Re: [bolger] Re: flat glassing with 20 mil film
>The bubbles in the fillets and the pinholes I mentioned are two separateAmine blush is on the surface.
>phenomena.
>
>The pin holes show up in an otherwise smooth glossy surface. I don't know
>if it's water vapor or air, but it is not the dreaded amine blush which
>(I've read) causes a fogged appearance. Using System Three, I've not had
>any blush.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
The bubbles in the fillets and the pinholes I mentioned are two separate
phenomena.
The pin holes show up in an otherwise smooth glossy surface. I don't know
if it's water vapor or air, but it is not the dreaded amine blush which
(I've read) causes a fogged appearance. Using System Three, I've not had
any blush.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
phenomena.
The pin holes show up in an otherwise smooth glossy surface. I don't know
if it's water vapor or air, but it is not the dreaded amine blush which
(I've read) causes a fogged appearance. Using System Three, I've not had
any blush.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "craig o'donnell" <dadadata@...>
> >Supposedly the warmth from the curing epoxy causes air in the wood to
expand
> >and come out.
>
> Well, it really has more to do with ambient temps. It's water vapor.
> You can glass in falling temps or heat the wood some first. There's
> no structural issue, it's cosmetic and causes a fogged sort of
> appearance. It shouldn't be visible as large bubbles.
>
> You can spot-heat things like fillets to cause air bubbles to break.
> Try a hair dryer.
I'm building a truck camper which I plan to fiberglass in lieu of the
aluminum skin and was wondering the same thing!
Ken
vexatious2001 wrote:
aluminum skin and was wondering the same thing!
Ken
vexatious2001 wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
> > On Rick's suggestion, this afternoon I rolled my lexan film up on
> the
> > rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),
> > and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
> > the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL....
>
>
>
>
>
> This is one of those posts which I save
> to the hard drive- something really usefull.
>
>
> Now all you have to do is figure out how to do
> this on vertical surfaces!
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>Supposedly the warmth from the curing epoxy causes air in the wood to expandWell, it really has more to do with ambient temps. It's water vapor.
>and come out.
You can glass in falling temps or heat the wood some first. There's
no structural issue, it's cosmetic and causes a fogged sort of
appearance. It shouldn't be visible as large bubbles.
You can spot-heat things like fillets to cause air bubbles to break.
Try a hair dryer.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
Next, fill your tube with lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GarthAB" <garth@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 11:31 AM
Subject: [bolger] Eureka! or, Great Moments in the History of Flat Glassing
with Film
> On Rick's suggestion, this afternoon I rolled my lexan film up on the
> rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),
> and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
> the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL. I put most of my weight on my
> knees, about a foot apart in the middle of the roll, and the rest of
> my weight on my hands out toward the edges. My toes bore about 3 oz.
> of weight to keep me balanced. There was the chance of a lovely face-
> plant into the epoxy surface ahead of me, but that never happened,
> thankfully.
> I rolled it out slowly -- about 2 or 3 feet a minute, "walking"
> along with my knees, gradually unrolling inch by inch. Very soon a
> wave of epoxy foam/froth built up in front of the unrolling cylinder
> (trapped under the glass) -- a tidal wave of air bubbles chased out
> on the spot. It looked like shaving cream, or spray-foam insulation.
> By the time I made it to the far end, it was oozing out the sides. I
> kept thinking it was going to back up somehow behind the roll, but it
> never did.
> The good news is -- no air bubbles at all left in the whole
> panel. Well, actually one, right near an edge, where I probably let
> up my hand pressure for a minute. The whole awful process of chasing
> out bubbles, which before was at least an hour -- and actually more
> like two or three hours if you wanted to get them ALL out -- is now
> reduced to 10 minutes of slow unrolling. I'm *very* happy about this.
> I couldn't believe I just rolled it out and walked away.
>
> The process slowly gets refined . . .
>
> All best,
> Garth
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
You hook your collar to a skyhook and think "West."
Roger
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: "vexatious2001" <cadbury@...>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
> > On Rick's suggestion, this afternoon I rolled my lexan film up on
> the
> > rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),
> > and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
> > the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL....
>
> Now all you have to do is figure out how to do
> this on vertical surfaces!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
to the hard drive- something really usefull.
Now all you have to do is figure out how to do
this on vertical surfaces!
Max
> On Rick's suggestion, this afternoon I rolled my lexan film up onthe
> rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),This is one of those posts which I save
> and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
> the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL....
to the hard drive- something really usefull.
Now all you have to do is figure out how to do
this on vertical surfaces!
Max
On Rick's suggestion, this afternoon I rolled my lexan film up on the
rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),
and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL. I put most of my weight on my
knees, about a foot apart in the middle of the roll, and the rest of
my weight on my hands out toward the edges. My toes bore about 3 oz.
of weight to keep me balanced. There was the chance of a lovely face-
plant into the epoxy surface ahead of me, but that never happened,
thankfully.
I rolled it out slowly -- about 2 or 3 feet a minute, "walking"
along with my knees, gradually unrolling inch by inch. Very soon a
wave of epoxy foam/froth built up in front of the unrolling cylinder
(trapped under the glass) -- a tidal wave of air bubbles chased out
on the spot. It looked like shaving cream, or spray-foam insulation.
By the time I made it to the far end, it was oozing out the sides. I
kept thinking it was going to back up somehow behind the roll, but it
never did.
