Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger "Box Keel" More Thanks
You got it. I wouldn't worry about planing since your concern addressed
"low speed handling." You might want to consider adding a white light to
the bow and having the side lights on exchangeable brackets.
As for "looking silly," I thought denizens of this list treasured function
over appearance.
Roger
"low speed handling." You might want to consider adding a white light to
the bow and having the side lights on exchangeable brackets.
As for "looking silly," I thought denizens of this list treasured function
over appearance.
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: "antec007" <pateson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger "Box Keel" More Thanks
> Thanks for the continuing help.
>
> It goes OK in reverse. Takes a while to plane. <g>
> In fact, if I Really Need to be careful around other boats or docks,
> I just put it in reverse and drive around backwards.
> I usually back away from docks until I am far enough away that I am
> not apt to run into or over anything.
> I have the wheel mounted on a bulkhead, just in front of the motor,
> so I Can just drive it around, backwards, like a car.
> The controls are at my left hand (Starboard side of the cockpit)and
> when I am facing backward pushing the remote the way I want to go
> works great, too. Just have to remember the throttle is backward,
> when I am facing backward.
> The motor pulls me where I want to go, so windage is not a big
> concern when driving around backwards.
> But, I Really Looks Silly and I do have a little concern about how I
> might look to people that otherwise might admire the Looks of my nice
> little wooden cabin cruiser.
> And, I do Need to go forward at slow speeds too.
> Like when I try to drive the boat onto the trailer.
> (But, I'd rather Look Silly than crash.)
>
> So, What Was your idea?
>
> Pat Patteson
> Molalla, Oregon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > How well does the motor move the boat in reverse?
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@s...
> >http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
> >
> > > The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
> > > 8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point
> > > make for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
> >
> > > John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
> > > alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
> > > danger more than once.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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(978) 282-1349
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> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Thanks for the continuing help.
It goes OK in reverse. Takes a while to plane. <g>
In fact, if I Really Need to be careful around other boats or docks,
I just put it in reverse and drive around backwards.
I usually back away from docks until I am far enough away that I am
not apt to run into or over anything.
I have the wheel mounted on a bulkhead, just in front of the motor,
so I Can just drive it around, backwards, like a car.
The controls are at my left hand (Starboard side of the cockpit)and
when I am facing backward pushing the remote the way I want to go
works great, too. Just have to remember the throttle is backward,
when I am facing backward.
The motor pulls me where I want to go, so windage is not a big
concern when driving around backwards.
But, I Really Looks Silly and I do have a little concern about how I
might look to people that otherwise might admire the Looks of my nice
little wooden cabin cruiser.
And, I do Need to go forward at slow speeds too.
Like when I try to drive the boat onto the trailer.
(But, I'd rather Look Silly than crash.)
So, What Was your idea?
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
It goes OK in reverse. Takes a while to plane. <g>
In fact, if I Really Need to be careful around other boats or docks,
I just put it in reverse and drive around backwards.
I usually back away from docks until I am far enough away that I am
not apt to run into or over anything.
I have the wheel mounted on a bulkhead, just in front of the motor,
so I Can just drive it around, backwards, like a car.
The controls are at my left hand (Starboard side of the cockpit)and
when I am facing backward pushing the remote the way I want to go
works great, too. Just have to remember the throttle is backward,
when I am facing backward.
The motor pulls me where I want to go, so windage is not a big
concern when driving around backwards.
But, I Really Looks Silly and I do have a little concern about how I
might look to people that otherwise might admire the Looks of my nice
little wooden cabin cruiser.
And, I do Need to go forward at slow speeds too.
Like when I try to drive the boat onto the trailer.
(But, I'd rather Look Silly than crash.)
So, What Was your idea?
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> How well does the motor move the boat in reverse?
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
> >
> > The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
>
> > The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
> > 8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point
> > make for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
>
> > John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
> > alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
> > danger more than once.
That might be a good, simple solution.
At least it might give me some idea If a board will work and how big
a board would need to be.
I have 1" drain holes at the bottom of each, aft corner of the anchor
well. About a foot above the water line and couple of feet from the
stem.
I could run a threaded rod all the way through both holes to give me
a firm anchor point for a bow leeboard.
That would be stronger than trying to hang one over the 4' side.
I'd have to extend a support block a little so I could have it
parallel with the centerline of the boat and maybe even have enough
room for it to kick up some so I Could run up on shore.
I think I would rather have the board straight. Having it "help"
turn the boat toward the dock Might be a good thing, but might have
unseen problems. I'd have to crab along if I Did want to go straight
for a while.
I would also like to be able to do it single handed if I have to and
it Is nearly 20 to the bow from the wheel so swapping sides might be
a problem.
But, you have given me what Sounds like a simple idea.
(They All Sound simple at first, don't they.)
I'm still not crazy about cutting Any holes in the bottom of a
perfectly good hull.
Even if it is in a watertight place.
No holes below the water line yet. I'd like to keep it that way.
Your Idea would allow a board with no holes in the bottom.
I had a Real Bad experience when a little hidden drain plug broke and
fell out of a stern drain hole of a 21' Glass Cabin Cruiser and
nearly sank the boat from under me. Thankfully, still have the boat.
It Would have sunk and the lake is at least 80' deep where we were
sinking. "Fish Structure"
The water was nearly over the Stern Drive motor in the Deep V stern,
and several inches deep in the back of the cockpit before we even
noticed it. Didn't know it was "Only a Drain Plug" until we pulled
the boat out on the trailer.
(I hadn't heard my wife scream like That before.)
So, NO Intentional Holes in this boat, if I can help it.
Thanks
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bosquette" <sbosquette@c...>
wrote:
At least it might give me some idea If a board will work and how big
a board would need to be.
I have 1" drain holes at the bottom of each, aft corner of the anchor
well. About a foot above the water line and couple of feet from the
stem.
I could run a threaded rod all the way through both holes to give me
a firm anchor point for a bow leeboard.
That would be stronger than trying to hang one over the 4' side.
I'd have to extend a support block a little so I could have it
parallel with the centerline of the boat and maybe even have enough
room for it to kick up some so I Could run up on shore.
I think I would rather have the board straight. Having it "help"
turn the boat toward the dock Might be a good thing, but might have
unseen problems. I'd have to crab along if I Did want to go straight
for a while.
I would also like to be able to do it single handed if I have to and
it Is nearly 20 to the bow from the wheel so swapping sides might be
a problem.
But, you have given me what Sounds like a simple idea.
(They All Sound simple at first, don't they.)
I'm still not crazy about cutting Any holes in the bottom of a
perfectly good hull.
Even if it is in a watertight place.
No holes below the water line yet. I'd like to keep it that way.
Your Idea would allow a board with no holes in the bottom.
I had a Real Bad experience when a little hidden drain plug broke and
fell out of a stern drain hole of a 21' Glass Cabin Cruiser and
nearly sank the boat from under me. Thankfully, still have the boat.
It Would have sunk and the lake is at least 80' deep where we were
sinking. "Fish Structure"
The water was nearly over the Stern Drive motor in the Deep V stern,
and several inches deep in the back of the cockpit before we even
noticed it. Didn't know it was "Only a Drain Plug" until we pulled
the boat out on the trailer.
(I hadn't heard my wife scream like That before.)
So, NO Intentional Holes in this boat, if I can help it.
Thanks
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bosquette" <sbosquette@c...>
wrote:
> While reading your thread Pat the thought occured to me about usinga
> leeboard that would somehow slide over the gunwale in you openanchor
> space. Kind of like leeboards on various Bolger designs. It couldbe
> used only when approaching a dock and be stored somewhere out ofthe
> way. It would avoid cutting a hole in your boat and may be just asyou
> affective. For instance even if the board was aligned to the shape
> of the hull forward on the port side and you where docking on the
> starboard side wouldn't it act like a rudder and help point the bow
> starboard?? You could use it on either side depending which side
> are docking to. Kind of an unproven idea but might be worthIn
> considering.
>
> Steve Bosquette
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
> > Thank you all for your replies.
> >
> > And, not even a Bolger Boat.
> > But I am a Bolger type guy and the PK is a
> > Bolger "Type" boat.
> > He just didn't have The Design I was looking for,
> > so I had to modify a modified.
> > I have built a couple Real Bolger boats.
> >
> > More to think about.
> >
> > I am still not sure whether I was asking about a box keel or a
> shoe,
> > but the replies showed some actual boat examples of what I have
> been
> > considering and the concepts were what I was thinking about.
> > With little rocker to the PK bottom the box or shoe probably
> wouldn't
> > work very well.
> >
> > I think Mark summed it up with
> > "Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind.
> > Bolger's wonderful term, it's the, `Defect of their virtues.'"make
> >
> > The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
> > I was just hoping for a "Twofer" and maybe get a little less
> pounding
> > with the same fix.
> > The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
> > 8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point
> > for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.I
> > John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
> > alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
> > danger more than once.
> > John is a Very Nice guy so I Have to come up with Some fix before
> > hurt him.installing
> >
> > I can minimize most pounding by just slowing down.
> > (But then I blow away. <g>)
> >
> > After seeing the Windermere drawings I am reconsidering
> awatertight
> > forward Centerboard.
> > That might be a more simple solution.
> > A Very "Bolgeresque" solution.
> > I do have a place for a small trunk forward of a forward
> > bulkhead. Right now it only contains air, as a small floatationbe
> tank.
> > (There is a separate, self draining open anchor well above it.)
> > A centerboard trunk added there would not compromise the rest of
> the
> > boat and could be made to drain when out of the water.
> > I had originally thought of adding a forward board when I
> discovered
> > how Bad the handling was in the wind, but was concerned with it
> > jamming with mud or rocks, but properly designed that might not
> > much problem.of
> > The board would be very far forward so it should provide a lot
> > leverage.20+MPH.
> > With the board retracted the bottom of the trunk would be out of
> the
> > water at any moderate speed so it shouldn't effect higher speed
> > operations or the 0" forward draft so nice for beaching.
> > Any permanent Box or Shoe would make beaching a not as nice as it
> is
> > now.
> > I just have to make Sure the Board Is Retracted at higher speed.
> > That board and leverage might prove to be Very Exciting at
> >myself.
> > Gonna have to go up and take a look at the boat and see how it
> might
> > work.
> > I might be able to add a board without having to turn the boat.
> > My PK is Only 20'and less than 1000 pounds, empty.
> > That is about as large as I want to try to turn Again, by
> > Tires, time, levers and ropes.is
> > You folks have some Big boats a builing.
> > The first step for anybody contemplating one of Bolger's lager
> boats
> > should be "Start making friends with a lot of Big Strong people."
> > I did see where the builder of a boat somewhat larger than mine
> added
> > steel pipes to the bow and transom of his boat so during
> construction
> > he could turn it like it was on a "Spit".
> > Very Cool.
> >
> > Thanks to all again.
> > You were a help.
> > I have a couple of months to come up with Some solution or John
> > not going to tell me where the next Messabout is.count
> >
> > Pat Patteson (Still "Designing" the PK-20)
> > Molalla, Oregon
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> > > Hi, Pat.
> > >
> > > Here are some comments Philip Bolger made about box keels.
> > >
> > > On Hawkeye:
> > > "In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this is
> exacerbated
> > by vibration in the
> > > flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you
> > blowing away whilespeeds.
> > > maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the high
> > house. She tracks hands off
> > > at all speeds and regardless of waves, turns short at all
> > She doesn't bank herone's
> > > turns, but doesn't skid or trip.
> > >
> > > On Sneakeasy v.2
> > > "[Don Carron] was concerned about control. Flat bottomed, sharp
> > bowed boats will run wild
> > > on their helms if they put their bows in solid water. Long
> > like Sneakeasy aren't asproblems.
> > > bad as shorter ones... This one won't have any tracking
> > >the
> > > On Microtrawler:
> > > "These shapes are not pleasant to ride at the wrong speed in
> > wrong length of head sea.reduce
> > > Running down a sea they're very good, tracking straight and
> keeping
> > their chins up and
> > > they're steady in a beam sea. Though hard riding in a head sea,
> > they're dry, and they're
> > > not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
> > >
> > > "The origin of the concept was an attempt to do something about
> the
> > plowing, skidding and
> > > air ingestion of a garvey by adding buoyancy under the garvey's
> > toboggan bow.
> > >
> > > #########
> > >
> > > The garvey bow isn't so different from a pointy boat with a lot
> of
> > rocker at the bow, only
> > > marginally wider.
> > > I recall Bolger's reference to the efficacy of a 2x4 or even
> > smaller shoe was only with
> > > regard to skidding, though skids and skegs of various sorts can
> > improve tracking quite a lot.
> > >
> > > Adding one of these to an existing boat requires accurate
> > calculation and some major
> > > surgery. If you look at the upper chine lines on Bolger's box
> > keeled instances, they are
> > > all cut quite highly.
> > >
> > > Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind.
> In
> > Bolger's wonderful
> > > term, it's the, "Defect of their virtues."
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:52 -0000, Pat wrote:
> > > > > I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the
> > Bolger "Box
> > > > > Keel"
> > > > > I have heard that even a very small box keel can help
> > poundingmy
> > > > > on a flat bottomed boat.
> > > > > Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any info appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to
> PK-to
> > 20 to
> > > > > help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel
> idea
> > is as
> > > > > good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those
> > help
> > > > > with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> > > > > The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
> > > >
How well does the motor move the boat in reverse?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
>
> The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
> The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
> 8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point
> make for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
> John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
> alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
> danger more than once.
While reading your thread Pat the thought occured to me about using a
leeboard that would somehow slide over the gunwale in you open anchor
space. Kind of like leeboards on various Bolger designs. It could be
used only when approaching a dock and be stored somewhere out of the
way. It would avoid cutting a hole in your boat and may be just as
affective. For instance even if the board was aligned to the shape
of the hull forward on the port side and you where docking on the
starboard side wouldn't it act like a rudder and help point the bow
starboard?? You could use it on either side depending which side you
are docking to. Kind of an unproven idea but might be worth
considering.
Steve Bosquette
leeboard that would somehow slide over the gunwale in you open anchor
space. Kind of like leeboards on various Bolger designs. It could be
used only when approaching a dock and be stored somewhere out of the
way. It would avoid cutting a hole in your boat and may be just as
affective. For instance even if the board was aligned to the shape
of the hull forward on the port side and you where docking on the
starboard side wouldn't it act like a rudder and help point the bow
starboard?? You could use it on either side depending which side you
are docking to. Kind of an unproven idea but might be worth
considering.
Steve Bosquette
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
> Thank you all for your replies.
>
> And, not even a Bolger Boat.
> But I am a Bolger type guy and the PK is a
> Bolger "Type" boat.
> He just didn't have The Design I was looking for,
> so I had to modify a modified.
> I have built a couple Real Bolger boats.
>
> More to think about.
>
> I am still not sure whether I was asking about a box keel or a
shoe,
> but the replies showed some actual boat examples of what I have
been
> considering and the concepts were what I was thinking about.
> With little rocker to the PK bottom the box or shoe probably
wouldn't
> work very well.
>
> I think Mark summed it up with
> "Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In
> Bolger's wonderful term, it's the, `Defect of their virtues.'"
>
> The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
> I was just hoping for a "Twofer" and maybe get a little less
pounding
> with the same fix.
> The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
> 8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point make
> for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
> John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
> alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
> danger more than once.
> John is a Very Nice guy so I Have to come up with Some fix before I
> hurt him.
>
> I can minimize most pounding by just slowing down.
> (But then I blow away. <g>)
>
> After seeing the Windermere drawings I am reconsidering installing
a
> forward Centerboard.
> That might be a more simple solution.
> A Very "Bolgeresque" solution.
> I do have a place for a small trunk forward of a forward watertight
> bulkhead. Right now it only contains air, as a small floatation
tank.
> (There is a separate, self draining open anchor well above it.)
> A centerboard trunk added there would not compromise the rest of
the
> boat and could be made to drain when out of the water.
> I had originally thought of adding a forward board when I
discovered
> how Bad the handling was in the wind, but was concerned with it
> jamming with mud or rocks, but properly designed that might not be
> much problem.
> The board would be very far forward so it should provide a lot of
> leverage.
> With the board retracted the bottom of the trunk would be out of
the
> water at any moderate speed so it shouldn't effect higher speed
> operations or the 0" forward draft so nice for beaching.
> Any permanent Box or Shoe would make beaching a not as nice as it
is
> now.
> I just have to make Sure the Board Is Retracted at higher speed.
> That board and leverage might prove to be Very Exciting at 20+MPH.
>
> Gonna have to go up and take a look at the boat and see how it
might
> work.
> I might be able to add a board without having to turn the boat.
> My PK is Only 20'and less than 1000 pounds, empty.
> That is about as large as I want to try to turn Again, by myself.
> Tires, time, levers and ropes.
> You folks have some Big boats a builing.
> The first step for anybody contemplating one of Bolger's lager
boats
> should be "Start making friends with a lot of Big Strong people."
> I did see where the builder of a boat somewhat larger than mine
added
> steel pipes to the bow and transom of his boat so during
construction
> he could turn it like it was on a "Spit".
> Very Cool.
>
> Thanks to all again.
> You were a help.
> I have a couple of months to come up with Some solution or John is
> not going to tell me where the next Messabout is.
>
> Pat Patteson (Still "Designing" the PK-20)
> Molalla, Oregon
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> > Hi, Pat.
> >
> > Here are some comments Philip Bolger made about box keels.
> >
> > On Hawkeye:
> > "In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this is
exacerbated
> by vibration in the
> > flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you count
> blowing away while
> > maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the high
> house. She tracks hands off
> > at all speeds and regardless of waves, turns short at all speeds.
> She doesn't bank her
> > turns, but doesn't skid or trip.
> >
> > On Sneakeasy v.2
> > "[Don Carron] was concerned about control. Flat bottomed, sharp
> bowed boats will run wild
> > on their helms if they put their bows in solid water. Long one's
> like Sneakeasy aren't as
> > bad as shorter ones... This one won't have any tracking problems.
> >
> > On Microtrawler:
> > "These shapes are not pleasant to ride at the wrong speed in the
> wrong length of head sea.
> > Running down a sea they're very good, tracking straight and
keeping
> their chins up and
> > they're steady in a beam sea. Though hard riding in a head sea,
> they're dry, and they're
> > not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
> >
> > "The origin of the concept was an attempt to do something about
the
> plowing, skidding and
> > air ingestion of a garvey by adding buoyancy under the garvey's
> toboggan bow.
> >
> > #########
> >
> > The garvey bow isn't so different from a pointy boat with a lot
of
> rocker at the bow, only
> > marginally wider.
> > I recall Bolger's reference to the efficacy of a 2x4 or even
> smaller shoe was only with
> > regard to skidding, though skids and skegs of various sorts can
> improve tracking quite a lot.
> >
> > Adding one of these to an existing boat requires accurate
> calculation and some major
> > surgery. If you look at the upper chine lines on Bolger's box
> keeled instances, they are
> > all cut quite highly.
> >
> > Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind.
In
> Bolger's wonderful
> > term, it's the, "Defect of their virtues."
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:52 -0000, Pat wrote:
> > > > I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the
> Bolger "Box
> > > > Keel"
> > > > I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce
> pounding
> > > > on a flat bottomed boat.
> > > > Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
> > > >
> > > > Any info appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my
PK-
> 20 to
> > > > help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel
idea
> is as
> > > > good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to
> help
> > > > with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> > > > The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
> > >
Thank you all for your replies.
And, not even a Bolger Boat.
But I am a Bolger type guy and the PK is a
Bolger "Type" boat.
He just didn't have The Design I was looking for,
so I had to modify a modified.
I have built a couple Real Bolger boats.
More to think about.
I am still not sure whether I was asking about a box keel or a shoe,
but the replies showed some actual boat examples of what I have been
considering and the concepts were what I was thinking about.
With little rocker to the PK bottom the box or shoe probably wouldn't
work very well.
I think Mark summed it up with
"Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In
Bolger's wonderful term, it's the, `Defect of their virtues.'"
The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
I was just hoping for a "Twofer" and maybe get a little less pounding
with the same fix.
The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point make
for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
danger more than once.
John is a Very Nice guy so I Have to come up with Some fix before I
hurt him.
I can minimize most pounding by just slowing down.
(But then I blow away. <g>)
After seeing the Windermere drawings I am reconsidering installing a
forward Centerboard.
That might be a more simple solution.
A Very "Bolgeresque" solution.
I do have a place for a small trunk forward of a forward watertight
bulkhead. Right now it only contains air, as a small floatation tank.
(There is a separate, self draining open anchor well above it.)
A centerboard trunk added there would not compromise the rest of the
boat and could be made to drain when out of the water.
I had originally thought of adding a forward board when I discovered
how Bad the handling was in the wind, but was concerned with it
jamming with mud or rocks, but properly designed that might not be
much problem.
The board would be very far forward so it should provide a lot of
leverage.
With the board retracted the bottom of the trunk would be out of the
water at any moderate speed so it shouldn't effect higher speed
operations or the 0" forward draft so nice for beaching.
Any permanent Box or Shoe would make beaching a not as nice as it is
now.
I just have to make Sure the Board Is Retracted at higher speed.
That board and leverage might prove to be Very Exciting at 20+MPH.
Gonna have to go up and take a look at the boat and see how it might
work.
I might be able to add a board without having to turn the boat.
My PK is Only 20'and less than 1000 pounds, empty.
That is about as large as I want to try to turn Again, by myself.
Tires, time, levers and ropes.
You folks have some Big boats a builing.
The first step for anybody contemplating one of Bolger's lager boats
should be "Start making friends with a lot of Big Strong people."
I did see where the builder of a boat somewhat larger than mine added
steel pipes to the bow and transom of his boat so during construction
he could turn it like it was on a "Spit".
Very Cool.
Thanks to all again.
You were a help.
I have a couple of months to come up with Some solution or John is
not going to tell me where the next Messabout is.
Pat Patteson (Still "Designing" the PK-20)
Molalla, Oregon
And, not even a Bolger Boat.
But I am a Bolger type guy and the PK is a
Bolger "Type" boat.
He just didn't have The Design I was looking for,
so I had to modify a modified.
I have built a couple Real Bolger boats.
More to think about.
I am still not sure whether I was asking about a box keel or a shoe,
but the replies showed some actual boat examples of what I have been
considering and the concepts were what I was thinking about.
With little rocker to the PK bottom the box or shoe probably wouldn't
work very well.
I think Mark summed it up with
"Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In
Bolger's wonderful term, it's the, `Defect of their virtues.'"
The "blowing off in the wind" has been my main concern.
I was just hoping for a "Twofer" and maybe get a little less pounding
with the same fix.
The 4' Bow and "House", 0" draft forward and
8" draft aft (plus the OB lower unit) acting as a pivot point make
for a Very good 20 foot weathervane.
John Kohnen can testify that my boat blows off the wind quite
alarmingly at very slow speed, and has put him and his boat(s)in
danger more than once.
John is a Very Nice guy so I Have to come up with Some fix before I
hurt him.
I can minimize most pounding by just slowing down.
(But then I blow away. <g>)
After seeing the Windermere drawings I am reconsidering installing a
forward Centerboard.
That might be a more simple solution.
A Very "Bolgeresque" solution.
I do have a place for a small trunk forward of a forward watertight
bulkhead. Right now it only contains air, as a small floatation tank.
(There is a separate, self draining open anchor well above it.)
A centerboard trunk added there would not compromise the rest of the
boat and could be made to drain when out of the water.
I had originally thought of adding a forward board when I discovered
how Bad the handling was in the wind, but was concerned with it
jamming with mud or rocks, but properly designed that might not be
much problem.
The board would be very far forward so it should provide a lot of
leverage.
With the board retracted the bottom of the trunk would be out of the
water at any moderate speed so it shouldn't effect higher speed
operations or the 0" forward draft so nice for beaching.
Any permanent Box or Shoe would make beaching a not as nice as it is
now.
I just have to make Sure the Board Is Retracted at higher speed.
That board and leverage might prove to be Very Exciting at 20+MPH.
Gonna have to go up and take a look at the boat and see how it might
work.
I might be able to add a board without having to turn the boat.
My PK is Only 20'and less than 1000 pounds, empty.
That is about as large as I want to try to turn Again, by myself.
Tires, time, levers and ropes.
You folks have some Big boats a builing.
The first step for anybody contemplating one of Bolger's lager boats
should be "Start making friends with a lot of Big Strong people."
I did see where the builder of a boat somewhat larger than mine added
steel pipes to the bow and transom of his boat so during construction
he could turn it like it was on a "Spit".
Very Cool.
Thanks to all again.
You were a help.
I have a couple of months to come up with Some solution or John is
not going to tell me where the next Messabout is.
Pat Patteson (Still "Designing" the PK-20)
Molalla, Oregon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> Hi, Pat.
>
> Here are some comments Philip Bolger made about box keels.
>
> On Hawkeye:
> "In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this is exacerbated
by vibration in the
> flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you count
blowing away while
> maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the high
house. She tracks hands off
> at all speeds and regardless of waves, turns short at all speeds.
She doesn't bank her
> turns, but doesn't skid or trip.
>
> On Sneakeasy v.2
> "[Don Carron] was concerned about control. Flat bottomed, sharp
bowed boats will run wild
> on their helms if they put their bows in solid water. Long one's
like Sneakeasy aren't as
> bad as shorter ones... This one won't have any tracking problems.
>
> On Microtrawler:
> "These shapes are not pleasant to ride at the wrong speed in the
wrong length of head sea.
> Running down a sea they're very good, tracking straight and keeping
their chins up and
> they're steady in a beam sea. Though hard riding in a head sea,
they're dry, and they're
> not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
>
> "The origin of the concept was an attempt to do something about the
plowing, skidding and
> air ingestion of a garvey by adding buoyancy under the garvey's
toboggan bow.
>
> #########
>
> The garvey bow isn't so different from a pointy boat with a lot of
rocker at the bow, only
> marginally wider.
> I recall Bolger's reference to the efficacy of a 2x4 or even
smaller shoe was only with
> regard to skidding, though skids and skegs of various sorts can
improve tracking quite a lot.
>
> Adding one of these to an existing boat requires accurate
calculation and some major
> surgery. If you look at the upper chine lines on Bolger's box
keeled instances, they are
> all cut quite highly.
>
> Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In
Bolger's wonderful
> term, it's the, "Defect of their virtues."
>
> Best wishes,
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:52 -0000, Pat wrote:
> > > I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the
Bolger "Box
> > > Keel"
> > > I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce
pounding
> > > on a flat bottomed boat.
> > > Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
> > >
> > > Any info appreciated.
> > >
> > > I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-
20 to
> > > help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea
is as
> > > good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to
help
> > > with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> > > The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
> >
--- Hugo Tyson wrote:
Messing About in Boats and buying
'back issues' of his magazine's three
part feature on Yonder.
A scan of one of the photos from
these articles is here:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/yonder.gif
> Are there any drawings/photos of this...sailboat?I recommend writing Bob Hicks at
Messing About in Boats and buying
'back issues' of his magazine's three
part feature on Yonder.
A scan of one of the photos from
these articles is here:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/yonder.gif
--- Peter Lenihan wrote:
these challenges, and I admit to leaving out
all their details in my three sentence summary.
In the MAIB write up, they [SA] suggest the use
'I-beam' gantry(s) and chain hoists to move the
transom and bulkheads from fabrication table to
hull assembly.
And, for sure, a rented crane would be used to
pick the boat from shop to hired 18 wheel truck
for launch.
Yonder is a large boat, no doubt, but I think
it is 'doable' in a backyard amateur setting.
No signs of 'cabin fever' yet here in 'totally
awesome' sunny California, dude! Perhaps, the
cold and dark might affect my optimism, and
my tendancy to dream of building big Bolger
boats? Eh?
<big grin>
> This is a perfect example; a very heavyActually, to PB&F's credit, they do address
> and involved process is addressed in three
> sentences. Nowhere are the real
> world challenges...
these challenges, and I admit to leaving out
all their details in my three sentence summary.
In the MAIB write up, they [SA] suggest the use
'I-beam' gantry(s) and chain hoists to move the
transom and bulkheads from fabrication table to
hull assembly.
And, for sure, a rented crane would be used to
pick the boat from shop to hired 18 wheel truck
for launch.
Yonder is a large boat, no doubt, but I think
it is 'doable' in a backyard amateur setting.
> dreaded"cabin fever" setting<big grin>
No signs of 'cabin fever' yet here in 'totally
awesome' sunny California, dude! Perhaps, the
cold and dark might affect my optimism, and
my tendancy to dream of building big Bolger
boats? Eh?
<big grin>
Are there any drawings/photos of this unusual sounding and most likely odd but possibly wonderful looking sailboat?
Hugo Tyson Tasmania.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
--- jhkohnen wrote:
[in my opinion] the latest culmination
of PB&F creativity.
The sailboat Yonder 30' x 10'6" uses a
box keel for all the familiar reasons,
without a need to 'flip' the hull. Only
the box keel needs to be flipped.
hull assembly is then rocked to one side and then
to the next while the hull sides are strip planked
and fiberglassed.
In the entire process, no piece is so large that
it cannot be manhandled.
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Hugo Tyson Tasmania.
Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
--- jhkohnen wrote:
>Including also "Yonder" a recent and
[in my opinion] the latest culmination
of PB&F creativity.
The sailboat Yonder 30' x 10'6" uses a
box keel for all the familiar reasons,
without a need to 'flip' the hull. Only
the box keel needs to be flipped.
hull assembly is then rocked to one side and then
to the next while the hull sides are strip planked
and fiberglassed.
In the entire process, no piece is so large that
it cannot be manhandled.
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
things about some of Bolgers larger designs is that, they are
sometimes so dangerously handsome,it is easy for an eager builder to
get swept right off ones feet into thinking,"I can build that"
without taking the time to think through the entire building process.
At the scale such designs are commonly viewed, something gets lost in
projecting its true size.
Furthermore,unless you have a nice big indoor shop/garage/warehouse,
pains are going to have to be taken towards elaborating temporary
outdoor structures to support and assist in the handling of some of
the larger sections along with a means to proctect unfinished exposed
boat parts from such nasties as rain or snow.
Mind you,none of this is really"end of the world" crisis stuff, but
certainly helpful to anyone seriously considering one of the bigger
designs,especially if ones approach to problem solving does not
involve simply reaching into the wallet for fist fulls of money and
hurling it at the"problem" until it just goes away.
Surprisingly,no book that I am aware of has been printed which
focuses solely on methods and devices dedicated to the safe handling
of large pieces for amateur boatbuilders.Certainly,our Hero has seen
enough in his life-time to fill such a book with all sorts of crafty
ideas for the dedicated amateur builder working in less then pro-shop
settings. Such a book would also increase the probability that some
of the bigger designs actually get built by eliminating what would
otherwise appear as too daunting a task for some amateur builders.
addressed in three sentences. Nowhere are the real world challenges
of raising and plumbing those frames or transom mentioned.These
elements will not just float in thin air while we get the deck laid
down.And yes,at some point many sheet of plywood are going to have to
be raised up onto the tops of those frames and permanently secured
without throwing the works out of true.Those upper hull side panels
too will require a fair amount of serious work to get just right....
Please do not take this wrong. I love this particular design and
would have been sorely tempted to build one too were it not for a
lovely bit of work-in-progress called WINDERMERE gobbling up my time
and money.Rather,it is the absence of all the supporting characters
not mentioned that troubles me.How many of these boats will ever see
the light of day by an amateur builder? How many will simply be
abandoned when it all just gets"too big"? Thankfully or sadly, I
don't suppose we'll ever know,but show me a design and/or book which
goes into all the un-written nasty bits required to see a big boat
through till the end, and I'm willing to wagger a higher successful
build rate :-)
Sorry for running off at the mouth, must be the early symptoms of the
dreaded"cabin fever" setting in as I watch another series of days
going to waste thanks to temperatures just a cats hair above
freezing,lots of ice cold rain and no end in sight while I have me a
boat to build........arrrrg!....and to think that some folks are
labouring through temperatures in the mid 80's as I write.....it's
enough to drive any sane person right around the bend and take up
stamp collecting!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,climatically challenged along the dreary shores of the
St.Lawrence..................
> The sailboat Yonder 30' x 10'6" uses aAnd that is no "small reason" either:-). One of the fascinating
> box keel for all the familiar reasons,
> but also for the [I understand] 'new' reason
> which is to simplify the 'home build-ability'
> sequence: by allowing Yonder to be built
> without a need to 'flip' the hull. Only
> the box keel needs to be flipped.
things about some of Bolgers larger designs is that, they are
sometimes so dangerously handsome,it is easy for an eager builder to
get swept right off ones feet into thinking,"I can build that"
without taking the time to think through the entire building process.
At the scale such designs are commonly viewed, something gets lost in
projecting its true size.
Furthermore,unless you have a nice big indoor shop/garage/warehouse,
pains are going to have to be taken towards elaborating temporary
outdoor structures to support and assist in the handling of some of
the larger sections along with a means to proctect unfinished exposed
boat parts from such nasties as rain or snow.
Mind you,none of this is really"end of the world" crisis stuff, but
certainly helpful to anyone seriously considering one of the bigger
designs,especially if ones approach to problem solving does not
involve simply reaching into the wallet for fist fulls of money and
hurling it at the"problem" until it just goes away.
Surprisingly,no book that I am aware of has been printed which
focuses solely on methods and devices dedicated to the safe handling
of large pieces for amateur boatbuilders.Certainly,our Hero has seen
enough in his life-time to fill such a book with all sorts of crafty
ideas for the dedicated amateur builder working in less then pro-shop
settings. Such a book would also increase the probability that some
of the bigger designs actually get built by eliminating what would
otherwise appear as too daunting a task for some amateur builders.
>This is a perfect example; a very heavy and involved process is
> The rigid box keel is built and flipped, then the
> plywood frames, and transoms are installed. On this;
> the deck *and* upper deck sides are attached, giving
> the whole assembly torsional stiffness. This
> hull assembly is then rocked to one side and then
> to the next while the hull sides are strip planked
> and fiberglassed.
addressed in three sentences. Nowhere are the real world challenges
of raising and plumbing those frames or transom mentioned.These
elements will not just float in thin air while we get the deck laid
down.And yes,at some point many sheet of plywood are going to have to
be raised up onto the tops of those frames and permanently secured
without throwing the works out of true.Those upper hull side panels
too will require a fair amount of serious work to get just right....
Please do not take this wrong. I love this particular design and
would have been sorely tempted to build one too were it not for a
lovely bit of work-in-progress called WINDERMERE gobbling up my time
and money.Rather,it is the absence of all the supporting characters
not mentioned that troubles me.How many of these boats will ever see
the light of day by an amateur builder? How many will simply be
abandoned when it all just gets"too big"? Thankfully or sadly, I
don't suppose we'll ever know,but show me a design and/or book which
goes into all the un-written nasty bits required to see a big boat
through till the end, and I'm willing to wagger a higher successful
build rate :-)
Sorry for running off at the mouth, must be the early symptoms of the
dreaded"cabin fever" setting in as I watch another series of days
going to waste thanks to temperatures just a cats hair above
freezing,lots of ice cold rain and no end in sight while I have me a
boat to build........arrrrg!....and to think that some folks are
labouring through temperatures in the mid 80's as I write.....it's
enough to drive any sane person right around the bend and take up
stamp collecting!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,climatically challenged along the dreary shores of the
St.Lawrence..................
--- jhkohnen wrote:
[in my opinion] the latest culmination
of PB&F creativity.
The sailboat Yonder 30' x 10'6" uses a
box keel for all the familiar reasons,
but also for the [I understand] 'new' reason
which is to simplify the 'home build-ability'
sequence: by allowing Yonder to be built
without a need to 'flip' the hull. Only
the box keel needs to be flipped.
