Re: Dingy/Top Slot top cover?

--- "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:

> [slot top cover could be a]
> ...pram type boat that would be
> a water tight cover and
> also serve as a dinghy.

A good idea, until the rainy day
when you want to *use* the dinghy.
I suppose you could drape a tarp
over the slot on those rainy days.

"One could also carry a canoe on the roof and have standing
headroom:-)"

That caught my eye. I know it was meant as a joke (?) but while I
was trying to find the best way to put a top on a "Birdwatcher Type
slot top" for my boat I several times thought seriously about a
purpose built pram type boat that would be a water tight cover and
also serve as a dinghy.
I went as far as making a couple of paper models to go on the model
of my boat.
It would have to be a Very Lightly built dingy, but only about 9'x 3'
to cover my slot top. A "Mouse Boat"?

But, after a while I decided that with less than 0" draft at the bow
of my boat I really didn't Need a dinghy. It will go almost anywhere
a dinghy would be needed to go.
My attempt at a "Pop Top" didn't work very well either. Just
couldn't get the support geometry right for it to Pop and stay Popped.

But, the Dinghy/Top is still not a Real Bad idea.

Properly designed it could cover the big slot hole and give standing
(if one weren't too tall) headroom.
Keep in on if the weather were poor. Still windows in the cabin
sides to see out of. The cabin top could even be used as a counter if
the Dinghy/Top beam were a little wider than the slot.
Remove it and tow it if the weather were nice.
If one were spending some time at a given location the dinghy/top
could be left moored to a heavy night anchor.
When the day playing around in the larger boat was done just come
back to the dinghy (it could have an automatic white anchor light to
help find it if it got dark), grab the anchor line, and put the
dinghy/top on top of the big boat for the night cabin.
("just... put the dinghy/top on top of the big boat" might be the
problem, but it Could be done.)

???
Way too much time to think, now that it's dark outside?

Having Fun

Pat Patteson
"PK-20" Owner
I know it's not a Bolger boat, but it does have a Bolger Slot Top and
a Dinghy/Top sounds like it might be in a Bolger "Cartoon"?
Molalla, Oregon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > Very interesting photo. Could do something like that
> > with a birdwatcher type walk-through. Then I suppose
> > I have a rear-cabin AF4.
> >
> Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking - A Birwatcher walk-
through.
> One could also carry a canoe on the roof and have standing
headroom:-)
> The added coaming sure seems to add to the overall looks and this
> hull is really sound and stable. (21/2" thick along the box keel.)
>
> Interesting information in the write-up as well. With the 50 hp
motor
> one could get about 10 miles to the gallon and 25 knots when
cranked
> up to full rpm. Wonder how a 25 would do?
>
> Also - the final comment:
>
> "Interesting question: How much of the time is something like this
> actually better, handier, less vulnerable, (have a) better view
(with
> access to better views.), than something that costs thirty times as
> much?"
>
> It is pretty much along the lines of the recent discussion about a
> smaller lighter boat getting more use.
>
> Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <wturn@y...> wrote:

> Very interesting photo. Could do something like that
> with a birdwatcher type walk-through. Then I suppose
> I have a rear-cabin AF4.
>

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking - A Birwatcher walk-through.
One could also carry a canoe on the roof and have standing headroom:-)
The added coaming sure seems to add to the overall looks and this
hull is really sound and stable. (21/2" thick along the box keel.)

Interesting information in the write-up as well. With the 50 hp motor
one could get about 10 miles to the gallon and 25 knots when cranked
up to full rpm. Wonder how a 25 would do?

Also - the final comment:

"Interesting question: How much of the time is something like this
actually better, handier, less vulnerable, (have a) better view (with
access to better views.), than something that costs thirty times as
much?"

It is pretty much along the lines of the recent discussion about a
smaller lighter boat getting more use.

Cheers, Nels

Very interesting photo. Could do something like that
with a birdwatcher type walk-through. Then I suppose
I have a rear-cabin AF4.

Around here ( West coast of Florida) a bimini or cabin
is a necessity due to the uv-rays. A hard-cabin like
this would extend boating season to year-round.

Bill

--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull
> <wturn@y...> wrote:
> > I think that is the same as the one that Payson
> > advertises in maib. This looks like a good
> > candidate, should be easier to build than the
> diablo
> > and take even shallower water. I have to admit I
> have
> > a weakness for utility type boats.
> >
> > Anyone built one or the smaller versions?
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
> Hi Bill,
>
> Just noticed that there is a file in Bolger 3
> entitled "Clam Skiff"
> which has a MAIB article about the closed in
> version. Plans available
> from PCB&F for $100.
>
> Also a photo of one - which if it doesn't warm your
> cockles then I
> suggest you get them looked at!
>
> The original clam skiff was designed for Dynamite
> Payson's son to use
> and they were very pleased with it.
>
> Almost a small Windermere.
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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The hatch would seem to have a rotating latch at the top (and maybe at the
bottom) and it must lift out, or possibly drop back into the cockpit (which
seems silly).

Selway-Fisher has a stitch and glue canoe yawl plans set (I think it's
based on the small "Ethel" which Classic Boat or some other UK mag did a
building series on) and I believe has one or two slightly larger plans.

Steve Redmond's Elver is another canoe yawl, this one a free adaptation of
the concept stressing simplicity; and a cool boat.

http://www.sredmond.com/elver.htm
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

>I love canoes and canoeing, but when I observe a canoe stern on a sll
>smali boat it doesn't look that practical to me. There is a loss of
>both bouyancy and space for such things as the mizzen, the rudder and
>the mainsheet, and a motor. Nice area to get things all messed up!

The answer here is "it all depends".

>This in an area where people tend to want to congregate as well.

Well, they shouldn't. Everyone astern is death to sailing ability, but a
canoe-sterned boat (or any sharp-sterned boat) will do somewhat better than
one which drags its transom.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

>I can see why this is a great design with the stern well up above the
>water in normal trim. However I wonder why it would not be called a
>ketch instead of a yawl?

I believe the Cheap Pages has an explanation of why a canoe yawl is called
a canoe yawl.

In short, it's a "canoe [sterned] yawl [sized] boat"
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

--- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

> "The Humber yawls

Here is a Humber yawl page:

http://tinyurl.com/xxh3
http://www.holdich.demon.co.uk/boats/restore/drestore.htm

The Bolger cartoon #24 seems a modernized similar.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> --- "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> > I wonder what the idea was in
> > having the rudder post canted at
> > such an angle?

The usual reason was to shorten the keel and reduce wetted surface.

The quote from PCB on the difference between a yawl and a ketch is a
good one, and I have so thoroughly incorporated the master's point of
view that I stumble into an arguement from time to time. However, it
is not the relevent quote in this case. I offer the following from
Small Boats, page 138:

"The Humber yawls weren't called so on account of the rig; the
reference was to yawl-boat."

This is from the discussion of Quickstep, and other "Humber canoe
yawls", including Rozinante, are mentioned.

Peter

--- "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> I wonder what the idea was in
> having the rudder post canted at
> such an angle?

I also wonder why the Mona Lisa
was painted with a smile.

Good point Bruce,

It would appear that the mizzen would be most effective as a
balancing and manouvering sail in this design.

I wonder what the idea was in having the rudder post canted at such
an angle? If you look at the keel closely - it is actually a very
shallow one - with a huge skeg behind it.

Eventually the keel and the skeg became separated in later designs
and the rudder post became more upright again.

She looks fast though!

Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:
> --- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > Yes, the Ronzinante Yawl is a ketch.
>
> Difference between a yawl and a ketch???
> Perhaps LF Herreshoff calls it a yawl
> because the angle of the rudder post is
> tipped back so much, that the mizzen mast
> would be abaft if it were vertical?
>
> Here is what PCB wrote about the difference
> between a Ketch and a Yawl:
>
> "I was brought up to quote confidently that a yawl had her mizzen
> abaft the rudderpost while a ketch had hers forward of it. We
played
> games with odd consequences of this definition and argued with
people
> who'd been taught that the difference was whether the mizzen was
> forward or abaft the after end of the waterline.
> This is all arbitrary. The functional difference is that a ketch
> depends on her mizzen for a significant part of the power that
drives
> the boat, whereas in a yawl the mizzen serves as a balancing and
> maneuvering sail."

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:

> I think y'awls are more popular in the South.
>
> -D

So would a good old boy who enjoys canoeing be called a... "canoe
yawl"?:-)

I notice in the sectional drawing - that there is what appears to be
a gentleman in the forepeak sitting on a bucket, with his head jammed
up against the forehatch and smoking his pipe.

Is is this to demonstrate the self-steering capability or did LFH
have a sense of humour? Something that PCB would no doubt appreciate.

Chers, Nels

--- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

> Yes, the Ronzinante Yawl is a ketch.

Difference between a yawl and a ketch???
Perhaps LF Herreshoff calls it a yawl
because the angle of the rudder post is
tipped back so much, that the mizzen mast
would be abaft if it were vertical?

Here is what PCB wrote about the difference
between a Ketch and a Yawl:

"I was brought up to quote confidently that a yawl had her mizzen
abaft the rudderpost while a ketch had hers forward of it. We played
games with odd consequences of this definition and argued with people
who'd been taught that the difference was whether the mizzen was
forward or abaft the after end of the waterline.
This is all arbitrary. The functional difference is that a ketch
depends on her mizzen for a significant part of the power that drives
the boat, whereas in a yawl the mizzen serves as a balancing and
maneuvering sail."

I think y'awls are more popular in the South.

-D

> However I wonder why it would not be called a
> ketch instead of a yawl?

Yes, the Ronzinante Yawl is a ketch. In this case, "canoe yawl" does
not describe the rig. I think at one time, a "yawl boat" was a boat
carried by a ship, and "yawl" described its function. The "canoe
yawl" terminology is derived from that. Don't try to make sense of
it; there probably isn't any.

It's sort of like describing a heavy, low-speed power cruiser as
a "trawler." It doesn't trawl, but it's a trawler anyway.

--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

> However I wonder why it would not be called a
> ketch instead of a yawl?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <wturn@y...> wrote:

> I think that is the same as the one that Payson
> advertises in maib. This looks like a good
> candidate, should be easier to build than the diablo
> and take even shallower water. I have to admit I have
> a weakness for utility type boats.
>
> Anyone built one or the smaller versions?
>
>
> Bill
>

Hi Bill,

Just noticed that there is a file in Bolger 3 entitled "Clam Skiff"
which has a MAIB article about the closed in version. Plans available
from PCB&F for $100.

Also a photo of one - which if it doesn't warm your cockles then I
suggest you get them looked at!

The original clam skiff was designed for Dynamite Payson's son to use
and they were very pleased with it.

Almost a small Windermere.

Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> I also posted gif's of the Herreshoff
> canoe yawl Rozinante in Bolger3 files
> section. Bolger has written that this
> boat is one of his favorites.

I can see why this is a great design with the stern well up above the
water in normal trim. However I wonder why it would not be called a
ketch instead of a yawl?

>
> PCB wrote of Cartoon #24:
> "To keep the trunk light, and to
> incidentally to make it less
> obtrusive, no hatch is shown.
> The cuddy is entered through a
> two foot square opening in the
> bulkhead You slide your legs in
> first, then lower you butt to the
> sole with hands on the lip of the
> trunk. Hands and knees will work
> best to get out. The reward of
> being limber enough to do this is
> that there is a good chance that
> the cuddy will stay dry."

Another good reason for having a Micro. I don't even have to bend
over to get in or out:-)

Cheers, Nels

--- "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> Can anyone explain how the
> hatch/companionway works on this boat?

I also posted gif's of the Herreshoff
canoe yawl Rozinante in Bolger3 files
section. Bolger has written that this
boat is one of his favorites.

All three of these canoe yawls seem
to required a bit of acrobatics to
climb into the cabin/cuddy, without
a sliding hatch.

PCB wrote of Cartoon #24:
"To keep the trunk light, and to
incidentally to make it less
obtrusive, no hatch is shown.
The cuddy is entered through a
two foot square opening in the
bulkhead You slide your legs in
first, then lower you butt to the
sole with hands on the lip of the
trunk. Hands and knees will work
best to get out. The reward of
being limber enough to do this is
that there is a good chance that
the cuddy will stay dry."

I forgot to ask...

Can anyone explain how the hatch/companionway works on this boat?

Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> With all this discussion of trailering
> boats, I keep coming back to the
> beautiful cartoon #24 of "Plywood
> Canoe Yawl" in an old SBJ.
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif
>
> Water ballasted = light trailer weight.
>
> Double ended = beautiful.
>
> 'Classic' sail rigging = fun.
>
> Stitched plywood = quick and cheap to build.
>

Just for the sake of comparison I have created a file in Bolger 3
entitled "Canoe Yawl" with three illustrations of what I believe is a
small and beautiful English design.

I love canoes and canoeing, but when I observe a canoe stern on a sll
smali boat it doesn't look that practical to me. There is a loss of
both bouyancy and space for such things as the mizzen, the rudder and
the mainsheet, and a motor. Nice area to get things all messed up!

This in an area where people tend to want to congregate as well.

Also I notice here - as in several other traditional designs - that
the British don't seem to mind having a few ropes around:-)

Cheers, Nels

Believe me, I have thought about your AF4. I will
have to get rid of my current boat before I buy
another of similar size otherwise I my wife might make
me live in it....

To bad I'm not still in the Acworth area, we could
have worked out a deal on the imb bulkheads.

Bill

--- John Bell <smallboatdesigner@...>
wrote:

> You need an AF4... (hint, hint)
>
> Comes with IMB plans and a set of already made
> bulkheads...
>
>
>
>
> > There's an idea. Sort of like the campanoe
> concept
> > advertised in maib.
> >
> > I've also been considering the imb from Michalak
> or
> > perhaps the philsboat (I think that is the name)
> for
> > slow motoring and sailing. We often go out to an
> > island that is 2 or 3 miles away. Could take a
> scenic
> > route along the way to pass the hour to get there
> in
> > the imb....
> >
> > Bill
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Was this cartoon all there was or were there accompanying words? If
so what did he have to say about it?

Pete

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "robby plunkett" <robbylplunkett@h...>
wrote:

> i like this plan very much. you say it is a cartoon,do you mean it

is not a

> plan? this would work very well to met my needs for a shallow river

floater

> and ability to cross large open water lakes. it may have a hand

portage

> problem due to weight but i like the theory. maybe it could be done

> lighter material. i'm not a persay sailor,i'd cut back on sails to
> minimum,just something to push across the water and not so much to

actually

> sail. let me know if this or something like this is available.

thanks,robby

>

Hi Robby,

There are lots of designs to choose from depending on exaclty what
you plan to do and how much time and money you want to invest.

For example, you say you are not a sailer, so do you plan to use a
motor mostly or row or what? How far do you plan to travel from land
and how many people are going with you? How long and difficult are
the portages? Do you plan to overnight or just day sail? Wherabouts
are you located and what type of water and wind is the most
prevalent? For example the Florida Keys and the Alaska Panhandle
obviously call for different requirements.

It would be very helpful to have more details on your purpose for the
boat.

Cheers, Nels

>--- "robby plunkett" wrote:
>> i like this plan very much.
>> you say it is a cartoon,
>
>The now defunct magazine, _Small Boat
>Journal_, used to have a feature where
>readers would submit a 'boat wish list'
>and Phil Bolger would work up a concept
>study of a proposed boat design to meet
>the wish list. These were called
>"Cartoons" and Plywood Canoe Yawl was
>Number 24 from Vol. #48, April/May 1986.

Birdwatcher came from this. So did the (original) box-proa.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

> this would work very well to met my needs for a
> shallow river floater and ability to cross large open water lakes.

I don't mean to be negative about something that has taken your
fancy, but, to me, this yawl seems a very unlikely choice for a
shallow river boat. In fact, aside from being beautiful, it doesn't
have any virtues as anything but a sail boat.

For your scenario, it has too much draft, too much weight, no
auxillary power, will be too hard to row. You need a boat derived
from a rowing or paddling boat, not from a heavy cruising yawl. There
should be plenty of Bolger designs to consider. Since you latched
onto this once due to its good looks, I'll limit myself to the pretty
ones.

The first to come to mind is Wisp, 20' long, double-ended, cold-
molded with a simple sloop rig, and meant to be rowed. There is the
fiberglass Dovekie, and the similar, strip-built boat the name of
which I forget (Pico?). The Chebacco boat would be a similar amount
of work to build, has shallower draft, more useable space, etc.

Peter

--- "robby plunkett" wrote:

> i like this plan very much.
> you say it is a cartoon,

The now defunct magazine, _Small Boat
Journal_, used to have a feature where
readers would submit a 'boat wish list'
and Phil Bolger would work up a concept
study of a proposed boat design to meet
the wish list. These were called
"Cartoons" and Plywood Canoe Yawl was
Number 24 from Vol. #48, April/May 1986.

Many were later developed into finished
designs, but this one? I don't know.

It sure is a pretty boat. Is there another
PB&F boat which is similar? To me, it seems
similar to L.F. Herreshoff's canoe yawl
Rozinante, though simpler, smaller, safer
and trailerable.

I think that is the same as the one that Payson
advertises in maib. This looks like a good
candidate, should be easier to build than the diablo
and take even shallower water. I have to admit I have
a weakness for utility type boats.

Anyone built one or the smaller versions?

Bill

--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wturn" <wturn@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > So, perhaps the qt is not the way to go.... My
> total load would
> be
> > less than 450lb for all of us (kids are 2 and 5).
> Diablo would be
> > able to handle it but looks more difficult to
> build to me.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> Hi Bill,
>
> Have you seen this? I really think it would work.
>
>http://www.instantboats.com/skiff18.htm
>
> There have been a few built with cuddies on them as
> well. Have a
> photo of one in Finland here somewhere.
>
> Don't forget the kids will grow really quickly.
>
> Cheers Nels
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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i like this plan very much. you say it is a cartoon,do you mean it is not a
plan? this would work very well to met my needs for a shallow river floater
and ability to cross large open water lakes. it may have a hand portage
problem due to weight but i like the theory. maybe it could be done in
lighter material. i'm not a persay sailor,i'd cut back on sails to
minimum,just something to push across the water and not so much to actually
sail. let me know if this or something like this is available. thanks,robby

>From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Plywood Canoe Yawl (trailing)
>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:24:38 -0000
>
>With all this discussion of trailering
>boats, I keep coming back to the
>beautiful cartoon #24 of "Plywood
>Canoe Yawl" in an old SBJ.
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif
>
>Water ballasted = light trailer weight.
>
>Double ended = beautiful.
>
>'Classic' sail rigging = fun.
>
>Stitched plywood = quick and cheap to build.
>
>While only a cartoon, PCB could
>be probably enticed to finish it.
>
>And the cartoon is complete enough
>that it could be built from the drawings
>using scaled dimensions and lofting anyway.
>
>The hangup I keep bumping against is that
>I don't understand the nature of the
>main sheet horse/traveller, marked in
>the gif image with a cloud and question
>mark.
>
>I take it that the thin line is either
>made of metal, or is 'incomplete' in the
>cartoon and needs further design by PCB.
>
>I would welcome ideas of how best to detail
>and build this traveller/horse.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Shop online for kids� toys by age group, price range, and toy category at
MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you!http://shopping.msn.com

>Oh!
>
>I enlarged a xerox of the sections
>to take-off 'offset' measurements.
>[I am thinking of making a model.]

Ah.

This hull looks like it could be easily done plyboats-style, Chine
Hulls-style, whatever the software might be called.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

>Part of what hangs me up when trying to detail
>this traveler, is that with the narrow deck, the
>verticals for the traveler would interfere with
>the slide of a ring on pipe. The ring would have
>to be a "C", or the pipe would have to be slotted.

Look in the upper left corner. There's a guy with oars. In "front" of him
(actually astern since this is the stern of the boat) is an angular dark
line. That's the horse. It extends over the gunwales to give a decent sheet
lead for controlling the gaffer's boom. The angular ends would seem to act
as a stop.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________

You need an AF4... (hint, hint)

Comes with IMB plans and a set of already made bulkheads...

> There's an idea. Sort of like the campanoe concept
> advertised in maib.
>
> I've also been considering the imb from Michalak or
> perhaps the philsboat (I think that is the name) for
> slow motoring and sailing. We often go out to an
> island that is 2 or 3 miles away. Could take a scenic
> route along the way to pass the hour to get there in
> the imb....
>
> Bill

http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif

Oh!

I enlarged a xerox of the sections
to take-off 'offset' measurements.
[I am thinking of making a model.]

Looking closer I see what I missed.

Looking at the stern view, [with the guy
in the rowing position], I now notice that
the traveler is drawn on the Cartoon
by PCB.

What confused me was that I had imagined
the 'verticals' being vertical. But
rather, they are angled out at an angle
of about 60 degrees from vertical.

Simple and elegant, why am I surprised?

I sent you a cartoon (can't talk without a pencil).

Yes, the traveler is to reduce the fuss during tacking, but if you're
single-handing you'll never have enough hands (tiller, self, sheet).