The good news is -- no air bubbles at all left in the whole
panel. Well, actually one, right near an edge, where I probably let
up my hand pressure for a minute. The whole awful process of chasing
out bubbles, which before was at least an hour -- and actually more
like two or three hours if you wanted to get them ALL out -- is now
reduced to 10 minutes of slow unrolling. I'm *very* happy about this.
I couldn't believe I just rolled it out and walked away.
The process slowly gets refined . . .
All best,
Garth
rigid cardboard tube it came on (much like a piece of 4" PVC pipe),
and after wetting out epoxy and glass reasonably well, I rolled out
the film WHILE KNEELING ON THE ROLL. I put most of my weight on my
knees, about a foot apart in the middle of the roll, and the rest of
my weight on my hands out toward the edges. My toes bore about 3 oz.
of weight to keep me balanced. There was the chance of a lovely face-
plant into the epoxy surface ahead of me, but that never happened,
thankfully.
I rolled it out slowly -- about 2 or 3 feet a minute, "walking"
along with my knees, gradually unrolling inch by inch. Very soon a
wave of epoxy foam/froth built up in front of the unrolling cylinder
(trapped under the glass) -- a tidal wave of air bubbles chased out
on the spot. It looked like shaving cream, or spray-foam insulation.
By the time I made it to the far end, it was oozing out the sides. I
kept thinking it was going to back up somehow behind the roll, but it
never did.
The good news is -- no air bubbles at all left in the whole
panel. Well, actually one, right near an edge, where I probably let
up my hand pressure for a minute. The whole awful process of chasing
out bubbles, which before was at least an hour -- and actually more
like two or three hours if you wanted to get them ALL out -- is now
reduced to 10 minutes of slow unrolling. I'm *very* happy about this.
I couldn't believe I just rolled it out and walked away.
The process slowly gets refined . . .
All best,
Garth
I've gotten the "inverse bubbles" when trying to glass (inside) fillets. I
think the surface tension of the glass pulled it up, but you might be
getting the equivalent of, or amalgamation of, the "pin holes" that show up
in conventional glassing?
Supposedly the warmth from the curing epoxy causes air in the wood to expand
and come out. The cure is to warm the wood before you start, maybe with a
radiant heater, so the temperature is falling as the epoxy sets up. It
would reduce your working time, but ...
Just a thought.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
think the surface tension of the glass pulled it up, but you might be
getting the equivalent of, or amalgamation of, the "pin holes" that show up
in conventional glassing?
Supposedly the warmth from the curing epoxy causes air in the wood to expand
and come out. The cure is to warm the wood before you start, maybe with a
radiant heater, so the temperature is falling as the epoxy sets up. It
would reduce your working time, but ...
Just a thought.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "sctree" <sctree@...>
> > The odd thing is that all the glass seems wet out using just the
> > squeegee -- no visible starved areas, until the film has been rolled
> > out and it's too late. The film must lift the glass a bit in places
> > (and it probably lowers it in others), and in areas where you only
> > have *just enough* epoxy to make it look wet-out, you'll get
> > this "inverse bubble."
>
> This is strange. I wonder if the film and wet epoxy are attracted to
> each other and that's why the result is such a flat smooth surface. If
> so, then it's essential to get the film down tight to the plywood. (I
> duno anything here, just speculating).
>
> I wonder if a little localized warmth from a gentle heat gun would
> settle the film down enough to to make a depressed hollow rather than
> the inverted bubble?
Garth,
Thanks for taking away from your building time to go over these
things... You are taking more photos???
each other and that's why the result is such a flat smooth surface. If
so, then it's essential to get the film down tight to the plywood. (I
duno anything here, just speculating).
I wonder if a little localized warmth from a gentle heat gun would
settle the film down enough to to make a depressed hollow rather than
the inverted bubble?
aluminum there are also less expensive plastic, and very pricey bronze.
I once saw a home made one, constructed of steel flat washers, two 1/2"
diameter washers, one 1" diameter fender washer, two 1/2" etc..... on an
old paint roller frame....
I've been taught to pour the epoxy out in a grid like cross hatch
pattern, a thin line maybe 4"-6" apart, done diagonal to the cloth's
weave if possible, less dragging of that puddle of poxy.
show better.
unroll you can apply pressure with the roll itself. As you go if too
many bubbles surface, unroll a bit and re-squeegee? Then again
unrolling would get epoxy on the wrong side of the film.....
3' wide, which you fill with water to increase the pressure...
All in all, I'm very impressed with your efforts and results. You've
worked out lots of bugs for this system. Soon I should be following in
your footsteps.... Unless someone else will step in.... one more set of
"phase one" boat panels and this system should be the way to go.....
Rick-
Thanks for taking away from your building time to go over these
things... You are taking more photos???
>This is strange. I wonder if the film and wet epoxy are attracted to
>
> The odd thing is that all the glass seems wet out using just the
> squeegee -- no visible starved areas, until the film has been rolled
> out and it's too late. The film must lift the glass a bit in places
> (and it probably lowers it in others), and in areas where you only
> have *just enough* epoxy to make it look wet-out, you'll get
> this "inverse bubble."
each other and that's why the result is such a flat smooth surface. If
so, then it's essential to get the film down tight to the plywood. (I
duno anything here, just speculating).
I wonder if a little localized warmth from a gentle heat gun would
settle the film down enough to to make a depressed hollow rather than
the inverted bubble?