The rigid box keel is built and flipped, then the
plywood frames, and transoms are installed. On this;
the deck *and* upper deck sides are attached, giving
the whole assembly torsional stiffness. This
hull assembly is then rocked to one side and then
to the next while the hull sides are strip planked
and fiberglassed.
In the entire process, no piece is so large that
it cannot be manhandled.
> Bolger has tried at least a coupleIncluding also "Yonder" a recent and
> of variations on a box keel running
> most of length of the boat:
[in my opinion] the latest culmination
of PB&F creativity.
The sailboat Yonder 30' x 10'6" uses a
box keel for all the familiar reasons,
but also for the [I understand] 'new' reason
which is to simplify the 'home build-ability'
sequence: by allowing Yonder to be built
without a need to 'flip' the hull. Only
the box keel needs to be flipped.
The rigid box keel is built and flipped, then the
plywood frames, and transoms are installed. On this;
the deck *and* upper deck sides are attached, giving
the whole assembly torsional stiffness. This
hull assembly is then rocked to one side and then
to the next while the hull sides are strip planked
and fiberglassed.
In the entire process, no piece is so large that
it cannot be manhandled.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
And these are issues which have been all be corrected,with;dual
skeds aft,centerboard up forward and "fillet pieces" under her nose.
It bears keeping in mind that the designs cited(HAWKEYE,MICRO-
TRAWLER,SNEALEASY2 ) are at least a dozen(?) years old and our Hero
has brought some"fresh" approaches to old methods,in particular,the
forward bottom treatments such as seen on TOPAZ and her
bigger"cousins" and WINDERMERE along with the newer plans of her
little sister,CHAMPLAIN.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> "In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this isexacerbated by vibration in the
> flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you countblowing away while
> maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the highhouse
> Though hard riding in a head sea, they're dry, and they'reMark,
> not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
>
And these are issues which have been all be corrected,with;dual
skeds aft,centerboard up forward and "fillet pieces" under her nose.
It bears keeping in mind that the designs cited(HAWKEYE,MICRO-
TRAWLER,SNEALEASY2 ) are at least a dozen(?) years old and our Hero
has brought some"fresh" approaches to old methods,in particular,the
forward bottom treatments such as seen on TOPAZ and her
bigger"cousins" and WINDERMERE along with the newer plans of her
little sister,CHAMPLAIN.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Hi, Pat.
Here are some comments Philip Bolger made about box keels.
On Hawkeye:
"In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this is exacerbated by vibration in the
flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you count blowing away while
maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the high house. She tracks hands off
at all speeds and regardless of waves, turns short at all speeds. She doesn't bank her
turns, but doesn't skid or trip.
On Sneakeasy v.2
"[Don Carron] was concerned about control. Flat bottomed, sharp bowed boats will run wild
on their helms if they put their bows in solid water. Long one's like Sneakeasy aren't as
bad as shorter ones... This one won't have any tracking problems.
On Microtrawler:
"These shapes are not pleasant to ride at the wrong speed in the wrong length of head sea.
Running down a sea they're very good, tracking straight and keeping their chins up and
they're steady in a beam sea. Though hard riding in a head sea, they're dry, and they're
not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
"The origin of the concept was an attempt to do something about the plowing, skidding and
air ingestion of a garvey by adding buoyancy under the garvey's toboggan bow.
#########
The garvey bow isn't so different from a pointy boat with a lot of rocker at the bow, only
marginally wider.
I recall Bolger's reference to the efficacy of a 2x4 or even smaller shoe was only with
regard to skidding, though skids and skegs of various sorts can improve tracking quite a lot.
Adding one of these to an existing boat requires accurate calculation and some major
surgery. If you look at the upper chine lines on Bolger's box keeled instances, they are
all cut quite highly.
Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In Bolger's wonderful
term, it's the, "Defect of their virtues."
Best wishes,
Mark
Here are some comments Philip Bolger made about box keels.
On Hawkeye:
"In choppy water she is noisy and rough riding; this is exacerbated by vibration in the
flimsy superstructure. There are no other vices, unless you count blowing away while
maneuvering at low speed on account of the windage of the high house. She tracks hands off
at all speeds and regardless of waves, turns short at all speeds. She doesn't bank her
turns, but doesn't skid or trip.
On Sneakeasy v.2
"[Don Carron] was concerned about control. Flat bottomed, sharp bowed boats will run wild
on their helms if they put their bows in solid water. Long one's like Sneakeasy aren't as
bad as shorter ones... This one won't have any tracking problems.
On Microtrawler:
"These shapes are not pleasant to ride at the wrong speed in the wrong length of head sea.
Running down a sea they're very good, tracking straight and keeping their chins up and
they're steady in a beam sea. Though hard riding in a head sea, they're dry, and they're
not stopped if they're stuck together strongly enough.
"The origin of the concept was an attempt to do something about the plowing, skidding and
air ingestion of a garvey by adding buoyancy under the garvey's toboggan bow.
#########
The garvey bow isn't so different from a pointy boat with a lot of rocker at the bow, only
marginally wider.
I recall Bolger's reference to the efficacy of a 2x4 or even smaller shoe was only with
regard to skidding, though skids and skegs of various sorts can improve tracking quite a lot.
Adding one of these to an existing boat requires accurate calculation and some major
surgery. If you look at the upper chine lines on Bolger's box keeled instances, they are
all cut quite highly.
Light, shallow boats are notorious for blowing off in the wind. In Bolger's wonderful
term, it's the, "Defect of their virtues."
Best wishes,
Mark
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:52 -0000, Pat wrote:
> > I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the Bolger "Box
> > Keel"
> > I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce pounding
> > on a flat bottomed boat.
> > Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
> >
> > Any info appreciated.
> >
> > I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-20 to
> > help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea is as
> > good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to help
> > with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> > The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
>
Please forgive the pedantry, I can't help myslef... Strictly speaking
(important mainly for searching the 'net, the rest of us are smarter than
computers and know what you're talking about), that's the Bolger "box
cutwater", like on an updated Sneakeasy. Bolger has tried at least a couple
of variations on a box keel running most of length of the boat: Bee,
Microtrawler and similar planing motorboats; and a box keel catboat with the
keel stuffed with batteries for auxiliary propulsion (the Canadian
Contingent and I saw the prototype--not built the way Bolger intended!--at
PT). The wide plank keel of the Clam Skiff apparently works much like a Bee-
style box keel, as a ski for the boat to plane on.
