Re: filleting materials
If I was filleting with caulk instead of epoxy I would consider that
approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I'd use extra layers
of glass to make sure the fillet didn't buckle. Seems to me a stronger
fillet material would be worthwhile. I don't know how strong the fillet
material needs to be but my intuition says a certain number of
microballoons could be used to make things cheaper and lighter without
seam failure.
approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I'd use extra layers
of glass to make sure the fillet didn't buckle. Seems to me a stronger
fillet material would be worthwhile. I don't know how strong the fillet
material needs to be but my intuition says a certain number of
microballoons could be used to make things cheaper and lighter without
seam failure.
--- Lincoln Ross wrote:
painter's caulk to fill gaps between
deck beams and the plywood deck
on portions of my Micro Navigator.
[It saved me the trouble of cutting
and fitting wood shims.]
I just tested the caulk, [poked it
with a screw driver]. The year
old hardened caulk is about the
same as you would expect with
hardened Plaster of Paris. You
can scratch it, but it is tight.
I dare say, it resists scratches and
chips better than the adjacent wood.
I agree epoxy is better, but how
much does 'better' help, if it is
attached to wood?
Caulk is stronger than air.
>... caulk ... I would consider thatA year ago I used the el cheapo
> approximately equivalent to ... air
painter's caulk to fill gaps between
deck beams and the plywood deck
on portions of my Micro Navigator.
[It saved me the trouble of cutting
and fitting wood shims.]
I just tested the caulk, [poked it
with a screw driver]. The year
old hardened caulk is about the
same as you would expect with
hardened Plaster of Paris. You
can scratch it, but it is tight.
I dare say, it resists scratches and
chips better than the adjacent wood.
I agree epoxy is better, but how
much does 'better' help, if it is
attached to wood?
Caulk is stronger than air.
If you compare stitch and glue to wood chine construction, my
impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a
replacement for a chine log, as well as provide a coved suface for
the tape to lie on. The tape provides the attachment surface for the
epoxy. And the epoxy replaces the nails and sealant in the all wood
scenario.
So whatever you use for the fillet is equivalent to how good the wood
is you use for chine logs. You want wood that holds the intended
shape of the hull, and allows some flexibility if impacted by an
object and can take the fastenings without splitting and not fall
apart too soon.
The other thing to consider is the capatability of the fasteners to
the wood and the longevity in that environment that it has to exist
in.
Stitch and glue has some real advantages over the plain wood
construction. It is more forgiving of close fit, is easier to clean
and is not prone to rot, just to name a few.
But the main purpose is to hold the hull together in about the same
way as the older way of using chine logs and battens etc.
Otherwise you could use jam and peanut butter for fillets perhaps?
Easier to remove from the fingers:-)
Nels
impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a
replacement for a chine log, as well as provide a coved suface for
the tape to lie on. The tape provides the attachment surface for the
epoxy. And the epoxy replaces the nails and sealant in the all wood
scenario.
So whatever you use for the fillet is equivalent to how good the wood
is you use for chine logs. You want wood that holds the intended
shape of the hull, and allows some flexibility if impacted by an
object and can take the fastenings without splitting and not fall
apart too soon.
The other thing to consider is the capatability of the fasteners to
the wood and the longevity in that environment that it has to exist
in.
Stitch and glue has some real advantages over the plain wood
construction. It is more forgiving of close fit, is easier to clean
and is not prone to rot, just to name a few.
But the main purpose is to hold the hull together in about the same
way as the older way of using chine logs and battens etc.
Otherwise you could use jam and peanut butter for fillets perhaps?
Easier to remove from the fingers:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
> The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain
the
> geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the
joint.
> For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it
cure
> for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@y...]
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] filleting materials
>
>
>
> I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
> adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
> seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
> painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
> screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
> building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's
going
> to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
> would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
> boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
> used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
> seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
> that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun
it's
> still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
> some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
> that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
> with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and
pressed
> it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was
very
> even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
>
> Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
> is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has
more
> area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened
epoxy
> resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
> fillet. So, would this method work?