> Your idea of going over it all with a rollerGet a laminating roller like Frank suggested. In addition to the
> is good -- squeegee it all out first, then roll over it as a sort of
> insurance policy to make sure there's more or less equal coverage
> everywhere.
aluminum there are also less expensive plastic, and very pricey bronze.
I once saw a home made one, constructed of steel flat washers, two 1/2"
diameter washers, one 1" diameter fender washer, two 1/2" etc..... on an
old paint roller frame....
>Wow, you're a much braver soul than I. I'da done a pint at a time....
> 2) Then I pour out my gallon of mixed epoxy in a line down the center
> of the panel and squeegee it toward the edges. This works out all the
> wrinkles in the cloth.
I've been taught to pour the epoxy out in a grid like cross hatch
pattern, a thin line maybe 4"-6" apart, done diagonal to the cloth's
weave if possible, less dragging of that puddle of poxy.
>This is where a laminating roller on a four foot handle would be real handy.
> 3) Once all the glass is soaked clear, I run the squeegee gently back
> and forth with my little pools of excess, trying to leave a uniform
> layer everywhere. (Note -- this part "rolls" the pool of excess epoxy
> in front of the squeegee and can lead to a frothy mix. You have to go
> really slowly, and try not to transport epoxy from one end of the
> panel to the other.)
>Get you eye down low and look from a shallow angle, the dry spots should
> 4) Once the coating looks uniform... <snip> ...Maybe after this break
> is when I
> should roller some epoxy on, as the dry spots might be more visible.
show better.
> I've also been thinking that having a film rollout aid -- maybe aWhat about first rolling the film tightly onto a pipe, then as you
> round metal bar or piece of 4" PVC pipe that you roll along
> immediately after the roll of film as it extends out, pressing hard
> as you go -- might help avoid more bubbles in the first place.
unroll you can apply pressure with the roll itself. As you go if too
many bubbles surface, unroll a bit and re-squeegee? Then again
unrolling would get epoxy on the wrong side of the film.....
>A landscaper's turf roller! It's a big hollow steel drum 18" diameter,
>
> My standard baker's
> rolling pin is definitely not rated to the proper PSI. I wind up
> leaning on one corner of it, which then cuts a V-like channel in the
> underyling epoxy. It gets the bubbles out, but only with repeated
> passes. I'm not sure if anything is really ideal for this phase --
> it's just a pain. At least an hour of crawling around, grunting and
> swearing a blue streak.
3' wide, which you fill with water to increase the pressure...
All in all, I'm very impressed with your efforts and results. You've
worked out lots of bugs for this system. Soon I should be following in
your footsteps.... Unless someone else will step in.... one more set of
"phase one" boat panels and this system should be the way to go.....
Rick-
I got my laminate roller from Raka (http://www.raka.com) - it is a
machined aluminum cylinder comprised of evenly spaced little aluminum
disks about 3/32" thick by 1" dia. by 4" length.
Frank
machined aluminum cylinder comprised of evenly spaced little aluminum
disks about 3/32" thick by 1" dia. by 4" length.
Frank
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
> 5) Once the film is on, start rolling out the air bubbles. You were
> right several weeks back when you suggested using one of those small
> printer's rollers, or linoleum block rollers. My standard baker's
> rolling pin is definitely not rated to the proper PSI. I wind up
> leaning on one corner of it, which then cuts a V-like channel in the
> underyling epoxy. It gets the bubbles out, but only with repeated
> passes. I'm not sure if anything is really ideal for this phase --
> it's just a pain. At least an hour of crawling around, grunting and
> swearing a blue streak.
> Sorry to be pestering you about this, but I'd like to see if thisRick --
> process can get refined....
Pester away! As with all boatbuilders, I'm happy to go into mind-
boggling minutia about the task at hand. To all list members not
currently fascinated by the glories and glamour of glassing with
film -- my apologies. . . .
> Maybe you need a wetout roller to go over the epoxy and cloth andget
> all the dry spots saturated before laying on the film?The odd thing is that all the glass seems wet out using just the
squeegee -- no visible starved areas, until the film has been rolled
out and it's too late. The film must lift the glass a bit in places
(and it probably lowers it in others), and in areas where you only
have *just enough* epoxy to make it look wet-out, you'll get
this "inverse bubble." Your idea of going over it all with a roller
is good -- squeegee it all out first, then roll over it as a sort of
insurance policy to make sure there's more or less equal coverage
everywhere.
>down
> Maybe I'm unclear about your sequence of tasks, are you are laying
> the cloth on the plywood dry, pouring on batches of epoxy and usinga
> squeegee to spread it into the cloth and dragging off the excess,Or
> unrolling the clear 20 mil film and rollering out the air bubbles??
> are you wetting out the whole panel then rolling on the film???The sequence is just as you state it:
>
> If so, how much time between squeegee and laying on the film?
1) Roll out the 6 oz. glass dry on the plywood. (I didn't want to
roll out epoxy on bare wood first, as I've had big trouble in the
past with the glass sticking in the wrong place, and then getting all
warped and rumpled as I try to correct it.)
2) Then I pour out my gallon of mixed epoxy in a line down the center
of the panel and squeegee it toward the edges. This works out all the
wrinkles in the cloth.
3) Once all the glass is soaked clear, I run the squeegee gently back
and forth with my little pools of excess, trying to leave a uniform
layer everywhere. (Note -- this part "rolls" the pool of excess epoxy
in front of the squeegee and can lead to a frothy mix. You have to go
really slowly, and try not to transport epoxy from one end of the
panel to the other.)
