Re: [bolger] Re: Caveat re;Plastic Smoothing method for Fiberglass.

Yep, they are noisy, and some of the dust gets through the filter.

Try one of those dustless sanding setups for drywall, i.e. bubble the dirty air through a bucket of water.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Caveat re;Plastic Smoothing method for Fiberglass.

> Actually the $200.00 dust collector I purchased has a lot more suction than
> my shop vac. Close to double. It's as noisy though and because of the high
> amount of vacuum, I have to have a blast gate partially open to keep the
> motor from working too hard. Especially when down sizing from the 3" hose
> to a 1" flexible hose on the sander.
>
> Of course my $49.00 shop vac. is not the most powerful.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Tyson" <tysond99@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Caveat re;Plastic Smoothing method for Fiberglass.
>
>
> > The advantage of my recently trised method of hooking up the vac directly
> to the sander has many advantages. You don't have to wear any of that funny
> garb for one. If you say "well sure but my sander doesn't have a vac dust
> collector" then buy a new one. A Dewalt like mine is only 60 bucks. Also,
> because the vac has so much more power than the stock dust collector, you
> actually sand more surface per paper because your always down on the bare
> surface of your project instead of riding over old sanding dust.
> > just a thought!
> > Don Tyson
> >
> >
> > I had to go and check mine, the output is close to ambient. You might
> > want to shake out your filter.
> >
> > HJ
> >
> > Roger Derby wrote:
> >
> > >Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.
> > >
> > >Roger
> > >derbyrm@...
> > >http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Harry James"
> > >
> > >
> > >>There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
> > >>Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
> > >>that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
> > >>a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
> > >>the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
> > >>the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
> > >>Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
> > >>$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
> > >>weather climes.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Actually the $200.00 dust collector I purchased has a lot more suction than
my shop vac. Close to double. It's as noisy though and because of the high
amount of vacuum, I have to have a blast gate partially open to keep the
motor from working too hard. Especially when down sizing from the 3" hose
to a 1" flexible hose on the sander.

Of course my $49.00 shop vac. is not the most powerful.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Tyson" <tysond99@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Caveat re;Plastic Smoothing method for Fiberglass.

> The advantage of my recently trised method of hooking up the vac directly
to the sander has many advantages. You don't have to wear any of that funny
garb for one. If you say "well sure but my sander doesn't have a vac dust
collector" then buy a new one. A Dewalt like mine is only 60 bucks. Also,
because the vac has so much more power than the stock dust collector, you
actually sand more surface per paper because your always down on the bare
surface of your project instead of riding over old sanding dust.
> just a thought!
> Don Tyson
>
>
> I had to go and check mine, the output is close to ambient. You might
> want to shake out your filter.
>
> HJ
>
> Roger Derby wrote:
>
> >Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.
> >
> >Roger
> >derbyrm@...
> >http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Harry James"
> >
> >
> >>There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
> >>Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
> >>that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
> >>a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
> >>the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
> >>the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
> >>Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
> >>$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
> >>weather climes.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

The advantage of my recently trised method of hooking up the vac directly to the sander has many advantages. You don't have to wear any of that funny garb for one. If you say "well sure but my sander doesn't have a vac dust collector" then buy a new one. A Dewalt like mine is only 60 bucks. Also, because the vac has so much more power than the stock dust collector, you actually sand more surface per paper because your always down on the bare surface of your project instead of riding over old sanding dust.
just a thought!
Don Tyson

I had to go and check mine, the output is close to ambient. You might
want to shake out your filter.

HJ

Roger Derby wrote:

>Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.
>
>Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harry James"
>
>
>>There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
>>Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
>>that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
>>a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
>>the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
>>the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
>>Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
>>$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
>>weather climes.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's a good suggestion.

The other possibility is that you didn't let yours run for ten minutes or
more. I don't think the typical shop vacuum is really designed for
continuous duty. In 1961 I used a Sears Craftsman to provide air for the
furnace's oil burner to keep the house warm in Schenectady while looking for
a part. It ran continuously for several days, but it was never the same
afterwards.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>

> I had to go and check mine, the output is close to ambient. You might
> want to shake out your filter.

> Roger Derby wrote:
> >Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.
> >
> >Roger

> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
> >>There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
> >>Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
> >>that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
> >>a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
> >>the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
> >>the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
> >>Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
> >>$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
> >>weather climes.

I had to go and check mine, the output is close to ambient. You might
want to shake out your filter.

