Re: [bolger] Re: Steam bent frames.
--- pvanderwaart wrote:
take on the minimal, frugal daysailer to
L.F. Herreshoff's.
LFH's Rozinante is much more beautiful, but
PCB's is more frugal, and has a greater elegance
of sorts, if you admire function over form.
Quoting PCB's comparison of Burgundy to Rozinante:
"Burgundy�s all-up weight (I hope) is not much more
than the lead keel casting of Rozinante. All her
planking, and all her framing except for the deck
beams, is straight-edged and constant bevel. The sides
are built flat, bent around three molds, and the
bottom planking is screwed straight on. She has no
true keel, no clamp, no floor timbers, no breasthooks,
no rabbets. Except in the coaming, there�s no
cut-and-try work at all, and no loft work.
Aloft, she has no standing rigging: no wire, no
tangs, no terminals, no turnbuckles, no chainplates.
The sprit booms dispense with travelers, vangs, and
half the sheet blocks and cordage. She has no
halyards, sheaves, or tracks. The sails are furled by
being rolled up around the leeches, Dovekie-style, and
instead of being reefed, they�re feathered, by setting
up on the powerful snotters. All this saves more than
money; weight aloft is saved by the slender mastheads
that don�t have to accommodate sheaves or stand the
stresses of halyard falls (same principle as the
halyard hooks in fine-tuned racing machines). Wind
resistance is an order of magnitude less, and
aerodynamic efficiency is improved by letting the
luffs drop over to the lee side of the masts. Since
there�s no compression from standing rigging or from a
jib�s luff tension, the stresses imposed on the hull
by the rig are very small, which further simplifies
the structure and improves its longevity.
Incidentally, with this rig she can be gotten
underway and put to bed in about 10 seconds each.
The result of all this process of elimination is that
she could be built for less than a third of the price
of a Rozinante. So Brad thinks, and he would like to
build one to prove it.
There�s a catch. Rozinante is one of the all-time
masterpieces of art. For visual satisfaction, three
Butgundys don�t equal one Rozinante. Notwithstanding
Brad�s Yankee outrage, I think the Rozinante is worth
what she costs. But for somebody who doesn�t have the
price of a Rubens original, there may be some merit in
a Playboy centerfold. "
>>> which design did PCBI found it fascinating to compare Bolger's
> > make as his answer to Rozinante?
> ...you were probably thinking of Burgundy.
take on the minimal, frugal daysailer to
L.F. Herreshoff's.
LFH's Rozinante is much more beautiful, but
PCB's is more frugal, and has a greater elegance
of sorts, if you admire function over form.
Quoting PCB's comparison of Burgundy to Rozinante:
"Burgundy�s all-up weight (I hope) is not much more
than the lead keel casting of Rozinante. All her
planking, and all her framing except for the deck
beams, is straight-edged and constant bevel. The sides
are built flat, bent around three molds, and the
bottom planking is screwed straight on. She has no
true keel, no clamp, no floor timbers, no breasthooks,
no rabbets. Except in the coaming, there�s no
cut-and-try work at all, and no loft work.
Aloft, she has no standing rigging: no wire, no
tangs, no terminals, no turnbuckles, no chainplates.
The sprit booms dispense with travelers, vangs, and
half the sheet blocks and cordage. She has no
halyards, sheaves, or tracks. The sails are furled by
being rolled up around the leeches, Dovekie-style, and
instead of being reefed, they�re feathered, by setting
up on the powerful snotters. All this saves more than
money; weight aloft is saved by the slender mastheads
that don�t have to accommodate sheaves or stand the
stresses of halyard falls (same principle as the
halyard hooks in fine-tuned racing machines). Wind
resistance is an order of magnitude less, and
aerodynamic efficiency is improved by letting the
luffs drop over to the lee side of the masts. Since
there�s no compression from standing rigging or from a
jib�s luff tension, the stresses imposed on the hull
by the rig are very small, which further simplifies
the structure and improves its longevity.
Incidentally, with this rig she can be gotten
underway and put to bed in about 10 seconds each.
The result of all this process of elimination is that
she could be built for less than a third of the price
of a Rozinante. So Brad thinks, and he would like to
build one to prove it.