4) Once the coating looks uniform and all the glass is nice and
clear, I roll out the film on top of it (one big 4" wide x 32' long
sheet). The first time I did this I was rushing because I was afraid
my fast-hardener epoxy would kick off, and I placed the film on
immediately. Now I know that working in temps of mid-60s to low-70s,
and having the epoxy spread so thin, I have easily two, maybe three
hours before it starts to set. So this leads me to think I should
take a break of half an hour to an hour between the Squeegee Phase
and the Film Phase, to let the epoxy soak in, and let any
minute "froth" air bubbles surface. Maybe after this break is when I
should roller some epoxy on, as the dry spots might be more visible.
I've also been thinking that having a film rollout aid -- maybe a
round metal bar or piece of 4" PVC pipe that you roll along
immediately after the roll of film as it extends out, pressing hard
as you go -- might help avoid more bubbles in the first place.
5) Once the film is on, start rolling out the air bubbles. You were
right several weeks back when you suggested using one of those small
printer's rollers, or linoleum block rollers. My standard baker's
rolling pin is definitely not rated to the proper PSI. I wind up
leaning on one corner of it, which then cuts a V-like channel in the
underyling epoxy. It gets the bubbles out, but only with repeated
passes. I'm not sure if anything is really ideal for this phase --
it's just a pain. At least an hour of crawling around, grunting and
swearing a blue streak.
A note on the sequence -- all is preceded by the Taping Phase, where
I tape all the edges underneath to catch/block runoff of excess epoxy
which would sneak under there and make nasty globby puddles. And I
mask off whatever edge(s) on top need to be left clean for later
joining. The Taping Phase usually takes 20 minutes, time well
invested.
Thanks for the advice on the high-build primer. I'll look into that.
I was hoping to work all-out in these last few warm days to get all
my panels glassed inside and out so I could go 3-D with the boat over
the winter -- but my wife kindly and gently reminded me last night
that I've sworn *never* to build a boat in haste again, so I'm
dialing back a bit. I skipped my nighttime glassing blitz. I'll do
what I can over the weekend, probably wind up with the side panels
glassed both sides, the bilge panels glassed one side each, and the
bottom not at all. Then, probably have to wait till late April to
finish them. . . .
Over the winter I'll do all the non-epoxy things: sew the sails, make
the leeboard and rudder and tiller, (try to make homebuilt portlights
out of wood & Lexan?), make a birdsmouth mainmast and assemble the
tabernacle, make the other spars, accumulate electronics stuff, etc.
Enough to ward off cabin fever and aggravate the boat fever.
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
I did indeed go with the BM Industrial coatings product
M33 / M34.
It is a nice,high build primer of which my bottom has now
recieved 4 coats.The surface which you intend on using the primer
must,however,be thoroughly sanded.
This product drys(cures) in a relatively short time and
depending on how quickly you work,you migh be able to get the first
2 coats on by applying them back to back.
This worked for me.Once the intial 2 coats were cured,the
entire bottom was once again sanded to eliminate tons of minute
little imperfections.This task was not as bad as it sounds since the
primer itself sands relatively easy compared to the laminating resin
I used for my FG saturation.After a thorough wash down with hot
water and clean rags,another two coats were applied back to back.
The results are impressive,from my point of view,and the
bottom now looks like something pulled from a mold.
Presently,I am debating whether to leave it as is;that
is,without anti-fouling paint or give her one more sanding for the
eventual application of anti-fouling paint.The finish is hard and
glossy and based on my experience with my other boats fouling only
ever occured near the waterline and never underneath the flat
botoms.I chose the red color,over the grey,for my primer and it now
looks just like the colour of the anti-fouling I was going to use
anyway. Does anyone out there have have any pertinent experience
regarding dispensing with the anti-fouling paint,especially in fresh
water use?
One final note,the "kit" from Benjamin Moore was $136.00CAN
for 2 gallons(1 gal.part A,1 gal.part B).This is a 1:1 two part
epoxy paint.I may have just enough left over to do my centerboard
and box.Not bad after 4 coats on a 31' bottom :-)
Best of luck Garth with your boatbuilding and thanks Rick
for steering me in the right direction regarding"high build primers".
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,nursing myself off a bad little cold I caught this
past Thursday while doing some early morning work on the boat as a
cold damp fog swirled all around me and chilled me to the bones.Next
time I go I'll be better dressed and leave the shorts and sandals at
home.............
>with
> Windermere Peter went searching for something similar and ended up
> an Industrial Coatings (the commercial line of Benjamin Moore)product.
> M33 / M34 ( I think). I bet by now he's used some, maybe he'llspeak
> up....Garth and Rick,
I did indeed go with the BM Industrial coatings product
M33 / M34.
It is a nice,high build primer of which my bottom has now
recieved 4 coats.The surface which you intend on using the primer
must,however,be thoroughly sanded.
This product drys(cures) in a relatively short time and
depending on how quickly you work,you migh be able to get the first
2 coats on by applying them back to back.
This worked for me.Once the intial 2 coats were cured,the
entire bottom was once again sanded to eliminate tons of minute
little imperfections.This task was not as bad as it sounds since the
primer itself sands relatively easy compared to the laminating resin
I used for my FG saturation.After a thorough wash down with hot
water and clean rags,another two coats were applied back to back.
The results are impressive,from my point of view,and the
bottom now looks like something pulled from a mold.
Presently,I am debating whether to leave it as is;that
is,without anti-fouling paint or give her one more sanding for the
eventual application of anti-fouling paint.The finish is hard and
glossy and based on my experience with my other boats fouling only
ever occured near the waterline and never underneath the flat
botoms.I chose the red color,over the grey,for my primer and it now
looks just like the colour of the anti-fouling I was going to use
anyway. Does anyone out there have have any pertinent experience
regarding dispensing with the anti-fouling paint,especially in fresh
water use?
One final note,the "kit" from Benjamin Moore was $136.00CAN
for 2 gallons(1 gal.part A,1 gal.part B).This is a 1:1 two part
epoxy paint.I may have just enough left over to do my centerboard
and box.Not bad after 4 coats on a 31' bottom :-)
Best of luck Garth with your boatbuilding and thanks Rick
for steering me in the right direction regarding"high build primers".
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,nursing myself off a bad little cold I caught this
past Thursday while doing some early morning work on the boat as a
cold damp fog swirled all around me and chilled me to the bones.Next
time I go I'll be better dressed and leave the shorts and sandals at
home.............
Garth,
Sorry to be pestering you about this, but I'd like to see if this
process can get refined....
The dryspots are a pain, yes they can be cut out and filled, but there
goes your clear finish.... Of course a couple coats of paint will
protect the epoxy from UV much better than a dozen coats of varnish.....
Maybe you need a wetout roller to go over the epoxy and cloth and get
all the dry spots saturated before laying on the film?
Maybe I'm unclear about your sequence of tasks, are you are laying down
the cloth on the plywood dry, pouring on batches of epoxy and using a
squeegee to spread it into the cloth and dragging off the excess,
unrolling the clear 20 mil film and rollering out the air bubbles?? Or
are you wetting out the whole panel then rolling on the film???
If so, how much time between squeegee and laying on the film?
The 2-part epoxy primer that I have experience with is (was) an
industrial product, no fancy label, no retail sales... called ProLine
Yacht Finish, at $36 a gallon, mfg. in San Diego. It's what all the
boatyards were using last time I was in Sausalito. Great stuff and you
can put it on over epoxy or glassed epoxy without sanding, provided any
amine blush was rinsed. Then if any further fairing is needed you can
epoxy w/filler right over it, as it's epoxy on epoxy.... Sands very
smooth for an excellent base for topcoating. I know of several boat
projects in Sausalito that used this primer over epoxy to protect the
epoxy from UV (always a good thing) and weather as they were loooong
term projects, one is over ten years now. The thought being all the
accumulated dirt and grime will come off when it's washed and sanded
prior to final paint prep. Thing is Sherwin William's bought ProLine
since I last had a need for it.
See here:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/industrial-marine/cs/cs-summer2001/project-02.asp
And I'm not sure it's still available, try looking here:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/industrial-marine/products/coatings/
Windermere Peter went searching for something similar and ended up with
an Industrial Coatings (the commercial line of Benjamin Moore) product.
M33 / M34 ( I think). I bet by now he's used some, maybe he'll speak
up.... I've used BM's Industrial Coatings M-28 latex on my boats with
great results.....
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/wrapper_pg3.asp?L=prod&K=coat
Then there is the traditional and proven marine store primers at $80 a
gallon, most often used out here seems to be Interlux 404/414 or the
very pricey $150-$180 per gallon Sterling or Awlgrip stuff.
Anyway, I'm enjoying your progress.
Rick-
GarthAB wrote:
Sorry to be pestering you about this, but I'd like to see if this
process can get refined....
The dryspots are a pain, yes they can be cut out and filled, but there
goes your clear finish.... Of course a couple coats of paint will
protect the epoxy from UV much better than a dozen coats of varnish.....
Maybe you need a wetout roller to go over the epoxy and cloth and get
all the dry spots saturated before laying on the film?
Maybe I'm unclear about your sequence of tasks, are you are laying down
the cloth on the plywood dry, pouring on batches of epoxy and using a
squeegee to spread it into the cloth and dragging off the excess,
unrolling the clear 20 mil film and rollering out the air bubbles?? Or
are you wetting out the whole panel then rolling on the film???
If so, how much time between squeegee and laying on the film?
The 2-part epoxy primer that I have experience with is (was) an
industrial product, no fancy label, no retail sales... called ProLine
Yacht Finish, at $36 a gallon, mfg. in San Diego. It's what all the
boatyards were using last time I was in Sausalito. Great stuff and you
can put it on over epoxy or glassed epoxy without sanding, provided any
amine blush was rinsed. Then if any further fairing is needed you can
epoxy w/filler right over it, as it's epoxy on epoxy.... Sands very
smooth for an excellent base for topcoating. I know of several boat
projects in Sausalito that used this primer over epoxy to protect the
epoxy from UV (always a good thing) and weather as they were loooong
term projects, one is over ten years now. The thought being all the
accumulated dirt and grime will come off when it's washed and sanded
prior to final paint prep. Thing is Sherwin William's bought ProLine
since I last had a need for it.
See here:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/industrial-marine/cs/cs-summer2001/project-02.asp
And I'm not sure it's still available, try looking here:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/industrial-marine/products/coatings/
Windermere Peter went searching for something similar and ended up with
an Industrial Coatings (the commercial line of Benjamin Moore) product.
M33 / M34 ( I think). I bet by now he's used some, maybe he'll speak
up.... I've used BM's Industrial Coatings M-28 latex on my boats with
great results.....
http://www.benjaminmoore.com/wrapper_pg3.asp?L=prod&K=coat
Then there is the traditional and proven marine store primers at $80 a
gallon, most often used out here seems to be Interlux 404/414 or the
very pricey $150-$180 per gallon Sterling or Awlgrip stuff.
Anyway, I'm enjoying your progress.
Rick-
GarthAB wrote:
> Hi Rick ---[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Yes, I'm using 6 oz. cloth. The second panel went much better today,
> with only 1.0 gallon of epoxy instead of 1.5. I had a bit of excess
> even then, so I'm going to try the next one with 0.8 gallons. Very
> little noticeable waviness today, though still air bubbles. I had an
> appointment today that limited my work time -- and I hurried through
> the roll-out part, leaving more bubbles than I'd care to think about.
>
> Most of these bubbles are solid glass and epoxy on the bottom, but a
> cupped opening upward. Those can just be filled. But a few are
> inverted bubbles -- glass starved of epoxy riding free of the wood,
> maybe half an inch or an inch across. Those -- well, those I may cut
> out and fill.
>
> When I'm wetting out the epoxy, the starved spots don't show. It's
> only when the film levels things out that they appear. So you never
> really can be sure you have enough epoxy on each square inch. I'll
> try for a more even squeegeeing.
>
> I had hoped to leave certain parts of the sides finished bright --
> the cabin sides above the rubrail. But with these air bubbles, paint
> may be the way to go. Or, maybe leave it bright and figure few people
> will ever give it a close-up inspeaction, and from ten feet you'd
> hardly notice. . . .
>
> Tell me more about 2-part high build epoxy primer. Can that go on
> when the underlying epoxy is fully cured and not sanded? Or does it
> have to go on when the underlying layer is still green? Where could I
> order it?
>
> OK -- onward. I hope to glass another panel after dinner tonight to
> speed up the production line while the weather's good.
>
> All best,
> Garth
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> > Garth,
> >
> > Thanks for the report, very enlightening.
> >
> > What weight glass cloth (was it glass?) did you use? I feel you
> are on
> > track with the excessive epoxy thing. If my math is correct you're
> using
> > an ounce per sq. ft? I agree it's too much with 6 oz cloth. Are the
> > "waves" all perpendicular to the length of the panel? Maybe a
> different
> > roller or roller technique is necessary? Going slower and
> outrolling as
> > you go seem like a great idea. Perhaps more squeegee pressure to
> remove
> > excess epoxy before covering with the plastic?
> >
> > As to the unfairness, looks nearly as flat as I've ever achieved
> > flowcoating. If it's only 0.5 mm per 12" I'd be tempted to go
> straight
> > to (meaning without sanding first) a 2-part high build epoxy primer
> and
> > a then longboard attached to one of those universal joint drywall
> > sanding sticks to save your back. That should fill the shallow
> > depressions and highlight the deepest ones which can be filled with
> a
> > feathering epoxy-filler mix. To me it make more sense to not sand
> the
> > entire panel, why take off all they epoxy? Instead fill the low
> spots.
> >
> > Good luck on today's panel.
> >
> > Rick-
>
>
>
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> Bolger rules!!!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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> Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Hi Rick ---
Yes, I'm using 6 oz. cloth. The second panel went much better today,
with only 1.0 gallon of epoxy instead of 1.5. I had a bit of excess
even then, so I'm going to try the next one with 0.8 gallons. Very
little noticeable waviness today, though still air bubbles. I had an
appointment today that limited my work time -- and I hurried through
the roll-out part, leaving more bubbles than I'd care to think about.
Most of these bubbles are solid glass and epoxy on the bottom, but a
cupped opening upward. Those can just be filled. But a few are
inverted bubbles -- glass starved of epoxy riding free of the wood,
maybe half an inch or an inch across. Those -- well, those I may cut
out and fill.
When I'm wetting out the epoxy, the starved spots don't show. It's
only when the film levels things out that they appear. So you never
really can be sure you have enough epoxy on each square inch. I'll
try for a more even squeegeeing.
I had hoped to leave certain parts of the sides finished bright --
the cabin sides above the rubrail. But with these air bubbles, paint
may be the way to go. Or, maybe leave it bright and figure few people
will ever give it a close-up inspeaction, and from ten feet you'd
hardly notice. . . .
Tell me more about 2-part high build epoxy primer. Can that go on
when the underlying epoxy is fully cured and not sanded? Or does it
have to go on when the underlying layer is still green? Where could I
order it?
OK -- onward. I hope to glass another panel after dinner tonight to
speed up the production line while the weather's good.
All best,
Garth
Yes, I'm using 6 oz. cloth. The second panel went much better today,
with only 1.0 gallon of epoxy instead of 1.5. I had a bit of excess
even then, so I'm going to try the next one with 0.8 gallons. Very
little noticeable waviness today, though still air bubbles. I had an
appointment today that limited my work time -- and I hurried through
the roll-out part, leaving more bubbles than I'd care to think about.
Most of these bubbles are solid glass and epoxy on the bottom, but a
cupped opening upward. Those can just be filled. But a few are
inverted bubbles -- glass starved of epoxy riding free of the wood,
maybe half an inch or an inch across. Those -- well, those I may cut
out and fill.
When I'm wetting out the epoxy, the starved spots don't show. It's
only when the film levels things out that they appear. So you never
really can be sure you have enough epoxy on each square inch. I'll
try for a more even squeegeeing.
I had hoped to leave certain parts of the sides finished bright --
the cabin sides above the rubrail. But with these air bubbles, paint
may be the way to go. Or, maybe leave it bright and figure few people
will ever give it a close-up inspeaction, and from ten feet you'd
hardly notice. . . .
Tell me more about 2-part high build epoxy primer. Can that go on
when the underlying epoxy is fully cured and not sanded? Or does it
have to go on when the underlying layer is still green? Where could I
order it?
OK -- onward. I hope to glass another panel after dinner tonight to
speed up the production line while the weather's good.
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> Garth,
>
> Thanks for the report, very enlightening.
>
> What weight glass cloth (was it glass?) did you use? I feel you
are on
> track with the excessive epoxy thing. If my math is correct you're
using
> an ounce per sq. ft? I agree it's too much with 6 oz cloth. Are the
> "waves" all perpendicular to the length of the panel? Maybe a
different
> roller or roller technique is necessary? Going slower and
outrolling as
> you go seem like a great idea. Perhaps more squeegee pressure to
remove
> excess epoxy before covering with the plastic?
>
> As to the unfairness, looks nearly as flat as I've ever achieved
> flowcoating. If it's only 0.5 mm per 12" I'd be tempted to go
straight
> to (meaning without sanding first) a 2-part high build epoxy primer
and
> a then longboard attached to one of those universal joint drywall
> sanding sticks to save your back. That should fill the shallow
> depressions and highlight the deepest ones which can be filled with
a
> feathering epoxy-filler mix. To me it make more sense to not sand
the
> entire panel, why take off all they epoxy? Instead fill the low
spots.
>
> Good luck on today's panel.
>
> Rick-
Garth,
Thanks for the report, very enlightening.
What weight glass cloth (was it glass?) did you use? I feel you are on
track with the excessive epoxy thing. If my math is correct you're using
an ounce per sq. ft? I agree it's too much with 6 oz cloth. Are the
"waves" all perpendicular to the length of the panel? Maybe a different
roller or roller technique is necessary? Going slower and outrolling as
you go seem like a great idea. Perhaps more squeegee pressure to remove
excess epoxy before covering with the plastic?
As to the unfairness, looks nearly as flat as I've ever achieved
flowcoating. If it's only 0.5 mm per 12" I'd be tempted to go straight
to (meaning without sanding first) a 2-part high build epoxy primer and
a then longboard attached to one of those universal joint drywall
sanding sticks to save your back. That should fill the shallow
depressions and highlight the deepest ones which can be filled with a
feathering epoxy-filler mix. To me it make more sense to not sand the
entire panel, why take off all they epoxy? Instead fill the low spots.
Good luck on today's panel.
Rick-
.
GarthAB wrote:
Thanks for the report, very enlightening.
What weight glass cloth (was it glass?) did you use? I feel you are on
track with the excessive epoxy thing. If my math is correct you're using
an ounce per sq. ft? I agree it's too much with 6 oz cloth. Are the
"waves" all perpendicular to the length of the panel? Maybe a different
roller or roller technique is necessary? Going slower and outrolling as
you go seem like a great idea. Perhaps more squeegee pressure to remove
excess epoxy before covering with the plastic?
As to the unfairness, looks nearly as flat as I've ever achieved
flowcoating. If it's only 0.5 mm per 12" I'd be tempted to go straight
to (meaning without sanding first) a 2-part high build epoxy primer and
a then longboard attached to one of those universal joint drywall
sanding sticks to save your back. That should fill the shallow
depressions and highlight the deepest ones which can be filled with a
feathering epoxy-filler mix. To me it make more sense to not sand the
entire panel, why take off all they epoxy? Instead fill the low spots.
Good luck on today's panel.
Rick-
.
GarthAB wrote:
> Yesterday I finally glassed a whole side of Cormorant (32' long x 4'[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> wide), flat on the floor. The results are something between success
> and failure.
>
> Basically, I got a very smooth finish, but not a fair one. There are
> undulations visible in the surface of the epoxy. They may be only 0.5
> mm, over 12 inches or so. Even though the epoxy surface is smooth as
> glass, you can definitely see a waviness in places if you get a low-
> angle light on it. I'm not sure if this will be less apparent when
> the panel is bent onto the bulkheads -- or if it will disappear after
> a good sanding. I'm not even sure if it's more waviness that you'd
> normally get when wetting out glass on the side of a boat -- maybe
> it's just more apparent when the whole thing is lying flat? Anyway --
> it's not the result I was hoping for, and I have a few ideas for
> improving the next one.
>
> Stiffer film would do better -- 30 mil instead of the 20 mil Lexan I
> got. But it's too late now -- I'm not shelling out for more.
>
> I tried rolling out these low waves with my pie-roller, but they were
> strangely resistant to it. I tried scraping a 10" long edge of a
> piece of wood over them, but that too had little effect.
>
> Beyond that, chasing out the air bubbles was a big pain. I probably
> spent 30 minutes wetting out the panel (with a long handled
> squeegee), and over an hour laboriously rolling out air bubbles once
> the film was on. I didn't even get them all. Part of the trouble is
> the width of the panel -- nearly 4 feet in places -- so a bubble
> trapped near the center had a long way to go, and it would break into
> smaller bubbles along the way.
>
> To prevent waviness in future attempts, I think I'll use less epoxy.
> Those waves are little hills of excess epoxy -- which you'd think you
> could just roll out, but once it's all stuck under the film it
> develops a fluid drag that makes it hard to shift around. I used 1.5
> gallons of mixed epoxy on this panel. Next time I'll try to make do
> with just 1.
>
> I did mask off the bottom edge of the panel, where it will eventually
> be joined with the bilge panel, using cheap clear plastic packing
> tape. I then cut along the inner edge of the tape with a razor knife
> when the epoxy was green, and peeled it all right up, leaving a bare
> wood strip for joining. At least that part went as planned.
>
> The air bubble trouble can be lessened by rolling them out as you
> roll out the film. I'll go slower on that part,work out the bubbles
> when they're near an edge.
>
> Well, live and learn. I hope to have more info on this over the
> coming days. The weather will remain warm enough here for epoxy work
> through the weekend, so with luck I'll get 3 more panel sides done.
>
> All best,
> Garth
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
Yesterday I finally glassed a whole side of Cormorant (32' long x 4'
wide), flat on the floor. The results are something between success
and failure.
Basically, I got a very smooth finish, but not a fair one. There are
undulations visible in the surface of the epoxy. They may be only 0.5
mm, over 12 inches or so. Even though the epoxy surface is smooth as
glass, you can definitely see a waviness in places if you get a low-
angle light on it. I'm not sure if this will be less apparent when
the panel is bent onto the bulkheads -- or if it will disappear after
a good sanding. I'm not even sure if it's more waviness that you'd
normally get when wetting out glass on the side of a boat -- maybe
it's just more apparent when the whole thing is lying flat? Anyway --
it's not the result I was hoping for, and I have a few ideas for
improving the next one.
Stiffer film would do better -- 30 mil instead of the 20 mil Lexan I
got. But it's too late now -- I'm not shelling out for more.
I tried rolling out these low waves with my pie-roller, but they were
strangely resistant to it. I tried scraping a 10" long edge of a
piece of wood over them, but that too had little effect.
Beyond that, chasing out the air bubbles was a big pain. I probably
spent 30 minutes wetting out the panel (with a long handled
squeegee), and over an hour laboriously rolling out air bubbles once
the film was on. I didn't even get them all. Part of the trouble is
the width of the panel -- nearly 4 feet in places -- so a bubble
trapped near the center had a long way to go, and it would break into
smaller bubbles along the way.
To prevent waviness in future attempts, I think I'll use less epoxy.
Those waves are little hills of excess epoxy -- which you'd think you
could just roll out, but once it's all stuck under the film it
develops a fluid drag that makes it hard to shift around. I used 1.5
gallons of mixed epoxy on this panel. Next time I'll try to make do
with just 1.
I did mask off the bottom edge of the panel, where it will eventually
be joined with the bilge panel, using cheap clear plastic packing
tape. I then cut along the inner edge of the tape with a razor knife
when the epoxy was green, and peeled it all right up, leaving a bare
wood strip for joining. At least that part went as planned.
The air bubble trouble can be lessened by rolling them out as you
roll out the film. I'll go slower on that part,work out the bubbles
when they're near an edge.
Well, live and learn. I hope to have more info on this over the
coming days. The weather will remain warm enough here for epoxy work
through the weekend, so with luck I'll get 3 more panel sides done.
All best,
Garth
wide), flat on the floor. The results are something between success
and failure.
Basically, I got a very smooth finish, but not a fair one. There are
undulations visible in the surface of the epoxy. They may be only 0.5
mm, over 12 inches or so. Even though the epoxy surface is smooth as
glass, you can definitely see a waviness in places if you get a low-
angle light on it. I'm not sure if this will be less apparent when
the panel is bent onto the bulkheads -- or if it will disappear after
a good sanding. I'm not even sure if it's more waviness that you'd
normally get when wetting out glass on the side of a boat -- maybe
it's just more apparent when the whole thing is lying flat? Anyway --
it's not the result I was hoping for, and I have a few ideas for
improving the next one.
Stiffer film would do better -- 30 mil instead of the 20 mil Lexan I
got. But it's too late now -- I'm not shelling out for more.
I tried rolling out these low waves with my pie-roller, but they were
strangely resistant to it. I tried scraping a 10" long edge of a
piece of wood over them, but that too had little effect.
Beyond that, chasing out the air bubbles was a big pain. I probably
spent 30 minutes wetting out the panel (with a long handled
squeegee), and over an hour laboriously rolling out air bubbles once
the film was on. I didn't even get them all. Part of the trouble is
the width of the panel -- nearly 4 feet in places -- so a bubble
trapped near the center had a long way to go, and it would break into
smaller bubbles along the way.
To prevent waviness in future attempts, I think I'll use less epoxy.
Those waves are little hills of excess epoxy -- which you'd think you
could just roll out, but once it's all stuck under the film it
develops a fluid drag that makes it hard to shift around. I used 1.5
gallons of mixed epoxy on this panel. Next time I'll try to make do
with just 1.
I did mask off the bottom edge of the panel, where it will eventually
be joined with the bilge panel, using cheap clear plastic packing
tape. I then cut along the inner edge of the tape with a razor knife
when the epoxy was green, and peeled it all right up, leaving a bare
wood strip for joining. At least that part went as planned.
The air bubble trouble can be lessened by rolling them out as you
roll out the film. I'll go slower on that part,work out the bubbles
when they're near an edge.
Well, live and learn. I hope to have more info on this over the
coming days. The weather will remain warm enough here for epoxy work
through the weekend, so with luck I'll get 3 more panel sides done.
All best,
Garth