Re: [bolger] Re: Kiln dried Douglas Fir
Rick,
I miss it sometimes but at 44 I really don't want to climb anymore especially since I'm 50lbs over weight. I now sell bulbs and perennials to the garden center trade along the eastern seaboard. Big difference.
Its Been 15 years or so since I had his (shigo) books but he does touch on a number of issues regarding walling off invasion. If I'm not mistaking there are chemicals in between either the individual cells or grouth rings which form a 'hard shell barrier' so to speak. When heat is applied this can be broken down leaving the wood exposed to invasion. Additionally there is much shrinkage and ripping of both the cells and structure from the fast drying process which contributes to brittleness and splitting.
I realize this is all very layman-like but it is all I can remember. For woodworking I remember Kiln-Dried lumber as "wood that can't protect itself".
I used KD-DF extensively on the interior and the gunnels of my Triton to good affect but only because these areas are varnished and dry.
On the internet I have often found small family sized mills or even average homeowners selling custom cut DF of their land....No.CA, southern OR....sometime its even old-grouth and all at 2.50 US/ bd/ft.
I worked in the Redwoods (Eureka and Brookings) and big DF country years ago and the biggest tree I have been up was an old-grouth DF in Richarson Grove which died and was hanging over a cabin. I topped it at over 225' up and it was 12-14" in dia. there.
Attached are some before and after shots of my boat using DF exclusively, both in the ply, companionway and window trim.
Don Tyson wrote:
changes occurring to wood cells in the context of the
living/declining/dying tree. I've never heard him address what happens
to cut lumber.
Rick-
another Arborist-
Bolger rules!!!
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I miss it sometimes but at 44 I really don't want to climb anymore especially since I'm 50lbs over weight. I now sell bulbs and perennials to the garden center trade along the eastern seaboard. Big difference.
Its Been 15 years or so since I had his (shigo) books but he does touch on a number of issues regarding walling off invasion. If I'm not mistaking there are chemicals in between either the individual cells or grouth rings which form a 'hard shell barrier' so to speak. When heat is applied this can be broken down leaving the wood exposed to invasion. Additionally there is much shrinkage and ripping of both the cells and structure from the fast drying process which contributes to brittleness and splitting.
I realize this is all very layman-like but it is all I can remember. For woodworking I remember Kiln-Dried lumber as "wood that can't protect itself".
I used KD-DF extensively on the interior and the gunnels of my Triton to good affect but only because these areas are varnished and dry.
On the internet I have often found small family sized mills or even average homeowners selling custom cut DF of their land....No.CA, southern OR....sometime its even old-grouth and all at 2.50 US/ bd/ft.
I worked in the Redwoods (Eureka and Brookings) and big DF country years ago and the biggest tree I have been up was an old-grouth DF in Richarson Grove which died and was hanging over a cabin. I topped it at over 225' up and it was 12-14" in dia. there.
Attached are some before and after shots of my boat using DF exclusively, both in the ply, companionway and window trim.
Don Tyson wrote:
> I think back to my Arborist background and i believe the real reasonShigo talks and writes at length of the biochemical and physiological
> not to use Kiln dried lumber is that the process of Kiln drying
> damages the ability of the wood cells to wall off invasions of wood
> decay pathogens such as Conch and others.
changes occurring to wood cells in the context of the
living/declining/dying tree. I've never heard him address what happens
to cut lumber.
Rick-
another Arborist-
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don Tyson wrote:
changes occurring to wood cells in the context of the
living/declining/dying tree. I've never heard him address what happens
to cut lumber.
Rick-
another Arborist-
> I think back to my Arborist background and i believe the real reasonShigo talks and writes at length of the biochemical and physiological
> not to use Kiln dried lumber is that the process of Kiln drying
> damages the ability of the wood cells to wall off invasions of wood
> decay pathogens such as Conch and others.
changes occurring to wood cells in the context of the
living/declining/dying tree. I've never heard him address what happens
to cut lumber.
Rick-
another Arborist-
I think back to my Arborist background and i believe the real reason not to use Kiln dried lumber is that the process of Kiln drying damages the ability of the wood cells to wall off invasions of wood decay pathogens such as Conch and others. This would not matter in areas where the wood remains constantly dry. Of course this is rarely the case anywhere on a boat except in the cabin. Ruel Parker mentions something about this in one of his books.
sctree <sctree@...> wrote:
When I built my "birdsmouth" mast I made extra staves, two in case I
broke any, (which I didn't), and a third that I cut up into 2' sections
to make a sample section of the spar. Once I had that sample section I
was able to make up a length of plug section to fit loosely letting
epoxy take up the gap. When assembling the mast I included the plug in
the stave "roll-up". It was pleasantly surprising to me how everything
sort of fell together nicely. I did make the plug long enough to go
above the partners, and cut the top of the plug at a steep angle to
avoid a hard spot. I'm glad the plug was as big (heavy) as it is. It
adds just enough weight to the base of the mast to counter the weight of
the upper mast when trying to step the mast. With a tabernacle you might
want to weight the mast base with lead.