HJ

Roger Derby wrote:

>Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.
>
>Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
>
>
>>There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
>>Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
>>that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
>>a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
>>the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
>>the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
>>Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
>>$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
>>weather climes.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

> Harry,
> This is a great idea for Jeff especially since the hot weather
> he experiences in summer sometimes draws him away from fun work and
> into his airconditioned home. Now,he can both reduce exposure to
> epoxy dust AND stay nice an' cool.....no more excuses now Jeff :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter lenihan
>

Thanks for all the hints but hopefully next summer I'll be assembling not
sanding. I have an insulated enclosed hanger that's 50x80 feet at my
disposal to assemble the Wyo. It'll also faces the North so the late summer
sun won't bake the interior like my west facing garage.

What a whimp I must be but when it gets over 100 degrees and no breeze, I
love my AC! Besides, once the ice cold brew is opened, I refuse to operate
power tools. One must have their priorities! Nice of everyone to be
concerned. :>)

Jeff

Kasco makes this system for about $600 and the power pack is stapped to your hip.

Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
Jeff

There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
weather climes.

HJ

Jeff wrote:

>>Another observation is that too often we use the paper for way
>>to long. That is, after it has lost its "bite". Your time is more
>>valuable then the price of paper so don't be shy about changing it
>>frequently! You'll work quicker,better and enjoy the results sooner
>>with less frustration :-)
>>
>>
>
>This is a big one! I can't tell you how many times I've stopped and realize
>I've been sanding the same spot to long with worn out paper. I replace it
>and feel foolish for wasting the last few minutes with trashed out sand
>paper.
>
>Another thing, good quality sand paper last longer, withstands the heat
>better and is a better value over all.
>
>By the way, I've become somewhat allergic to the epoxy dust when sanding. I
>can get the liquid form on me without a reaction but sanding gives me real
>bad hay fever type symptoms even with a good dust mask. Since I still have a
>1/3 of a Wyo to build, I purchased a portable dust collector rated at 800
>CFM. It's amazing how much cleaner things stay, including my dust mask and
>probably my lungs. It was worth the $200.00 spent and I should have done it
>earlier.
>
>Very little sneezing, wheezing, and watery eyes, not to mention no more
>constant vacuuming to keep some semblance of cleanliness in the garage.
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>.
>
>
>

Huh? The air coming out the back of my shop vac is HOT.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
>
> There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
> Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
> that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
> a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
> the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
> the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
> Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
> $50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
> weather climes.

>>This is a big one! I can't tell you how many times I've stopped and realize
>>I've been sanding the same spot to long with worn out paper. I replace it
>>and feel foolish for wasting the last few minutes with trashed out sand
>>paper.

I change the paper pretty frequently but save the used disks, or some
anyway, for (touch-up) hand sanding of spots or crannies and curves.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
This would be a real good setup in hot
> weather climes.
>
> HJ

Harry,
This is a great idea for Jeff especially since the hot weather
he experiences in summer sometimes draws him away from fun work and
into his airconditioned home. Now,he can both reduce exposure to
epoxy dust AND stay nice an' cool.....no more excuses now Jeff :-)

Sincerely,

Peter lenihan

Jeff

There was a real good idea on the multihull group from member in
Australia. He got one of those total barrier hazardous material suits
that have the hood and plugged in the the output from his shop vac with
a real long hose hooked up with an adapter to the back of the suit, set
the shopvac out side the shop and went to work. Kept the sweat down and
the air he was breathing pure though I suspect he looked like the
Pillsbury dough boy in action. I priced one of those suits at less than
$50, but have lost the link. This would be a real good setup in hot
weather climes.

HJ

Jeff wrote:

>>Another observation is that too often we use the paper for way
>>to long. That is, after it has lost its "bite". Your time is more
>>valuable then the price of paper so don't be shy about changing it
>>frequently! You'll work quicker,better and enjoy the results sooner
>>with less frustration :-)
>>
>>
>
>This is a big one! I can't tell you how many times I've stopped and realize
>I've been sanding the same spot to long with worn out paper. I replace it
>and feel foolish for wasting the last few minutes with trashed out sand
>paper.
>
>Another thing, good quality sand paper last longer, withstands the heat
>better and is a better value over all.
>
>By the way, I've become somewhat allergic to the epoxy dust when sanding. I
>can get the liquid form on me without a reaction but sanding gives me real
>bad hay fever type symptoms even with a good dust mask. Since I still have a
>1/3 of a Wyo to build, I purchased a portable dust collector rated at 800
>CFM. It's amazing how much cleaner things stay, including my dust mask and
>probably my lungs. It was worth the $200.00 spent and I should have done it
>earlier.
>
>Very little sneezing, wheezing, and watery eyes, not to mention no more
>constant vacuuming to keep some semblance of cleanliness in the garage.
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>.
>
>
>

I love it when someone ventures where others fear to tread.

