Re: [bolger] Re: Peter L: About Alisa
Wow! Big boat , Huh? Like to see is roaring up the Platte in spring flood.
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:> Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.
www.4dw.net/cosailor
Jeff
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w
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:> Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.
www.4dw.net/cosailor
Jeff
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
w
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.www.4dw.net/cosailor
Jeff
Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.
Jeff, did you say yor building a Wyoming?
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
just not sure enough to know what so I just use the 24 hour time period to
be save.
I would image that the manufacturer of the Epoxy would have that info
available.
Jeff
Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff, did you say yor building a Wyoming?
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
> Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end oftheworking temp (50 f).
>I'm sure that is true, the colder it gets the longer the time to wait. I'm
just not sure enough to know what so I just use the 24 hour time period to
be save.
I would image that the manufacturer of the Epoxy would have that info
available.
Jeff
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end oftheworking temp (50 f).
>I'm sure that is true, the colder it gets the longer the time to wait. I'm
just not sure enough to know what so I just use the 24 hour time period to
be save.
I would image that the manufacturer of the Epoxy would have that info
available.
Jeff
Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end of theworking temp (50 f).
< do it within 24 hours to get a chemical
bond or sand it very, very well. Use something like 80 - 100 grit and
resurface the entire area so the new epoxy can get a mechanical bond.
I would also wash with medium amonia sollution to remove any wax (seen or unseen, its there). I the glue set for more than nine or ten days I would acetone wash the glue before grinding and after grinding as this will ensure a good mechanical bond.
inches either side of the chine, laid on the 3 layers of glass tape, then
faired out and sanded again. Any place that I did not originally sand far
enough away from the chine and it got coated with new epoxy could be chipped
and peeled easily screwdriver tapped lightly with a hammer.
10/4
chine. It would probably start seeping slowly.
Yup!
<My point is that while we are building, a lot of times days or weeks pass
before we get back to our project. Picking up where we left off with out
good surface prep can have negative effects in the future. I can think of
several places this is very likely to happen, all with possible leakage
problems, especially chines and centerboard trunks.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
< do it within 24 hours to get a chemical
bond or sand it very, very well. Use something like 80 - 100 grit and
resurface the entire area so the new epoxy can get a mechanical bond.
I would also wash with medium amonia sollution to remove any wax (seen or unseen, its there). I the glue set for more than nine or ten days I would acetone wash the glue before grinding and after grinding as this will ensure a good mechanical bond.
> My example is very recent. Last year I started Wyoming cockpit section, twoweeks ago I finally got around to doing the chines. I sanded well about 4
inches either side of the chine, laid on the 3 layers of glass tape, then
faired out and sanded again. Any place that I did not originally sand far
enough away from the chine and it got coated with new epoxy could be chipped
and peeled easily screwdriver tapped lightly with a hammer.
10/4
> Without goodprep sanding, imagine what could happen after flexing or a good bump to the
chine. It would probably start seeping slowly.
Yup!
<My point is that while we are building, a lot of times days or weeks pass
before we get back to our project. Picking up where we left off with out
good surface prep can have negative effects in the future. I can think of
several places this is very likely to happen, all with possible leakage
problems, especially chines and centerboard trunks.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in theOne step that cannot be skipped or done halfway. Anyplace you are going to
> wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
> expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
> water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
> coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
> Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
> hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
> those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
> way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
> skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
> high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
> and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
lay down epoxy on top of epoxy, do it within 24 hours to get a chemical
bond or sand it very, very well. Use something like 80 - 100 grit and
resurface the entire area so the new epoxy can get a mechanical bond.
My example is very recent. Last year I started Wyoming cockpit section, two
weeks ago I finally got around to doing the chines. I sanded well about 4
inches either side of the chine, laid on the 3 layers of glass tape, then
faired out and sanded again. Any place that I did not originally sand far
enough away from the chine and it got coated with new epoxy could be chipped
and peeled easily screwdriver tapped lightly with a hammer. Without good
prep sanding, imagine what could happen after flexing or a good bump to the
chine. It would probably start seeping slowly.
Needless to say, I sanded a lot of it away and re-faired the joint.