My thought on the kiln dried doug fir not being so great was due to our
locally available VG douglas fir which is kiln dried so fast that it
becomes brittle, easily splintering and splitting. Not what you would
want for a batten that will be flexed hard. The air dried doug fir is
significantly more flexible.
Rick-
Roger Derby wrote:
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sctree <sctree@...> wrote:
When I built my "birdsmouth" mast I made extra staves, two in case I
broke any, (which I didn't), and a third that I cut up into 2' sections
to make a sample section of the spar. Once I had that sample section I
was able to make up a length of plug section to fit loosely letting
epoxy take up the gap. When assembling the mast I included the plug in
the stave "roll-up". It was pleasantly surprising to me how everything
sort of fell together nicely. I did make the plug long enough to go
above the partners, and cut the top of the plug at a steep angle to
avoid a hard spot. I'm glad the plug was as big (heavy) as it is. It
adds just enough weight to the base of the mast to counter the weight of
the upper mast when trying to step the mast. With a tabernacle you might
want to weight the mast base with lead.
My thought on the kiln dried doug fir not being so great was due to our
locally available VG douglas fir which is kiln dried so fast that it
becomes brittle, easily splintering and splitting. Not what you would
want for a batten that will be flexed hard. The air dried doug fir is
significantly more flexible.
Rick-
Roger Derby wrote:
> Thanks.Bolger rules!!!
>
> I'll be building the "cruising conversion" to get out of the sun and wind,
> so it will have a tabernacle for the mast. I'd figured to fill the
> section
> of the mast from heel to maybe foot above the pivot point (with wood) and
> taper the filling to avoid a hard stress point. Of course, the impetus to
> use the Noble system is the reduced weight aloft (and during
> hoisting/erecting).
>
> No, I haven't quite figured out the technique yet. The article I read
> suggested boring out the center and inserting a dowel to reinforce the
> ends,
> but I'm not sure I can drill a 3" diameter hole, three feet long, so maybe
> I'll fit an octagonal shaped "dowel" for a filler. Wood flour filled
> epoxy
> makes up for less than perfect joinery.
>
> On the dinghy I built, I dealt with knots by graving a block into the bad
> spot, if minor. Otherwise I'll cut it out and scarf the pieces. 8:1 with
> filled epoxy seems to give adequate homogeneity.
>
> Roger
>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I built my "birdsmouth" mast I made extra staves, two in case I
broke any, (which I didn't), and a third that I cut up into 2' sections
to make a sample section of the spar. Once I had that sample section I
was able to make up a length of plug section to fit loosely letting
epoxy take up the gap. When assembling the mast I included the plug in
the stave "roll-up". It was pleasantly surprising to me how everything
sort of fell together nicely. I did make the plug long enough to go
above the partners, and cut the top of the plug at a steep angle to
avoid a hard spot. I'm glad the plug was as big (heavy) as it is. It
adds just enough weight to the base of the mast to counter the weight of
the upper mast when trying to step the mast. With a tabernacle you might
want to weight the mast base with lead.
My thought on the kiln dried doug fir not being so great was due to our
locally available VG douglas fir which is kiln dried so fast that it
becomes brittle, easily splintering and splitting. Not what you would
want for a batten that will be flexed hard. The air dried doug fir is
significantly more flexible.
Rick-
Roger Derby wrote:
broke any, (which I didn't), and a third that I cut up into 2' sections
to make a sample section of the spar. Once I had that sample section I
was able to make up a length of plug section to fit loosely letting
epoxy take up the gap. When assembling the mast I included the plug in
the stave "roll-up". It was pleasantly surprising to me how everything
sort of fell together nicely. I did make the plug long enough to go
above the partners, and cut the top of the plug at a steep angle to
avoid a hard spot. I'm glad the plug was as big (heavy) as it is. It
adds just enough weight to the base of the mast to counter the weight of
the upper mast when trying to step the mast. With a tabernacle you might
want to weight the mast base with lead.
