Re: Boat Economics
> The used daysailer market is conceptually veryI agree, with the exception of emphasis. I would say that the above
> limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.
20' market is more uniform in boat type than is the market for
smaller boats. Most of the variety is the legacy of 40 years of
design development, Alberg through Farr. Yawls and schooners are all
but extinct, and ketches seem to be rarer every year (not that I want
a ketch, you understand). Aside from a few English imports, there's
not a gaffer to be had, except for the 20-25' Cape Cod cats.
At just about every point in the last quarter century, there has been
one firm or another producing a cat ketch in cruising boat size, but
I don't know of one in the business right now.
There IS variety of course. Island Packet and J-boats are not really
in competition with each other, and neither are Pacific Seacraft and
Catalina.
Peter
Exactly.
When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however,
that convinced me to buy.
1) I would be getting a unique boat.
2) I enjoy building things more than sailing boats
3) It takes me 15 minute to go from arriving at the boat ramp to sailing away.
4) Since I built it, there is NOTHING on the boat I can't fix.
5) Very few FG boats in the 20ft range can be beached.
That said, the economics of the older fiberglass boats is still attractive. Watch out for delaminated decking, and rotting plywood
bulkheads.
When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however,
that convinced me to buy.
1) I would be getting a unique boat.
2) I enjoy building things more than sailing boats
3) It takes me 15 minute to go from arriving at the boat ramp to sailing away.
4) Since I built it, there is NOTHING on the boat I can't fix.
5) Very few FG boats in the 20ft range can be beached.
That said, the economics of the older fiberglass boats is still attractive. Watch out for delaminated decking, and rotting plywood
bulkheads.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
>> another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
> of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
> considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
> boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
> overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
> trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
> you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
>another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreamingAll correct, however, the used daysailer market is conceptually very
>of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
>considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
>boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
>overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
>trailer!)
limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.
So if you want something different you've gotta build one. If you
want a Birdwatcher, you'll have to build one.
If you want a power sharpie, you'll have to build one. If you want a
sailing canoe, you MIGHT have to build one (there are some commercial
hulls which can be adapted). If you want a scow (not racing scow,
garvey or scow shaped boat) you'll have to build one.
And so on.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
I must agree with Jim Goeckermann about older factory boats being a great
deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for
$2800.00. The boat is in great condition and fully equipped. I took a
weeklong cruise to the San Juan Islands with the local San Juan club this
summer and I raced with the fleet this past Saturday. If I were building
from scratch it would be another year or two before I could sail. I still
have the desire to build a small cruising boat. Right know I am leaning
towards a Bolger Micro Navigator. The problem is my desires keep changing.
I have plans at home for Steve Redmond's Elver, Glen-L's banks dory Lucky
Pierre, the Tugboat Bufflehead by Tom MacNaughton and at least a couple of
more I'd have to dig out of my filing cabinet. I love dreaming about
building boats, but the reality is I am really sailing my old Fiberglas San
Juan 21 and enjoying every minute of it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Goeckermann [mailto:jim@...]
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:52 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
"gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
racehttp://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
<http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/>
These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
last summer:http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/<http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/>
On the other hand, the
smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for
$2800.00. The boat is in great condition and fully equipped. I took a
weeklong cruise to the San Juan Islands with the local San Juan club this
summer and I raced with the fleet this past Saturday. If I were building
from scratch it would be another year or two before I could sail. I still
have the desire to build a small cruising boat. Right know I am leaning
towards a Bolger Micro Navigator. The problem is my desires keep changing.
I have plans at home for Steve Redmond's Elver, Glen-L's banks dory Lucky
Pierre, the Tugboat Bufflehead by Tom MacNaughton and at least a couple of
more I'd have to dig out of my filing cabinet. I love dreaming about
building boats, but the reality is I am really sailing my old Fiberglas San
Juan 21 and enjoying every minute of it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Goeckermann [mailto:jim@...]