I'm betting that this will go smoother than some think.

GarthAB wrote:

> Peter --
>
> You're right about the potential epoxy starvation or squeeze-out, and
> I hope to master that balance by, oh, the third or fouth panel of my
> five-panel boat.
>
> I figure if you starve it and it's obvious in a trial peel-back while
> the epoxy is still green, you could always peel the whole film thing
> up, paint on another layer of epoxy, and go again. Works in theory at
> least.
>
> And if you put on too much, you just squeeze it out at the edges onto
> the sheet plastic underlying the whole operation, and trim the messy
> edge off when green.
>
> For sanding I'm planning to get all my panels preglassed smooth and
> then in one day rent a floor sander with fine paper and sand them all
> while flat. Sounds crazy -- but what the heck? I've sanded a few
> floors in my day, and eventually learned how not to leave enormous
> gouges in them.
>
> Then I'll still have smoothing and sanding to do where I join the
> panels onto the boat, but I find that much less daunting.
>
> OK -- it's all crazy theory from me, soon to be turned into practice,
> for better or for worse. I actually finished all my prep work -- got
> the old barn cleaned out (like the Augean stables) and wired it with
> lights. Got the plywood, lumber, epoxy, and glass on site. Tonight,
> glory be, I actually set pencil to wood and drew out all the
> measurements for the side panels. There's no joy quite like starting
> a new boat.
>
> With decent weather, a kind wife, and a little let-up in the insanity
> of my job, I hope to have something cut out and glassed soon.
>
> All best,
> Garth
>
>
>

Peter, I kind of almost completely agree with your asertion that.........................oops...forgot what I was saying.

Anyhow, today I sanded all day. I put floor leveling compound all over my kitchen yesterday and sanded the dusty stuff off today. I created zero dust in the house because I ducktaped the noozle of my big shopvac to the dust collector adapter of my dewalt randon orbit sander. I bet this would work well for epoxy to.
All this plastic laminate stuff is very interesting but on hulls which you want a faired and then perfectly glazed for a gloss finish I don't see where your saving much work. We'll see.
Don

Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:
Bolgerados,

First,let me say that I do like the slick smooth finish that
can be attained with this method.
However, a few nasty thoughts keep getting in my way each
time I think of giving it a try.
First off; that very slick and smooth surface has to be
sanded thoroughly if we are going to put paint,varnish or more
epoxy/glass on that surface. Based on my own observations,a quick
lick with a scotchbrite pad may be just barely enough to allow
the"next coat" to stick but only for a while.Long term solid adhesion
requires a"thorough" sanding.
Next comes experience; and unless you have enough of it to
measure just the right amount of epoxy, two unwanted events may occur
1) You'll mix too big a batch and end up wasting a lot of
expensive goo(and have to sand off the excess) or,
2) You will mix too little a batch,have epoxy starvation
either on the bare wood or the fiberglass and end up having to sand
anyway........
A final bugaboo I have is that unless you get it just right
all the way from measuring the epoxy needed to making absolutely sure
that the plastic film is"perfectly" flat,you will telegraph the
imperfections created by less then a perfect plastic film onto the
epoxy surface.
In short,you still do not escape the sometimes nasty but
always necessary step of sanding,which I believe in part,is one of
this techniques major attractions(no sanding,that is).
And all of that runs somewhat contrary to everything I ever
read about boatbuilding and finishing. If you want a truly
outstanding finish to show off your pride and joy,then you are going
to have to follow closely the manufacturers instructions found on
your favorite cosmetics,be it paint or varnish. And,9 out of 10
dentist will tell you that preparation is everything and that
includes..........ta da........sanding:-)
What makes sanding almost fun,is having good "tools" for the
job.Your sandpaper,in particular,should be the best stuff you can
find.Granted,a nice sander helps,but even the best sander in the
world will just break your heart if you sand with cheapo
paper.Another observation is that too often we use the paper for way
to long.That is,after it has lost its "bite". Your time is more
valuable then the price of paper so don't be shy about changing it
frequently! You'll work quicker,better and enjoy the results sooner
with less frustration :-)

Anyhooo.........don't want this to be too long.It's just my
2 cents. Anyone else share these thoughts or am I just slowing losing
it up here along the shores of the mighty St.Lawrence?