There�s a catch. Rozinante is one of the all-time
masterpieces of art. For visual satisfaction, three
Butgundys don�t equal one Rozinante. Notwithstanding
Brad�s Yankee outrage, I think the Rozinante is worth
what she costs. But for somebody who doesn�t have the
price of a Rubens original, there may be some merit in
a Playboy centerfold. "
I think Elm and gum were only used for blocking and wormwood (outside bottom of keel). In our area, and I think even on the Morgan at Mystic many knees and arches were made of exavated tamarac ( larch). Ash is often thought of as superior to White Oak for interior joinery but lacks the rot resistence.
Bob Chamberland <cha62759@...> wrote:There is white oak around and it doesn't have to come from New
England. Oak isn't the only wood you can use. Chapelle lists quite a
few. For extreme bends: Rock Elm, Ash, Hickory and Pecan. For lesser
bends: White Oak, Beech, Birch, Maple, and Red Gum. Green lumber is
easier to handle because of the moisture content. Chapelle says to
soak your lumber in water prior to steaming or boiling to prevent the
wood from drying out resulting in brittleness. There will soon be a
lot of White Ash available because of the Golden Ash Borer. Few of the
above woods have any particular resistence to decay. Locust has high
resistence to decay if heartwood. White Oak, Beech, Birch, Elm, Ash,
Maple etc have moderate to low resistence to decay and only heartwood.
There have been demonstrations of steam bent frames given in this
neighborhood (one of roughly 12"x12" cross section) and the wood was
local. I've seen the same demos at Bayfield, WI. If you want to build
a traditional hull you might want to consult Chapelle or another more
traditional text.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman"
wrote:
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Chamberland <cha62759@...> wrote:There is white oak around and it doesn't have to come from New
England. Oak isn't the only wood you can use. Chapelle lists quite a
few. For extreme bends: Rock Elm, Ash, Hickory and Pecan. For lesser
bends: White Oak, Beech, Birch, Maple, and Red Gum. Green lumber is
easier to handle because of the moisture content. Chapelle says to
soak your lumber in water prior to steaming or boiling to prevent the
wood from drying out resulting in brittleness. There will soon be a
lot of White Ash available because of the Golden Ash Borer. Few of the
above woods have any particular resistence to decay. Locust has high
resistence to decay if heartwood. White Oak, Beech, Birch, Elm, Ash,
Maple etc have moderate to low resistence to decay and only heartwood.
There have been demonstrations of steam bent frames given in this
neighborhood (one of roughly 12"x12" cross section) and the wood was
local. I've seen the same demos at Bayfield, WI. If you want to build
a traditional hull you might want to consult Chapelle or another more
traditional text.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman"
wrote:
> Two weeks back, this group discussedBolger rules!!!
> boat building books. [Having re-re-re-
> read all the Bolger books, I am eager
> to find new reading in the same vein.]
>
> I am especially enjoying L.F. Herreshoff's
> Sensible Cruising Designs. But also,
> Rabl's and Buehler's Backyard Building books.
>
> A recurring theme in these books is the loss
> of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
> to deal with it. Similar with Phil Bolgers'
> boat designs. [His plywood box boats are his
> answer to the loss of the traditional wood
> problem.]
>
> In short, the *really* pretty boats, like
> L.F. Herreshoff's Rozinante, require steam
> bent frames, which ideally require white
> oak from New England. [now nearly unavailable]
>
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
>
> How have other people solved this problem?
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is white oak around and it doesn't have to come from New
England. Oak isn't the only wood you can use. Chapelle lists quite a
few. For extreme bends: Rock Elm, Ash, Hickory and Pecan. For lesser
bends: White Oak, Beech, Birch, Maple, and Red Gum. Green lumber is
easier to handle because of the moisture content. Chapelle says to
soak your lumber in water prior to steaming or boiling to prevent the
wood from drying out resulting in brittleness. There will soon be a
lot of White Ash available because of the Golden Ash Borer. Few of the
above woods have any particular resistence to decay. Locust has high
resistence to decay if heartwood. White Oak, Beech, Birch, Elm, Ash,
Maple etc have moderate to low resistence to decay and only heartwood.
There have been demonstrations of steam bent frames given in this
neighborhood (one of roughly 12"x12" cross section) and the wood was
local. I've seen the same demos at Bayfield, WI. If you want to build
a traditional hull you might want to consult Chapelle or another more
traditional text.