We're using modern metalurgy and plywoods to reduce the weight and the size
of the crew. It's a lot more expeditious if you travel alone.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>

> --- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > > How did the old salts used to do it?
> >
> > I'm sure the old salts of the Humber Yawl set used purpose-cast
> > bronze hardware, but that's not what you had in mind, is it?
> >...traveler in the Catboat Bulletin ...
>
> I guess I have in mind the sailboat rigging
> that 'working class' sailer's would have
> used for hundreds+ of years prior to us
> recreational sailors dominating things in
> the last century.
>
> The reason for the traveler on PCB's cartoon
> of _Plywood Canoe Yawl_, seems to be that the
> pointy stern doesn't give enough width of deck
> to give a wide enough sheeting angle. Catboats
> with more square sterns wouldn't have this
> same problem.
>
> Part of what hangs me up when trying to detail
> this traveler, is that with the narrow deck, the
> verticals for the traveler would interfere with
> the slide of a ring on pipe. The ring would have
> to be a "C", or the pipe would have to be slotted.
>
> Just clipping a clip, or tying a knot to a pipe
> horse across the stern deck, would eliminate the
> need for a traveler sliding on a track or pipe.
>
> Isn't the purpose of the sliding of the traveler
> simply speed and convenience? With practice and
> skill the clipping of the clip or tying of the knot
> could occur quickly, as the boat was coming
> around. The water ballast would provide momentum
> to help against getting stuck in stays while you
> fumbled with this.
>
>

--- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

> > How did the old salts used to do it?
>
> I'm sure the old salts of the Humber Yawl set used purpose-cast
> bronze hardware, but that's not what you had in mind, is it?
>...traveler in the Catboat Bulletin ...

I guess I have in mind the sailboat rigging
that 'working class' sailer's would have
used for hundreds+ of years prior to us
recreational sailors dominating things in
the last century.

The reason for the traveler on PCB's cartoon
of _Plywood Canoe Yawl_, seems to be that the
pointy stern doesn't give enough width of deck
to give a wide enough sheeting angle. Catboats
with more square sterns wouldn't have this
same problem.

Part of what hangs me up when trying to detail
this traveler, is that with the narrow deck, the
verticals for the traveler would interfere with
the slide of a ring on pipe. The ring would have
to be a "C", or the pipe would have to be slotted.

Just clipping a clip, or tying a knot to a pipe
horse across the stern deck, would eliminate the
need for a traveler sliding on a track or pipe.

Isn't the purpose of the sliding of the traveler
simply speed and convenience? With practice and
skill the clipping of the clip or tying of the knot
could occur quickly, as the boat was coming
around. The water ballast would provide momentum
to help against getting stuck in stays while you
fumbled with this.

I don't remember. I read a lot of books on racing back when the Sunfish
fleet in Daytona Beach went out every weekend. I got a chance to try many
variations.

I was too old and too fat to compete without a full bag of tricks (and that
was thirty years ago). Those college freshmen on athletic scholarships
weighed 140 lbs and had the proverbial abs of steel. A Sunfish only goes
well if the mast is kept vertical (roll and pitch). On the reaching legs
they'd get up on a plane 20' before I did and I'd fall back off some 20'
before they did. I miss it.

I never got as desperate as the fellow that strapped a trolling motor to the
bottom of his dagger board and did really well on the windward legs in light
air.

If you want to learn to sail well, get out and race dinghys. We used it as
our teaching method with great success. (If the fleet's leaving him behind,
the student doesn't need to be told he could be doing something better.)

The Sunfish is about as simple as it gets. The sheet horse was a plastic
coated steel cable across the transom with enough slack to go above the
tiller. In strong winds, secure the sheet with a bowline so it can go to
the leeward corner. In light air, use the center loop in the steel cable as
the designer intended.

Many traditional working boats had a steel rod horse for the jib sheet. A
simple ring was the traveler. Limit travel with a line to windward which
goes slack when you tack. Once you've filled away after coming about you
can lead it to the new windward side and point higher. I'm still marveling
at the fellow who came out to race a few times and did well despite having
only one arm. (He did have strong teeth and nimble toes.)

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>

> --- "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > I'd guess the top to be a tube (or patent track)
> > for the block to travel
> > with welded tubing supports.
>
> I have a bias against using a new-fangled
> track, when a simpler way could work.
>
> Though, I have just spent a few minutes trying
> to detail a 'low tech' solution for a track
> without success.
>
> How did the old salts used to do it?
>
> Then, it occured to me that simply tying
> a knot [two half hitches?] where you want it
> on the track, or using a snap hook, would work.
> The purpose of this boat is not to win races.
>
> > sail shape. (but you knew that)
> Well, I didn't, but it makes
> sense. Where did you learn this?

> How did the old salts used to do it?

I'm sure the old salts of the Humber Yawl set used purpose-cast
bronze hardware, but that's not what you had in mind, is it?

There was a diagram of a supposed traditional way of making a
traveler in the Catboat Bulletin years ago. As I remember, it is
basically a galvanized pipe held between a couple of wood uprights. A
gavanized ring attached to the sheet block rides on the pipe.
Catboats being what they are, I don't suppose a working boat had any
need for refinements to limit the travel.

Peter

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:

>
> So, perhaps the qt is not the way to go.... My total load would

> less than 450lb for all of us (kids are 2 and 5). Diablo would be
> able to handle it but looks more difficult to build to me.
>
> Bill
>
>

Hi Bill,

Have you seen this? I really think it would work.

http://www.instantboats.com/skiff18.htm

There have been a few built with cuddies on them as well. Have a
photo of one in Finland here somewhere.

Don't forget the kids will grow really quickly.

Cheers Nels

So, perhaps the qt is not the way to go.... My total load would be
less than 450lb for all of us (kids are 2 and 5). Diablo would be
able to handle it but looks more difficult to build to me.

Bill

> I'm building a QT Skiff (power). It will *not* fit 2 adults and 2

kids.

> It's a small, narrow boat. It would wallow, and perhaps swamp in

2 ft

> waves, with such a load.
>
>
> Chris Crandall crandall@u... (785) 864-4131
> Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS

66045

> I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine

hypothesis.

There's an idea. Sort of like the campanoe concept
advertised in maib.

I've also been considering the imb from Michalak or
perhaps the philsboat (I think that is the name) for
slow motoring and sailing. We often go out to an
island that is 2 or 3 miles away. Could take a scenic
route along the way to pass the hour to get there in
the imb....

Bill

--- Roger Derby <derbyrm@...> wrote:

> Build two and "raft."
>
> Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@...>
> >
> > I'm building a QT Skiff (power). It will *not* fit
> 2 adults and 2 kids.
> > It's a small, narrow boat. It would wallow, and
> perhaps swamp in 2 ft
> > waves, with such a load.
>
>
>
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--- "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:

> I'd guess the top to be a tube (or patent track)
> for the block to travel
> with welded tubing supports.

I have a bias against using a new-fangled
track, when a simpler way could work.

Though, I have just spent a few minutes trying
to detail a 'low tech' solution for a track
without success.

How did the old salts used to do it?

Then, it occured to me that simply tying
a knot [two half hitches?] where you want it
on the track, or using a snap hook, would work.
The purpose of this boat is not to win races.

> sail shape. (but you knew that)

Well, I didn't, but it makes
sense. Where did you learn this?

--- "Gavin Atkin" wrote:

> That /is/ cute.

I agree. So many of the box boats,
and nearly all of the Michalak boats
are ugly. At times, Bolger has a knack
for beauty = simplicity = elegance.

Notice the auxilary oar power, no stinkin'

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> --- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
>
> > I take it to be a metal traveler.
>

Me too!

It seems to me that this is a complication that occurs with any canoe
yawl. You have the tiller, mainsheet, and mizzen all vying for the
same small area of space at the pointy stern.

Nels

> Viewed from the side, it has no
> support to resist it from rotating
> in the forward direction. Though,
> I suppose it could be given a 'shoe'
> with welded metal, that is bolted
> to the deck.

I agree that for such a high traveler, a diagonal (as seen from the
side) strut would probably be a good idea, if not actually required.

Peter

I'd guess the top to be a tube (or patent track) for the block to travel
with welded tubing supports.

Sheeting the boom in tighter than about fifteen degrees off the boat's
centerline is counter-productive and being able to haul down on the boom
when close hauled in high winds will flatten the sail. In light winds the
sheet block can be brought inboard to allow the boom to rise for a fuller
sail shape. (but you knew that)

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>

> With all this discussion of trailering
> boats, I keep coming back to the
> beautiful cartoon #24 of "Plywood
> Canoe Yawl" in an old SBJ.
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif
>
<snip>.
>
> The hangup I keep bumping against is that
> I don't understand the nature of the
> main sheet horse/traveller, marked in
> the gif image with a cloud and question
> mark.
>
> I take it that the thin line is either
> made of metal, or is 'incomplete' in the
> cartoon and needs further design by PCB.
>
> I would welcome ideas of how best to detail
> and build this traveller/horse.

Build two and "raft."

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@...>
>
> I'm building a QT Skiff (power). It will *not* fit 2 adults and 2 kids.
> It's a small, narrow boat. It would wallow, and perhaps swamp in 2 ft
> waves, with such a load.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> With all this discussion of trailering
> boats, I keep coming back to the
> beautiful cartoon #24 of "Plywood
> Canoe Yawl" in an old SBJ.
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif

That /is/ cute. And what a nice use of water ballast.

Gavin

--- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

> I take it to be a metal traveler.

Viewed from the side, it has no
support to resist it from rotating
in the forward direction. Though,
I suppose it could be given a 'shoe'
with welded metal, that is bolted
to the deck.

The rig seems to most closely match
Rig 74 in 103 Sailing Rigs, but in
neither the book, or the SBJ article
does he mention the traveler. Rig
74 in the book only shows one view
of the boat, but does seem to have
a horse or a traveler.

> I take it that the thin line is either
> made of metal, or is 'incomplete' in the
> cartoon and needs further design by PCB.

I take it to be a metal traveler. It is meant to get the sheet block
above the tiller. I'm not sure why PCB thinks the main should be
sheeted as far to leeward as the traveler implies. For windward work,
and block on the centerline is usually pretty good. He may mean it
only for offwind work, but the the control lines add a lot of clutter.

As for details, I think perhaps black-painted wrought iron, like the
railing of a New Orleans Balcony.

Peter (current in the middle of a James Lee Burke novel)

With all this discussion of trailering
boats, I keep coming back to the
beautiful cartoon #24 of "Plywood
Canoe Yawl" in an old SBJ.

http://www.hallman.org/bolger/pcy.gif

Water ballasted = light trailer weight.

Double ended = beautiful.

'Classic' sail rigging = fun.

Stitched plywood = quick and cheap to build.

While only a cartoon, PCB could
be probably enticed to finish it.

And the cartoon is complete enough
that it could be built from the drawings
using scaled dimensions and lofting anyway.

The hangup I keep bumping against is that
I don't understand the nature of the
main sheet horse/traveller, marked in
the gif image with a cloud and question
mark.