My thought on the kiln dried doug fir not being so great was due to our
locally available VG douglas fir which is kiln dried so fast that it
becomes brittle, easily splintering and splitting. Not what you would
want for a batten that will be flexed hard. The air dried doug fir is
significantly more flexible.
Rick-
Roger Derby wrote:
> Thanks.
>
> I'll be building the "cruising conversion" to get out of the sun and wind,
> so it will have a tabernacle for the mast. I'd figured to fill the
> section
> of the mast from heel to maybe foot above the pivot point (with wood) and
> taper the filling to avoid a hard stress point. Of course, the impetus to
> use the Noble system is the reduced weight aloft (and during
> hoisting/erecting).
>
> No, I haven't quite figured out the technique yet. The article I read
> suggested boring out the center and inserting a dowel to reinforce the
> ends,
> but I'm not sure I can drill a 3" diameter hole, three feet long, so maybe
> I'll fit an octagonal shaped "dowel" for a filler. Wood flour filled
> epoxy
> makes up for less than perfect joinery.
>
> On the dinghy I built, I dealt with knots by graving a block into the bad
> spot, if minor. Otherwise I'll cut it out and scarf the pieces. 8:1 with
> filled epoxy seems to give adequate homogeneity.
>
> Roger
>
Thanks.
I'll be building the "cruising conversion" to get out of the sun and wind,
so it will have a tabernacle for the mast. I'd figured to fill the section
of the mast from heel to maybe foot above the pivot point (with wood) and
taper the filling to avoid a hard stress point. Of course, the impetus to
use the Noble system is the reduced weight aloft (and during
hoisting/erecting).
No, I haven't quite figured out the technique yet. The article I read
suggested boring out the center and inserting a dowel to reinforce the ends,
but I'm not sure I can drill a 3" diameter hole, three feet long, so maybe
I'll fit an octagonal shaped "dowel" for a filler. Wood flour filled epoxy
makes up for less than perfect joinery.
On the dinghy I built, I dealt with knots by graving a block into the bad
spot, if minor. Otherwise I'll cut it out and scarf the pieces. 8:1 with
filled epoxy seems to give adequate homogeneity.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
I'll be building the "cruising conversion" to get out of the sun and wind,
so it will have a tabernacle for the mast. I'd figured to fill the section
of the mast from heel to maybe foot above the pivot point (with wood) and
taper the filling to avoid a hard stress point. Of course, the impetus to
use the Noble system is the reduced weight aloft (and during
hoisting/erecting).
No, I haven't quite figured out the technique yet. The article I read
suggested boring out the center and inserting a dowel to reinforce the ends,
but I'm not sure I can drill a 3" diameter hole, three feet long, so maybe
I'll fit an octagonal shaped "dowel" for a filler. Wood flour filled epoxy
makes up for less than perfect joinery.
On the dinghy I built, I dealt with knots by graving a block into the bad
spot, if minor. Otherwise I'll cut it out and scarf the pieces. 8:1 with
filled epoxy seems to give adequate homogeneity.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "jas_orr" <jas_orr@...>
> If I were you, I'd go ahead and use it, should make a good mast. I'd
> be more concerned about knots than whether it was kiln dried -- very
> little wood is sold in lumber yards that isn't kiln dried, and
> Douglas Fir is Douglas Fir either way. But have a look at Fraser
> Howell's story about his broken birdsmouth mast in the Chebacco News,
> on the Chebacco page. His broke where it went through the cabin
> roof, so he built another but reinforced this one. There's quite a
> lot of information in the Chebacco News about different ways to do
> this if I remember correctly.
>
> Best of luck with it, have you sent in pictures and stuff on your
> boat to the Chebacco page yet?
>
> Jamie Orr
> Chebacco "Wayward Lass"
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > Just how bad is the kiln dried stuff?
> >
> > I've got a substantial investment in DF bought for a now-
> > abandoned project, and I was hoping to use the Noble system
> > (bird's mouth) approach to making spars for a Chebacco. It's
> > been sitting in a high humidity area for a couple of years now,
> > so I guess what we're talking about is cell damage from
> > the drying process???.
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@s...
> >http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sctree" <sctree@d...>
> >
> > > > The only realisticly economical woods
> > > > I have available are D.Fir and Redwood.
> > >
> > > Redwood is too brittle. Dougfir would work great if not kiln
> > > dried. Go buy a green Dougfir 2x- and rip out rough battens
> > > now so it will air dry by the time you need it.