Bob Chamberland
England. Oak isn't the only wood you can use. Chapelle lists quite a
few. For extreme bends: Rock Elm, Ash, Hickory and Pecan. For lesser
bends: White Oak, Beech, Birch, Maple, and Red Gum. Green lumber is
easier to handle because of the moisture content. Chapelle says to
soak your lumber in water prior to steaming or boiling to prevent the
wood from drying out resulting in brittleness. There will soon be a
lot of White Ash available because of the Golden Ash Borer. Few of the
above woods have any particular resistence to decay. Locust has high
resistence to decay if heartwood. White Oak, Beech, Birch, Elm, Ash,
Maple etc have moderate to low resistence to decay and only heartwood.
There have been demonstrations of steam bent frames given in this
neighborhood (one of roughly 12"x12" cross section) and the wood was
local. I've seen the same demos at Bayfield, WI. If you want to build
a traditional hull you might want to consult Chapelle or another more
traditional text.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> Two weeks back, this group discussed
> boat building books. [Having re-re-re-
> read all the Bolger books, I am eager
> to find new reading in the same vein.]
>
> I am especially enjoying L.F. Herreshoff's
> Sensible Cruising Designs. But also,
> Rabl's and Buehler's Backyard Building books.
>
> A recurring theme in these books is the loss
> of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
> to deal with it. Similar with Phil Bolgers'
> boat designs. [His plywood box boats are his
> answer to the loss of the traditional wood
> problem.]
>
> In short, the *really* pretty boats, like
> L.F. Herreshoff's Rozinante, require steam
> bent frames, which ideally require white
> oak from New England. [now nearly unavailable]
>
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
>
> How have other people solved this problem?
--- chodges31711 wrote:
quickly match the unique shape of the curves of
planking. Fitting dozens of laminated frame to
each curve seems to be 'WAY' harder, and I fear
would defeat the purpose. [I am still thinking,
though.]
I wonder if cold molding a boat to Rozinante's
lines might be the best way to achieve a replica
with cheap materials California the year 2003?
<grin> I guess I need to read Reuel Parker's book
_The New Cold Molded Boatbuilder_...
> > How have other people solved this problem?The reason for steam bending is that you can
>
> Laminate with epoxy and strips whatever shape you
> want. - Charles
quickly match the unique shape of the curves of
planking. Fitting dozens of laminated frame to
each curve seems to be 'WAY' harder, and I fear
would defeat the purpose. [I am still thinking,
though.]
I wonder if cold molding a boat to Rozinante's
lines might be the best way to achieve a replica
with cheap materials California the year 2003?
<grin> I guess I need to read Reuel Parker's book
_The New Cold Molded Boatbuilder_...
> Please remind me, which design did PCBI think there are several candidates for that role. First is Burgandy
> make as his answer to Rozinante?
which is a keel sharpie that is closer to the Egret sharpie than
Rozinante from a functional point of view.
Then there is the Whaler Ketch for Peter Lane (If I remember the name
properlyl). The style is a less of a canoe, but it is a very pretty
boat in the traditional style.
Then there is a small canoe yawl in Small Boats. Quickstep? I always
thought that was a over-fussy design.
You could skip right to PCB's rendering of the the Albert Strange
cruiser Wenda.
But you were probably thinking of Burgandy.
Peter
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substituteLaminate with epoxy and strips whatever shape you want. - Charles
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
>
> How have other people solved this problem?
--- pvanderwaart wrote:
the essence of Rozinante is the
beauty that comes from simplicity.
In every regard, LFH chose to make
a simple, frugal and lasting boat.
He even leaves off the sliding hatch
to the cabin to save $150 in cost.
If I lived in New England, I guess I
would/could saw mill my own White Oak.
Here in California, I don't have that
choice.
Please remind me, which design did PCB
make as his answer to Rozinante?
> I think I deny the premise.[snip]
> There is plenty of white
> oak in New England ...the
> problem is finding the money
> PCB is known to be hostile toRozinante, is a work of art, and
> any modification of the original,
> however slight.)
the essence of Rozinante is the
beauty that comes from simplicity.
In every regard, LFH chose to make
a simple, frugal and lasting boat.
He even leaves off the sliding hatch
to the cabin to save $150 in cost.
If I lived in New England, I guess I
would/could saw mill my own White Oak.
Here in California, I don't have that
choice.
Please remind me, which design did PCB
make as his answer to Rozinante?
>A friend bought white oak wood molding at the recycle
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
>
> How have other people solved this problem?