I take it that the thin line is either
made of metal, or is 'incomplete' in the
cartoon and needs further design by PCB.

I would welcome ideas of how best to detail
and build this traveller/horse.

From: Bill Turnbull <wturn@...>
I have a 2500lb powerboat. I can say that there are
times when I would like to take it out but the hassle
of launching at the ramp then coming back and cleaning
it and flushing the engine (saltwater around here)
keeps me from doing so. I think I'm going to downsize
this spring to something like diablo or Michalak QT
skiff because I can launch them off of the causeway
that we have here with no ramp.

A Kevlar canoe that would fit my whole family (2
adults, 2 kids) and a small outboard would be nice.

I'm building a QT Skiff (power). It will *not* fit 2 adults and 2 kids.
It's a small, narrow boat. It would wallow, and perhaps swamp in 2 ft
waves, with such a load.

Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> I think the 30 footer is just too tiny with only an 8 foot beam

and

> 41/2 foot draft. I would need the 37 footer.
>
> She would look good in the canals of Copenhagen - I must admit.

And

> you have your choice of building it either of wood OR plywood:-)
>
> And she will carry a real skiff - not one of those inflatables!
>
> Cheers Nels

Nels,
I'd go with MDO plywood,double laminate with stagered overlaps
for a seamless monocoque hull which will be clean inside and out,and
either be tempted by a Juno or, better yet,his Grizzely Bear design
which offers much more storage room as it is not a double ender.
However,I do have a weakness for double-enders and can never get
enough oogling of their rear ends :-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,who knows why he is up at this hour but wonders what
Nels is doing out in the middle of the frozen prairees at this early
hour...............

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:

> George has a wonderful, rambling, irreverent, slightly insane

writing

> style.

Have to love it Bruce!

I think the 30 footer is just too tiny with only an 8 foot beam and
41/2 foot draft. I would need the 37 footer.

She would look good in the canals of Copenhagen - I must admit. And
you have your choice of building it either of wood OR plywood:-)

And she will carry a real skiff - not one of those inflatables!

Cheers Nels

I guess I have to jump in here...Having had a lot of experience
towing heavy loads (i.e. 5000lbs+), I have to say, that aside from
hooking the trailer up, it is not that big a deal...It totally
depends on your towing rig, towing experience, and willingness to go.

Those of you in this group thinking about an I60 better get used to
owning a towing vehicle capable of 12000 lbs. with all of the
attendant gear. This includes electronic brake controllers, weight
distributing hitches or goosenecks, and so on. Once you have all the
gear, towing ain't that bad.

Right now I am using an old fuel injected Blazer that can tow around
7000lbs, so 5000 is no sweat. takes me around a minute to hook up,
and with the 4WD, I don't worry about the ramps.

It is just a matter of scale and experience.

If you can tow a couple of hundred pound WIDE hobie cat at turnpike
speed, you can tow just about anything. Just take it easy and use
good sense.

The 1000 lb limit is only because you are using a ford taurus or
Honda to try and tow. Front wheel drive vehicles can't tow as much
weight as rear wheel drive.

I guess this makes sense as most people these days have front wheel
drive and a smug abhorence for the dreaded SUV. Trucks are useful
critters if you have a legitimate use for them....

There are a lot of tips for heavy weight towing on a lot of sites.
Very valuable sites are found in the equine or horse world. A two
horse trailer has to be capable of hauling around 3000 lbs of horses
plus the weight of gear and trailer.

Horse people don't think twice about taking off for a weekend with
their friends...I can't imagine why boat people should be put off by
a few extra pounds on a boat

Bruce

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> I believe that the heavier a boat is the more planning and
> forethought it entails when considering taking it out for the day.
>
> In my own experience, a 14 foot solo canoe I have, gets used more
> often than all the other boats I have owned. It went on the roof of
> the car even before the ice was all out and stayed there for much
of
> the summer except when it was in the water. It is yellow kevlar
> composite and weighs about 35 pounds. (Makes the car easy to find
in
> a parking lot as well:-)
>
> I would carry paddles and life jackets and a day pack in the trunk
> and any time it seemed "right" I could stop at almost any bit of
> water and within 15 minutes would be out paddling. (Biggest
challenge
> is where to leave the vehicle.)
>
> Here is what the Master has to say about trailer boats.
>
> "Massive trailers, powerful tow cars and steep launching ramps are
> more satisfying in imagination than reality. The amount of use a
> trailer boat yields is in inverse proportion to the captial tied
up,
> and the overambitious boat nags at her owners when they're tired of
> the mental and physical effort her use demands"
>
> BWAOM Page 247
>
> Of course some are up to the challenge more than others:-) Would I -

> on the spur of the moment - take a 2500 pound boat out to the lake
> and bring it back again just to go sailing for an hour or two? Not
> very often!
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2003, at 1:30 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
> >
> > >>> any boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a
> > >>> launch-for-every-sail proposition.
> > >
> > >> I think most power boaters will find your opinion very
> > >> conservative.
> > >
> > > I agree both that my opinions are conservative, and that my
> opinion
> > > was based on sailboat thinking.
> >
> > You have me wondering! You are not the first to express
> > the ~1000LB tow limit. I have had the same response on
> > other groups, typically but not always sail boaters. What
> > happens when a sail boat gets heavier than 1000LBS?
> > Draft, rigging complexity, or what? Or do sail boaters
> > just prefer smaller tow vehicles than we power boaters?
> > Do slimey salt water boat ramps have anything to do with
> > it?
> >
> > hal

Nels wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
> > George Buehler made a point somewhere that it was easier to
> > make a boat a bit longer than to try to squeeze more into a
> > given length.
>
> I guess the point you are trying to make is that Phil Bolger doesn't
> always take the easy route?

I found the original quote:

> You might think that 30' doesn't sound very small. But, EMILY is a
> small 30, if that makes sense. Her length is stretched out to cover
> a narrow beam and she has fine ends. This makes her hull very easy
> to wrap material around, and allows her to slip through the water
> very easily. The result is a boat that will be easier and cheaper to

build

> than many boats 5 to 8 foot shorter, but will sail better because she's
> longer, and will be more comfortable because the interior is stretched
> out. This of course means she doesn't have the volume you'd expect in
> most 30 footers which is why I suggest her for a young person or couple

Seehttp://www.georgebuehler.com/Emily.htmlfor the full article.

George has a wonderful, rambling, irreverent, slightly insane writing
style.

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
I find the vertical sides, high freeboard and snub
> nose of many of Bolger's designs to be unnattractive. >

Check out the Micro 8 - the last one on the page.
Phil still has a ways to go yet:-)

There is actually a guy debating between it and a Paradox!b

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:

> George Buehler made a point somewhere that it was easier to
> make a boat a bit longer than to try to squeeze more into a
> given length.

I guess the point you are trying to make is that Phil Bolger doesn't
always take the easy route?

Personally I like the idea of getting the maximum interior space for
the given investment because I like to feel comfortable rather than
cramped. And I also find the cabins on most of his designs to be far
more open and ventilated and less sweaty than most production boats
of equal, or even larger size. Cabins also offer protection from the
sun as well as extending the season when one can be comfortable.

Looks of course are in the eye of the beholder - and car, clothes and
yacht advertising agencies spend millions brainwashing people into
how things "should look" - whether it really makes any common sense
or not. Of course it must work, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Somehow that doesn't seem to have much of an effect on me, whether I
am in my Chevy van or my Micro. The view from where I sit is quite
pleasant:-)

Cheers, Nels

David Ryan wrote:

> Perhaps I'm readying too much into Mr. Fountains's post, but I
> believe the Bolger box he's maligning as "obsession with maximising
> (sic) accomodation (sic) for a given waterline" to be my friend Bob
> Wise's Loose Moose II.

[an aside - the use of "z" in "maximize" is an americanism, and
plenty of people still prefer the softer "s" of "maximise"]

Sometimes I get a bit bored and like to stir the pot a little. Sorry
if anyone took offense.

Actually, I wasn't thinking specifically of LM, although that boat
certainly is boxy. I find the vertical sides, high freeboard and snub
nose of many of Bolger's designs to be unnattractive. Especially
when you are sacrificing cockpit or deck space for the sake of
some sweaty little cabin which you will hardly use. I think the
paradox (not a PCB design) takes this to the ultimate extreme
- that is a floating coffin, not a boat.

George Buehler made a point somewhere that it was easier to
make a boat a bit longer than to try to squeeze more into a
given length. To this I would add that the slightly longer, leaner
boat would sail better and appear more attractive to most
people for the cost of a few sheets of ply.

On the other hand, I love Chebacco and Black Skimmer, and
I think the Light Scooner would have to be one of the sexiest
little boats ever. These are boats which have less focus on
accomodations.

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia

On Dec 1, 2003, at 4:51 PM, Nels wrote:

> Of course some are up to the challenge more than others:-) Would I -
> on the spur of the moment - take a 2500 pound boat out to the lake
> and bring it back again just to go sailing for an hour or two? Not
> very often!

When the kids were home we would go skiing for an hour or two.
But now that they are gone, no.

hal

I have a 2500lb powerboat. I can say that there are
times when I would like to take it out but the hassle
of launching at the ramp then coming back and cleaning
it and flushing the engine (saltwater around here)
keeps me from doing so. I think I'm going to downsize
this spring to something like diablo or Michalak QT
skiff because I can launch them off of the causeway
that we have here with no ramp.

A Kevlar canoe that would fit my whole family (2
adults, 2 kids) and a small outboard would be nice.
Or perhaps a Gheenoe......

Anyway, trailering is ok if you are going for the
whole day but for just an hour or two, it is not worth
the effort. Maybe I'm just lazy...

Bill

> Here is what the Master has to say about trailer
> boats.
>
> "Massive trailers, powerful tow cars and steep
> launching ramps are
> more satisfying in imagination than reality. The
> amount of use a
> trailer boat yields is in inverse proportion to the
> captial tied up,
> and the overambitious boat nags at her owners when
> they're tired of
> the mental and physical effort her use demands"
>
> BWAOM Page 247
>
> Of course some are up to the challenge more than
> others:-) Would I -
> on the spur of the moment - take a 2500 pound boat
> out to the lake
> and bring it back again just to go sailing for an
> hour or two? Not
> very often!
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2003, at 1:30 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
> >
> > >>> any boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a
> > >>> launch-for-every-sail proposition.
> > >
> > >> I think most power boaters will find your
> opinion very
> > >> conservative.
> > >
> > > I agree both that my opinions are conservative,
> and that my
> opinion
> > > was based on sailboat thinking.
> >
> > You have me wondering! You are not the first to
> express
> > the ~1000LB tow limit. I have had the same
> response on
> > other groups, typically but not always sail
> boaters. What
> > happens when a sail boat gets heavier than
> 1000LBS?
> > Draft, rigging complexity, or what? Or do sail
> boaters
> > just prefer smaller tow vehicles than we power
> boaters?
> > Do slimey salt water boat ramps have anything to
> do with
> > it?
> >
> > hal
>
>
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I believe that the heavier a boat is the more planning and
forethought it entails when considering taking it out for the day.

