Re: Penetrating Epoxies
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
. He fills the wood with penetrating
> epoxy before applying two layers of the the cloth. Then fills the
> cloth with several applications of epoxy. THEN applies a barrier
> coat, an undercoat and the final finish coats of paint. Once he is
> done the moisture has several layers to get through before it even
> GETS to the cloth. We are looking at about 12 layers of various
kinds
> of water barriers here:-)
Capt'n Nels!
Were you once a used car salesman? Sounds like you could sell
Freezers to Eskimos :-)
Before everyone thinks I am completely off my rocker, a slight
correction is in order. I only use the penetrating epoxy(3 coats) on
surfaces to be painted and all above the waterline. Where glass is to
be used I proceed as follows;pre-coat with laminating epoxy,once
tacky lay down first layer of glass followed by 2 coats of laminating
epoxy.Let cure,sand and either continue with further layers of glass
or else finish with one more coat of laminating epoxy.Once the
epoxy/glass work is done,3 coats of barrier-coat/primer, with the
first 2 coats put on back-to-back then sanded before the last
coat.Then comes the paint as per the instructions "on the
can",usually several coats too. Indeed,the intention here is to
provide multiple layers of water barriers since I do not trailer sail
my boats.They spend 6 months per year sitting in some mighty unclean
waters.
>
> This guy likes to sand remember?
O.K.! It's all true! I confess to having a secret love affair with my
sander........maybe its the way it gets all warm and vibrates in my
hands that does it to me......who knows,but I did warn ya that I was
a sick puppy,didn't I?
>
> Peter doesn't know this but I have first hand information that
Bolger
> and Friends admire his work so he gets special attention;-) Bolger
> also likes the idea that Peter sticks to the plans, and any changes
> he makes are only refinements of the original idea.
Huh?! Really? Well that's awefully nice to know! :-D
Lets's face it - This guy is the Canuck version of Dynamite Payson.
>
> Perhaps I am biased, being the proud owner of some of his work,
which
> I get to admire and fondle every day:-)
>
> Cheers, Nels -I know - I am a sick puppy too:-(
Golly...I'm blushing!!!!
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Comfrey <mike78612003@y...> wrote:
epoxy before applying two layers of the the cloth. Then fills the
cloth with several applications of epoxy. THEN applies a barrier
coat, an undercoat and the final finish coats of paint. Once he is
done the moisture has several layers to get through before it even
GETS to the cloth. We are looking at about 12 layers of various kinds
of water barriers here:-)
This guy likes to sand remember?
Peter doesn't know this but I have first hand information that Bolger
and Friends admire his work so he gets special attention;-) Bolger
also likes the idea that Peter sticks to the plans, and any changes
he makes are only refinements of the original idea.
Lets's face it - This guy is the Canuck version of Dynamite Payson.
Perhaps I am biased, being the proud owner of some of his work, which
I get to admire and fondle every day:-)
Cheers, Nels -I know - I am a sick puppy too:-(
> but does'nt that kind of cloth stretch and cause the water tomigrate into the open wood pores
>Not if you do it Peter's way. He fills the wood with penetrating
>
epoxy before applying two layers of the the cloth. Then fills the
cloth with several applications of epoxy. THEN applies a barrier
coat, an undercoat and the final finish coats of paint. Once he is
done the moisture has several layers to get through before it even
GETS to the cloth. We are looking at about 12 layers of various kinds
of water barriers here:-)
This guy likes to sand remember?
Peter doesn't know this but I have first hand information that Bolger
and Friends admire his work so he gets special attention;-) Bolger
also likes the idea that Peter sticks to the plans, and any changes
he makes are only refinements of the original idea.
Lets's face it - This guy is the Canuck version of Dynamite Payson.
Perhaps I am biased, being the proud owner of some of his work, which
I get to admire and fondle every day:-)
Cheers, Nels -I know - I am a sick puppy too:-(
but does'nt that kind of cloth stretch and cause the water to migrate into the open wood pores
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I agree, IF you're using normal fiberglass cloth. If you use
unidirectional, it may be a whole different animal. There's a huge
difference in the stiffness between the two. Ideally, with two materials
that need to work together you'd like them both to reach about the same
elongation at failure, so that one is not "loafing" while the other does
the work and breaks. After one breaks,the other is not likely to do much
good as it either has a stress concentration at the break or buckles
because it is no longer supported.Fiberglass cloth, with it's wiggly
fibers, is just too floppy to get loaded up much before the plywood
breaks. I've heard varying reports on whether it is carbon fiber or
glass that reaches the same elongation as wood when breaking when using
straight fibers.. I have some info someplace on this but I don't know
where. I'm sure the web would cough it up.
If you use wood as a core, I'm sure the usual plywood is quite a bit
heavier than it needs to be, and the grain is running the wrong way.
unidirectional, it may be a whole different animal. There's a huge
difference in the stiffness between the two. Ideally, with two materials
that need to work together you'd like them both to reach about the same
elongation at failure, so that one is not "loafing" while the other does
the work and breaks. After one breaks,the other is not likely to do much
good as it either has a stress concentration at the break or buckles
because it is no longer supported.Fiberglass cloth, with it's wiggly
fibers, is just too floppy to get loaded up much before the plywood
breaks. I've heard varying reports on whether it is carbon fiber or
glass that reaches the same elongation as wood when breaking when using
straight fibers.. I have some info someplace on this but I don't know
where. I'm sure the web would cough it up.
If you use wood as a core, I'm sure the usual plywood is quite a bit
heavier than it needs to be, and the grain is running the wrong way.
> "Nels" <arvent@...>wrote:snip
>
>To me this seems to indicate that the strength of wood/plywood hull
>is mainly gained from the underlying structure and the glass/resin
>covering is mainly to protect the wood and lessen maintenance. Once
>one gets that accomplished any extra buildup of glass/resin will have
>diminshing returns.
>
>snip
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
. Otherwise, glass on ply
> is to prevent checking and for surface protection, not for
strength.
>
> This does not count the glass in joints, of course. It joints it is
> always structual.
>
> Peter
Peter,
I've been rumminating over this fiberglass on plywood/strength
exchange and it just struck me after re-reading your post that perhaps
(most likely!) I am confused for,if fiberglass is introducing
enhanced/additional properties to plywood such as preventing checking
and surface proctection,is it not then making the plywood stronger?
If one plywood panel,without glass,did not check and had excellent
surface protection while another un-glassed plywood panel did check
and did suffer surface damage,would we not conclude that the first
panel was"stronger" then the second?
Maybe I need a proper definition of strength and what exactly
stronger means since I keep confusing it with the French term,la
force.
Aider moi,mon amie!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,totalogically lost...................
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
the money in a higher quality plywood.
Living in a very dry climate and doing most of my traveling with a
boat on it's trailer, I feel that this should work for me.
I'm sure the usual plywood is quite a bit
bit since the plys are more even. So I guess it all depends on one's
philosophy and also how one plans to use the boat.
For example with Peter, his boat will be kept in a marina, so keeping
the water out is more of a priority than weight whereas with me it is
the other way around. Another person living in the southeastern U.S.
may be more concerned with rot - and somebody in Florida more
concerned with sun damage.
Many of Bolgers designs call for a choice of a light or heavier
construction and most people seem to favor the heavier. My feeling is
that heavier is not necessarily better. This after having used a 17'
6" kevlar canoe that weigs 40 pounds.
Also I don't plan on going out on any long voyages or traveling much
after dark except with the boat on the trailer. So it would have most
of the glass on the hull, lighter glass on deck and just epoxy and
paint inside. And like Bolger, I don't even see much need for paint
below decks - where the sun don't shine:-)
Cheers, Nels
> I agree, IF you're using normal fiberglass cloth. If you useYes I plan to use only ordinary fiberglass cloth and invest most of
> unidirectional, it may be a whole different animal.
the money in a higher quality plywood.
Living in a very dry climate and doing most of my traveling with a
boat on it's trailer, I feel that this should work for me.
I'm sure the usual plywood is quite a bit
> heavier than it needs to be, and the grain is running the wrong way.I figure by going to better plywood one can drop the thickness down a
>
bit since the plys are more even. So I guess it all depends on one's
philosophy and also how one plans to use the boat.
For example with Peter, his boat will be kept in a marina, so keeping
the water out is more of a priority than weight whereas with me it is
the other way around. Another person living in the southeastern U.S.
may be more concerned with rot - and somebody in Florida more
concerned with sun damage.
Many of Bolgers designs call for a choice of a light or heavier
construction and most people seem to favor the heavier. My feeling is
that heavier is not necessarily better. This after having used a 17'
6" kevlar canoe that weigs 40 pounds.
Also I don't plan on going out on any long voyages or traveling much
after dark except with the boat on the trailer. So it would have most
of the glass on the hull, lighter glass on deck and just epoxy and
paint inside. And like Bolger, I don't even see much need for paint
below decks - where the sun don't shine:-)
Cheers, Nels
That's what I did too, Nels, thanks for getting back anyway. --Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
I simply downloaded both and added them to my folder of boat info - a
lot of which still needs further study:-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
I simply downloaded both and added them to my folder of boat info - a
lot of which still needs further study:-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Duh! Gosh sometimes my brain just won't work! --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Hi Frank,
The barrier coat goes on after the epoxy glass work is all done
BUT before the painting begins.
Peter Lenihan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Hi Frank,
The barrier coat goes on after the epoxy glass work is all done
BUT before the painting begins.
Peter Lenihan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
Actually I am not sure if the information is exacly the same
throughout as I have not read all of the IFC booklet yet. But there
are some portions identical to the S3 Book.
I simply downloaded both and added them to my folder of boat info - a
lot of which still needs further study:-)
Nelsb
> Thanks, Nels. You have to register at System Three in order to gettheir
> e-book too, which I have. So if I read you right, IFC'sinformation is
> already in the System Three's e-book, correct? --FrankBSorry Frank, I missed answering this.
>
Actually I am not sure if the information is exacly the same
throughout as I have not read all of the IFC booklet yet. But there
are some portions identical to the S3 Book.
I simply downloaded both and added them to my folder of boat info - a
lot of which still needs further study:-)
Nelsb
Peter this seems to be a belt and suspenders approach. Is not the
epoxy/glass application a barrier coat?
Bob Chamberland> >
epoxy/glass application a barrier coat?
Bob Chamberland> >
>
>
> Hi Frank,
> The barrier coat goes on after the epoxy glass work is all done
> BUT before the painting begins.
>
> Peter Lenihan
We used biaxial tape on the chines and transom seam on our last boat, and
Mrs. Chamberland is correct: it shapes to the curve beautifully. I quite
agree with the point about crossing the joint, hadn't thought about that
before. We're sold on using it in the future.
David Romasco
_____
From: Bob Chamberland [mailto:cha62759@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:47 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
working with the bias eliminates a lot of wrinkles etc. as the bias
woven tape will lay into the groove as though melted in. As she says
it "hangs beautifully"
Bob Chamberland
Another area that may need clarification is the "glass tape" >
practice. Rarely have I seen it brought up that for truly maximum
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Mrs. Chamberland is correct: it shapes to the curve beautifully. I quite
agree with the point about crossing the joint, hadn't thought about that
before. We're sold on using it in the future.