>
center. The molding had come from a house that was
demolished for development. He recut the wood and
steam bent the frames. I saw a nice cedar strip canoe
that was cedar siding in a past life. Another boater
had very nice cedar seats that use to be a cedar
fence, He also had some rosewood on his boat that I
asked about. He bought a ugly rosewood coffee table
at a estate sale. It is now part of a beautiful
skiff.
Even Bill Gates bought some used timbers for his 60
million dollar mansion. So it is not about money it is
about good sense,
Start saving that good wood and find your local
builders recycle center.
Lon
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@...>
> A recurring theme in these books is the loss
> of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
> to deal with it.
Except for trophy yachts with hired crew to maintain the brightwork, most
vessels have been built with "available" wood. I visited a boat yard near
Puerto Peñata, Mexico, and was appalled at the way in which miscelleneous
scraps were cobbled together in the construction of a fishing boat (about
30' ???). A photo I was sent of boat building in Monserrat showed a similar
"make-do" attitude. The Egyptians maintained a vigorous commerce along the
Nile using reeds constrained with animal hides.
Could it be we're sometimes doing art rather than boat-building?
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
Make your frames with a form which constrains a mix of epoxy and Kevlar to
the appropriate shape? If the epoxy rib feathered out on the sides
(fore-and-aft), it would be superior since the stress raising edges of the
rib would be avoided.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
> A recurring theme in these books is the lossI think I deny the premise. There is plenty of white oak in New
> of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
> to deal with it.
England yet (including in my backyard), but getting your hands on it
is harder than wandering down to the nearest lumberyard. If you
search out a boatbuilding and/or specialty wood supplier, he will
have it. Then the problem is finding the money to pay for it.
I have a sort of feeling, myself, that the best planking woods are
harder to come by than the hardwoods for the backbone and frames.
The big reproductions seem to use the Central American hardwoods a
lot. Angelique or purple heart, or whatever they are called.
The more mundane alternatives to white oak are 1) red oak, and use
modern materials to deter rot, 2) laminated & glued frames of I'm not
sure what, 3) sawn frames from a softer wood, in which case the frame
dimensions will have to be increased. An Englishman would have used
Elm in the first place, I think.
Finally, you could find a similar design with a more modern
construction plan from say, Tony Dias or Joel White. Or use Doug
Hylan's construction plan for Red Head, a slightly modified
Rozinante. (I should not mention Red Head on the Bolger list because
PCB is known to be hostile to any modification of the original,
however slight.) The general idea would be a strip planked boat with
only a few web frames.
Peter
Howdy Bruce
epoxy? I would think the laminate would be as strong as the steam bent.
Good Luck
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
> -----Original Message-----Why couldn't you laminate the frames out of thins strips of oak, and
> Subject: [bolger] Steam bent frames.
>
> What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
> wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
> build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
> steam bend the frames?
>
epoxy? I would think the laminate would be as strong as the steam bent.
Good Luck
See Ya
Have Fun
Bruce
http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
Two weeks back, this group discussed
boat building books. [Having re-re-re-
read all the Bolger books, I am eager
to find new reading in the same vein.]
I am especially enjoying L.F. Herreshoff's
Sensible Cruising Designs. But also,
Rabl's and Buehler's Backyard Building books.
A recurring theme in these books is the loss
of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
to deal with it. Similar with Phil Bolgers'
boat designs. [His plywood box boats are his
answer to the loss of the traditional wood
problem.]
In short, the *really* pretty boats, like
L.F. Herreshoff's Rozinante, require steam
bent frames, which ideally require white
oak from New England. [now nearly unavailable]
What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
steam bend the frames?
How have other people solved this problem?
boat building books. [Having re-re-re-
read all the Bolger books, I am eager
to find new reading in the same vein.]
I am especially enjoying L.F. Herreshoff's
Sensible Cruising Designs. But also,
Rabl's and Buehler's Backyard Building books.
A recurring theme in these books is the loss
of traditional boatbuilding woods, and how
to deal with it. Similar with Phil Bolgers'
boat designs. [His plywood box boats are his
answer to the loss of the traditional wood
problem.]
In short, the *really* pretty boats, like
L.F. Herreshoff's Rozinante, require steam
bent frames, which ideally require white
oak from New England. [now nearly unavailable]
What is a dreamer to do, is there a substitute
wood for steam bent frames? I would love to
build a Rozinante, but how do I find wood to
steam bend the frames?
How have other people solved this problem?