In my own experience, a 14 foot solo canoe I have, gets used more
often than all the other boats I have owned. It went on the roof of
the car even before the ice was all out and stayed there for much of
the summer except when it was in the water. It is yellow kevlar
composite and weighs about 35 pounds. (Makes the car easy to find in
a parking lot as well:-)

I would carry paddles and life jackets and a day pack in the trunk
and any time it seemed "right" I could stop at almost any bit of
water and within 15 minutes would be out paddling. (Biggest challenge
is where to leave the vehicle.)

Here is what the Master has to say about trailer boats.

"Massive trailers, powerful tow cars and steep launching ramps are
more satisfying in imagination than reality. The amount of use a
trailer boat yields is in inverse proportion to the captial tied up,
and the overambitious boat nags at her owners when they're tired of
the mental and physical effort her use demands"

BWAOM Page 247

Of course some are up to the challenge more than others:-) Would I -
on the spur of the moment - take a 2500 pound boat out to the lake
and bring it back again just to go sailing for an hour or two? Not
very often!

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
>
> On Dec 1, 2003, at 1:30 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
>
> >>> any boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a
> >>> launch-for-every-sail proposition.
> >
> >> I think most power boaters will find your opinion very
> >> conservative.
> >
> > I agree both that my opinions are conservative, and that my
opinion
> > was based on sailboat thinking.
>
> You have me wondering! You are not the first to express
> the ~1000LB tow limit. I have had the same response on
> other groups, typically but not always sail boaters. What
> happens when a sail boat gets heavier than 1000LBS?
> Draft, rigging complexity, or what? Or do sail boaters
> just prefer smaller tow vehicles than we power boaters?
> Do slimey salt water boat ramps have anything to do with
> it?
>
> hal

> What
> happens when a sail boat gets heavier than 1000LBS?

The mast gets too tall. It's not really the weight. It's the fact
that the center of gravity gets out of reach overhead, complicated by
the stays that have to be dealt with somehow.

As an illustration, when stepping the mast of my former boat, a
Rhodes Mariner, the CoG of the mast was behind the transom when the
butt of the mast was at the maststep. You need a fulcrum (typically a
person) at the transom to hold the mast up and a person at the
maststep to pull the butt down. It's not really hard, but it's
annoying beyond what most of us want to put up with in a recreational
pursuit.

Thus all of the unstayed masts in pivoting tabernacles in Bolger
boats.

Peter

On Dec 1, 2003, at 1:30 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:

>>> any boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a
>>> launch-for-every-sail proposition.
>
>> I think most power boaters will find your opinion very
>> conservative.
>
> I agree both that my opinions are conservative, and that my opinion
> was based on sailboat thinking.

You have me wondering! You are not the first to express
the ~1000LB tow limit. I have had the same response on
other groups, typically but not always sail boaters. What
happens when a sail boat gets heavier than 1000LBS?
Draft, rigging complexity, or what? Or do sail boaters
just prefer smaller tow vehicles than we power boaters?
Do slimey salt water boat ramps have anything to do with
it?

hal

--- "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:

> You'll know everything there is
> to know about her, and how to fix her
> when she needs fixin'!

Put another way: simple materials,
simple design, low stress elements,
low tech, reliability and repairable
in remote areas.

Heck, most of the Bolger sailboats
we fawn over have no wire rigging.

That is a common theme in Phil Bolger
boat designs.

Bruce, I'd say that both of these are true for homebuilders, but another
reason, at least for someone building a boat large enough to live on, or do
off shore cruising, is the intimate relationship you have with your boat.
You'll know everything there is to know about her, and how to fix her when
she needs fixin'! That's a big plus IMO.

FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hallman [mailto:bruce@...]

For most people, the only reason to build a
boat is for the joy of building a boat!

Another potential reason, can be that you
need/want to own a *truly* unique boat . . .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Probably not, I wonder what percentage
> of the PB&F plans sold actually get
> completed into a finished boat.
> My guess is no more than 25%.

Like many of you (I suspect) I buy many more plans than I ever around
to building. The funny thing about Bolger's plans is that I've never
bought one without building the boat immediately afterwards. That's
three so far and each one has given me a lot of joy. I wonder what
number 4 will be? Gloucester Gull maybe? . . .

Bill

> > any boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a
> > launch-for-every-sail proposition.

> I think most power boaters will find your opinion very
> conservative.

I agree both that my opinions are conservative, and that my opinion
was based on sailboat thinking.

Peter

On Dec 1, 2003, at 12:11 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:

> I own a Capri 22 wing keel which weighs a long ton and is nominally
> trailerable. It is not trailerable on a daysail basis unless you have
> a yacht club dry storage and hoist available to you. I think that any
> boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a launch-for-every-sail proposition.

I think most power boaters will find your opinion very
conservative. I have a 2500LB boat which is not kept in
the water. Launching is just not a big deal. On the lakes
I use, my boat is not particularly large. IMHO draft
is more important than weight when it comes to launch-ability.

Having said that, a tow vehicle appropriate for the weight of
your boat is important.

hal, who is anxiously waiting the first launch next year.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

> > Unfortunately my contact is looking for one he can
> > trailer which also narrows down the choices.
>>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&rd=1&category=26433&item=2446069418

Sorry Peter, I am getting into this deeper than intended. The
prospect lives in Ontario and prefers one near or in that area.

>

I think that any

> boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a launch-for-every-sail

proposition.

I would agree that is about the upper limit - but preferably half
that.

My projected usage is for one that can be trailered and lived in for
a reasonable length of time, (Two to four months.) with a proper tow
vehicle to pull it.

Full time living aboard a boat is not all that practical in colder
climates. There are several challenges that come to mind such as
power and sewage and water. Parking and having a building shop.

For me an ideal "liveaboard" is an older mobile home on it's own lot
(With attached heated shop.) - near the water - and have a trailer
sailer and van parked in the driveway.

I have met three of the four requirements so far. I'm not near any
water:-(

Nels (From along the shores of the Moose Jaw River which is an empty
frozen scar on the prairie.)

As a building architect, I was once called an artichoke. It was said
face to face in a jocular manner, perhaps with a different feeling
when expressed behind my back. Maybe I deserved it? Maybe a
builder/designer with a chip on his shoulder? But the term does have
an edge to it.
DonB

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dickb_bolger" <burnharch@h...> wrote:
> In an earlier post, someone had written "artichoke" as an
alternative
> to "architect" -- sort of a self-denigrating description--not
> uncommon among those who labor 5 years at a university, 3 years in
> practice and then must squeeze through horendous exams. Just
> repeated it, keeping it up. Much like many such word twists that
> architects play with: "I always wanted to be an arch-e-teck, and
now
> I are one.", etc., etc.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > OK, I've got to ask. What is the sense of the word artichoke?

> Unfortunately my contact is looking for one he can
> trailer which also narrows down the choices.

There is an Ericson 25 on eBay at the moment. Current bid is $800,
and it will sell for less than $2500, I'm sure. The listing doesn't
say if it is the centerboard (i.e. somewhat trailerable) version.
It's in Oregon.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&rd=1&category=26433&item=2446069418

I own a Capri 22 wing keel which weighs a long ton and is nominally
trailerable. It is not trailerable on a daysail basis unless you have
a yacht club dry storage and hoist available to you. I think that any
boat over 1000lbs is marginal for a launch-for-every-sail proposition.

Peter

But if you live aboard, lving on a boat is the greatest deal around, rent/mortgage wise. Personally, I don't believe in unoccupied housing including boats, nor private ownership of land/water, nor non-nomadic existense, but thats a book in itself!
ken

Unfortunately my contact is looking for one he can trailer which also
narrows down the choices. Full keeled boats like the one mentioned
can rapidly become more work and expense than they are worth, in
these days of ever increasing moorage and marina fees. So by the
third winter or so of paying these fees and not having used the boat
much, I can see an owner wondering if it is worth the hassle.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:

> --- "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> Fair enough. Though around here,
> plenty of people just get tired
> of their 'old boat' and want to
> dump it. Poke around the marinas,
> ask the harbor master which boats
> are not paying rent on their storage.
> A friend of mine even got one for
> free this way.

Yes I can see where an old boat can become a liability, sorta of like
old cars and people;-)

Unfortunately my contact is looking for one he can trailer which also
narrows down the choices. Full keeled boats like the one mentioned
can rapidly become more work and expense than they are worth, in
these days of ever increasing moorage and marina fees. So by the
third winter or so of paying these fees and not having used the boat
much, I can see an owner wondering if it is worth the hassle.

I expect even less than 25% of all wood-working plans are ever
utilized - probably more like 5%. But they are a cheap form of
intertainment for the creative spirit - if not the practical mind.

"There has always been great satisfaction - a justified feeling of
accomplishment - related to making things with one's own hands. In
this age of specialization I believe boatbuilding can offer even more
satisfaction, as well as relaxation and a challenge to individual
ability and ingenuity. Few things involve the many skills required in
building a boat, each essential for its successful completion.
Possibly nothing else is as rewarding. Further, nicely fashioned,
well-built boats are growing more and more expensive. To build your
own may well be a practical solution, as well as more rewarding.
Surely the joys of being afloat are manifold, and those experienced
aboard a boat you have built with your own hands are
immeasurable." . . . John Atkin

--- "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> Perhaps in your area of the world -
> but certainly not around here. I
> have never seen a 30 foot sailboat
> for sale at that price.

Fair enough. Though around here,
plenty of people just get tired
of their 'old boat' and want to
dump it. Poke around the marinas,
ask the harbor master which boats
are not paying rent on their storage.
A friend of mine even got one for
free this way.

For sale now in Berkeley, a 1965
24 foot sailboat with outboard motor
for $1,800. Deals like this come up
constantly. Offer him $1,000 and see.

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/for/20127515.html

> Perhaps I am in the minority?

Probably not, I wonder what percentage
of the PB&F plans sold actually get
completed into a finished boat.
My guess is no more than 25%.

I might be in a minority, as I personally
like building boats more than using boats.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> $3 or 4K will buy a serviceable, though
> neglected, 30 foot used boat!

Perhaps in your area of the world - but certainly not around here. I
have never seen a 30 foot sailboat for sale at that price.

I know some who is interested b- but he only has $ Canuck:-)

>
> For most people, the only reason to build a
> boat is for the joy of building a boat!

That is a pretty broad generalization. My main reason is to spend a
good portion of my leisure time on the water, in the best all around
boat I can afford. For me the most perfect place to be is where wind,
water, sky and land all meet. The best view of that for me is from a
boat:-)

Perhaps I am in the minority?