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter --

You're right about the potential epoxy starvation or squeeze-out, and
I hope to master that balance by, oh, the third or fouth panel of my
five-panel boat.

I figure if you starve it and it's obvious in a trial peel-back while
the epoxy is still green, you could always peel the whole film thing
up, paint on another layer of epoxy, and go again. Works in theory at
least.

And if you put on too much, you just squeeze it out at the edges onto
the sheet plastic underlying the whole operation, and trim the messy
edge off when green.

For sanding I'm planning to get all my panels preglassed smooth and
then in one day rent a floor sander with fine paper and sand them all
while flat. Sounds crazy -- but what the heck? I've sanded a few
floors in my day, and eventually learned how not to leave enormous
gouges in them.

Then I'll still have smoothing and sanding to do where I join the
panels onto the boat, but I find that much less daunting.

OK -- it's all crazy theory from me, soon to be turned into practice,
for better or for worse. I actually finished all my prep work -- got
the old barn cleaned out (like the Augean stables) and wired it with
lights. Got the plywood, lumber, epoxy, and glass on site. Tonight,
glory be, I actually set pencil to wood and drew out all the
measurements for the side panels. There's no joy quite like starting
a new boat.

With decent weather, a kind wife, and a little let-up in the insanity
of my job, I hope to have something cut out and glassed soon.

All best,
Garth

>Another observation is that too often we use the paper for way
> to long.That is,after it has lost its "bite". Your time is more
> valuable then the price of paper so don't be shy about changing it
> frequently! You'll work quicker,better and enjoy the results sooner
> with less frustration :-)

This is a big one! I can't tell you how many times I've stopped and realize
I've been sanding the same spot to long with worn out paper. I replace it
and feel foolish for wasting the last few minutes with trashed out sand
paper.

Another thing, good quality sand paper last longer, withstands the heat
better and is a better value over all.

By the way, I've become somewhat allergic to the epoxy dust when sanding. I
can get the liquid form on me without a reaction but sanding gives me real
bad hay fever type symptoms even with a good dust mask. Since I still have a
1/3 of a Wyo to build, I purchased a portable dust collector rated at 800
CFM. It's amazing how much cleaner things stay, including my dust mask and
probably my lungs. It was worth the $200.00 spent and I should have done it
earlier.

Very little sneezing, wheezing, and watery eyes, not to mention no more
constant vacuuming to keep some semblance of cleanliness in the garage.

Jeff

Bolgerados,

First,let me say that I do like the slick smooth finish that
can be attained with this method.
However, a few nasty thoughts keep getting in my way each
time I think of giving it a try.
First off; that very slick and smooth surface has to be
sanded thoroughly if we are going to put paint,varnish or more
epoxy/glass on that surface. Based on my own observations,a quick
lick with a scotchbrite pad may be just barely enough to allow
the"next coat" to stick but only for a while.Long term solid adhesion
requires a"thorough" sanding.
Next comes experience; and unless you have enough of it to
measure just the right amount of epoxy, two unwanted events may occur
1) You'll mix too big a batch and end up wasting a lot of
expensive goo(and have to sand off the excess) or,
2) You will mix too little a batch,have epoxy starvation
either on the bare wood or the fiberglass and end up having to sand
anyway........
A final bugaboo I have is that unless you get it just right
all the way from measuring the epoxy needed to making absolutely sure
that the plastic film is"perfectly" flat,you will telegraph the
imperfections created by less then a perfect plastic film onto the
epoxy surface.
In short,you still do not escape the sometimes nasty but
always necessary step of sanding,which I believe in part,is one of
this techniques major attractions(no sanding,that is).
And all of that runs somewhat contrary to everything I ever
read about boatbuilding and finishing. If you want a truly
outstanding finish to show off your pride and joy,then you are going
to have to follow closely the manufacturers instructions found on
your favorite cosmetics,be it paint or varnish. And,9 out of 10
dentist will tell you that preparation is everything and that
includes..........ta da........sanding:-)
What makes sanding almost fun,is having good "tools" for the
job.Your sandpaper,in particular,should be the best stuff you can
find.Granted,a nice sander helps,but even the best sander in the
world will just break your heart if you sand with cheapo
paper.Another observation is that too often we use the paper for way
to long.That is,after it has lost its "bite". Your time is more
valuable then the price of paper so don't be shy about changing it
frequently! You'll work quicker,better and enjoy the results sooner
with less frustration :-)

Anyhooo.........don't want this to be too long.It's just my
2 cents. Anyone else share these thoughts or am I just slowing losing
it up here along the shores of the mighty St.Lawrence?