My point is that while we are building, a lot of times days or weeks pass
before we get back to our project. Picking up where we left off with out
good surface prep can have negative effects in the future. I can think of
several places this is very likely to happen, all with possible leakage
problems, especially chines and centerboard trunks.
Jeff
Thanks Peter(s),
I agree with all points.
The biggest culprit is simply the plain old leaks in the bilgeboard
cases probably caused, as you say, by joint starvation and temperature
cycling. The second biggest culprit was the damage done to the chines
by the slings and blocks in the boat yard (remeber the slighly convex
bottom caused by assembling the boat upside down).
Frank
Landenbger, PA
I agree with all points.
The biggest culprit is simply the plain old leaks in the bilgeboard
cases probably caused, as you say, by joint starvation and temperature
cycling. The second biggest culprit was the damage done to the chines
by the slings and blocks in the boat yard (remeber the slighly convex
bottom caused by assembling the boat upside down).
Frank
Landenbger, PA
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any
> insight
> > about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?
> >
> > Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel
> free
> > to offer their own answers.)
>
> Peter V.,
> "Big boat construction expert"?.....it's only my first big
> boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real experts
> will chime in too........!!!
> It's rather difficult to offer a sound diagnostic to Franks'
> grief with his lovely AS-29 ALISA without actually seeing the
> boat...however his pictures of the"problem" are suggestive.
> Right off the top,and I do hate to run this down anyones
> throat, I suspect/fear that alot of the grief that has manifested
> itself on ALISA could have been avoided had the original builder
> applied the"hollowing" technique which I have described in the past
> and posted rough sketches of in the files section. It won't help
> Frank any to hear about this but here goes;
> The diligent first builder probably did a first class job of
> getting all his"joints" well smeared with epoxy and then tightened
> down nice and hard on the fastenings.The resulting joint was no doubt
> sound. Unfortunately,if the out side treatment lacked in anyway a
> proper sealing of the wood to inhibit moisture penetration,then some
> moisture did get into the wood.Not much,but some nevertheless.Cycling
> through our Canadian winters combined with any swelling of the wood
> (especially framing stock like the chine logs) from moisture
> absorbtion easily over came the original integrity of the joints due
> essentially to glue starvation(wouldn't happen with the "hollowing
> technique).
> Added to this,perhaps,was a less then thorough
> preparation/sanding of sub-assemblies as was found up forward at the
> base of the main tabernacle( if I remember correctly).
> Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
> wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
> expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
> water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
> coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
> A number of remedies are available for Frank's boat but all
> depend on how much time/effort/money Frank wants to use to make her
> sound once again.
> Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
> hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
> those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
> way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
> skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
> high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
> and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
> So that's my humble take on it and is offered from the
> perspective of a boat subjected to temperature extremes such as those
> found in Eastern Canada.Lucky devils way to the South of me may tell
> me where to stuff it :-).Also, I do realize that this may not apply
> to smaller,trailerable,dry-sailed boats,especially if all one seeks
> is a quick-n-dirty craft to play on the water with for the least $$$
> possible. For bigger boats however,which may spend an entire season
> sitting in the water,I cannot help but conclude that for all the
> time/effort and sacrifice needed to see one of these through till the
> end along with a reasonable amount of expected use/lifetime, it
> hardly makes any sense to skimp.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter"always ready to offer tons of free advice"Lenihan,who eagerly
> looks forward to hearing some real experts shedding some light into a
> dark hole I may have missed,from along the St.Lawrence.......
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
"Big boat construction expert"?.....it's only my first big
boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real experts
will chime in too........!!!
It's rather difficult to offer a sound diagnostic to Franks'
grief with his lovely AS-29 ALISA without actually seeing the
boat...however his pictures of the"problem" are suggestive.