David Romasco
_____
From: Bob Chamberland [mailto:cha62759@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:47 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
>If I understand correctly 45/45 tape is woven on the bias and as mywife the whiz at clothing construction says
working with the bias eliminates a lot of wrinkles etc. as the bias
woven tape will lay into the groove as though melted in. As she says
it "hangs beautifully"
Bob Chamberland
Another area that may need clarification is the "glass tape" >
practice. Rarely have I seen it brought up that for truly maximum
> results,one should NOT use the regular-sold-everywhere-by-the-foot-Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> yard-and-roll fiberglass tape but rather should really be looking for
> what"we" call up here 45/45 tape.That is,unlike most fiberglass tapes
> which have their threads running at right angles to each other,the
> 45/45 has...er...well...you know....its threads running at 45 degree
> angles to each other:-) The reason for this is best understood if one
> imagines a typical taped chine joint. Using regular tape,one can
> quickly visualize/see that 50% of the threads are just running in
> line with the seam and adding very little to the strength of that
> joint and only the other 50% actually cross and join the two halves
> together. On the other hand,using the 45/45 tape ensures that 100% of
> the glass does indeed cross over to both sides of the joint.
> This is nothing new, but rather something I just witnessed
> once many years ago in a pro shop. Sure made sense then to this boat
> bum:-)
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>If I understand correctly 45/45 tape is woven on the bias and as mywife the whiz at clothing construction says
working with the bias eliminates a lot of wrinkles etc. as the bias
woven tape will lay into the groove as though melted in. As she says
it "hangs beautifully"
Bob Chamberland
Another area that may need clarification is the "glass tape" >
practice. Rarely have I seen it brought up that for truly maximum
> results,one should NOT use the regular-sold-everywhere-by-the-foot-
> yard-and-roll fiberglass tape but rather should really be looking for
> what"we" call up here 45/45 tape.That is,unlike most fiberglass tapes
> which have their threads running at right angles to each other,the
> 45/45 has...er...well...you know....its threads running at 45 degree
> angles to each other:-) The reason for this is best understood if one
> imagines a typical taped chine joint. Using regular tape,one can
> quickly visualize/see that 50% of the threads are just running in
> line with the seam and adding very little to the strength of that
> joint and only the other 50% actually cross and join the two halves
> together. On the other hand,using the 45/45 tape ensures that 100% of
> the glass does indeed cross over to both sides of the joint.
> This is nothing new, but rather something I just witnessed
> once many years ago in a pro shop. Sure made sense then to this boat
> bum:-)
Hi Kris, This is a pretty basic question and you're not going to get a
satisfactory answer unless you do some basic research. Among the
sources for lapstrake or clinker is that authored by Ian Oughtred
which is about plywood and epoxy lapstrake or clinker construction.
There are a number of sources for traditional clinker construction.
Check out Dynamite Paysons "How to" books for stitch and glue or tack
and tape and if you really want more sources check any marine book
list. The answer/question you provide is too simplistic. They are
essentially modern as opposed to tradition or modern as opposed to
modified traditional.
Bob Chamberland
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, kris nordby <bonsii@s...> wrote:
satisfactory answer unless you do some basic research. Among the
sources for lapstrake or clinker is that authored by Ian Oughtred
which is about plywood and epoxy lapstrake or clinker construction.
There are a number of sources for traditional clinker construction.
Check out Dynamite Paysons "How to" books for stitch and glue or tack
and tape and if you really want more sources check any marine book
list. The answer/question you provide is too simplistic. They are
essentially modern as opposed to tradition or modern as opposed to
modified traditional.
Bob Chamberland
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, kris nordby <bonsii@s...> wrote:
> what is the difference between lapstrake and stitch and glue, is it
> that the lapstrake is bevled and glued end to end
> ?
> I think most of Bolger's designs are builtAnd he often doesn't!
> robustly enough to work fine with no fiberglass
> or epoxy with the exceptions where he now
> specifies the use.
[Yonder has fiberglass specified.]
> Otherwise, glass on ply is to prevent checkingReuel Parker is a fan of Xynol cloth, which provides
> and for surface protection, not for strength.
superior surface protection versus fiberglass.
Also, Reuel Parker says 'follow manufactures
instructions' <wink> and then goes on to
describe how he thins epoxy with a 50:50 mix
of MEK with Toluene/Tolunol (sp?) which he adds
at a 10% ratio to the epoxy to make his home brew
'penetrating epoxy' for use in cold moulding.
Gentleman, and Ladies . . .
Unless I am much mistaken, the original poster was interested in the
application of a 'sealer prior to glassing'. For this purpose no
'thinning' should be really necessary. However, a marginal amount {10%}
of Denatured Alcohol could be added if someone felt it they HAD to do
it.
The techniques used depend on the ambient temperature at the time of
application, and the total area that will be covered. The basic concept
is to keep the mixed epoxy at it's most 'flowable' temperature/condition
just below it's exotherm threshold.
In cool weather it's a matter of thoroughly mixing the batch, pouring it
out quickly, then rapidly spreading it out evenly over the area . . . a
7 inch roller is my tool of choice . . . especially for bottoms. In hot
weather, it's a combination of picking the 'correct' time of day, using
a 'Slower' mix, and the patience to use smaller batches, rather than
trying to do the entire job with one mix/batch..
This is a very simplified description of what I do. My epoxy is RAKA.
Typically I use a 5:1 formulation . . . a 'moderate-fast' one. The 2:1
are typically 'slow'. I have used them, on occasion, to 'temper' the
speed of the 5:1, but usually I just arrange my build schedule so I will
be doing the epoxy application as the ambient temperature is falling. In
the colder months I simply warm everything up.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
Unless I am much mistaken, the original poster was interested in the
application of a 'sealer prior to glassing'. For this purpose no
'thinning' should be really necessary. However, a marginal amount {10%}
of Denatured Alcohol could be added if someone felt it they HAD to do
it.
The techniques used depend on the ambient temperature at the time of
application, and the total area that will be covered. The basic concept
is to keep the mixed epoxy at it's most 'flowable' temperature/condition
just below it's exotherm threshold.
In cool weather it's a matter of thoroughly mixing the batch, pouring it
out quickly, then rapidly spreading it out evenly over the area . . . a
7 inch roller is my tool of choice . . . especially for bottoms. In hot
weather, it's a combination of picking the 'correct' time of day, using
a 'Slower' mix, and the patience to use smaller batches, rather than
trying to do the entire job with one mix/batch..
This is a very simplified description of what I do. My epoxy is RAKA.
Typically I use a 5:1 formulation . . . a 'moderate-fast' one. The 2:1
are typically 'slow'. I have used them, on occasion, to 'temper' the
speed of the 5:1, but usually I just arrange my build schedule so I will
be doing the epoxy application as the ambient temperature is falling. In
the colder months I simply warm everything up.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
> From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> Subject: Re: Penetrating Epoxies
>
> Thanks Gentlemen,
>
> Seems like a lot of the discussion at the WB site had to do with
> using penetrating epoxy for wood rot, whereas I am considering it as
> a sealer prior to glassing. There seems to be a lot of support for
> the idea of thinning a regular low viscosity laminating epoxy by
> about 10% as mentioned. Also that warming the plywood and the epoxy
> increases absorption.
>
> I think most of Bolger's designs are built robustly enough to workThe only designer I know of who designs "plywood cored fiberglass"
> fine with no fiberglass or epoxy with the exceptions where he now
> specifies the use.
boats in Jacques Mertens at www.bateau.com. Otherwise, glass on ply
is to prevent checking and for surface protection, not for strength.
This does not count the glass in joints, of course. It joints it is
always structual.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
Most of my background experience is with canoeing and there is a
common misunderstanding that stiffness equates with strength and
therefore security. This only holds true to a certain degree in
canoeing where some resilency is desirable after a certain point. In
other words you want to have some "give" to the hull when
encountering rocks but you don't want "oil canning" when not
encountering rocks. Also, using panels with some curvature in them
can increase the stiffness immensly compared to flat panels.
Some of the newer epoxies are claimed to be fairly flexible without
cracking. That is why they recommend preglassing the panels before
they are installed.
For what it is worth I would like to quote an excerpt from the S3
manual. I find it noteworthy, considering that their "business" is to
sell epoxy. I will add a further comment at the end.
"Because the fiberglass is structural to the epoxy coating rather
than the boat hull, it's possible to use light weight cloth. One of
our own boats, a 34 foo fir plywood/epoxy trimaran, has only two
layers of 4-ounce cloth below the waterline and one above. The decks
and cabin top, which get a lot of foot traffice, have only one layer
of 4-ounce cloth. This boat has seen over ten years of extended
offshore service and the glass/epoxy coating is in excellent
condition. Don't use cloth that is too heavy for the intended
service, you'll use a lot more epoxy and have a heavier boat, gaining
little else. Tests run with System Three show no appreciable
difference in peel strength between the most popular finishes of
fiberglass cloth, volan and silane. 4 and 6-once cloths are nearly
invisible when wet out with clear epoxy resin. Heavier weight cloths
begin to show the weave pattern under certain lighting conditions.
Avoid using fiberlgass mat with epoxy resins. The binder that holds
the mat together is designed to be dissolved by the styrene in
polyester resin. Boatbuilding epoxies do not use styrene as a
diluent, making it almost impossible to wet out the mat. Woven roving
is wet out well by epoxy although we know of no reason to use it in
building a wooden boat. Clear Coat epoxy, due to lower viscosity and
higher solvating power will wet out fiberglasss faster than other
systems.
Regardless of the type of the cloth or resin system used,
fiberglassing is done essentially the same way. There is no need to
be intimidated by fiberglassing. What you are really doing is gluing
the cloth to the surface with a minimum amount of resin. Use just
enough epoxy to wet out the cloth, you'll fill the weave of the cloth
later."
To me this seems to indicate that the strength of wood/plywood hull
is mainly gained from the underlying structure and the glass/resin
covering is mainly to protect the wood and lessen maintenance. Once
one gets that accomplished any extra buildup of glass/resin will have
diminshing returns.
Of course this does not hold true with fiberglass composite hulls
where the core material may be foam or even cardboard of some kind:-)
I thinks most of Bolger's designs are built robustly enough to work
fine with no fiberglass or epoxy with the exceptions where he now
specifies the use. But certainly using these materials to protect the
wood from the elements and lessen maintenance will be repaid in
spades. I believe some of his designs might benefit with extra
framing in the areas that are weight bearing like the decks, but
don't really require heavy applications of ply and glass.
Below the waterline is where most of the additional bonding would
give the greatest benefits.
Cheers, Nels
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:laminated together,one ends up
> Hi Nels,
>
>It has been my experience that whenever relatively light panels are
> with a substantially stiffer panel then would be the case were oneto
> simply nail them all together. With this example in mind, I firmlyof
> believe a similar effect occurs when one laminates several layers
> glass over a panel especially since the glass has very littleelastic
> properties to it.Hi Peter,
Most of my background experience is with canoeing and there is a
common misunderstanding that stiffness equates with strength and
therefore security. This only holds true to a certain degree in
canoeing where some resilency is desirable after a certain point. In
other words you want to have some "give" to the hull when
encountering rocks but you don't want "oil canning" when not
encountering rocks. Also, using panels with some curvature in them
can increase the stiffness immensly compared to flat panels.
Some of the newer epoxies are claimed to be fairly flexible without
cracking. That is why they recommend preglassing the panels before
they are installed.