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

Garth

The roller that is in the Duckworks article looks like the tool used for
rolling out formica or veneer over contact cement. Hard rubber, about 4"
long, you can put down a lot of pressure per square in. Thanks for being
the Guinea pig, I am following this subject with intense interest. I
like John's polished copper bottom, just think a bunch of Revereware
boats. Maybe that will jack up the resale value.

HJ

GarthAB wrote:

>>The best sheeting comes from a
>>fabric store or the sewing section at Wal-Mart. They sell it from
>>rolls of varying widths that are not folded so you can buy it
>>
>>
>almost
>
>
>>like fiberglass.
>>
>>
>
>
>Hi John --
>
>Very interesting that you can get good smooth results with just rolls
>of mass-market plastic sheeting. I'd guess that stuff is 6 mil? My
>few attempts to use that in making fiberglass butt joints usually
>lead to wrinkles imprinting in the epoxy. Rolling it out must be the
>key. I'm going to get a rolling pin -- like you use for pie dough;
>and maybe experiment with larger rollers made from some 4" PVC pipe I
>have around here.
>
> John Blazy in his Duckworks article recommends 20 to 30 mil
>material, which is much stiffer than roll plastic sheeting and won't
>have any wrinkles to battle. I wonder how much difference there is in
>the final finish between the readily accessible stuff you mention,
>and the high-end stuff John B. uses?
>
>Well, I'm in deep now, having purchased a roll of 20 mil Lexan. I'll
>report on results soon, I hope. Battling the clock -- too much job-
>work to do, parenting to do, etc., all while winter creeps up on me.
>
>All best,
>Garth
>
>
>
>

> but the problem I have encountered using a solid press is
> entrapped leftover air bubbles..

I can not argue with your experience.

Woods only uses the solid table. He may vacuum bag, or he may just
roll out the laminate, I don't remember. By the way, he uses this
technique for deep V models, so it is basically two lay-ups per hull.
It has the advantage that the dimensions are not limited by plywood
widths. He claims it is faster than ply construction because the
outer surface comes from the table with the final finish. Only a
couple of inches around the edges for taped connections, plus
fastenings, need additional finishing.

Peter

Peter,

I'm sure the pros have worked it out, and of course vacuum bagging would
do it, but the problem I have encountered using a solid press is
entrapped leftover air bubbles.. The thicker clear plastic promises to
be reusable, stiff enough to be wrinkle free, yet clear so with a
roller air can be chased out.... At least that's what the current hype
is about. I haven't tried it yet. Hoping for good reports from John and
Garth soon.....

Rick-
Soon to be placing a plywood order. --- I'm just waiting a bit longer to
make sure plywood prices hit an all time high price :)

pvanderwaart wrote:

>
> I suspect that if one is a recidivist plywood boatbuilder who uses
> taped butt joints it would be worthwhile to get a couple pieces thick
> plywood (3/4" to 1") with Formica (or other laminate) surfaces. A
> local kitchen shop will probably give you some scraps for free, and
> at any rate, you don't need much. If starting from scratch, I would
> make 2 2'x4' pieces. Then you sandwich your layup between them for
> smooth surfaces on both sides. Use a release agent or the whole thing
> will be glued together.
>
> Richard Woods has a building method that uses large Formica covered
> tables on which fiberglass is layed up. When set, it is cut to shape
> and screwed/guled to "timbre" framing with the glossy side out.
>
> Peter
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can see where thr plasric would work well on the
flat areas how do you handle the chine and change to
vertical? Does the plastic bunch up at the chine?
Lon
--- John Cupp <john@...> wrote:

