popular Mechanix, maybe--I don't have the issue at
hand at the moment). Using the "new" materials (fiberglas and
polyester) the author described how to use these and plastic sheets
exclusively to make very light panels. His method, revolutionary at
the time, applies in this discussion: full-sized paper plans, laid on
polyethylene sheets on a smooth (garage floor) surface, covered
carefully with sheet 'glas, and then soaked with (in his case) with
polyester resin, carefully squeegied out to a thin coat. The result
was a mirror finished surface on the bottom surface adjacent to the
poly, and a finished panel that could be shaped in a very short time
using tin snips, then stuck to a lightweight wood frame with more
resin. Imagine that: a panel with the cutting lines built right in!
I thought I would try it just for grins, using epoxy and 'glas scraps
after the woodstrip assembly of my canoe. Sure enough, his method
works fine to pre-fabricate panels. Then, I thought I would try it
on the canoe's surface. I tried the method you guys have been
describing (after the sealing coat). I laid the poly on top of the
still-gel epoxy surface, and using body-putty squeegees, smoothed out
some of the surface area and let it cure.
MY Result: poly peeled off easily on the areas where I got it right
(i.e., smooth) and the finish was mirror smooth. Not so good where
there was a wrinkle in the poly (had to smooth it out with sander,
and some of the poly got trapped in the wrinkle in the epoxy). This
had no impact, because applying the varnish later eliminated any
sanding scratches. There's no reason why this method wouldn't work
more easily on a flat ply-panel under the poly sheet, where you could
apply and then squeege the epoxy, bubbles and wrinkles out to the
edges.
I don't see any reason to do it on a table, the floor under the panel
would do fine, especially if using a long-handled tool to spread the
epoxy under the poly sheet. Could even do it in place, and after
removing the poly, eliminate the evidence round the edges with a
careful waterproofing caulk of epoxy and sawdust or wood flour mix.
Some other thoughts: 1. The original article suggested using
cellophane, which apparently doesn't stick to polyester resin. I
believe an earlier contributor got it right, too, with either waxed
paper or one of the thin-film kitchen plastic wraps. Neither sticks
to epoxy.
2. Plan the way you are going to get rid of the wrinkles in advance
(bubbles, also). Pre-planning your operation will make the surface a
lot easier to smooth.
3. Economy in use of epoxy is one consideration for this method: you
could have better depth control if you can do the squeegee work
quickly to distribute the stuff under the sheet.
4. A more important consideration at my house is avoiding the
potential mess of open epoxy work. A layer of poly on the floor, a
panel on top, (potentially, a pattern laid on top of this), a glass
layer and epoxy, followed by another poly sheet on top, makes a
pretty clean sandwich that when the epoxy cures has the potential of
zero epoxy mess on your floor, hands, elbows, shirt and pants,
kitchen floor, etc.
Best in boating,
JR Sloan
Cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
GarthAB wrote:
topside work?
fatigue.
Or build a table at waist height, long enough for a full panel. then reaching halfway across
a 5' panel is easy. Also easier on your back and knees..... Course then you'll have to run
around the end of the table every five minutes.... Either way you'll need to survive this
build so you can go cruising....
myself. Right now I see it as a great way to get a super smooth glassed finish, where it
would really shine is for panels that will be varnished.....
I am curious on the epoxy savings.... be interesting to do a couple test pieces and compare
epoxy usage per sq. foot. A 31' boat has a huge amount of square footage.......
Rick-
>Do you have space to roll her on her side and set up some temporary scaffolding for the
>
> Cormorant when upside down will have a lot of vertical surfaces, and
> hard-to-reach surfaces.
topside work?
> Then I figure, since I'm preglassing flat, it'll be hard to reach theBig help. Long enough handle that you can hold it with two hands. Lots more control, less
> center parts a 4' or 5'-wide panel to fill it nice and smooth while
> the epoxy is green. I guess a squeegee with a long handle would help.
fatigue.
>Yes, but get some good knee pads.
> But the thought of just rolling out my film full length on the panel,
> then kneeling or standing right on the panel surface, rolling out the
> air bubbles and working my way backwards, is pretty attractive,
> ergonomically.
Or build a table at waist height, long enough for a full panel. then reaching halfway across
a 5' panel is easy. Also easier on your back and knees..... Course then you'll have to run
around the end of the table every five minutes.... Either way you'll need to survive this
build so you can go cruising....
>Don't give up on it on my account. I'm just searching for enough motivation to try it
>
> Well, I guess I've run out my reasons for wanting to try this. As
> I've said many times in my life, "It seemed to make sense at the
> time . . . "
myself. Right now I see it as a great way to get a super smooth glassed finish, where it
would really shine is for panels that will be varnished.....
I am curious on the epoxy savings.... be interesting to do a couple test pieces and compare
epoxy usage per sq. foot. A 31' boat has a huge amount of square footage.......
Rick-
>
>
> All best,
> Garth
>
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Okay -- daughter delivered to school and just a few more random
thoughts on this:
Cormorant when upside down will have a lot of vertical surfaces, and
hard-to-reach surfaces. So preglassing flat makes a lot of sense --
fewer drips, etc. Less sanding while holding that damn 50-pound (or
so it seems after half an hour) sander up, less sanding while on a
ladder. So that's all just an argument for preglassing.
Then I figure, since I'm preglassing flat, it'll be hard to reach the
center parts a 4' or 5'-wide panel to fill it nice and smooth while
the epoxy is green. I guess a squeegee with a long handle would help.
But the thought of just rolling out my film full length on the panel,
then kneeling or standing right on the panel surface, rolling out the
air bubbles and working my way backwards, is pretty attractive,
ergonomically.
Well, I guess I've run out my reasons for wanting to try this. As
I've said many times in my life, "It seemed to make sense at the
time . . . "
All best,
Garth
thoughts on this:
Cormorant when upside down will have a lot of vertical surfaces, and
hard-to-reach surfaces. So preglassing flat makes a lot of sense --
fewer drips, etc. Less sanding while holding that damn 50-pound (or
so it seems after half an hour) sander up, less sanding while on a
ladder. So that's all just an argument for preglassing.
Then I figure, since I'm preglassing flat, it'll be hard to reach the
center parts a 4' or 5'-wide panel to fill it nice and smooth while
the epoxy is green. I guess a squeegee with a long handle would help.
But the thought of just rolling out my film full length on the panel,
then kneeling or standing right on the panel surface, rolling out the
air bubbles and working my way backwards, is pretty attractive,
ergonomically.
Well, I guess I've run out my reasons for wanting to try this. As
I've said many times in my life, "It seemed to make sense at the
time . . . "
All best,
Garth