>
> 1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
> 2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
> type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into
the
> seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
> 3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
>
> My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
> inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
> little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
> kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
> these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of
strength...
> but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
> more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as
the
> epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
> filleting material is?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions!
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17
05
>
065791:HM/A=1754452/R=0/SIG=11ti8tui3/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?
mqs
> o=60178324&partid=4116719> click here
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egrou
> pmail/S=:HM/A=1754452/rand=216934833>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain the
geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint.
For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it cure
for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@...]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] filleting materials
I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
fillet. So, would this method work?
1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
filleting material is?
Thanks for any suggestions!
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
065791:HM/A=1754452/R=0/SIG=11ti8tui3/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqs
o=60178324&partid=4116719> click here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1754452/rand=216934833>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint.
For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it cure
for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@...]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] filleting materials
I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
fillet. So, would this method work?
1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
filleting material is?
Thanks for any suggestions!
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
065791:HM/A=1754452/R=0/SIG=11ti8tui3/*http:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqs
o=60178324&partid=4116719> click here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1754452/rand=216934833>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- rowingmomma wrote:
in non-critical adhesive areas.
Most recently, to adhere the top
plywood laminate on the roof of
my Micro Navigator, also to adhere
some trim shim laminate. Testing
some I put down a year ago, it seems
strong enough and the tube does say
"25 years", easy clean up, and the
price is right!
> plain old painter's caulkI, too, use plain old painter's caulk
in non-critical adhesive areas.
Most recently, to adhere the top
plywood laminate on the roof of
my Micro Navigator, also to adhere
some trim shim laminate. Testing
some I put down a year ago, it seems
strong enough and the tube does say
"25 years", easy clean up, and the
price is right!
I agree with Nels here about the simplicity of chine logs vs fillets - especially if kids are involved. While my PL fillets are still holding up fine, I now use chine logs on all my projects with kids. Way less mess, and the kids really enjoy the nailing part. Helps if they can nail on the chine log flat on the floor (easier for them). With the right stock dimensions this all works fine and doesn't snap when you later bend it around the molds (haven't had a snap yet). If you are building small and lightweight the chine logs can be a tad under 1 x 2 stock - somewhere between 5/8 and 3/4 thickness has been about right for me, depending on what type of wood you have on hand, and side curvature of your project. Prebore the plywood with a fine bit, use 3/4 ringnails, have the kids wear safety glasses and let them pound away and have fun! Way better than trying to de-goop the kids and explain to parents why their inevitably PL-soaked skin is going to be all black for a few days
!
--Fritz
P.S. Titebond II has worked fine for me with kid projects, attaching chine logs to sides, when backed with the ringnails. I still have the kids use PL for attaching the bottoms - that bottom project is not so goopy as putting the chine logs on the sides, and the seal is a little more critical there.
!
--Fritz
P.S. Titebond II has worked fine for me with kid projects, attaching chine logs to sides, when backed with the ringnails. I still have the kids use PL for attaching the bottoms - that bottom project is not so goopy as putting the chine logs on the sides, and the seal is a little more critical there.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels <arvent@...>
Date: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:08 pm
Subject: [bolger] Re: filleting materials
> Hi,
>
> You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs
> made of 1" square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then
> just
> tape the outer chines. No caulking, no filleting, no mess.
>
> Nels
>
>
Hi,
You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs
made of 1" square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then just
tape the outer chines. No caulking, no filleting, no mess.
Nels
You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs
made of 1" square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then just
tape the outer chines. No caulking, no filleting, no mess.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rowingmomma" <rowingmomma@y...> wrote:
> I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
> adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
> seams.
I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
fillet. So, would this method work?
1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
filleting material is?
Thanks for any suggestions!
adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
fillet. So, would this method work?
1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
filleting material is?
Thanks for any suggestions!