> I have been experimenting with using polypropylene
> plastic sheeting
> to cover the fiberglass when I wet it out. Do not
> use plastic
> sheeting that has been folded like they sell for
> drop cloth use. I
> tried it and got miserable results. The best
> sheeting comes from a
> fabric store or the sewing section at Wal-Mart.
> They sell it from
> rolls of varying widths that are not folded so you
> can buy it almost
> like fiberglass.
>
> I have been writing an article for Duckworks about a
> tool that
> simplifies placing plywood sheets together. It will
> be posted soon
> but I am building a Brick using the plastic sheeting
> method. Using
> Raka epoxy and plastic sheet from a roll that hasn't
> been folded I
> have been able to make some of the smoothest
> glassing jobs to date.
> The best part is that it is just one shot and no
> going back and
> smoothing and sanding forever. I also just for the
> hell of it put
> copper into the bottom glass and it looks like a
> polished copper
> reflector.
>
> When I am done I will post pictures of my Copper
> Brick. I am also
> putting UHMW on the two runners on the bottom for
> sliding up rocky
> beaches. I work when I can because I still haven't
> had my surgery
> but writing for Duckworks and building something
> small for now makes
> me feel a lot better. So try the unfolded plastic
> sheeting and make
> sure you get all the bubbles out. This method
> reduces the epoxy
> curing smell at the same time. That's all for now.
>
> John Cupp
>
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

I agree about the rolling, although I'm thinking (very dangerous
habit) that a roller with some give might be better. Something like
you see used in inking woodblocks ?????

Keep us posted on your results....

Rick-

> Rolling it out must be the
> key. I'm going to get a rolling pin -- like you use for pie dough;
> and maybe experiment with larger rollers made from some 4" PVC pipe
>
> All best,
> Garth

John,

What thickness plastic ?

Rick-

John Cupp wrote:

> I have been experimenting with using polypropylene plastic sheeting
> to cover the fiberglass when I wet it out.

I suspect that if one is a recidivist plywood boatbuilder who uses
taped butt joints it would be worthwhile to get a couple pieces thick
plywood (3/4" to 1") with Formica (or other laminate) surfaces. A
local kitchen shop will probably give you some scraps for free, and
at any rate, you don't need much. If starting from scratch, I would
make 2 2'x4' pieces. Then you sandwich your layup between them for
smooth surfaces on both sides. Use a release agent or the whole thing
will be glued together.

Richard Woods has a building method that uses large Formica covered
tables on which fiberglass is layed up. When set, it is cut to shape
and screwed/guled to "timbre" framing with the glossy side out.

Peter

> The best sheeting comes from a
> fabric store or the sewing section at Wal-Mart. They sell it from
> rolls of varying widths that are not folded so you can buy it

almost

> like fiberglass.

Hi John --

Very interesting that you can get good smooth results with just rolls
of mass-market plastic sheeting. I'd guess that stuff is 6 mil? My
few attempts to use that in making fiberglass butt joints usually
lead to wrinkles imprinting in the epoxy. Rolling it out must be the
key. I'm going to get a rolling pin -- like you use for pie dough;
and maybe experiment with larger rollers made from some 4" PVC pipe I
have around here.

John Blazy in his Duckworks article recommends 20 to 30 mil
material, which is much stiffer than roll plastic sheeting and won't
have any wrinkles to battle. I wonder how much difference there is in
the final finish between the readily accessible stuff you mention,
and the high-end stuff John B. uses?

Well, I'm in deep now, having purchased a roll of 20 mil Lexan. I'll
report on results soon, I hope. Battling the clock -- too much job-
work to do, parenting to do, etc., all while winter creeps up on me.

All best,
Garth

I have been experimenting with using polypropylene plastic sheeting
to cover the fiberglass when I wet it out. Do not use plastic
sheeting that has been folded like they sell for drop cloth use. I
tried it and got miserable results. The best sheeting comes from a
fabric store or the sewing section at Wal-Mart. They sell it from
rolls of varying widths that are not folded so you can buy it almost
like fiberglass.

I have been writing an article for Duckworks about a tool that
simplifies placing plywood sheets together. It will be posted soon
but I am building a Brick using the plastic sheeting method. Using
Raka epoxy and plastic sheet from a roll that hasn't been folded I
have been able to make some of the smoothest glassing jobs to date.
The best part is that it is just one shot and no going back and
smoothing and sanding forever. I also just for the hell of it put
copper into the bottom glass and it looks like a polished copper
reflector.

When I am done I will post pictures of my Copper Brick. I am also
putting UHMW on the two runners on the bottom for sliding up rocky
beaches. I work when I can because I still haven't had my surgery
but writing for Duckworks and building something small for now makes
me feel a lot better. So try the unfolded plastic sheeting and make
sure you get all the bubbles out. This method reduces the epoxy
curing smell at the same time. That's all for now.

John Cupp