Right off the top,and I do hate to run this down anyones
throat, I suspect/fear that alot of the grief that has manifested
itself on ALISA could have been avoided had the original builder
applied the"hollowing" technique which I have described in the past
and posted rough sketches of in the files section. It won't help
Frank any to hear about this but here goes;
The diligent first builder probably did a first class job of
getting all his"joints" well smeared with epoxy and then tightened
down nice and hard on the fastenings.The resulting joint was no doubt
sound. Unfortunately,if the out side treatment lacked in anyway a
proper sealing of the wood to inhibit moisture penetration,then some
moisture did get into the wood.Not much,but some nevertheless.Cycling
through our Canadian winters combined with any swelling of the wood
(especially framing stock like the chine logs) from moisture
absorbtion easily over came the original integrity of the joints due
essentially to glue starvation(wouldn't happen with the "hollowing
technique).
Added to this,perhaps,was a less then thorough
preparation/sanding of sub-assemblies as was found up forward at the
base of the main tabernacle( if I remember correctly).
Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
A number of remedies are available for Frank's boat but all
depend on how much time/effort/money Frank wants to use to make her
sound once again.
Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
So that's my humble take on it and is offered from the
perspective of a boat subjected to temperature extremes such as those
found in Eastern Canada.Lucky devils way to the South of me may tell
me where to stuff it :-).Also, I do realize that this may not apply
to smaller,trailerable,dry-sailed boats,especially if all one seeks
is a quick-n-dirty craft to play on the water with for the least $$$
possible. For bigger boats however,which may spend an entire season
sitting in the water,I cannot help but conclude that for all the
time/effort and sacrifice needed to see one of these through till the
end along with a reasonable amount of expected use/lifetime, it
hardly makes any sense to skimp.
Sincerely,
Peter"always ready to offer tons of free advice"Lenihan,who eagerly
looks forward to hearing some real experts shedding some light into a
dark hole I may have missed,from along the St.Lawrence.......
> Peter,insight
>
> As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any
> about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?free
>
> Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel
> to offer their own answers.)Peter V.,
"Big boat construction expert"?.....it's only my first big
boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real experts
will chime in too........!!!
It's rather difficult to offer a sound diagnostic to Franks'
grief with his lovely AS-29 ALISA without actually seeing the
boat...however his pictures of the"problem" are suggestive.
Right off the top,and I do hate to run this down anyones
throat, I suspect/fear that alot of the grief that has manifested
itself on ALISA could have been avoided had the original builder
applied the"hollowing" technique which I have described in the past
and posted rough sketches of in the files section. It won't help
Frank any to hear about this but here goes;
The diligent first builder probably did a first class job of
getting all his"joints" well smeared with epoxy and then tightened
down nice and hard on the fastenings.The resulting joint was no doubt
sound. Unfortunately,if the out side treatment lacked in anyway a
proper sealing of the wood to inhibit moisture penetration,then some
moisture did get into the wood.Not much,but some nevertheless.Cycling
through our Canadian winters combined with any swelling of the wood
(especially framing stock like the chine logs) from moisture
absorbtion easily over came the original integrity of the joints due
essentially to glue starvation(wouldn't happen with the "hollowing
technique).
Added to this,perhaps,was a less then thorough
preparation/sanding of sub-assemblies as was found up forward at the
base of the main tabernacle( if I remember correctly).
Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
A number of remedies are available for Frank's boat but all
depend on how much time/effort/money Frank wants to use to make her
sound once again.
Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
So that's my humble take on it and is offered from the
perspective of a boat subjected to temperature extremes such as those
found in Eastern Canada.Lucky devils way to the South of me may tell
me where to stuff it :-).Also, I do realize that this may not apply
to smaller,trailerable,dry-sailed boats,especially if all one seeks
is a quick-n-dirty craft to play on the water with for the least $$$
possible. For bigger boats however,which may spend an entire season
sitting in the water,I cannot help but conclude that for all the
time/effort and sacrifice needed to see one of these through till the
end along with a reasonable amount of expected use/lifetime, it
hardly makes any sense to skimp.
Sincerely,
Peter"always ready to offer tons of free advice"Lenihan,who eagerly
looks forward to hearing some real experts shedding some light into a
dark hole I may have missed,from along the St.Lawrence.......
Peter,
As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any insight
about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?
Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel free
to offer their own answers.)
As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any insight
about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?
Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel free
to offer their own answers.)