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:52 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
"gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
racehttp://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
<http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/>
These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
last summer:http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/<http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/>
On the other hand, the
smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=256694.4002236.5216697.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050657
91:HM/A=1784493/R=0/id=noscript/SIG=11q7p9e7k/*http://webevents.yahoo.com/un
iversal/intolerablecruelty/>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=256694.4002236.5216697.1261774/D=egroupmai
l/S=:HM/A=1784493/rand=189181078>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
> Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
> boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
> charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
> to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
> "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
> are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
> designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
> racehttp://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
> These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
> the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
> building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
> another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
> of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
> considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
> boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
> overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
> trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
> you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
> just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
> the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
> marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
> last summer:http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/On the other hand, the
> smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
> just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
> about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
> Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
> a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
> the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
> fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>It's all about the I60. :-)
> or I60
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Lots of good points in your post. The build v.
restore question is always an interesting one. The
yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
thirty-year-old fiberglass production boats begging
for owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
because they want to build a boat, those old glass
hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
fixed it up, investing little time or expense, and I
could get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
left in their fierce old plastic hearts.
What if you want a glass cabin cat ketch that has
leeboards and draws less than a foot? Or a
thirty-foot shallow draft cruiser designed to plane
with a fifty horse outboard? Or a twenty-five foot
pulling boat? There ain't any lying in the weeds and
yards around here, I've looked A lot of us building
big boats do it (at least in part) because the market
(as it exists now and as it was thirty years ago)
isn't producing the boats we want. So I'd say if want
to build a boat for its own sake, build it. If you
want to get on the water cheap and are looking for
something produced of indestructible 'glass by the
thousands thirty years ago, buy or beg one , and fix
it up (that can be a lot of fun, too). But if you
really want something that will do what, say, a
Birdwatcher or Windermere will, and you can't afford
to have one built professionally, better break out
the circular saw and the glue pot. Sam
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
restore question is always an interesting one. The
yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
thirty-year-old fiberglass production boats begging
for owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
because they want to build a boat, those old glass
hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
fixed it up, investing little time or expense, and I
could get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
left in their fierce old plastic hearts.
What if you want a glass cabin cat ketch that has
leeboards and draws less than a foot? Or a
thirty-foot shallow draft cruiser designed to plane
with a fifty horse outboard? Or a twenty-five foot
pulling boat? There ain't any lying in the weeds and
yards around here, I've looked A lot of us building
big boats do it (at least in part) because the market
(as it exists now and as it was thirty years ago)
isn't producing the boats we want. So I'd say if want
to build a boat for its own sake, build it. If you
want to get on the water cheap and are looking for
something produced of indestructible 'glass by the
thousands thirty years ago, buy or beg one , and fix
it up (that can be a lot of fun, too). But if you
really want something that will do what, say, a
Birdwatcher or Windermere will, and you can't afford
to have one built professionally, better break out
the circular saw and the glue pot. Sam
> of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF__________________________________
> money and time are
> considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
> The fiberglass
> boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
> coasts are not to be
> overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
> riggings and
> trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
> you can build, and
> you spend your time sailing rather than building.
>
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Lots of good points in this post. The build v.
restore question is an interesting one. The yards
(back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty
year old fiberglass production boats begging for
owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
because they want to build a boat, those old glass
hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
fixxed it up with little time or expense, and I could
get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
left in thier fierce old plastic hearts.
indeed provide a more economical boat than buildin
When you start dreaming
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
restore question is an interesting one. The yards
(back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty
year old fiberglass production boats begging for
owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
because they want to build a boat, those old glass
hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
fixxed it up with little time or expense, and I could
get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
left in thier fierce old plastic hearts.
indeed provide a more economical boat than buildin
When you start dreaming
> of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF__________________________________
> money and time are
> considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
> The fiberglass
> boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
> coasts are not to be
> overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
> riggings and
> trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
> you can build, and
> you spend your time sailing rather than building.
>
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
The best reason to build your own is the fun of it, price has nothing to do with , the cost will always be more than you planned, because things change as you go along. The fourteen foot new Peep hen with trailer cost over ten thousand dollars, when finished out some goodies like engine that comes to 800 dollars a foot. Think of what you build for that kind of money.
---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am just telling the truth hereYes.
Restated, home built boats almost
always (re-)sell for less than the
cost of materials, not to mention the
cost of labor.
A choice to build a boat should be
for the reason that building boats
is fun!
More fun, I argue, if you include the
sport of seeing how cheap you can be!
Another reason to build you own boat
is that you can own a unique boat, out
of the ordinary, a boat that cannot be
bought, unique, a monument!
Superbrick!
or Puffer
or Eeeek!
or Monhegan
or Folding Schooner
or Illinois
or Yonder
or I60
Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
"gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
racehttp://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
last summer:http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/On the other hand, the
smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
"gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
racehttp://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
last summer:http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/On the other hand, the
smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG