Re: [bolger] Re: Junebug modified
You can also take a quick look athttp://mission.base.com/pedal-power/pp_main.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Rust
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:25 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Junebug modified
If you're seeking plans for flat-bottomed pedal powered boats,
including a 16 foot houseboat ('Escargot') and a camp-cruiser
('Serendipitous Snail') .. contact Paul Thiel, 4720 7th Avenue NE,
Seattle, WA 98105. His designs use the 'SeaCycle' propeller
units and have many similarities to Bolger's boats.
Lee Rust
Rochester NY
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you're seeking plans for flat-bottomed pedal powered boats,
including a 16 foot houseboat ('Escargot') and a camp-cruiser
('Serendipitous Snail') .. contact Paul Thiel, 4720 7th Avenue NE,
Seattle, WA 98105. His designs use the 'SeaCycle' propeller
units and have many similarities to Bolger's boats.
Lee Rust
Rochester NY
including a 16 foot houseboat ('Escargot') and a camp-cruiser
('Serendipitous Snail') .. contact Paul Thiel, 4720 7th Avenue NE,
Seattle, WA 98105. His designs use the 'SeaCycle' propeller
units and have many similarities to Bolger's boats.
Lee Rust
Rochester NY
Please forgive weird appearance of this post as my computer is fighting
me again.
I think Bolger's pedal boat had little rocker due to the method of it's
construction, not for hydrodynamic reasons. Paddlin Madeline (is that
it's silly name?) had those straight sides you cut out and flare to get
a curve in the bottom. June Bug has vertical sides with the curve cut
into them.
Given Payson's description of the trouble and money getting the
mechanism welded up, it might be better to consider the lower unit from
the SeaCycle, which is kinda like an outboard motor lower unit with
pedals at the top instead of a motor. You'd have to use it thru a well
in the bottom and make provisions to pull it up to clear weeds. If it's
the one I think it is, it works impressively well. I think one or two
other companies make stuff like this. Another unit is called the Spin
Fin, but I don't think it's produced yet. There's also a lightweight
paddlewheel out there for canoes but I don't know how well it works. A
guy in northeastern Canada, I forget the province, makes something
called the Fin Boat and offers plans with enough detail to make your own
propulsion unit. You might consider spending time on this list:
http://www.ihpva.org/mailman/listinfo/hpv-boats
Of course, as with all lists, take it with a grain of salt.
I think with the ratcheted propellor shaft you'd need a big flywheel so
as not to drag the stopped prop thru the water between strokes.
me again.
I think Bolger's pedal boat had little rocker due to the method of it's
construction, not for hydrodynamic reasons. Paddlin Madeline (is that
it's silly name?) had those straight sides you cut out and flare to get
a curve in the bottom. June Bug has vertical sides with the curve cut
into them.
Given Payson's description of the trouble and money getting the
mechanism welded up, it might be better to consider the lower unit from
the SeaCycle, which is kinda like an outboard motor lower unit with
pedals at the top instead of a motor. You'd have to use it thru a well
in the bottom and make provisions to pull it up to clear weeds. If it's
the one I think it is, it works impressively well. I think one or two
other companies make stuff like this. Another unit is called the Spin
Fin, but I don't think it's produced yet. There's also a lightweight
paddlewheel out there for canoes but I don't know how well it works. A
guy in northeastern Canada, I forget the province, makes something
called the Fin Boat and offers plans with enough detail to make your own
propulsion unit. You might consider spending time on this list:
http://www.ihpva.org/mailman/listinfo/hpv-boats
Of course, as with all lists, take it with a grain of salt.
I think with the ratcheted propellor shaft you'd need a big flywheel so
as not to drag the stopped prop thru the water between strokes.
>
>
>
>
>>"J. R. Sloan" <jr_sloan@...>
>>wrote:
>>Actually, Bolger himself has designed a sidewheeler for two that uses
>>pedal-power, worth looking at. It's in one of the Payson books, I
>>believe, but don't recall the name offhand. Seems to me it had two-
>>peddler (pedaller?) capacity, but that maybe one person could propel
>>it at a time. The hull on it looked suspiciously like a Windsprint,
>>but then lots of the Bolger hulls go together the same way. I always
>>wondered why there couldn't be a pedal-powered, shaft-and-propeller
>>driven setup on one of these little beauties, set up like a recumbent
>>bike. The pedals could be attached to cables rather than a chain
>>drive, and the cables each routed to the shaft where they could drive
>>a separate ratcheted drive on the shaft. Wouldn't take too heavy a
>>drive unit, would be easy to work even one-legged, and could be
>>easily adapted to handcranks for paraplegic or other uses.
>>
>
>
>>
>>
Stretching a sharpie type hull is not really a good idea because as the rocker decreases due to stretching the hull out, some handling problems can occur, such as "bow steering" as the sharpie hull requires the bow out of the water to avoid handling vices in anything but dead calm water.
When a flat-bottom boat's hull is stretched it reduces the rocker as well as flattens the sheer( Unless you compensate for this when drawing up the plans or in the building !) .With a sailing boat this might not be so bad, as the boat is generally on a heel when moving and avoids this problem of being badly affected by choppy weather conditions.A rowing boat or power boat doesn't heel and in anything but calm conditions is knocked around by wave action (We're talking about displacement speeds here, not planing) so they have to be trimmed by the stern to avoid making a very erratic course.
I'm speaking from personal experience,as my father stretched a 9' 6" William Garden designed skiff to 10' 4", and we encountered these "bow steering" problems under oars and power in anything but smooth water.
As far as I can remember she sailed well though, being primarly designed as a sailing dinghy.So adapting a boat designed for one purpose to do another is sometimes not a good idea and dissapointments can happen !!!
Hugo Tyson. Tasmania
ginkepink <pa.venus@...> wrote:
Thanks for your reactions. So if I may summarize your answers and
advice: Don't touch the Bolger design's they're optimized and every
change would make it less effective. There's only one exception,
which is make it slightly longer 1', and by doing so the rocker will
decrease slightly, following the also slightly flatter curve of the
sides. In practize you say the June Bug is allready a fast and little
drag boat.
Has anyone have experienced how the JB takes waves?
I'm very much attracted by the fish tail / flipper pedal propulsion
idea. In theory this should be one of the best ways to (pedal)
propulse a boat. In practice I don't know yet, I've to do some
experiments with sizes, shapes, drive line's a.s.o. I think. And I
thought the JB would be a good platform for that.
Paul
When a flat-bottom boat's hull is stretched it reduces the rocker as well as flattens the sheer( Unless you compensate for this when drawing up the plans or in the building !) .With a sailing boat this might not be so bad, as the boat is generally on a heel when moving and avoids this problem of being badly affected by choppy weather conditions.A rowing boat or power boat doesn't heel and in anything but calm conditions is knocked around by wave action (We're talking about displacement speeds here, not planing) so they have to be trimmed by the stern to avoid making a very erratic course.
I'm speaking from personal experience,as my father stretched a 9' 6" William Garden designed skiff to 10' 4", and we encountered these "bow steering" problems under oars and power in anything but smooth water.
As far as I can remember she sailed well though, being primarly designed as a sailing dinghy.So adapting a boat designed for one purpose to do another is sometimes not a good idea and dissapointments can happen !!!
Hugo Tyson. Tasmania
ginkepink <pa.venus@...> wrote:
Thanks for your reactions. So if I may summarize your answers and
advice: Don't touch the Bolger design's they're optimized and every
change would make it less effective. There's only one exception,
which is make it slightly longer 1', and by doing so the rocker will
decrease slightly, following the also slightly flatter curve of the
sides. In practize you say the June Bug is allready a fast and little
drag boat.
Has anyone have experienced how the JB takes waves?
I'm very much attracted by the fish tail / flipper pedal propulsion
idea. In theory this should be one of the best ways to (pedal)
propulse a boat. In practice I don't know yet, I've to do some
experiments with sizes, shapes, drive line's a.s.o. I think. And I
thought the JB would be a good platform for that.
Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jack &Lois <jalo@i...> wrote:
>
> I'm in full agreement with the other Paul. Don't mess with the
rocker. That's where JB's magic lies. As I recall Phil Bolger said
the rocker COULD be decreased or increased with no loss to
performance by lengthing or shortening the boat approx 1' max either
way, respectively. I'm fasinated to hear about her performance with
kayak paddles. That's one I haven't tried. I've encountered few boats
that require less effort to propel. After an afternoon of swimming in
a remote cove on a nearby lake a couple of summers ago, my wife tied
the bowline round her waiste to see what it was like to tow the JB
swimming. I was already on board. She said it was so easy it felt
like the boat wasn't even there. In fact it was so easy she swam all
the way back across the lake (approx 1.3 km) towing the JB with me on
board. I kept telling open mouthed boaters and canoers that I was her
coach, training her for a trans Atlantic swim. I assume you do know
that Bolger has designed at least one peddle propelled boat(?).
>
> jeb, having fantacies (nightmares?) about taking on yet another
derelict Bolger boat restoration project, on the all too real rocky
shores of Fundy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your reactions. So if I may summarize your answers and
advice: Don't touch the Bolger design's they're optimized and every
change would make it less effective. There's only one exception,
which is make it slightly longer 1', and by doing so the rocker will
decrease slightly, following the also slightly flatter curve of the
sides. In practize you say the June Bug is allready a fast and little
drag boat.
Has anyone have experienced how the JB takes waves?
I'm very much attracted by the fish tail / flipper pedal propulsion
idea. In theory this should be one of the best ways to (pedal)
propulse a boat. In practice I don't know yet, I've to do some
experiments with sizes, shapes, drive line's a.s.o. I think. And I
thought the JB would be a good platform for that.
Paul
advice: Don't touch the Bolger design's they're optimized and every
change would make it less effective. There's only one exception,
which is make it slightly longer 1', and by doing so the rocker will
decrease slightly, following the also slightly flatter curve of the
sides. In practize you say the June Bug is allready a fast and little
drag boat.
Has anyone have experienced how the JB takes waves?
I'm very much attracted by the fish tail / flipper pedal propulsion
idea. In theory this should be one of the best ways to (pedal)
propulse a boat. In practice I don't know yet, I've to do some
experiments with sizes, shapes, drive line's a.s.o. I think. And I
thought the JB would be a good platform for that.
Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jack &Lois <jalo@i...> wrote:
>
> I'm in full agreement with the other Paul. Don't mess with the
rocker. That's where JB's magic lies. As I recall Phil Bolger said
the rocker COULD be decreased or increased with no loss to
performance by lengthing or shortening the boat approx 1' max either
way, respectively. I'm fasinated to hear about her performance with
kayak paddles. That's one I haven't tried. I've encountered few boats
that require less effort to propel. After an afternoon of swimming in
a remote cove on a nearby lake a couple of summers ago, my wife tied
the bowline round her waiste to see what it was like to tow the JB
swimming. I was already on board. She said it was so easy it felt
like the boat wasn't even there. In fact it was so easy she swam all
the way back across the lake (approx 1.3 km) towing the JB with me on
board. I kept telling open mouthed boaters and canoers that I was her
coach, training her for a trans Atlantic swim. I assume you do know
that Bolger has designed at least one peddle propelled boat(?).
>
> jeb, having fantacies (nightmares?) about taking on yet another
derelict Bolger boat restoration project, on the all too real rocky
shores of Fundy
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm in full agreement with the other Paul. Don't mess with the rocker. That's where JB's magic lies. As I recall Phil Bolger said the rocker COULD be decreased or increased with no loss to performance by lengthing or shortening the boat approx 1' max either way, respectively. I'm fasinated to hear about her performance with kayak paddles. That's one I haven't tried. I've encountered few boats that require less effort to propel. After an afternoon of swimming in a remote cove on a nearby lake a couple of summers ago, my wife tied the bowline round her waiste to see what it was like to tow the JB swimming. I was already on board. She said it was so easy it felt like the boat wasn't even there. In fact it was so easy she swam all the way back across the lake (approx 1.3 km) towing the JB with me on board. I kept telling open mouthed boaters and canoers that I was her coach, training her for a trans Atlantic swim. I assume you do know that Bolger has designed at least one peddle propelled boat(?).
jeb, having fantacies (nightmares?) about taking on yet another derelict Bolger boat restoration project, on the all too real rocky shores of Fundy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jeb, having fantacies (nightmares?) about taking on yet another derelict Bolger boat restoration project, on the all too real rocky shores of Fundy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>You could also considerHmmm. That seems right.
>Peero, but of course it won't be all that fast because it's short (I
>forget Craig O'Donnell's site's URL, or even how to spell his name,
>you can find the plan there.The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
Actually, Bolger himself has designed a sidewheeler for two that uses
pedal-power, worth looking at. It's in one of the Payson books, I
believe, but don't recall the name offhand. Seems to me it had two-
peddler (pedaller?) capacity, but that maybe one person could propel
it at a time. The hull on it looked suspiciously like a Windsprint,
but then lots of the Bolger hulls go together the same way. I always
wondered why there couldn't be a pedal-powered, shaft-and-propeller
driven setup on one of these little beauties, set up like a recumbent
bike. The pedals could be attached to cables rather than a chain
drive, and the cables each routed to the shaft where they could drive
a separate ratcheted drive on the shaft. Wouldn't take too heavy a
drive unit, would be easy to work even one-legged, and could be
easily adapted to handcranks for paraplegic or other uses.
pedal-power, worth looking at. It's in one of the Payson books, I
believe, but don't recall the name offhand. Seems to me it had two-
peddler (pedaller?) capacity, but that maybe one person could propel
it at a time. The hull on it looked suspiciously like a Windsprint,
but then lots of the Bolger hulls go together the same way. I always
wondered why there couldn't be a pedal-powered, shaft-and-propeller
driven setup on one of these little beauties, set up like a recumbent
bike. The pedals could be attached to cables rather than a chain
drive, and the cables each routed to the shaft where they could drive
a separate ratcheted drive on the shaft. Wouldn't take too heavy a
drive unit, would be easy to work even one-legged, and could be
easily adapted to handcranks for paraplegic or other uses.
> >boat.
> >Hi folks,
> >
> >I want to build a boat to do some experimenting with pedal
> >propulsion. It has to be a quite simple to build, but effective
> >That's how I came to the junebug. But I'm thinking of doing somepurpose.
> >modifications to make it even more effective for my sort of
> >The major modification would be to decrease the rocker, flattenthe
> >bottom, since I want to use the boat mainly on flat water(certainly
> >not on the sea).me
> >
> >My questions are, is there a better boat for this sort of purpose,
> >and is it a good idea to decrease the rocker, or would that cause
> >trouble in any way.
> >
> >Hope you experienced (Bolger) boat builders have some answers, or
> >advices for me,
> >
> >thanks,
> >Paul
> >
Congrats on the Junebug. Kind of cold, wasn't it, or are you in the
Southern Hemisphere? I should know, as I kind of recognise your email
address, or at least part of it, but I don't remember. I seriously
suspect that something must be wrong with your oars or the way they are
set up if paddling seems easier. With properly set up oars you ought to
be able to cruise along at a good pace for hours. Perhaps yours are too
long? too heavy? too short? It's also possible that you just need a bit
of practice as I've noticed that people who aren't used to rowing pop
the oars out of the locks, get them crooked, etc. There are locks that
will prevent some of this. I can go against a much stronger breeze with
a rowboat than I can fight with a lower sided canoe with paddles.
Southern Hemisphere? I should know, as I kind of recognise your email
address, or at least part of it, but I don't remember. I seriously
suspect that something must be wrong with your oars or the way they are
set up if paddling seems easier. With properly set up oars you ought to
be able to cruise along at a good pace for hours. Perhaps yours are too
long? too heavy? too short? It's also possible that you just need a bit
of practice as I've noticed that people who aren't used to rowing pop
the oars out of the locks, get them crooked, etc. There are locks that
will prevent some of this. I can go against a much stronger breeze with
a rowboat than I can fight with a lower sided canoe with paddles.
> From: "pauldayau" <wattleweedooseeds@...>
>snip
>
>>
>>
>Today The family and i went out for our first bit of june buggingfor
>the year . the lake is quite small and very shallow. i didnt bother
>with the sails , just oars,but one rowlock mont broke so i had to
>paddle back. after that I used a double kayak paddle whilst sitting
>on the stern or bow. it was soooo much easier than oarsthat i wont
>bother with them again. 2 people on the ends with paddles cold propel
>a JB easily. leave the rocker alone, shes very shallow anyway. If you
>run aground , the whole crew goes to one end , and you float off.
> What a champion boat she is!
> chers Paul
>
>
>>
>>
>>
Well, it depends. You haven't told us what kind of drive system you want
to use or how much load you want to carry. There are a number of options
with pedal propulsion. If you are just going to have one person on board
(i.e. yourself), then reducing beam as well as rocker is good. Bolger
advocates, where possible, having the curve of the bottom and the curve
of the sides match so the water doesn't have to go around a corner from
the side to the bottom. For just one person, you might consider a
"canoe" or "pirogue" type design, such as the free one on
www.bateau.com (sorry, not a Bolger design). You could also consider
Peero, but of course it won't be all that fast because it's short (I
forget Craig O'Donnell's site's URL, or even how to spell his name, but
you can find the plan there.) And if you want to go fast, pedal boats
allow a lot of power so you might want to find something with a long
water line, say 16 or more feet. (Michalaks Batto?) Your choice also
depends on the conditions where you will use the boat.
to use or how much load you want to carry. There are a number of options
with pedal propulsion. If you are just going to have one person on board
(i.e. yourself), then reducing beam as well as rocker is good. Bolger
advocates, where possible, having the curve of the bottom and the curve
of the sides match so the water doesn't have to go around a corner from
the side to the bottom. For just one person, you might consider a
"canoe" or "pirogue" type design, such as the free one on
www.bateau.com (sorry, not a Bolger design). You could also consider
Peero, but of course it won't be all that fast because it's short (I
forget Craig O'Donnell's site's URL, or even how to spell his name, but
you can find the plan there.) And if you want to go fast, pedal boats
allow a lot of power so you might want to find something with a long
water line, say 16 or more feet. (Michalaks Batto?) Your choice also
depends on the conditions where you will use the boat.
> From: "ginkepink" <pa.venus@...>
>wrote:
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I want to build a boat to do some experimenting with pedal
>propulsion. It has to be a quite simple to build, but effective boat.
>That's how I came to the junebug. But I'm thinking of doing some
>modifications to make it even more effective for my sort of purpose.
>The major modification would be to decrease the rocker, flatten the
>bottom, since I want to use the boat mainly on flat water (certainly
>not on the sea).
>
>My questions are, is there a better boat for this sort of purpose,
>and is it a good idea to decrease the rocker, or would that cause me
>trouble in any way.
>
>Hope you experienced (Bolger) boat builders have some answers, or
>advices for me,
>
>thanks,
>Paul
>
--- ginkepink wrote:
PCB too has 'experimented' with
pedal propulsion. See Madeline.
http://www.instantboats.com/madeline.htm
I know nothing, but it seems that
PCB chose a hull less rocker than
the Junebug.
> I want to build a boat to doSounds fun.
> some experimenting with
> pedal propulsion. It has to be a
> quite simple to build,
> but effective boat.
PCB too has 'experimented' with
pedal propulsion. See Madeline.
http://www.instantboats.com/madeline.htm
I know nothing, but it seems that
PCB chose a hull less rocker than
the Junebug.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ginkepink" <pa.venus@w...> wrote:
the year . the lake is quite small and very shallow. i didnt bother
with the sails , just oars,but one rowlock mont broke so i had to
paddle back. after that I used a double kayak paddle whilst sitting
on the stern or bow. it was soooo much easier than oarsthat i wont
bother with them again. 2 people on the ends with paddles cold propel
a JB easily. leave the rocker alone, shes very shallow anyway. If you
run aground , the whole crew goes to one end , and you float off.
What a champion boat she is!
chers Paul
> Hi folks,boat.
>
> I want to build a boat to do some experimenting with pedal
> propulsion. It has to be a quite simple to build, but effective
> That's how I came to the junebug. But I'm thinking of doing somepurpose.
> modifications to make it even more effective for my sort of
> The major modification would be to decrease the rocker, flatten the(certainly
> bottom, since I want to use the boat mainly on flat water
> not on the sea).me
>
> My questions are, is there a better boat for this sort of purpose,
> and is it a good idea to decrease the rocker, or would that cause
> trouble in any way.Today The family and i went out for our first bit of june buggingfor
the year . the lake is quite small and very shallow. i didnt bother
with the sails , just oars,but one rowlock mont broke so i had to
paddle back. after that I used a double kayak paddle whilst sitting
on the stern or bow. it was soooo much easier than oarsthat i wont
bother with them again. 2 people on the ends with paddles cold propel
a JB easily. leave the rocker alone, shes very shallow anyway. If you
run aground , the whole crew goes to one end , and you float off.
What a champion boat she is!
chers Paul
>
> Hope you experienced (Bolger) boat builders have some answers, or
> advices for me,
>
> thanks,
> Paul
Hi folks,
I want to build a boat to do some experimenting with pedal
propulsion. It has to be a quite simple to build, but effective boat.
That's how I came to the junebug. But I'm thinking of doing some
modifications to make it even more effective for my sort of purpose.
The major modification would be to decrease the rocker, flatten the
bottom, since I want to use the boat mainly on flat water (certainly
not on the sea).
My questions are, is there a better boat for this sort of purpose,
and is it a good idea to decrease the rocker, or would that cause me
trouble in any way.
Hope you experienced (Bolger) boat builders have some answers, or
advices for me,
thanks,
Paul
I want to build a boat to do some experimenting with pedal
propulsion. It has to be a quite simple to build, but effective boat.
That's how I came to the junebug. But I'm thinking of doing some
modifications to make it even more effective for my sort of purpose.
The major modification would be to decrease the rocker, flatten the
bottom, since I want to use the boat mainly on flat water (certainly
not on the sea).
My questions are, is there a better boat for this sort of purpose,
and is it a good idea to decrease the rocker, or would that cause me
trouble in any way.
Hope you experienced (Bolger) boat builders have some answers, or
advices for me,
thanks,
Paul