If I were you, I'd go ahead and use it, should make a good mast. I'd
be more concerned about knots than whether it was kiln dried -- very
little wood is sold in lumber yards that isn't kiln dried, and
Douglas Fir is Douglas Fir either way. But have a look at Fraser
Howell's story about his broken birdsmouth mast in the Chebacco News,
on the Chebacco page. His broke where it went through the cabin
roof, so he built another but reinforced this one. There's quite a
lot of information in the Chebacco News about different ways to do
this if I remember correctly.
Best of luck with it, have you sent in pictures and stuff on your
boat to the Chebacco page yet?
Jamie Orr
Chebacco "Wayward Lass"
be more concerned about knots than whether it was kiln dried -- very
little wood is sold in lumber yards that isn't kiln dried, and
Douglas Fir is Douglas Fir either way. But have a look at Fraser
Howell's story about his broken birdsmouth mast in the Chebacco News,
on the Chebacco page. His broke where it went through the cabin
roof, so he built another but reinforced this one. There's quite a
lot of information in the Chebacco News about different ways to do
this if I remember correctly.
Best of luck with it, have you sent in pictures and stuff on your
boat to the Chebacco page yet?
Jamie Orr
Chebacco "Wayward Lass"
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Just how bad is the kiln dried stuff?
>
> I've got a substantial investment in DF bought for a now-abandoned
project,
> and I was hoping to use the Noble system (bird's mouth) approach to
making
> spars for a Chebacco. It's been sitting in a high humidity area
for a
> couple of years now, so I guess what we're talking about is cell
damage from
> the drying process???.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sctree" <sctree@d...>
>
> > > The only realisticly economical woods
> > > I have available are D.Fir and Redwood.
> >
> > Redwood is too brittle. Dougfir would work great if not kiln
dried. Go
> > buy a green Dougfir 2x- and rip out rough battens now so it will
air dry
> > by the time you need it.
More important is where the douglasfir came from. If it is west coast
even second growth you should not worry about it. In a sense dry is
dry though there though there is some degradation of strength with
high temperatures. These differences should not make any difference
unless you are working to use the smallest piece of wood posible
machined to the max. More important is moisture content. In general
dry wood is stronger. You may have a problem air drying green lumber
(if you can get it) to a reasonable moisture content.
Sticker a good stack of your DF in your garage or basement and let the
moisture content stabilize. Then cut your wood. Then let that sit for
a couple of weeks. Then go to it. Presumably you are going to use
epoxy for gluing the staves. The epoxy gluing and outside coat will
keep the moisture content fairly constant
even second growth you should not worry about it. In a sense dry is
dry though there though there is some degradation of strength with
high temperatures. These differences should not make any difference
unless you are working to use the smallest piece of wood posible
machined to the max. More important is moisture content. In general
dry wood is stronger. You may have a problem air drying green lumber
(if you can get it) to a reasonable moisture content.
Sticker a good stack of your DF in your garage or basement and let the
moisture content stabilize. Then cut your wood. Then let that sit for
a couple of weeks. Then go to it. Presumably you are going to use
epoxy for gluing the staves. The epoxy gluing and outside coat will
keep the moisture content fairly constant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Just how bad is the kiln dried stuff?
>
> I've got a substantial investment in DF bought for a now-abandoned
project,
> and I was hoping to use the Noble system (bird's mouth) approach to
making
> spars for a Chebacco. It's been sitting in a high humidity area for a
> couple of years now, so I guess what we're talking about is cell
damage from
> the drying process???.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sctree" <sctree@d...>
>
> > > The only realisticly economical woods
> > > I have available are D.Fir and Redwood.
> >
> > Redwood is too brittle. Dougfir would work great if not kiln dried. Go
> > buy a green Dougfir 2x- and rip out rough battens now so it will
air dry
> > by the time you need it.
Just how bad is the kiln dried stuff?
I've got a substantial investment in DF bought for a now-abandoned project,
and I was hoping to use the Noble system (bird's mouth) approach to making
spars for a Chebacco. It's been sitting in a high humidity area for a
couple of years now, so I guess what we're talking about is cell damage from
the drying process???.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
I've got a substantial investment in DF bought for a now-abandoned project,
and I was hoping to use the Noble system (bird's mouth) approach to making
spars for a Chebacco. It's been sitting in a high humidity area for a
couple of years now, so I guess what we're talking about is cell damage from
the drying process???.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "sctree" <sctree@...>
> > The only realisticly economical woods
> > I have available are D.Fir and Redwood.
>
> Redwood is too brittle. Dougfir would work great if not kiln dried. Go
> buy a green Dougfir 2x- and rip out rough battens now so it will air dry
> by the time you need it.