Cheers, Nels

--- Nels wrote:

> However the reality...is that
> I don't have 20K to spend on a
> 15 foot overnighter sailboat. But I
> can scrape together 3 or 4K to build one. ...
> [so] many people... [can] experience the joys
> of getting out on the water without having
> to mortgage the farm.

$3 or 4K will buy a serviceable, though
neglected, 30 foot used boat!

For most people, the only reason to build a
boat is for the joy of building a boat!
Another potential reason, can be that you
need/want to own a *truly* unique boat,
and we all know that PB&F offer several
of those <grin>. [Like the Insolent 60,
or a Superbrick.]

I had the experience of checking out South
Beach Harbor marina in San Francisco over
the weekend and found it remarkable just
how extremely similar all the boats were!
And, in my minds eye, I was imagining a
red and green Micro Navigator misfitted in
that fleet.

That's it.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...>
wrote:
> You
> > can't compare the numbers, at least in the cold light of day;
while
> you're
> > chuckling over the wood that you spent over an hour picking out
of
> the
> > woodpile at the lumber yard, and borrowing a tool or two, and
> taking as long
> > as you like to finish that long-contemplated gem in the back
yard,
> the guy
> > who has the poor judgment to be in the 'business' of building
boats
> is
> > building as fast as he can (balancing the sometimes
clear/sometimes
> cryptic
> > prints from a mixed bag of designers) using available materials
in
> a rented
> > space that has to be lit, heated, insured and outfitted, and
> somewhere in
> > there the poor devil is attempting to wring out a living wage,
> however
> > slender. God forbid he has the added burden of hired help! I
> suppose I
> > forgot the ready hand of the tax man, as well....
> >
> > David Romasco
>
> Yes I would agree that it may not seem fair to compare the numbers
> directly and I really appreciate the plight of the small custom
shop.
>
> However the reality in the cold light of day is that I don't have
20
> K to spend on a 15 foot overnighter sailboat. But I can scrape
> together 3 or 4K to build one. And I expect I could hire a helper
to
> do some of the work if it is a set of Bolger plans that require
> mostly skills available to the average carpenter and builder of
homes.
>
> Mr. Bolger and a few of his contemperaries have made it possible
for
> many people in the lower income bracket to experience the joys of
> getting out on the water without having to mortgage the farm.
> Sometimes we do it in a design that flies in the face of the
> mainstream and custom builders because they can't really compete
with
> us, as their prospective customers have an image in their minds
that
> our boats just don't fit in with, and therefore would never sell.
>
> They can't afford to take the risks that we can and that is why
> perhaps Mr. Bolger has a special place in his heart for people like
> us.
>
> Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
You
> can't compare the numbers, at least in the cold light of day; while
you're
> chuckling over the wood that you spent over an hour picking out of
the
> woodpile at the lumber yard, and borrowing a tool or two, and
taking as long
> as you like to finish that long-contemplated gem in the back yard,
the guy
> who has the poor judgment to be in the 'business' of building boats
is
> building as fast as he can (balancing the sometimes clear/sometimes
cryptic
> prints from a mixed bag of designers) using available materials in
a rented
> space that has to be lit, heated, insured and outfitted, and
somewhere in
> there the poor devil is attempting to wring out a living wage,
however
> slender. God forbid he has the added burden of hired help! I
suppose I
> forgot the ready hand of the tax man, as well....
>
> David Romasco

Yes I would agree that it may not seem fair to compare the numbers
directly and I really appreciate the plight of the small custom shop.

However the reality in the cold light of day is that I don't have 20
K to spend on a 15 foot overnighter sailboat. But I can scrape
together 3 or 4K to build one. And I expect I could hire a helper to
do some of the work if it is a set of Bolger plans that require
mostly skills available to the average carpenter and builder of homes.

Mr. Bolger and a few of his contemperaries have made it possible for
many people in the lower income bracket to experience the joys of
getting out on the water without having to mortgage the farm.
Sometimes we do it in a design that flies in the face of the
mainstream and custom builders because they can't really compete with
us, as their prospective customers have an image in their minds that
our boats just don't fit in with, and therefore would never sell.

They can't afford to take the risks that we can and that is why
perhaps Mr. Bolger has a special place in his heart for people like
us.

Cheers, Nels

Hmmm..... first, as I'm the fellow that mentioned Westy farmer in connection
with nautical vegetables, let me offer the exact usage as employed by Mr.
Farmer in his book 'From My Old Boat Shop': "My attempt to isolate and
interview Mr. M, the alleged naval artichoke for the Aluminum Association,
was like looking for the janitor on the the movie set of Gone With The
Wind." Seems to me it wasn't self-depreciating at all (as I had remembered
it), and has a bit of an edge..... I doubt this is exactly the feeling Mr.
Atkin was trying to convey regarding Mr. Bolger.

Secondly: while I agree regarding PCB's undeniable skills in the art and
science of boat design, I would disagree with your apples-and-oranges
comparison between home building and the product of a small boat shop. You
can't compare the numbers, at least in the cold light of day; while you're
chuckling over the wood that you spent over an hour picking out of the
woodpile at the lumber yard, and borrowing a tool or two, and taking as long
as you like to finish that long-contemplated gem in the back yard, the guy
who has the poor judgment to be in the 'business' of building boats is
building as fast as he can (balancing the sometimes clear/sometimes cryptic
prints from a mixed bag of designers) using available materials in a rented
space that has to be lit, heated, insured and outfitted, and somewhere in
there the poor devil is attempting to wring out a living wage, however
slender. God forbid he has the added burden of hired help! I suppose I
forgot the ready hand of the tax man, as well....

David Romasco

_____

From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 3:55 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: PCB's Reputation

A person can build himself a complete liveaboard cruiser for example -
for less than the cost of the sails, rigging, winches, etc. etc. on
a manugfactured boat of equivalent capabilities.

I notice that even a small 15 foot overnighter like Devlin's "Nancy's
China" costs 20k if purchased from his shop. Not even sure what "Surf
Scoter" would cost - proably 3 times what Idaho would, althoguh I am
not sure they are really comparable.

Nels

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gavin Atkin" <gavinatkin@y...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
>
> >2) This is the USA; no gets much respect,
> > especially those who would like to insist on it.
>
> This isn't the USA! :-)
>
> I suspect the respect situation is probably worse here. And a good
> thing too!
>
> Gavin

Hmmmm, wonder where "here" is?

I think Mr. Bolger gets a lot of respect, not by insisting on it but
by earning it over many years.

I would like to add two further observations in regards to Mr. Bolger
that some others designers may find challenging:

1. He designs a far larger range of "Purpose Designed Boats" that at
the same have particlularly wide ranges for their purposes. This is
outside the ability zone of many designers who tend to think along
similar traditional lines with a narrow range of ideas.

2. He makes it possible for the average - or even neophyte - builder
to build himself a boat that is better than a ready-made one. And
even if there a design that is equivalent it will cost as much as 10
times what a guy can often build the Bolger boat for.

A person can build himself a complete liveaboard cruiser for example -
for less than the cost of the sails, rigging, winches, etc. etc. on
a manugfactured boat of equivalent capabilities.

I notice that even a small 15 foot overnighter like Devlin's "Nancy's
China" costs 20k if purchased from his shop. Not even sure what "Surf
Scoter" would cost - proably 3 times what Idaho would, althoguh I am
not sure they are really comparable.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

>2) This is the USA; no gets much respect,
> especially those who would like to insist on it.

This isn't the USA! :-)

I suspect the respect situation is probably worse here. And a good
thing too!

Gavin

> In an earlier post, someone had written "artichoke" as an

alternative

> to "architect" -- sort of a self-denigrating description--not
> uncommon among those who labor 5 years at a university, 3 years in
> practice and then must squeeze through horendous exams. Just
> repeated it, keeping it up. Much like many such word twists that
> architects play with: "I always wanted to be an arch-e-teck, and

now

> I are one.", etc., etc.

Let's be clear. This usage did not originate on this list, or with
anyone on this list. I can't say where it started but I quote this
from page 88 of Practical Small Boat Designs by John Atkin:

"Many skiffs are too wide on their bottoms, or they have too much (or
too little) rocker and inadequate flare on their topsides. A vertical-
sided skiff is dangerous, not withstanding the philosophy of
my 'Naval Artichoke' friend, Phil Bolger, out of Gloucester,
Massachusetts."

Bolger and Atkin disagreed publicly, but (as far as I know) amicably,
about skiff design.

Someone else on this list said that Weston Farmer used "artichoke,"
perhaps referring to himself. Farmer worked in publishing and was
much more of a wordsmith than John Atkin. Atkin's writing is pretty
sort on wordplay, so I would not be surprised if he picked it up from
someone else.

As for the education, the apprenticeship, and the exams, I note two
things. 1) There are lots of people who spend years getting
established in their chosen line of work, and it extends far beyond
doctors and architects. 2) This is the USA; no gets much respect,
especially those who would like to insist on it.

Peter

In an earlier post, someone had written "artichoke" as an alternative
to "architect" -- sort of a self-denigrating description--not
uncommon among those who labor 5 years at a university, 3 years in
practice and then must squeeze through horendous exams. Just
repeated it, keeping it up. Much like many such word twists that
architects play with: "I always wanted to be an arch-e-teck, and now
I are one.", etc., etc.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> OK, I've got to ask. What is the sense of the word artichoke? The
> dictionary gives a derivation from Moorish, thru Spanish, and
Italian, but
> also " ... people who did not know the long history of the word
explained it
> by the notion that the flower had a "choke," that is, something
that chokes,
> in its "heart."
>
> I can't believe you're implying that PCB (or FLW) designs have
something
> thorny at core.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dickb_bolger" <burnharch@h...>
>
> > The fabulous thing about FLLW is that he had a philosophical
> > foundation from which he grew his designs. While aesthetic,
logical,
> > with a respect for materials, and with a close relationship to the
> > land, he rarely missed the mark. Of course there are those who
> > rejoice and twitter at the leaking roof here, the decomposing
> > concrete there--but they are essentially admirers. Innovation
was a
> > crucical outcome of all this because each design sprang from a
> > philosophical base. Does Bolger fit this approach to design? In
> > many respects: You bet. Logical use of materials, rational
> > development of concepts, and more -- all of this, at least to
> > me, "seems" to point to a more philosophical approach to nautical
> > artichokeism than historicism or rerubbing the same Commodore
Munroe
> > design again and again. (Oh, and I'm a non-nautical artichoke...)
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
> > > Bruce Hallman wrote:
> > > > Sometimes I describe Phil Bolger as a
> > > > 'Frank Lloyd Wright' of naval architects.
> > >
> > > An interesting comparison. I have heard several people refer
> > > to FLW as "Frank Lloyd Wrong". His designs were undoubtably
> > > innovative and influenced an entire generation of architects,
> > > but many of the buildings were impractical and uncomfortable
> > > to live in.