(important mainly for searching the 'net, the rest of us are smarter than
computers and know what you're talking about), that's the Bolger "box
cutwater", like on an updated Sneakeasy. Bolger has tried at least a couple
of variations on a box keel running most of length of the boat: Bee,
Microtrawler and similar planing motorboats; and a box keel catboat with the
keel stuffed with batteries for auxiliary propulsion (the Canadian
Contingent and I saw the prototype--not built the way Bolger intended!--at
PT). The wide plank keel of the Clam Skiff apparently works much like a Bee-
style box keel, as a ski for the boat to plane on.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:52 -0000, Pat wrote:
> I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the Bolger "Box
> Keel"
> I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce pounding
> on a flat bottomed boat.
> Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
>
> Any info appreciated.
>
> I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-20 to
> help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea is as
> good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to help
> with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope?
If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't. <G. B. Shaw>
I've got the original Bolger "box keel" on my Microtrawler, well the
original was on the 1/4 scale "Bee", but I built one of those also. A
box keel extends below the hull proper the whole length of the hull and
transitions up forward into the cutwater bow.. Which on Microtrawler at
displacement speed splits the water well. (Then it hits the hull bottom
each side of the keel and pounds anyway.) That's what I think you are
searching for, a cutwater, at least that's what I call it. The newer
Bolger versions have the thin ply "fillets" on each side to reduce the
drumming. Find the website for the Topaz boat built last fall. The
photos showed how it goes on after the hull is complete.
Rick
antec007 wrote:
original was on the 1/4 scale "Bee", but I built one of those also. A
box keel extends below the hull proper the whole length of the hull and
transitions up forward into the cutwater bow.. Which on Microtrawler at
displacement speed splits the water well. (Then it hits the hull bottom
each side of the keel and pounds anyway.) That's what I think you are
searching for, a cutwater, at least that's what I call it. The newer
Bolger versions have the thin ply "fillets" on each side to reduce the
drumming. Find the website for the Topaz boat built last fall. The
photos showed how it goes on after the hull is complete.
Rick
antec007 wrote:
> I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the Bolger "Box[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Keel"
> I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce pounding
> on a flat bottomed boat.
> Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
>
> Any info appreciated.
>
> I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-20 to
> help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea is as
> good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to help
> with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
> The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
>
>
> Pat Patteson
>pateson@...
> Molalla, Oregon
>
>
>
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> perhaps confusing a Bolger Box-keel with a Bolger shoe?The idea of putting a massive shoe under the bow is an idea that goes
back at least to the traditional boats of the Chesapeake. It helps in
two ways. First, it gives the boat a little more de facto depth under
the stem, helping to get the water splashing to the side before the
flat bottom hits the water. Second, it gives rigidity to the hull
which damps the sound and vibration of the hull-to-wave collision.
Of course, Bolger is always thinking of giving a little abraision
protection to any boat which might be beached - a thought that he has
written about for boats up to 40', maybe beyond.
Peter
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:
I'm building a boat which incorporates the Bolger Box-keel
design.Some pictures of it can be seen here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/WINDERMERE%20Construction%
20photos/
I am not aware of the box-keel serving to reduce
pounding.Indeed,it may do the exact opposite since the boats bottom
is rockered even more with the presence of the box-keel. To
reduce/elliminate any pounding,Bolger has designed"fillet pieces"
which fill out the right-angle cavity between the side of the box
keel and the hull bottom and make for a gentler entry.
Based on what you have"heard",especially the notion that even a
box keel as "small as a 2 X 4....etc" has me wondering if you are not
perhaps confusing a Bolger Box-keel with a Bolger shoe? I know some
of his small skiffs show a substantial shoe which is great for
protecting the bottom while beaching and just may help dampen some of
the"sounds" a flat bottom skiff makes slapping in the
waves.....especially a thin bottomed skiff.
Retro-fitting a Bolger box-keel to a design not originally
designed for one would be a tricky proposition,I believe.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> I'm looking for any info or personal experience with theBolger "Box
> Keel"pounding
> I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce
> on a flat bottomed boat.Hello Pat,
I'm building a boat which incorporates the Bolger Box-keel
design.Some pictures of it can be seen here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/WINDERMERE%20Construction%
20photos/
I am not aware of the box-keel serving to reduce
pounding.Indeed,it may do the exact opposite since the boats bottom
is rockered even more with the presence of the box-keel. To
reduce/elliminate any pounding,Bolger has designed"fillet pieces"
which fill out the right-angle cavity between the side of the box
keel and the hull bottom and make for a gentler entry.
Based on what you have"heard",especially the notion that even a
box keel as "small as a 2 X 4....etc" has me wondering if you are not
perhaps confusing a Bolger Box-keel with a Bolger shoe? I know some
of his small skiffs show a substantial shoe which is great for
protecting the bottom while beaching and just may help dampen some of
the"sounds" a flat bottom skiff makes slapping in the
waves.....especially a thin bottomed skiff.
Retro-fitting a Bolger box-keel to a design not originally
designed for one would be a tricky proposition,I believe.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I'm looking for any info or personal experience with the Bolger "Box
Keel"
I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce pounding
on a flat bottomed boat.
Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
Any info appreciated.
I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-20 to
help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea is as
good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to help
with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
Pat Patteson
pateson@...
Molalla, Oregon
Keel"
I have heard that even a very small box keel can help reduce pounding
on a flat bottomed boat.
Even heard a "Claim" that as little as a 2 x 4 helps a lot.
Any info appreciated.
I'm thinking of adding some extra, deeper forward keel to my PK-20 to
help directional control at slow speeds. If the Box Keel idea is as
good as I have heard I might consider trying one of those to help
with control And help reduce some of the pounding.
The PK-20 is a flat bottom skiff "Cruiser".
Pat Patteson
pateson@...
Molalla, Oregon