For what it is worth I would like to quote an excerpt from the S3
manual. I find it noteworthy, considering that their "business" is to
sell epoxy. I will add a further comment at the end.
"Because the fiberglass is structural to the epoxy coating rather
than the boat hull, it's possible to use light weight cloth. One of
our own boats, a 34 foo fir plywood/epoxy trimaran, has only two
layers of 4-ounce cloth below the waterline and one above. The decks
and cabin top, which get a lot of foot traffice, have only one layer
of 4-ounce cloth. This boat has seen over ten years of extended
offshore service and the glass/epoxy coating is in excellent
condition. Don't use cloth that is too heavy for the intended
service, you'll use a lot more epoxy and have a heavier boat, gaining
little else. Tests run with System Three show no appreciable
difference in peel strength between the most popular finishes of
fiberglass cloth, volan and silane. 4 and 6-once cloths are nearly
invisible when wet out with clear epoxy resin. Heavier weight cloths
begin to show the weave pattern under certain lighting conditions.
Avoid using fiberlgass mat with epoxy resins. The binder that holds
the mat together is designed to be dissolved by the styrene in
polyester resin. Boatbuilding epoxies do not use styrene as a
diluent, making it almost impossible to wet out the mat. Woven roving
is wet out well by epoxy although we know of no reason to use it in
building a wooden boat. Clear Coat epoxy, due to lower viscosity and
higher solvating power will wet out fiberglasss faster than other
systems.
Regardless of the type of the cloth or resin system used,
fiberglassing is done essentially the same way. There is no need to
be intimidated by fiberglassing. What you are really doing is gluing
the cloth to the surface with a minimum amount of resin. Use just
enough epoxy to wet out the cloth, you'll fill the weave of the cloth
later."
To me this seems to indicate that the strength of wood/plywood hull
is mainly gained from the underlying structure and the glass/resin
covering is mainly to protect the wood and lessen maintenance. Once
one gets that accomplished any extra buildup of glass/resin will have
diminshing returns.
Of course this does not hold true with fiberglass composite hulls
where the core material may be foam or even cardboard of some kind:-)
I thinks most of Bolger's designs are built robustly enough to work
fine with no fiberglass or epoxy with the exceptions where he now
specifies the use. But certainly using these materials to protect the
wood from the elements and lessen maintenance will be repaid in
spades. I believe some of his designs might benefit with extra
framing in the areas that are weight bearing like the decks, but
don't really require heavy applications of ply and glass.
Below the waterline is where most of the additional bonding would
give the greatest benefits.
Cheers, Nels
Actually, I think adding GoFS after your name would look rather elegant.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@...>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> This is all from the two booklets and of course reflects their
> > claims. I think it is also confirmed by Peter's ecperience as well.
> > He is fast becoming the guru of frozen snot. IMO - He could have
> > written the book:-)
> >
> > Cheers, Nels
>
>
> Jesus H.Christ! Nels,thanks.......but I would much rather prefer
> being considered as the "Baron of Chilled Beer"(lots of
> it!),the "Extended Abdomen of Italien Cuisine","The Busted Out Epoxy
> Coated Jeans of Fashion" or even as the "Goofus of
> Smoofus".......anything really!.............but please not the guru
> of frozen snot....my eyes water at the thought:-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
The barrier coat goes on after the epoxy glass work is all done
BUT before the painting begins.
Peter Lenihan
> Peter, so you will use this barrier coat on a boat hull, and thenfiberglass
> and epoxy as usual? --FrankBHi Frank,
>
The barrier coat goes on after the epoxy glass work is all done
BUT before the painting begins.
Peter Lenihan
Peter, so you will use this barrier coat on a boat hull, and then fiberglass
and epoxy as usual? --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Hi Frank,
A barrier coat is essentially an epoxy based coating applied to
further enhance the"water proofness" of the underlaying surface.
Check out the the blister treatments under the products section here:
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/
Some may say it is over kill,but I am deathly afeared of water
soaking into my wooden boat :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,not yet neurotic enough,Lenihan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and epoxy as usual? --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Hi Frank,
A barrier coat is essentially an epoxy based coating applied to
further enhance the"water proofness" of the underlaying surface.
Check out the the blister treatments under the products section here:
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/
Some may say it is over kill,but I am deathly afeared of water
soaking into my wooden boat :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,not yet neurotic enough,Lenihan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well Peter, I think EVERYTHING will be frozen there quite soon; not so?
Better a Guru than a Goofus any day, I say.....
David Romasco
_____
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:52 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
Better a Guru than a Goofus any day, I say.....
David Romasco
_____
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:52 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
This is all from the two booklets and of course reflects their
> claims. I think it is also confirmed by Peter's ecperience as well.
> He is fast becoming the guru of frozen snot. IMO - He could have
> written the book:-)
>
> Cheers, Nels
Jesus H.Christ! Nels,thanks.......but I would much rather prefer
being considered as the "Baron of Chilled Beer"(lots of
it!),the "Extended Abdomen of Italien Cuisine","The Busted Out Epoxy
Coated Jeans of Fashion" or even as the "Goofus of
Smoofus".......anything really!.............but please not the guru
of frozen snot....my eyes water at the thought:-)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
This is all from the two booklets and of course reflects their
> claims. I think it is also confirmed by Peter's ecperience as well.
> He is fast becoming the guru of frozen snot. IMO - He could have
> written the book:-)
>
> Cheers, Nels
Jesus H.Christ! Nels,thanks.......but I would much rather prefer
being considered as the "Baron of Chilled Beer"(lots of
it!),the "Extended Abdomen of Italien Cuisine","The Busted Out Epoxy
Coated Jeans of Fashion" or even as the "Goofus of
Smoofus".......anything really!.............but please not the guru
of frozen snot....my eyes water at the thought:-)
In a lapstrake (planked) hull, the strakes lap over one another along their
edges. :-o
The classic form involves riveting the strakes together with nails clenched
over "roves" (flat washer-like pieces of metal with a slight cup in one
face.) No caulking required. Modern useage involves epoxy to hold the
strakes in position.
The May/June 2003 issue of Wooden Boat showed Chris Kulczycki's technique
for "lapstitch" which gives a similar effect in a "stitch and glue" type
operation.http://www.chriskulczycki.com/index.htmlbut he doesn't have the
article on his web page.
The outside surface has ledges that keep down spray and the doubled sections
act as longitudinal beams to allow a lighter construction with enhanced
strength. The Viking long boats were early lapstrake hulls noted for their
strength, lightness, and flexibility.
http://www.battle1066.com/vikpic.shtml
There's a beautiful example of a lapstrake Chebacco at
http://www.chebacco.com/Look under "News, questions, and boats for sale"
to find George Cobb's Lapstrake Chebacco 20 and click on "lots of wonderful
pictures here."
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
edges. :-o
The classic form involves riveting the strakes together with nails clenched
over "roves" (flat washer-like pieces of metal with a slight cup in one
face.) No caulking required. Modern useage involves epoxy to hold the
strakes in position.
The May/June 2003 issue of Wooden Boat showed Chris Kulczycki's technique
for "lapstitch" which gives a similar effect in a "stitch and glue" type
operation.http://www.chriskulczycki.com/index.htmlbut he doesn't have the
article on his web page.
The outside surface has ledges that keep down spray and the doubled sections
act as longitudinal beams to allow a lighter construction with enhanced
strength. The Viking long boats were early lapstrake hulls noted for their
strength, lightness, and flexibility.
http://www.battle1066.com/vikpic.shtml
There's a beautiful example of a lapstrake Chebacco at
http://www.chebacco.com/Look under "News, questions, and boats for sale"
to find George Cobb's Lapstrake Chebacco 20 and click on "lots of wonderful
pictures here."
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "kris nordby" <bonsii@...>
> what is the difference between lapstrake and stitch and
> glue, is it that the lapstrake is beveled and glued end to end?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, kris nordby <bonsii@s...> wrote:
Lapstrake(or clinker) involves the laying out of planks secured
to each other with rivets/nails and later beefed up with
frames.Imagine a Viking ship.
Stitch-n-glue applies more formally to plywood construction
whereby adjoining panels are temporarily held together with
wire/rope/plastic tie-wraps etc while a thickened blend of epoxy is
laid into the seam followed by the application of fiberglass tape on
onto the thickend epoxy.Once this cures,the temporary fasteners are
removed and another layer of tape is laid in epoxy on the other side
of the panel.
Depending on size and design,the"shape" of the boat will not
require much of a temporary frame work to assemble,especially the
smaller boats. Bigger designs will require a fair strongback/jig to
help support or layout the panels and/or planks.
Whatcha thinkin' of buildin'?
Peter Lenihan
> what is the difference between lapstrake and stitch and glue, is itKris,
> that the lapstrake is bevled and glued end to end
> ?
Lapstrake(or clinker) involves the laying out of planks secured
to each other with rivets/nails and later beefed up with
frames.Imagine a Viking ship.
Stitch-n-glue applies more formally to plywood construction
whereby adjoining panels are temporarily held together with
wire/rope/plastic tie-wraps etc while a thickened blend of epoxy is
laid into the seam followed by the application of fiberglass tape on
onto the thickend epoxy.Once this cures,the temporary fasteners are
removed and another layer of tape is laid in epoxy on the other side
of the panel.
Depending on size and design,the"shape" of the boat will not
require much of a temporary frame work to assemble,especially the
smaller boats. Bigger designs will require a fair strongback/jig to
help support or layout the panels and/or planks.
Whatcha thinkin' of buildin'?
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
A barrier coat is essentially an epoxy based coating applied to
further enhance the"water proofness" of the underlaying surface.
Check out the the blister treatments under the products section here:
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/
Some may say it is over kill,but I am deathly afeared of water
soaking into my wooden boat :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,not yet neurotic enough,Lenihan
> What is a barrier coat? Sorry to be such a pain. --FrankBHi Frank,
A barrier coat is essentially an epoxy based coating applied to
further enhance the"water proofness" of the underlaying surface.
Check out the the blister treatments under the products section here:
http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/
Some may say it is over kill,but I am deathly afeared of water
soaking into my wooden boat :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,not yet neurotic enough,Lenihan
What is a barrier coat? Sorry to be such a pain. --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
all epoxies will have pinholes,
This may be true,which is why I like to use a barrier coat for all
underwater parts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]
all epoxies will have pinholes,
This may be true,which is why I like to use a barrier coat for all
underwater parts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
has been stabilized(relatively no more shrinking and swelling from
moist),the sanded epoxy surface presents an excellent surface for
topcoats of less robust materials.
Peter Lenihan
> Some people will say "why bother using epoxy if you are goingI share this excellent point too.For once the epoxy saturated wood
> to paint or varnish anyway?", but I think that the key is that the
> epoxy bonds much better to the wood than most paints or
> varnishes, so when the paint or varnish starts to lift the wood
> is not exposed.
has been stabilized(relatively no more shrinking and swelling from
moist),the sanded epoxy surface presents an excellent surface for
topcoats of less robust materials.
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
Yes they do unless protected with a finish that has UV blockers in it.
all epoxies will have pinholes,
This may be true,which is why I like to use a barrier coat for all
underwater parts.
is a laminating resin or adhesive/glue/construction resin formulation.
The sanding part is good advise,between all cured coats,whether epoxy
or paint or varnish :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,"I'm just a sanding fool",Lenihan.............
]
> I'd never heard this before; is this true? --FrankBtime,
>
> "all epoxies, do break when exposed to UV radiation for extented
Yes they do unless protected with a finish that has UV blockers in it.
all epoxies will have pinholes,
This may be true,which is why I like to use a barrier coat for all
underwater parts.
> "Epoxy is thick and does not lay down or flow like varnish orurethane,
> means once you are done with it, sanding starts and in case you wantDepends on which epoxy fabricators epoxy you are using AND whether it
> beautifull finish it has to be over coated with good urethane."
is a laminating resin or adhesive/glue/construction resin formulation.
The sanding part is good advise,between all cured coats,whether epoxy
or paint or varnish :-)
Sincerely,
Peter,"I'm just a sanding fool",Lenihan.............
]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
I'm no expert or engineer,just a boat happy boat bum who
wishes he lived further South:-) With that out of the way, I would
like to comment on the above"claim". It has been my experience that
whenever relatively light panels are laminated together,one ends up
with a substantially stiffer panel then would be the case were one to
simply nail them all together. With this example in mind, I firmly
believe a similar effect occurs when one laminates several layers of
glass over a panel especially since the glass has very little elastic
properties to it.
Certainly the designer plays a crucial role in so far as how
he engineers his boat.There are scantling rules available for all
known forms of popular boat construction methods and the glass
schedules for wood composite are not,I would hope,simply pulled out
of the air:-) I believe it has been demonstrated that certain glass
schedules not only enhance the abrasion resistance of wood surfaces
but also greatly increase its puncture resistance,modify its modulous
of elasticity and essentially increase its overall tuffness or
robustness in a given application.
I particularly like its use as a means of supporting a
subtantial thickness of epoxy resin,over the wood, thus maximizing
the finished outside shell of vapor barrier protection afforded by
the epoxy.
Furthermore, the recommendation of 4 oz cloth may best apply
only to certain sized boats.That is, the glass schedule should be in
proportion to the size of the project under
consideration.However,this again depends a lot on what the designer
is attempting to engineer and may rest entirely on precisely how much
actual experience he/she has in designing wood composite boats.
Certainly there have been an extra-ordinary number of exquiste
boats made entirely out of wood without a drop of epoxy
anywhere.History reveals a wonderful evolution of methods and
techniques that have all served to inspire and inform the next
generation going all the way back to the humble log.
If one keeps in mind the growing bank of information/data
collected both through lab testing and real world experience,it is
clear that this is still a relatively new and very dynamic field.
Indeed, thanks to this information bank, I would no more lay on 5
layers of 10 oz cloth over an oar blade tip for protection then use a
single layer of 4 oz cloth on the bottom of a centerboard expected to
beach regularly..........
Another area that may need clarification is the "glass tape"
practice. Rarely have I seen it brought up that for truly maximum
results,one should NOT use the regular-sold-everywhere-by-the-foot-
yard-and-roll fiberglass tape but rather should really be looking for
what"we" call up here 45/45 tape.That is,unlike most fiberglass tapes
which have their threads running at right angles to each other,the
45/45 has...er...well...you know....its threads running at 45 degree
angles to each other:-) The reason for this is best understood if one
imagines a typical taped chine joint. Using regular tape,one can
quickly visualize/see that 50% of the threads are just running in
line with the seam and adding very little to the strength of that
joint and only the other 50% actually cross and join the two halves
together. On the other hand,using the 45/45 tape ensures that 100% of
the glass does indeed cross over to both sides of the joint.
This is nothing new, but rather something I just witnessed
once many years ago in a pro shop. Sure made sense then to this boat
bum:-)
They also recommend sealing and
of the fiberglass tape. Another little gem I would like to pass along
is the suggestion of routering out about 3/16th of the panels
thickness in the area to be taped.This is then followed by a
saturation of the exposed wood with the same laminating resin which
will be used to secure the fiberglass tape(45/45) later on. The
intention here is two fold: it is very easy to achieve a beautifully
faired transition between the two adjoining panels(no un-sigthly bump
under your gleaming high gloss finish) and you do not end up
literally sanding away the tape so critical to the strength of that
joint as you attempt to "fair her up".
So there you have it Nels, my highly biased thoughts.Others are,of
course, invited to share/dispute/disagree/enlighten/send money :-) or
whatever.....join in the fun!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, so glad my skiing days are over despite the fact that
I will soon be living in a winter wonderland...........
> There is some interesting info in the S3 book that claims there isno
> advantage in using heavy glass and certainly not mat nor rovingwith
> epoxy and plywood. Just adds to the weight and expense. Glass isonly
> structural when used as a tape for joints. They recommend 4 oz.glass
> everywhere else, with possibly two layer below the waterline, forHi Nels,
> extra abrasion protection.
I'm no expert or engineer,just a boat happy boat bum who
wishes he lived further South:-) With that out of the way, I would
like to comment on the above"claim". It has been my experience that
whenever relatively light panels are laminated together,one ends up
with a substantially stiffer panel then would be the case were one to
simply nail them all together. With this example in mind, I firmly
believe a similar effect occurs when one laminates several layers of
glass over a panel especially since the glass has very little elastic
properties to it.
Certainly the designer plays a crucial role in so far as how
he engineers his boat.There are scantling rules available for all
known forms of popular boat construction methods and the glass
schedules for wood composite are not,I would hope,simply pulled out
of the air:-) I believe it has been demonstrated that certain glass
schedules not only enhance the abrasion resistance of wood surfaces
but also greatly increase its puncture resistance,modify its modulous
of elasticity and essentially increase its overall tuffness or
robustness in a given application.
I particularly like its use as a means of supporting a
subtantial thickness of epoxy resin,over the wood, thus maximizing
the finished outside shell of vapor barrier protection afforded by
the epoxy.
Furthermore, the recommendation of 4 oz cloth may best apply
only to certain sized boats.That is, the glass schedule should be in
proportion to the size of the project under
consideration.However,this again depends a lot on what the designer
is attempting to engineer and may rest entirely on precisely how much
actual experience he/she has in designing wood composite boats.
Certainly there have been an extra-ordinary number of exquiste
boats made entirely out of wood without a drop of epoxy
anywhere.History reveals a wonderful evolution of methods and
techniques that have all served to inspire and inform the next
generation going all the way back to the humble log.
If one keeps in mind the growing bank of information/data
collected both through lab testing and real world experience,it is
clear that this is still a relatively new and very dynamic field.
Indeed, thanks to this information bank, I would no more lay on 5
layers of 10 oz cloth over an oar blade tip for protection then use a
single layer of 4 oz cloth on the bottom of a centerboard expected to
beach regularly..........
Another area that may need clarification is the "glass tape"
practice. Rarely have I seen it brought up that for truly maximum
results,one should NOT use the regular-sold-everywhere-by-the-foot-
yard-and-roll fiberglass tape but rather should really be looking for
what"we" call up here 45/45 tape.That is,unlike most fiberglass tapes
which have their threads running at right angles to each other,the
45/45 has...er...well...you know....its threads running at 45 degree
angles to each other:-) The reason for this is best understood if one
imagines a typical taped chine joint. Using regular tape,one can
quickly visualize/see that 50% of the threads are just running in
line with the seam and adding very little to the strength of that
joint and only the other 50% actually cross and join the two halves
together. On the other hand,using the 45/45 tape ensures that 100% of
the glass does indeed cross over to both sides of the joint.
This is nothing new, but rather something I just witnessed
once many years ago in a pro shop. Sure made sense then to this boat
bum:-)
They also recommend sealing and
> glassing/painting the panels flat as much as you can - and thenthis
> assembling the boat and glassing the joints. I know PB&F mention
> as well in some of their newer creations and I wonder - is thisedges
> becoming a more standard practice? If so... Does one leave the
> of the panels untouched until assembly? Can the edge strips beYes,it is best to leave the perimeter bare for the later application
> protected with masking tape or what? (Obviously the edge grain must
> be sealed as well.)
of the fiberglass tape. Another little gem I would like to pass along
is the suggestion of routering out about 3/16th of the panels
thickness in the area to be taped.This is then followed by a
saturation of the exposed wood with the same laminating resin which
will be used to secure the fiberglass tape(45/45) later on. The
intention here is two fold: it is very easy to achieve a beautifully
faired transition between the two adjoining panels(no un-sigthly bump
under your gleaming high gloss finish) and you do not end up
literally sanding away the tape so critical to the strength of that
joint as you attempt to "fair her up".
So there you have it Nels, my highly biased thoughts.Others are,of
course, invited to share/dispute/disagree/enlighten/send money :-) or
whatever.....join in the fun!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, so glad my skiing days are over despite the fact that
I will soon be living in a winter wonderland...........
what is the difference between lapstrake and stitch and glue, is it
that the lapstrake is bevled and glued end to end
?
that the lapstrake is bevled and glued end to end
?
Thanks, Nels. You have to register at System Three in order to get their
e-book too, which I have. So if I read you right, IFC's information is
already in the System Three's e-book, correct? --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
http://www.indform.com/
This is essentially a condensed version (20 pages) of the System
Three booklet (50 pages)
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp
They are in pdf format.
S3 also has a nice little two page brochure instructing how to finish
outdoor furniture, using the same techniques "that boat builders
use" - by sealing first with epoxy and then spar varnish over top to
protect the epoxy from sun damage.
You have to become a "member" at S3 to be entitled to download their
literature - but there is no obligation - I think it is just to
discourage curiosity seekers. I know they are a very reputable
company and will not bombard you with spam.
Right after you register they send you a password.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
e-book too, which I have. So if I read you right, IFC's information is
already in the System Three's e-book, correct? --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
http://www.indform.com/
This is essentially a condensed version (20 pages) of the System
Three booklet (50 pages)
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp
They are in pdf format.
S3 also has a nice little two page brochure instructing how to finish
outdoor furniture, using the same techniques "that boat builders
use" - by sealing first with epoxy and then spar varnish over top to
protect the epoxy from sun damage.
You have to become a "member" at S3 to be entitled to download their
literature - but there is no obligation - I think it is just to
discourage curiosity seekers. I know they are a very reputable
company and will not bombard you with spam.
Right after you register they send you a password.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Comfrey <mike78612003@y...> wrote:
vapor
chemical bond that forms at the molecular level. With oils there is
only a mechanical coating that is created. However that is not to say
that mechanical coatings cannot be effective as countless numbers of
boats have been built and used without any epoxy barrier or bonding
in them.
My impression is that a combination of plywood, epoxy and fiberglass
is about as maintenacne free as anything available to the amature
boatbuilder - in a form that is pretty forgiving of less than highly
skilled workmanship - and is probably the quickest to build by an
amateur.
Other advantages are that it is relatively light and able to take the
knocking about of trailering. That is a major attraction for me.
It is quite amazing to me that a complete boat dummy can build from
scratch a very effective, safe and seaworthy boat and never even have
to go near a place that sells boat hardware! With the possible
exception of an anchor and some good rope.
Cheers, Nels
> can you use a oil base paint that is thinned out to seal the woodand just be as effective in sealing the wood against water and water
vapor
>The big difference with using epoxy to seal wood is that there is a
>
chemical bond that forms at the molecular level. With oils there is
only a mechanical coating that is created. However that is not to say
that mechanical coatings cannot be effective as countless numbers of
boats have been built and used without any epoxy barrier or bonding
in them.
My impression is that a combination of plywood, epoxy and fiberglass
is about as maintenacne free as anything available to the amature
boatbuilder - in a form that is pretty forgiving of less than highly
skilled workmanship - and is probably the quickest to build by an
amateur.
Other advantages are that it is relatively light and able to take the
knocking about of trailering. That is a major attraction for me.
It is quite amazing to me that a complete boat dummy can build from
scratch a very effective, safe and seaworthy boat and never even have
to go near a place that sells boat hardware! With the possible
exception of an anchor and some good rope.
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
I would suggest that if one follows Peter's procedures you will get
the results that Peter has gotten - which are pristine finishes that
last if they are maintained.
In other words, get that final coat of epoxy on just right and then
cover with a high quality uv protection paint or varnish using the
manufacturers instructions.
There are several tips in the booklets to help avoid pin-holing and
the most common cause is when applying the epoxy when the temperature
is on the rise. Either pre-warm the expoxy and wood surface first or
apply later in the day or when outside temperatures are falling.
There are epoxy formulations that flow just as easily as urethane and
some can be thinned even further with a solvent which should always
be added to the hardner - up to 10%. Can't recall which one they
recommend. Another warning that is new is NOT to pre-wipe the surface
with acetone or tack cloths. Vacuum up dust or wipe with a clean damp
cloth, and allow to dry.
This is all from the two booklets and of course reflects their
claims. I think it is also confirmed by Peter's ecperience as well.
He is fast becoming the guru of frozen snot. IMO - He could have
written the book:-)
Cheers, Nels
> The below statements were made by a fellow on another list I'm on.They
> were made to a fellow who was going to refinish some "panels" on atrawler.
> I'd never heard this before; is this true? --FrankBHi Frank,
>
I would suggest that if one follows Peter's procedures you will get
the results that Peter has gotten - which are pristine finishes that
last if they are maintained.
In other words, get that final coat of epoxy on just right and then
cover with a high quality uv protection paint or varnish using the
manufacturers instructions.
There are several tips in the booklets to help avoid pin-holing and
the most common cause is when applying the epoxy when the temperature
is on the rise. Either pre-warm the expoxy and wood surface first or
apply later in the day or when outside temperatures are falling.
There are epoxy formulations that flow just as easily as urethane and
some can be thinned even further with a solvent which should always
be added to the hardner - up to 10%. Can't recall which one they
recommend. Another warning that is new is NOT to pre-wipe the surface
with acetone or tack cloths. Vacuum up dust or wipe with a clean damp
cloth, and allow to dry.
This is all from the two booklets and of course reflects their
claims. I think it is also confirmed by Peter's ecperience as well.
He is fast becoming the guru of frozen snot. IMO - He could have
written the book:-)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
http://www.indform.com/
This is essentially a condensed version (20 pages) of the System
Three booklet (50 pages)
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp
They are in pdf format.
S3 also has a nice little two page brochure instructing how to finish
outdoor furniture, using the same techniques "that boat builders
use" - by sealing first with epoxy and then spar varnish over top to
protect the epoxy from sun damage.
You have to become a "member" at S3 to be entitled to download their
literature - but there is no obligation - I think it is just to
discourage curiosity seekers. I know they are a very reputable
company and will not bombard you with spam.
Right after you register they send you a password.
Cheers, Nels
> Nels, where did you download IFC's "Understanding Epoxy?" --FrankBFrank,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nels [mailto:arvent@h...]
http://www.indform.com/
This is essentially a condensed version (20 pages) of the System
Three booklet (50 pages)
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp
They are in pdf format.
S3 also has a nice little two page brochure instructing how to finish
outdoor furniture, using the same techniques "that boat builders
use" - by sealing first with epoxy and then spar varnish over top to
protect the epoxy from sun damage.
You have to become a "member" at S3 to be entitled to download their
literature - but there is no obligation - I think it is just to
discourage curiosity seekers. I know they are a very reputable
company and will not bombard you with spam.
Right after you register they send you a password.
Cheers, Nels
Frank Bales wrote:
says that the epoxy needs to be protected from UV, which means
either paint or a good varnish with UV inhibitors. If you can apply
the epoxy while the wood is level then you can get a pretty nice
surface without much sanding. Vertical surfaces are another
matter.
Some people will say "why bother using epoxy if you are going
to paint or varnish anyway?", but I think that the key is that the
epoxy bonds much better to the wood than most paints or
varnishes, so when the paint or varnish starts to lift the wood
is not exposed. I think this is more important than the
impermeable barrier that epoxy may or may not provide.
Just my opinion of course.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> is this true? --FrankBflorida
>
> "all epoxies, do break when exposed to UV radiation for extented time,
> failing will of course depend how strong and how long exposed ( in
> this is typically 4 to 6 months) - all epoxies will have pinholes, meansdeep
> tiny little spots for water to get in I have used it to build up very
> looking clear finish but it NEEDS to be protected from UV."That seems to match my experience. Everything I have read
> "Epoxy is thick and does not lay down or flow like varnish or urethane,
> means once you are done with it, sanding starts and in case you want
> beautifull finish it has to be over coated with good urethane."
says that the epoxy needs to be protected from UV, which means
either paint or a good varnish with UV inhibitors. If you can apply
the epoxy while the wood is level then you can get a pretty nice
surface without much sanding. Vertical surfaces are another
matter.
Some people will say "why bother using epoxy if you are going
to paint or varnish anyway?", but I think that the key is that the
epoxy bonds much better to the wood than most paints or
varnishes, so when the paint or varnish starts to lift the wood
is not exposed. I think this is more important than the
impermeable barrier that epoxy may or may not provide.
Just my opinion of course.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
The below statements were made by a fellow on another list I'm on. They
were made to a fellow who was going to refinish some "panels" on a trawler.
I'd never heard this before; is this true? --FrankB
"all epoxies, do break when exposed to UV radiation for extented time,
failing will of course depend how strong and how long exposed ( in florida
this is typically 4 to 6 months) - all epoxies will have pinholes, means
tiny little spots for water to get in I have used it to build up very deep
looking clear finish but it NEEDS to be protected from UV."
"Epoxy is thick and does not lay down or flow like varnish or urethane,
means once you are done with it, sanding starts and in case you want
beautifull finish it has to be over coated with good urethane."
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:53 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
were made to a fellow who was going to refinish some "panels" on a trawler.
I'd never heard this before; is this true? --FrankB
"all epoxies, do break when exposed to UV radiation for extented time,
failing will of course depend how strong and how long exposed ( in florida
this is typically 4 to 6 months) - all epoxies will have pinholes, means
tiny little spots for water to get in I have used it to build up very deep
looking clear finish but it NEEDS to be protected from UV."
"Epoxy is thick and does not lay down or flow like varnish or urethane,
means once you are done with it, sanding starts and in case you want
beautifull finish it has to be over coated with good urethane."
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:53 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
>>
> I can only speak for the product line up of Industrial
> Formulators of Canada,but since you is Canadian,eh,this might help:-
)
Thanks for all that information. I have copied it and will consider
it the "Gospel of epoxy according to St. Peter":-)
As you may know IFC has been taken over by System Three and one of
the reasons was that System Three(S3) wanted to aquire some of IFC's
recipes, especially for the Cold Cure line.I have used both brands
and find them quite similar. In other words pretty darn forgiving!
I downloaded the IFC booklet "Understanding Epoxy" and the System
Three "The Epoxy Book". Everything I have read so far confirms your
own experience. S3 mentions using "at least" 3 coatings of
penetrating expoxy prior to painting or varnishing. And for
fiberglassing they recommend sealing the wood first with one coating
of their regular laminating formulation.
There is some interesting info in the S3 book that claims there is no
advantage in using heavy glass and certainly not mat nor roving with
epoxy and plywood. Just adds to the weight and expense. Glass is only
structural when used as a tape for joints. They recommend 4 oz. glass
everywhere else, with possibly two layer below the waterline, for
extra abrasion protection. They also recommend sealing and
glassing/painting the panels flat as much as you can - and then
assembling the boat and glassing the joints. I know PB&F mention this
as well in some of their newer creations and I wonder - is this
becoming a more standard practice? If so... Does one leave the edges
of the panels untouched until assembly? Can the edge strips be
protected with masking tape or what? (Obviously the edge grain must
be sealed as well.)
Any thoughts on doing this would be much appreciated.
And yes we are having a nice dump of snow which is much appreciated
as well. Rather beautiful out except for the odd snarling snowmobile
going by. I look forward to getting the skis out and all waxed up. We
are so lucky to have snow unlike some of the other poor souls that
never get to see it except in the news reels or winter Olympics if
they are lucky.
Cheers, Nels
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nels, where did you download IFC's "Understanding Epoxy?" --FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
I downloaded the IFC booklet "Understanding Epoxy" and the System
Three "The Epoxy Book".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
I downloaded the IFC booklet "Understanding Epoxy" and the System
Three "The Epoxy Book".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
can you use a oil base paint that is thinned out to seal the wood and just be as effective in sealing the wood against water and water vapor
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
Thanks for all that information. I have copied it and will consider
it the "Gospel of epoxy according to St. Peter":-)
As you may know IFC has been taken over by System Three and one of
the reasons was that System Three(S3) wanted to aquire some of IFC's
recipes, especially for the Cold Cure line.I have used both brands
and find them quite similar. In other words pretty darn forgiving!
I downloaded the IFC booklet "Understanding Epoxy" and the System
Three "The Epoxy Book". Everything I have read so far confirms your
own experience. S3 mentions using "at least" 3 coatings of
penetrating expoxy prior to painting or varnishing. And for
fiberglassing they recommend sealing the wood first with one coating
of their regular laminating formulation.
There is some interesting info in the S3 book that claims there is no
advantage in using heavy glass and certainly not mat nor roving with
epoxy and plywood. Just adds to the weight and expense. Glass is only
structural when used as a tape for joints. They recommend 4 oz. glass
everywhere else, with possibly two layer below the waterline, for
extra abrasion protection. They also recommend sealing and
glassing/painting the panels flat as much as you can - and then
assembling the boat and glassing the joints. I know PB&F mention this
as well in some of their newer creations and I wonder - is this
becoming a more standard practice? If so... Does one leave the edges
of the panels untouched until assembly? Can the edge strips be
protected with masking tape or what? (Obviously the edge grain must
be sealed as well.)
Any thoughts on doing this would be much appreciated.
And yes we are having a nice dump of snow which is much appreciated
as well. Rather beautiful out except for the odd snarling snowmobile
going by. I look forward to getting the skis out and all waxed up. We
are so lucky to have snow unlike some of the other poor souls that
never get to see it except in the news reels or winter Olympics if
they are lucky.
Cheers, Nels
>>)
> I can only speak for the product line up of Industrial
> Formulators of Canada,but since you is Canadian,eh,this might help:-
Thanks for all that information. I have copied it and will consider
it the "Gospel of epoxy according to St. Peter":-)
As you may know IFC has been taken over by System Three and one of
the reasons was that System Three(S3) wanted to aquire some of IFC's
recipes, especially for the Cold Cure line.I have used both brands
and find them quite similar. In other words pretty darn forgiving!
I downloaded the IFC booklet "Understanding Epoxy" and the System
Three "The Epoxy Book". Everything I have read so far confirms your
own experience. S3 mentions using "at least" 3 coatings of
penetrating expoxy prior to painting or varnishing. And for
fiberglassing they recommend sealing the wood first with one coating
of their regular laminating formulation.
There is some interesting info in the S3 book that claims there is no
advantage in using heavy glass and certainly not mat nor roving with
epoxy and plywood. Just adds to the weight and expense. Glass is only
structural when used as a tape for joints. They recommend 4 oz. glass
everywhere else, with possibly two layer below the waterline, for
extra abrasion protection. They also recommend sealing and
glassing/painting the panels flat as much as you can - and then
assembling the boat and glassing the joints. I know PB&F mention this
as well in some of their newer creations and I wonder - is this
becoming a more standard practice? If so... Does one leave the edges
of the panels untouched until assembly? Can the edge strips be
protected with masking tape or what? (Obviously the edge grain must
be sealed as well.)
Any thoughts on doing this would be much appreciated.
And yes we are having a nice dump of snow which is much appreciated
as well. Rather beautiful out except for the odd snarling snowmobile
going by. I look forward to getting the skis out and all waxed up. We
are so lucky to have snow unlike some of the other poor souls that
never get to see it except in the news reels or winter Olympics if
they are lucky.
Cheers, Nels
The degassing of the VOC's (solvents) is effected by
temperature and epoxy type. It is possible to degas
and have a seal and some of the solvents can also be
encapsulated into the epoxy.
Remember with the exception of 100% solid and latex
paint all paints have solvents that do evaporate off
with out leaving a porous surface.
Lon
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
temperature and epoxy type. It is possible to degas
and have a seal and some of the solvents can also be
encapsulated into the epoxy.
Remember with the exception of 100% solid and latex
paint all paints have solvents that do evaporate off
with out leaving a porous surface.
Lon
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
> > First the solvent evaporates leaving some__________________________________
> porosity.
>
> In other words, if the solvent can get out, water
> vapor can get in.
> it may penetrate, but does it seal?
>
> Peter
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
. But I was also interested
> in practical experience feedback. > Nels
Hiya Captain Nels!
I can only speak for the product line up of Industrial
Formulators of Canada,but since you is Canadian,eh,this might help:-)
Regarding the S1 sealer; it has been my experience that generally it
took 3 coats of S1 to fully seal the Simpson MDO.By fully sealed I
mean,when the panel is looked at from an acute angle under lamp
light,the surface appears as uniform glass-like surface.Ideally,the
first 2 coats are applied back to back and allowed to cure.After a
light sanding,the 3rd and final coat is applied therby sealing
forever even the little imaginary holes left over from escaping
gases.This surface is then,in my experience,protected from further
moisture penetration and ready for whatever paint you wish to
apply,provided you do not skip the paint manufacturers prepping
instructions....oh yes,all the tedious sanding and washing down of
the surface in question:-)
For surfaces intended for fiberglassing, I only use a
laminating epoxy resin,specifically IFC 83-HA4. This epoxy resin has
about the same initial viscosity as the S1 Sealer and thus penetrates
readily and rapidly the glass cloth and well into the underlaying
wood without much hardship.Whenever I think back to the times when I
have used WEST EPOXY et.al; for glassing I cannot believe all the
little bits of grief that had to be dealt with as part of the process
like;rolling out AND IN the epoxy to make sure it was penetrating
enough into the fiberglass,the "blush" left on the cured surface and
the inevitable holidays where the darned epoxy just didn't soak into
the glass enough,the ticking clock etc...:-(
Happily,I was turned on to proper laminating resins and it has been
a joy ever since.Simply using a plasters blade,the epoxy is spread
out onto the glass.No ringed rollers,no holidays,no blush.......no
sweat! All you get is total saturation/penetration and a rock hard
surface.
My approach for this application is; 2 coats,with the second coat
going on only when the first coat is just tacky.Then the whole thing
is allowed to cure,gets a thorough sanding and the 3rd final coat
goes on
like glass:-)
Today, I trust that other epoxy fabricators must also have a
similar product available besides there regular"construction" epoxies.
This may seem like a monumental waste of time for some builders and I
have to admit it may well be.It all depends on what your expectations
are for the end product:-) It also would appear to me that if one is
going to go the high tech route and use epoxy to build a boat in the
first place,then little is to be gained by skimping in the full
application of this chemical technology.
Anyhow Nels, I hope this helps a bit toward the answers you are
seeking.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who heard you guys got a fair dumping of neige
recently.......my sympathies :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
I guess I would want to do both if I wanted to keep water out. My
question is however, not what I want to accomplish - but what is the
most economical way to accomplish it and have long lasting results?
For example - most paint comes off when moisture gets trapped under
the paint and the heat/cooling cycle causes hairline cracking in the
coating allowing more moisture in. So by sealing the wood and
applying a paint that bonds chemcially to the sealer - will last much
longer than simply slathering on several coats of paint - which
technically may "seem" to seal the water out for awhile anyway.
If one does it the best way initially - then it will last a lot
longer. But when is enough enough? When does "fully functional"
change over to a case of overkill - thus spending time and effort and
money - which could be invested more effectively in other facets -
like quality sails and motor?
Or get you out enjoying the boat sooner!
I realize this is very subjective and depends on many outside
factors - such as quality of the material and skill level of the
builder. Yet I can't help but wonder if there are some basic
guidlines.
I have applied for membership with the System Three Group and they
have some material available that may answer these questions for me.
Industral Formulators also has some info. But I was also interested
in practical experience feedback. It may sound like a broken record
but there are new members coming aboard here all the time.
BTW Roger, thanks again for the info on Chebacco Cruiser:-)
Nels
> Given the nature of the cells in wood, "sealing" may depend on whatyou're
> after. Consider sealing a soda straw. Is it sealed when the wallsof the
> tube are waterproofed, or when the hole is plugged?Hi Roger,
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
I guess I would want to do both if I wanted to keep water out. My
question is however, not what I want to accomplish - but what is the
most economical way to accomplish it and have long lasting results?
For example - most paint comes off when moisture gets trapped under
the paint and the heat/cooling cycle causes hairline cracking in the
coating allowing more moisture in. So by sealing the wood and
applying a paint that bonds chemcially to the sealer - will last much
longer than simply slathering on several coats of paint - which
technically may "seem" to seal the water out for awhile anyway.
If one does it the best way initially - then it will last a lot
longer. But when is enough enough? When does "fully functional"
change over to a case of overkill - thus spending time and effort and
money - which could be invested more effectively in other facets -
like quality sails and motor?
Or get you out enjoying the boat sooner!
I realize this is very subjective and depends on many outside
factors - such as quality of the material and skill level of the
builder. Yet I can't help but wonder if there are some basic
guidlines.
I have applied for membership with the System Three Group and they
have some material available that may answer these questions for me.
Industral Formulators also has some info. But I was also interested
in practical experience feedback. It may sound like a broken record
but there are new members coming aboard here all the time.
BTW Roger, thanks again for the info on Chebacco Cruiser:-)
Nels
Given the nature of the cells in wood, "sealing" may depend on what you're
after. Consider sealing a soda straw. Is it sealed when the walls of the
tube are waterproofed, or when the hole is plugged?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
after. Consider sealing a soda straw. Is it sealed when the walls of the
tube are waterproofed, or when the hole is plugged?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> That seems to be one of the areas of controversy and the answer
> depends a lot on manufactureres claims for their products. Seems to
> be two major uses for penetrating epoxies. One is as a rot stablizer
> and the question arises as to what happens when one stabilizes and
> seals the wood that one is restoring. Am I sealing in the existing
> moisture and /or preventing new moisture from getting in? Some
> manufactureres claim that their product does both, by allowing water
> VAPOUR to escape and prevent MOISTURE from seeping in. These claims
> seem to be a bit questionable in some peoples minds.
>
> The other use for PE is as a wood sealer that fills and seals the
> surface of the wood so that either paint or a layer of glass can be
> applied over it and will create a totally weatherproof protection
> for the underlying wood.
>
> Since I will be using only new, dry wood - I am only interested in
> the second usage. Either using it as a paint sealer or as a prep-coat
> prior to glassing.
>
> When using it as a sealer prior to painting there are two schools of
> thought. One is apply it until it no longer penetrates - usually up
> to three coats or more - depending on the porosity of the wood. The
> second school is that one layer is enough and will provide a good
> base for paint, which is what actually seals the wood.
>
> When using it as a sealer prior to glassing it is used to seal the
> outer layer of wood so that the epoxy used to bond the glass to the
> surface does not have "starved" spots when some of the coating is
> absorbed by the underlying wood. This is particularly important when
> using cheap plywood or when strip planking where the various strips
> may have varying porosity.
>
> So again, two schools of thought. Apply several coats of deep
> penetrating epoxy or just one of medium - since that will seal the
> exterior of the wood to prevent starved areas in the glass.
>
> At the price of epoxies these days and the extra time involved
> applying all the various coatings, I am wondering what is the
> consensus when building a boat that is either strip planked or
> plywood?
>
> Two conclusions I have come to are first - the more you spend on good
> wood - the more you likely save on epoxy. And it may be smarter to
> invest some of the epoxy money in better paints and exterior coatings.
>
> A couple more observations. Adding additional coatings of epoxy to
> bare wood does not really make it any stronger - just stiffer.
>
> Putting on heavier layers of glass cloth does not make a plywood hull
> that much stronger. It adds weight and abrasion resistance. Might be
> better to use thicker plywood instead.
>
> Also, it is very important to seal end grain on solid wood and edges
> of plywood. This is where most of the rot damage begins - even when
> these areas are completely sealed over by cap rails and such.
>
> Any clarification or illumination on these items would be much
> appreciated.
>
> The idea is of course to get the most bang for the buck.
>
> Nels
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > > First the solvent evaporates leaving some porosity.
> >
> > In other words, if the solvent can get out, water vapor can get in.
> > it may penetrate, but does it seal?
> >
> > Peter
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Hi Peter,
That seems to be one of the areas of controversy and the answer
depends a lot on manufactureres claims for their products. Seems to
be two major uses for penetrating epoxies. One is as a rot stablizer
and the question arises as to what happens when one stabilizes and
seals the wood that one is restoring. Am I sealing in the existing
moisture and /or preventing new moisture from getting in? Some
manufactureres claim that their product does both, by allowing water
VAPOUR to escape and prevent MOISTURE from seeping in. These claims
seem to be a bit questionable in some peoples minds.
The other use for PE is as a wood sealer that fills and seals the
surface of the wood so that either paint or a layer of glass can be
applied over it and will create a totally weatherproof protection
for the underlying wood.
Since I will be using only new, dry wood - I am only interested in
the second usage. Either using it as a paint sealer or as a prep-coat
prior to glassing.
When using it as a sealer prior to painting there are two schools of
thought. One is apply it until it no longer penetrates - usually up
to three coats or more - depending on the porosity of the wood. The
second school is that one layer is enough and will provide a good
base for paint, which is what actually seals the wood.
When using it as a sealer prior to glassing it is used to seal the
outer layer of wood so that the epoxy used to bond the glass to the
surface does not have "starved" spots when some of the coating is
absorbed by the underlying wood. This is particularly important when
using cheap plywood or when strip planking where the various strips
may have varying porosity.
So again, two schools of thought. Apply several coats of deep
penetrating epoxy or just one of medium - since that will seal the
exterior of the wood to prevent starved areas in the glass.
At the price of epoxies these days and the extra time involved
applying all the various coatings, I am wondering what is the
consensus when building a boat that is either strip planked or
plywood?
Two conclusions I have come to are first - the more you spend on good
wood - the more you likely save on epoxy. And it may be smarter to
invest some of the epoxy money in better paints and exterior coatings.
A couple more observations. Adding additional coatings of epoxy to
bare wood does not really make it any stronger - just stiffer.
Putting on heavier layers of glass cloth does not make a plywood hull
that much stronger. It adds weight and abrasion resistance. Might be
better to use thicker plywood instead.
Also, it is very important to seal end grain on solid wood and edges
of plywood. This is where most of the rot damage begins - even when
these areas are completely sealed over by cap rails and such.
Any clarification or illumination on these items would be much
appreciated.
The idea is of course to get the most bang for the buck.
Nels
That seems to be one of the areas of controversy and the answer
depends a lot on manufactureres claims for their products. Seems to
be two major uses for penetrating epoxies. One is as a rot stablizer
and the question arises as to what happens when one stabilizes and
seals the wood that one is restoring. Am I sealing in the existing
moisture and /or preventing new moisture from getting in? Some
manufactureres claim that their product does both, by allowing water
VAPOUR to escape and prevent MOISTURE from seeping in. These claims
seem to be a bit questionable in some peoples minds.
The other use for PE is as a wood sealer that fills and seals the
surface of the wood so that either paint or a layer of glass can be
applied over it and will create a totally weatherproof protection
for the underlying wood.
Since I will be using only new, dry wood - I am only interested in
the second usage. Either using it as a paint sealer or as a prep-coat
prior to glassing.
When using it as a sealer prior to painting there are two schools of
thought. One is apply it until it no longer penetrates - usually up
to three coats or more - depending on the porosity of the wood. The
second school is that one layer is enough and will provide a good
base for paint, which is what actually seals the wood.
When using it as a sealer prior to glassing it is used to seal the
outer layer of wood so that the epoxy used to bond the glass to the
surface does not have "starved" spots when some of the coating is
absorbed by the underlying wood. This is particularly important when
using cheap plywood or when strip planking where the various strips
may have varying porosity.
So again, two schools of thought. Apply several coats of deep
penetrating epoxy or just one of medium - since that will seal the
exterior of the wood to prevent starved areas in the glass.
At the price of epoxies these days and the extra time involved
applying all the various coatings, I am wondering what is the
consensus when building a boat that is either strip planked or
plywood?
Two conclusions I have come to are first - the more you spend on good
wood - the more you likely save on epoxy. And it may be smarter to
invest some of the epoxy money in better paints and exterior coatings.
A couple more observations. Adding additional coatings of epoxy to
bare wood does not really make it any stronger - just stiffer.
Putting on heavier layers of glass cloth does not make a plywood hull
that much stronger. It adds weight and abrasion resistance. Might be
better to use thicker plywood instead.
Also, it is very important to seal end grain on solid wood and edges
of plywood. This is where most of the rot damage begins - even when
these areas are completely sealed over by cap rails and such.
Any clarification or illumination on these items would be much
appreciated.
The idea is of course to get the most bang for the buck.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > First the solvent evaporates leaving some porosity.
>
> In other words, if the solvent can get out, water vapor can get in.
> it may penetrate, but does it seal?
>
> Peter
> First the solvent evaporates leaving some porosity.In other words, if the solvent can get out, water vapor can get in.
it may penetrate, but does it seal?
Peter
You can see their products athttp://www.systemthree.com/
The stuff for your windows is athttp://www.systemthree.com/p_rot_fix.asp
It was strictly mail-order. You phone 1-800-333-5514. I was surprised to
see they now have "retail outlets."
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
The stuff for your windows is athttp://www.systemthree.com/p_rot_fix.asp
It was strictly mail-order. You phone 1-800-333-5514. I was surprised to
see they now have "retail outlets."
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Vaughan" <cvaughan@...>
> Where is the best place to buy this System 3 epoxy.
> I need some to repair some rotten places in my windows.
> I live in Beaufort, NC and everything rots like crazy around here.
>cvaughan@...
> Thanks
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nels
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:15 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
>
>
> I agree, having used System Three. We have a company here in Canada
> that makes almost an identical line call Industrial Formulators -
> which was bought out by System Three - so the two lines are very
> similar. They both advertise that the have no added solvents in their
> penetrating epoxies ("100% solids") whatever that means.
>
> I guess the guy at the website is questioning how a company can thin
> it's products using 70% solvents, make outlandish claims about it's
> effectiveness to turn rotten wood back into it's original strength,
> and convince normally intelligent boat restorers to swear by it!
>
> What it does is penetrate into the decayed structure of the wood -
> where the structural cells have been broken open - and leaves some
> epoxy behind after the solvents evaporate. The thin strands of epoxy
> left behind are purported to keep water out yet allow the wood to
> breath by allowing water vapor to escape. But in normal healthy wood
> it penetrates no further than a regular penetrating epoxy which
> leaves a much more sealed coating.
>
> In other words it only works in wood that should probably be replaced
> anyway! Sort of like using bondo to "repair" the rust holes in your
> car.
>
> Boy there was really some heated discussions going on about it in the
> WB forum:-)
>
> One thing I learned of interest was that one coating of the System
> Three type penetrating epoxy under the paint provides a good
> sealer/bonding agent for the paint - which can be applied when the
> epoxy is still tacky. Many people use two or three applications which
> may be a bit of overkill and an extra expense. (Talking about the
> interior of a boat now.)
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> >
> > That resin formula is probably wonderfully brushable. And possibly
> less toxic. Must agree
> > on Sys3. Love their T-88 glue.
> >
> > Not so sure, though, how keenly biased the PEP info pages seem to
> me, particularly right
> > there. I'm amused that no matter he tells you to just go thin it
> with some solvent by
> > yourself, he carries a reduced one anyway. Must be a demand.
> >
> > Mark
> > Rob Mouradian wrote:
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Where is the best place to buy this System 3 epoxy.
I need some to repair some rotten places in my windows.
I live in Beaufort, NC and everything rots like crazy around here.
cvaughan@...
Thanks
-------------------------------------------
I need some to repair some rotten places in my windows.
I live in Beaufort, NC and everything rots like crazy around here.
cvaughan@...
Thanks
-------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 8:15 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Penetrating Epoxies
I agree, having used System Three. We have a company here in Canada
that makes almost an identical line call Industrial Formulators -
which was bought out by System Three - so the two lines are very
similar. They both advertise that the have no added solvents in their
penetrating epoxies ("100% solids") whatever that means.
I guess the guy at the website is questioning how a company can thin
it's products using 70% solvents, make outlandish claims about it's
effectiveness to turn rotten wood back into it's original strength,
and convince normally intelligent boat restorers to swear by it!
What it does is penetrate into the decayed structure of the wood -
where the structural cells have been broken open - and leaves some
epoxy behind after the solvents evaporate. The thin strands of epoxy
left behind are purported to keep water out yet allow the wood to
breath by allowing water vapor to escape. But in normal healthy wood
it penetrates no further than a regular penetrating epoxy which
leaves a much more sealed coating.
In other words it only works in wood that should probably be replaced
anyway! Sort of like using bondo to "repair" the rust holes in your
car.
Boy there was really some heated discussions going on about it in the
WB forum:-)
One thing I learned of interest was that one coating of the System
Three type penetrating epoxy under the paint provides a good
sealer/bonding agent for the paint - which can be applied when the
epoxy is still tacky. Many people use two or three applications which
may be a bit of overkill and an extra expense. (Talking about the
interior of a boat now.)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
>
> That resin formula is probably wonderfully brushable. And possibly
less toxic. Must agree
> on Sys3. Love their T-88 glue.
>
> Not so sure, though, how keenly biased the PEP info pages seem to
me, particularly right
> there. I'm amused that no matter he tells you to just go thin it
with some solvent by
> yourself, he carries a reduced one anyway. Must be a demand.
>
> Mark
> Rob Mouradian wrote:
>
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Epoxy should only be used in a well ventilated area away from open
flames. It is the solvents that are the most dangerous.
I saw somewhere that there is an epoxy that has fire retardents in
it, but I can't recall who makes it.
The world of epoxies, adhesives, sealants, and other coatings and
finishes and plastics and composites has become incredibly
complicated in my view. Sort like witchcraft in some ways - chemists
toiling over smoking and bubbling secret concoctions in the back
rooms.
Wonder when they will develope a good hockey stick? Or better yet a
spar varnish that actually survives in the sun:-)
Cheers, Nels
flames. It is the solvents that are the most dangerous.
I saw somewhere that there is an epoxy that has fire retardents in
it, but I can't recall who makes it.
The world of epoxies, adhesives, sealants, and other coatings and
finishes and plastics and composites has become incredibly
complicated in my view. Sort like witchcraft in some ways - chemists
toiling over smoking and bubbling secret concoctions in the back
rooms.
Wonder when they will develope a good hockey stick? Or better yet a
spar varnish that actually survives in the sun:-)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Comfrey <mike78612003@y...> wrote:
> question:
> when these resins are fully dry does in crease the any burn rate or
do the flumes come out of the finished product,, like if a stove is
near by the cured board???
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
With solvent reduced epoxies there are two things happening. First the
solvent evaporates leaving some porosity. The solvents are usually
something toxic or explosive from what I have read on these sites.
Secondly the epoxy cures (not dries). Once the solvents evaporate and
disperses the fire danger is reduced below explosive levels. With the
epoxies themselves developing sensitivity to the chemicals is probably
a bigger problem than fumes.
Bob Chamberland
solvent evaporates leaving some porosity. The solvents are usually
something toxic or explosive from what I have read on these sites.
Secondly the epoxy cures (not dries). Once the solvents evaporate and
disperses the fire danger is reduced below explosive levels. With the
epoxies themselves developing sensitivity to the chemicals is probably
a bigger problem than fumes.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Comfrey <mike78612003@y...> wrote:
> question:
> when these resins are fully dry does in crease the any burn rate or
do the flumes come out of the finished product,, like if a stove is
near by the cured board???
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
question:
when these resins are fully dry does in crease the any burn rate or do the flumes come out of the finished product,, like if a stove is near by the cured board???
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when these resins are fully dry does in crease the any burn rate or do the flumes come out of the finished product,, like if a stove is near by the cured board???
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Lincoln,
I certainly agree and I have no intention of doing it myself. But
according to the weblink I posted that is what some epoxy
manufactureres use in their rot fix formulas according to their MSDS
that they must declare by law.
"Aromatic hydrocarbons" is the fancy name for the family of
inflamable materials that include gasolene and kerosene apparently.
The other thing worth noting is that the manufacturer only has to
declare the percentage by weight and not volume and these additives
are very light, while epoxy solids are heavier than water. So when
they give the weight of a liter of product as 675 grams, then it must
have a large amount of non solids according to the guy supplying the
information.
So these are a couple of things a person might be able to check out
when comparing epoxies. Something that is sold as an "epoxy" may in
fact be predominately additives. There is very little control over
this industry to maintain a certain standard.
Nels
I certainly agree and I have no intention of doing it myself. But
according to the weblink I posted that is what some epoxy
manufactureres use in their rot fix formulas according to their MSDS
that they must declare by law.
"Aromatic hydrocarbons" is the fancy name for the family of
inflamable materials that include gasolene and kerosene apparently.
The other thing worth noting is that the manufacturer only has to
declare the percentage by weight and not volume and these additives
are very light, while epoxy solids are heavier than water. So when
they give the weight of a liter of product as 675 grams, then it must
have a large amount of non solids according to the guy supplying the
information.
So these are a couple of things a person might be able to check out
when comparing epoxies. Something that is sold as an "epoxy" may in
fact be predominately additives. There is very little control over
this industry to maintain a certain standard.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> White gas? Ugh! Smelly and dangerous. Can't you use something else?
> Kerosene is pretty smelly too, isn't it? ANd I don't think they are
> anything like each other in practice.
White gas? Ugh! Smelly and dangerous. Can't you use something else?
Kerosene is pretty smelly too, isn't it? ANd I don't think they are
anything like each other in practice. My inclination would be to just
use a heat gun (carefully and with ventilation) but it would depend on
the application. I'm not sure I believe all those rants at
epoxyproducts. Maybe he's right but, for instance, in my experience
blush wipes right off with water, contrary to what he says. But maybe
non-Raka blush isn't the same?
Kerosene is pretty smelly too, isn't it? ANd I don't think they are
anything like each other in practice. My inclination would be to just
use a heat gun (carefully and with ventilation) but it would depend on
the application. I'm not sure I believe all those rants at
epoxyproducts. Maybe he's right but, for instance, in my experience
blush wipes right off with water, contrary to what he says. But maybe
non-Raka blush isn't the same?
>"Nels" <arvent@...>
>wrote:
>
>snip
>
>Seems one of the most common forms of
>solvents is quite a bit the same as kerosene or white gas (Coleman
>fuel). Also rubbing alcohol and paint thinners are used.
>
>So you may be paying epoxy prices for kerosene - when you can thin it
>yourself.
>
>http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html
>
>Cheers, Nels
>
I agree, having used System Three. We have a company here in Canada
that makes almost an identical line call Industrial Formulators -
which was bought out by System Three - so the two lines are very
similar. They both advertise that the have no added solvents in their
penetrating epoxies ("100% solids") whatever that means.
I guess the guy at the website is questioning how a company can thin
it's products using 70% solvents, make outlandish claims about it's
effectiveness to turn rotten wood back into it's original strength,
and convince normally intelligent boat restorers to swear by it!
What it does is penetrate into the decayed structure of the wood -
where the structural cells have been broken open - and leaves some
epoxy behind after the solvents evaporate. The thin strands of epoxy
left behind are purported to keep water out yet allow the wood to
breath by allowing water vapor to escape. But in normal healthy wood
it penetrates no further than a regular penetrating epoxy which
leaves a much more sealed coating.
In other words it only works in wood that should probably be replaced
anyway! Sort of like using bondo to "repair" the rust holes in your
car.
Boy there was really some heated discussions going on about it in the
WB forum:-)
One thing I learned of interest was that one coating of the System
Three type penetrating epoxy under the paint provides a good
sealer/bonding agent for the paint - which can be applied when the
epoxy is still tacky. Many people use two or three applications which
may be a bit of overkill and an extra expense. (Talking about the
interior of a boat now.)
Cheers, Nels
that makes almost an identical line call Industrial Formulators -
which was bought out by System Three - so the two lines are very
similar. They both advertise that the have no added solvents in their
penetrating epoxies ("100% solids") whatever that means.
I guess the guy at the website is questioning how a company can thin
it's products using 70% solvents, make outlandish claims about it's
effectiveness to turn rotten wood back into it's original strength,
and convince normally intelligent boat restorers to swear by it!
What it does is penetrate into the decayed structure of the wood -
where the structural cells have been broken open - and leaves some
epoxy behind after the solvents evaporate. The thin strands of epoxy
left behind are purported to keep water out yet allow the wood to
breath by allowing water vapor to escape. But in normal healthy wood
it penetrates no further than a regular penetrating epoxy which
leaves a much more sealed coating.
In other words it only works in wood that should probably be replaced
anyway! Sort of like using bondo to "repair" the rust holes in your
car.
Boy there was really some heated discussions going on about it in the
WB forum:-)
One thing I learned of interest was that one coating of the System
Three type penetrating epoxy under the paint provides a good
sealer/bonding agent for the paint - which can be applied when the
epoxy is still tacky. Many people use two or three applications which
may be a bit of overkill and an extra expense. (Talking about the
interior of a boat now.)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
>
> That resin formula is probably wonderfully brushable. And possibly
less toxic. Must agree
> on Sys3. Love their T-88 glue.
>
> Not so sure, though, how keenly biased the PEP info pages seem to
me, particularly right
> there. I'm amused that no matter he tells you to just go thin it
with some solvent by
> yourself, he carries a reduced one anyway. Must be a demand.
>
> Mark
> Rob Mouradian wrote:
>
> > Thanks Gentlemen,
> >
> > Seems like a lot of the discussion at the WB site had to do with
> > using penetrating epoxy for wood rot, whereas I am considering it
> as
> > a sealer prior to glassing. There seems to be a lot of support for
> > the idea of thinning a regular low viscosity laminating epoxy by
> > about 10% as mentioned. Also that warming the plywood and the epoxy
> > increases absorption.
> >
> > Some of the "rot restoration" ones have as high as 70% solvents!
> >
> > Nels
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > I am not sure that it is that simple. I have heard that the
> > > performance of these products varies greatly and I suspect that
> the
> > > ratio of various solvents does have an impact.
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
That resin formula is probably wonderfully brushable. And possibly less toxic. Must agree
on Sys3. Love their T-88 glue.
Not so sure, though, how keenly biased the PEP info pages seem to me, particularly right
there. I'm amused that no matter he tells you to just go thin it with some solvent by
yourself, he carries a reduced one anyway. Must be a demand.
Mark
Rob Mouradian wrote:
on Sys3. Love their T-88 glue.
Not so sure, though, how keenly biased the PEP info pages seem to me, particularly right
there. I'm amused that no matter he tells you to just go thin it with some solvent by
yourself, he carries a reduced one anyway. Must be a demand.
Mark
Rob Mouradian wrote:
> Also, please note that the "Epoxyproducts" web site is a company
> trying to sell you their thinned epoxy, so the "data" they
> present "may" be somewhat biased. I have never used their products
> so I cannot offer any opinion. But I have used CPES as a primer and
> it seems to work well.
>
> For your application, you might also look as the System 3 web site.
> They have a special low-viscosity product that is intended for that
> type of use. Apparently it is not thinned with solvents, but instead
> is a different formulation of epoxy. I never used it and don't know
> the cost. But, I do know that they generally make good products.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
Nels,
For your application, you might also look as the System 3 web site.
They have a special low-viscosity product that is intended for that
type of use. Apparently it is not thinned with solvents, but instead
is a different formulation of epoxy. I never used it and don't know
the cost. But, I do know that they generally make good products.
Regards,
Rob
> Thanks Gentlemen,
>
> Seems like a lot of the discussion at the WB site had to do with
> using penetrating epoxy for wood rot, whereas I am considering it
as
> a sealer prior to glassing. There seems to be a lot of support for
> the idea of thinning a regular low viscosity laminating epoxy by
> about 10% as mentioned. Also that warming the plywood and the epoxy
> increases absorption.
>
> Some of the "rot restoration" ones have as high as 70% solvents!
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
> wrote:
> > I am not sure that it is that simple. I have heard that the
> > performance of these products varies greatly and I suspect that
the
> > ratio of various solvents does have an impact.
> >
> >
Thanks Gentlemen,
Seems like a lot of the discussion at the WB site had to do with
using penetrating epoxy for wood rot, whereas I am considering it as
a sealer prior to glassing. There seems to be a lot of support for
the idea of thinning a regular low viscosity laminating epoxy by
about 10% as mentioned. Also that warming the plywood and the epoxy
increases absorption.
Some of the "rot restoration" ones have as high as 70% solvents!
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
Seems like a lot of the discussion at the WB site had to do with
using penetrating epoxy for wood rot, whereas I am considering it as
a sealer prior to glassing. There seems to be a lot of support for
the idea of thinning a regular low viscosity laminating epoxy by
about 10% as mentioned. Also that warming the plywood and the epoxy
increases absorption.
Some of the "rot restoration" ones have as high as 70% solvents!
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
> I am not sure that it is that simple. I have heard that the
> performance of these products varies greatly and I suspect that the
> ratio of various solvents does have an impact.
>
>
I am not sure that it is that simple. I have heard that the
performance of these products varies greatly and I suspect that the
ratio of various solvents does have an impact.
I expect you can thin epoxy a bit using paint store solvents. But,
the results may not match the better commercial products.
Also, please note that the "Epoxyproducts" web site is a company
trying to sell you their thinned epoxy, so the "data" they
present "may" be somewhat biased. I have never used their products
so I cannot offer any opinion. But I have used CPES as a primer and
it seems to work well.
For those who are interested, there has been much discussion of this
on the forum at the Woodenboat website.
Rob
performance of these products varies greatly and I suspect that the
ratio of various solvents does have an impact.
I expect you can thin epoxy a bit using paint store solvents. But,
the results may not match the better commercial products.
Also, please note that the "Epoxyproducts" web site is a company
trying to sell you their thinned epoxy, so the "data" they
present "may" be somewhat biased. I have never used their products
so I cannot offer any opinion. But I have used CPES as a primer and
it seems to work well.
For those who are interested, there has been much discussion of this
on the forum at the Woodenboat website.
Rob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> The usual suspects are xylene, acetone and lacquer thinner. I've
just added 10% after
> mixing up the resin well.
> That PEP page makes clear the more solvent used the less effective
the epoxy coat will be.
>
> Mark
>
> Nels wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure if this subject has already been explored. If others
> > prepare their own penetrating epoxies I would be interested in
what
> > is used as a solvent and to which part it is added?
> >>http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html
> >
> > Cheers, Nels
The usual suspects are xylene, acetone and lacquer thinner. I've just added 10% after
mixing up the resin well.
That PEP page makes clear the more solvent used the less effective the epoxy coat will be.
Mark
Nels wrote:
mixing up the resin well.
That PEP page makes clear the more solvent used the less effective the epoxy coat will be.
Mark
Nels wrote:
>
> I am not sure if this subject has already been explored. If others
> prepare their own penetrating epoxies I would be interested in what
> is used as a solvent and to which part it is added?
>>http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html
>
> Cheers, Nels
I am not sure if this subject has already been explored. If others
prepare their own penetrating epoxies I would be interested in what
is used as a solvent and to which part it is added?
According to some research and studies done in the U.S.A. -
penetrating epoxy is simply regular epoxy thinned down with various
solvents some as much as 50%! Seems one of the most common forms of
solvents is quite a bit the same as kerosene or white gas (Coleman
fuel). Also rubbing alcohol and paint thinners are used.
So you may be paying epoxy prices for kerosene - when you can thin it
yourself.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html
Cheers, Nels
prepare their own penetrating epoxies I would be interested in what
is used as a solvent and to which part it is added?
According to some research and studies done in the U.S.A. -
penetrating epoxy is simply regular epoxy thinned down with various
solvents some as much as 50%! Seems one of the most common forms of
solvents is quite a bit the same as kerosene or white gas (Coleman
fuel). Also rubbing alcohol and paint thinners are used.
So you may be paying epoxy prices for kerosene - when you can thin it
yourself.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html
Cheers, Nels