> What is the sense of the word artichoke?

Just a funny word something like "architect" as far as I know.
Nothing very deep or tricky.

Peter

OK, I've got to ask. What is the sense of the word artichoke? The
dictionary gives a derivation from Moorish, thru Spanish, and Italian, but
also " ... people who did not know the long history of the word explained it
by the notion that the flower had a "choke," that is, something that chokes,
in its "heart."

I can't believe you're implying that PCB (or FLW) designs have something
thorny at core.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "dickb_bolger" <burnharch@...>

> The fabulous thing about FLLW is that he had a philosophical
> foundation from which he grew his designs. While aesthetic, logical,
> with a respect for materials, and with a close relationship to the
> land, he rarely missed the mark. Of course there are those who
> rejoice and twitter at the leaking roof here, the decomposing
> concrete there--but they are essentially admirers. Innovation was a
> crucical outcome of all this because each design sprang from a
> philosophical base. Does Bolger fit this approach to design? In
> many respects: You bet. Logical use of materials, rational
> development of concepts, and more -- all of this, at least to
> me, "seems" to point to a more philosophical approach to nautical
> artichokeism than historicism or rerubbing the same Commodore Munroe
> design again and again. (Oh, and I'm a non-nautical artichoke...)
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
> > Bruce Hallman wrote:
> > > Sometimes I describe Phil Bolger as a
> > > 'Frank Lloyd Wright' of naval architects.
> >
> > An interesting comparison. I have heard several people refer
> > to FLW as "Frank Lloyd Wrong". His designs were undoubtably
> > innovative and influenced an entire generation of architects,
> > but many of the buildings were impractical and uncomfortable
> > to live in.

Aside from the originality and diversity of his designs, Mr. Bolger
appears to me to be an excellent example of a person who lives
his life doing exactly what he loves to do, at a pace and in a
manner of his own choosing.

How many of us have banished the constant interruption of the
telephone and internet from our workplace so that we might go
about our tasks undisturbed and unhurried?

How many of us take the time to write thoughtful letters in
longhand to each and every of our customers?

How many of us have reduced our own personal and family
needs to the point where a few carefully considered new projects
and the ongoing sale of modestly priced stock items is enough
to support us?

It's this evidence of an elegant, essential and intentional
approach to everyday living and the conduct of business that has
firmly established Mr. Bolger's reputation with me.

Lee Rust
Rochester, NY

Yep, I agree Hugo, that would be stupid. What I was really getting at was
using Doug Fir for the bottom (cheaper), and okoume for the sides (bends
better and doesn't check).

-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Tyson [mailto:hhetyson@...]

Yes it might be stupid to build one side out of one type of ply and the
other side of another type, their weights might vary quite a bit, depending
on the wood, so the boat may have a list!, plus how each type of ply bends
to conform to curves may vary due to what wood its made from!??

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes it might be stupid to build one side out of one type of ply and the other side of another type, their weights might vary quite a bit, depending on the wood, so the boat may have a list!, plus how each type of ply bends to conform to curves may vary due to what wood its made from!??

Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:

> I was wondering is there a reason not to mix different kinds of

marine

> plywood? For example using marine Douglas Fir on a flat bottom

with the

> sides and deck of Okoume?

Hi Frank,
As long as you stick to the designers scantlings( specified
dimensions of building material) I cannot imagine any harm at all
from "mixing".Especially if you are looking to highlight specific
elements of the boat to best advantage.
One caveat,however,would be to at least make sure your okoumé is
real marine grade and even then.......some of the stuff I've seen
here in Montreal should only be used on interior structures!
What are you fixing to build?

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:

> I was wondering is there a reason not to mix different kinds of

marine

> plywood? For example using marine Douglas Fir on a flat bottom

with the

> sides and deck of Okoume?

I was wondering is there a reason not to mix different kinds of marine
plywood? For example using marine Douglas Fir on a flat bottom with the
sides and deck of Okoume?

FrankB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter, and others that commented on my original post, thank you.

I've always considered myself somewhat of a rebel; I often find myself
rooting for the underdog (I'm a lifelong Cubs fan for crying out loud, and I
do mean crying); I do have traditional tastes, but ones that are often
tempered with the unusual, the innovative, the weird. From the first time I
discovered PCB's designs (and this group), it has been a journey of
fascination. I've yet to see one of PCB's designs that I haven't, if not
fell in love with, found absolutely irresistible. Early on I was simply in
love with the "Bolger Boxes." I was abashed that some people thought they
were ugly. I thought the AS39 was simply beautiful as built by the Wise's.
Recently I have been cheating on the AS39 with the Tahiti. This boat,
through the write-ups in MAIB (about 4 articles), and a couple of letters to
PCB asking for more information, has given me countless hours of study,
contemplation, and yes, dreaming. You see, I want to go to sea (again). If
my only alternative was to purchase an ocean capable trawler at $100K-$200K
(on the cheap side) I'd have no dream. Who else does what Philip Bolger
does on the kind of scale he does it (6' to 90' LOA)? It's probably
impossible to become familiar with all designers, but I've enjoyed looking
at many other designers work, and have come to the conclusion that PCB is
quite literally unique, which all of you know. Frankly, I don't care what
other designers think of him, but the question had never occurred to me
before, and where better to ask it than this group so again, thanks for
participating in this tread; it was most interesting to me.

FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Lenihan [mailto:lestat@...]

Frank,
I do not know.You might try sending off a few faxes to any number
of designers to find out what"they" think.
I'm certainly no designer and my criteria for choosing a Bolger
design could best be characterized as pedestrian. That is,there is no
expert analysis of engineering rules,no comprehensive review of navel
architecture and certainly no comparative study of select designs.
Indeed, there is only something visceral which speaks volumes to ME.
And in the end,it is precisely these volumes of inner dialogue
which are of any value to me since I am the only one who has to build
it,pay for it and use it.
Similarly, I suspect that it is these inner dialogues we all
engage in regardless of endeavour and which serve to inform our
choices.
Grateful am I that Bolger is not everyones cup of tea as this
allows me to view a wonderful plethora of other designers ideas and
tastes,even if I happen to find some of them bone ugly;-)
And finally,the success of any design is as much a function of
the designers skills as the builders ability to execute the design in
an intelligent and prudent manner.This,combined with a client who has
a clear vision of what they want from a "new" design commission
greatly enhances the happiness of all involved.:-D

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan, a happy and satisfied Bolger client who enjoys a bit
of weirdness once in a while just to escape the mind-numbing sameness
of modern esthetics,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence.......

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
Things I admire most about Mr. Bolger:

He enjoys immensley twisting the tails of sacred cows.

He never fundamentally tampered with his designs to make them appear
more "acceptable" in the eyes of the traditionalists.

He always seemed ot have Gems of wisdom and humor imbedded in his
commentary and never took himself too seriously.

He walked his talk.

These are admirable traits no matter what the field of endeavor in my
mind.

Nels

I agree with Nels

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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Bales" <fbales@l...> wrote:
What's Bolger's reputation in
> the design world?

Frank,
I do not know.You might try sending off a few faxes to any number
of designers to find out what"they" think.
I'm certainly no designer and my criteria for choosing a Bolger
design could best be characterized as pedestrian. That is,there is no
expert analysis of engineering rules,no comprehensive review of navel
architecture and certainly no comparative study of select designs.
Indeed, there is only something visceral which speaks volumes to ME.
And in the end,it is precisely these volumes of inner dialogue
which are of any value to me since I am the only one who has to build
it,pay for it and use it.
Similarly, I suspect that it is these inner dialogues we all
engage in regardless of endeavour and which serve to inform our
choices.
Grateful am I that Bolger is not everyones cup of tea as this
allows me to view a wonderful plethora of other designers ideas and
tastes,even if I happen to find some of them bone ugly;-)
And finally,the success of any design is as much a function of
the designers skills as the builders ability to execute the design in
an intelligent and prudent manner.This,combined with a client who has
a clear vision of what they want from a "new" design commission
greatly enhances the happiness of all involved.:-D

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan, a happy and satisfied Bolger client who enjoys a bit
of weirdness once in a while just to escape the mind-numbing sameness
of modern esthetics,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence........

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...> >
True, said another way, they both continually

> question(ed) the conventional wisdom of their
> peers. Sometimes with success and sometimes not.
> And, often they walk(ed) the line between the
> alienation and the admiration of their peers.

Things I admire most about Mr. Bolger:

He enjoys immensley twisting the tails of sacred cows.

He never fundamentally tampered with his designs to make them appear
more "acceptable" in the eyes of the traditionalists.

He always seemed ot have Gems of wisdom and humor imbedded in his
commentary and never took himself too seriously.

He walked his talk.

These are admirable traits no matter what the field of endeavor in my
mind.

Nels

--- "dickb_bolger" wrote:

> The fabulous thing about [Frank Lloyd
> Wright versus Phil Bolger] ... philosophical
> foundation...aesthetic, logical, with a respect
> for materials, and with a close relationship to
> the land, [they] rarely missed the mark.

True, said another way, they both continually
question(ed) the conventional wisdom of their
peers. Sometimes with success and sometimes not.
And, often they walk(ed) the line between the
alienation and the admiration of their peers.
-----------------------

He has also taken on design challenges that others would have
dismissed out of hand.

Perhaps I'm readying too much into Mr. Fountains's post, but I
believe the Bolger box he's maligning as "obsession with maximising
(sic) accomodation (sic) for a given waterline" to be my friend Bob
Wise's Loose Moose II.

If one believes the design of the LMII is constrained merely by
waterline, then he understands neither the boat, nor the designer.
Waterline was but one of many apparently self-contradicting
limitations and requirements that the commission called for. If the
Loose Moose II doesn't look like any boat you've ever seen before,
that's because it does things (given the same modest investment of
time, money, and running costs) that no boat you've ever seen before
can do. Not only was it faster than most other cruising boats, it was
more capacious and comfortable than many larger boats. More over, Bob
and Sheila were able to give their retirement dream for a shakedown
cruise while they were still relatively young. No house was sold, no
Rubicon crossed to finance this dream. The boat was build quickly and
inexpensively. Bob and Sheila were exploring the coast of Africa
while the rest of us pined "someday..."

If I sound like an apologist for the Gospel according to Bolger, I
am. Building the Teal changed my life. A great and mysterious world
has opened up to me and asks only the purchase of a Skilsaw and
electric drill as the price of admission. What's PCB's reputation
among other navel architects? Who among them can claim saving men's
souls as an accomplishment? Who among them is fit to pass judgement?

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

--- "dickb_bolger" wrote:

> The fabulous thing about [Frank Lloyd
> Wright versus Phil Bolger] ... philosophical
> foundation...aesthetic, logical, with a respect
> for materials, and with a close relationship to
> the land, [they] rarely missed the mark.

The Folding Schooner Comes with 2 Masts.
They could be used as "Gin Poles" and you wouldn't have
to have any other pieces to carry around.
Just have to figure the best way to use them.

Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> --- pvanderwaart wrote:
> > I saw a picture of a simple solution;
> > a pole mounted on the trailer
> > to make a mini-crane.
>
> I think I saw the same picture.
> A 12" piece of metal pipe of an inside
> diameter to fit one of the Folding
> Schooner masts welded to the boat
> trailer frame in just the right place.
>
> You run a line though on of the halyard
> dumb sheaves to get mechanical advantage.
>
> A very elegant and cheap solution.

The fabulous thing about FLLW is that he had a philosophical
foundation from which he grew his designs. While aesthetic, logical,
with a respect for materials, and with a close relationship to the
land, he rarely missed the mark. Of course there are those who
rejoice and twitter at the leaking roof here, the decomposing
concrete there--but they are essentially admirers. Innovation was a
crucical outcome of all this because each design sprang from a
philosophical base. Does Bolger fit this approach to design? In
many respects: You bet. Logical use of materials, rational
development of concepts, and more -- all of this, at least to
me, "seems" to point to a more philosophical approach to nautical
artichokeism than historicism or rerubbing the same Commodore Munroe
design again and again. (Oh, and I'm a non-nautical artichoke...)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
> > Sometimes I describe Phil Bolger as a
> > 'Frank Lloyd Wright' of naval architects.
>
> An interesting comparison. I have heard several people refer
> to FLW as "Frank Lloyd Wrong". His designs were undoubtably
> innovative and influenced an entire generation of architects,
> but many of the buildings were impractical and uncomfortable
> to live in.
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> Sometimes I describe Phil Bolger as a
> 'Frank Lloyd Wright' of naval architects.

An interesting comparison. I have heard several people refer
to FLW as "Frank Lloyd Wrong". His designs were undoubtably
innovative and influenced an entire generation of architects,
but many of the buildings were impractical and uncomfortable
to live in.

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia

I also think that Phil Bolger is one of
the most knowledgeable boat historians.

---------

In his introductory remarks on the Jochem's schooner video, Bolger
attributes much what what other people call his inventiveness to his
knowledge of history. He offers this by way of explaining that he
thinks that his Birdwatcher concept actually IS inventive, rather
than a clever (or not so clever) adaptation of an existing idea.

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

> This is what Tom Mac Naughton (N.A.) Thinks of
> Bolger and his designs:
> ...stunningly brilliant...

And with 700 plus designs total,
he has some clunkers too.

I can't think of any of the 700 which can be
described as 'conformist'.

Sometimes I describe Phil Bolger as a
'Frank Lloyd Wright' of naval architects.

I also think that Phil Bolger is one of
the most knowledgeable boat historians.

I may be wrong (been known to happen), but I believe it was Weston Farmer
who coined the phrase 'Naval Artichoke' and used it in a self-depreciatory
manner.

I've seen a large number of PCB's designs from the Fifties and Sixties, and
they are solid proof (as if any were required) that PCB is a master of
'conventional' design and aesthetics. I believe he simply got bored with
cranking out designs that were simply elegant, and found that there's a good
deal more sheer enjoyment in pulling a usable and unique design from a
technically challenging construction material or technique. Sometimes it
doesn't work, and naysayers rejoice; there are many more mediocre or even
dangerous boats from lesser designers that get no richly merited criticism
because they're more 'mainstream'.

David Romasco

_____

From: pvanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 8:46 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: PCB's Reputation

> > What's Bolger's reputation in the design world?

John Atkin called him his "naval artichoke friend." I took this to
mean that he disagreed with him without disliking or disrespecting
him.

Jacques Mertens once wrote something to the effect that Bolger likes
to get people's attentions with weird designs. I'm not sure how he
meant it, but I, for one, don't think that attention-getting is the
purpose of the Bolger boxes. He (Bolger) thinks those have certain
merits, and designs things like Snow Leopard and the 40' Racing
Schooner when attention-getting is on the program.

It takes a certain ego to be any kind of designer, whether of boats,
or buildings, or clothes, because the role forces the designer's
taste and opinions on the client.

Peter

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > What's Bolger's reputation in the design world?

This is what Tom Mac Naughton (N.A.) Thinks of Bolger and his designs:

"macnaughtongroup.com" <friends@...> wrote:
Dear Mr. Tyson,

I glad you are going ahead with your project and particularly glad you
chose Mr. Bolger. He has done some of my very favorite designs. I would
never mind losing a job to Phil and indeed often send people to him
when I
don't think I'm a good match for their goals.

"Snow Leopard" in particular seems like a stunningly brilliant concept.
I
think Phil designs better planing hulls than most people in the
business
because he is comfortable developing his own concepts rather than just
copying other people's interpretation of the latest fashion.

Many I also add two more points: If Mr. Bolger is charging less than we
are, especially since he is in a higher cost area, I think you may take
it
that this project is very close to his heart. This is always a good
sign.
I also believe Mr. Bolger to be a very fine and honest gentleman with
far
less personal ego than most designers. This is also a very good thing.

Best wishes on your project. I'm sure she'll be a beauty.

Sincerely,
Tom MacNaughton
Naval Architect
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com

fountainb@...wrote:
Frank Bales wrote:

> I've been discussing PCB's designs with a person who's sailed all his

life

> (in his 70's), but now has a trawler, has built boats, known some pretty
> famous cruisers, and NA's, and who thinks Bolger is pretty weird. Of
> course our discussions have been centered on off shore capable designs.

> don't agree with him, but it made me wonder what do other naval

architects

> think of PCB? I just assumed everyone recognized him as a genius, but
> apparently that ain't so. Does anyone know? What's Bolger's reputation

> the design world?

Naval Architects and other boat designers are generally pretty
cautious about offering opinions on their peers' work, at least while
their peers are alive, which makes sense - a designer has little to
gain and much to lose by casting nasturtiums at other designers.

However, occasionally you catch the odd slip. I know of one
prominent designer of home-built plywood boats who feels that
Bolger's slab-sided designs are frankly dangerous, not to mention
uncomfortable, for offshore use.

I think Mr Bolger's greatest ingenuity is apparent in the small,
"instant" designs which have made boat building a feasible
hobby for people like most of us. Some of these are very
attractive boats. Once you get up to the yachts, I find the
obsession with maximising accomodation for a given waterline
length makes for an ugly boat. Were I planning to tip several
years and a large proportion of my retirement savings into
a liveaboard cruiser I would probably look for something
more conventional and prettier, which would hold its value
better.

Of course, I am expressing stereotypes here, I know PCB has
designed some very pretty boats, but it is the boxes
that people associated with Bolger, and this is what people
visualise when the subject comes up. And I am no designer,
so who cares what I think?

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank Bales wrote:

> I've been discussing PCB's designs with a person who's sailed all his

life

> (in his 70's), but now has a trawler, has built boats, known some pretty
> famous cruisers, and NA's, and who thinks Bolger is pretty weird. Of
> course our discussions have been centered on off shore capable designs.

> don't agree with him, but it made me wonder what do other naval

architects

> think of PCB? I just assumed everyone recognized him as a genius, but
> apparently that ain't so. Does anyone know? What's Bolger's reputation

> the design world?

I've been discussing PCB's designs with a person who's sailed all his life
(in his 70's), but now has a trawler, has built boats, known some pretty
famous cruisers, and NA's, and who thinks Bolger is pretty weird. Of
course our discussions have been centered on off shore capable designs. I
don't agree with him, but it made me wonder what do other naval architects
think of PCB? I just assumed everyone recognized him as a genius, but
apparently that ain't so. Does anyone know? What's Bolger's reputation in
the design world?

Frank

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trailering the LS is absolutely no big deal. Boat and trailer are
very light. The only argument I can think of for the folding
scooner, besides novelty, is indoors storage.

The LS will capsize and is not recoverable as is without getting to
the beach. I modified mine, though I haven't had the opportunity to
test it again. I have some pictures at:

http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html

Gregg

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "minnboatbuilder" <tbush@d...> wrote:
> First post (Please be gentle) :0)
>
> I feel the need to build a schooner, but am having a problem
deciding
> if it should be a Folding Schooner or a Light Scooner. Any
comments,
> opinions or experiences would be appreciated. The boat will be used
> for recreation on lakes.
> Right or wrong here are my assumptions:
>
> The Folding Schooner (FS) will be easier to trailer and store than
> the Light Scooner (LS).
> The FS will cost 20% more to build and take 20% longer to build.
> The FS it longer, heavier, and has a little less sail so it should
be
> harder to knock down than the LS.
> The LS will be more nimble and thus easier to get into and out of
> trouble.
> Crew requirements are about the same for either boat. Ballast may
be
> required for a light crew in the FS.
>

I got to crew on a LS summer before last at the Mahone Bay Wooden Boat
Festival races. It is indeed an exhilarating boat. I think the fun :
building-effort ratio would make the LS my choice over the FS. A crew of
five adult males was no where near her weight limits. But I agree about the
LS capacity to get into trouble. We got broad-sided by one in our June Bug
during a mixed race the year before. A very scary experience. Fortunately it
was light wind. I wouldn't want to have to deal with LS swamped either. It
could ruin your day, literally. On the other hand, if you like the idea of
Bird Watcher, but are in love with the schooner rig you might consider the
Jochems Schooner...;-)

jeb, altogether too free with casual suggestions on the impoverished shores
of Fundy

Of course there's no reason that the Folding Schooner HAS to fold! Or
the I60 for that matter.

It could be transported on two traillers and clamped or bolted
together afloat a la TIMS! No crashing or banging, fewer crushed
fingers. Just a gentlemanly (or gentle-womanly) shifting of weight
between your two legs to line up a few bolts holes.

Why, you could even construct a 8 foot (or so) cabin unit to bolt in
the centre whenever a longer expedition took you fancy.

Bo'sun Bruce Hector

Just the humble thoughts of a fevered btrain too long spaked in CPCs
(corrosion prevention compounds) dreaming of building a Welsfors dory
with nothing but a Swiss Army knife this winter in the sunny south.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

> > The Bird Watcher is a beautiful boat. Probably more practical in

the

> > long run. I just can't seem to get all that wonderful Schooner
> > rigging out of my head. :0)
>

W. B. Jochems is the answer - Now what was the question?

Nels:-)

--- pvanderwaart wrote:

> I saw a picture of a simple solution;
> a pole mounted on the trailer
> to make a mini-crane.

I think I saw the same picture.
A 12" piece of metal pipe of an inside
diameter to fit one of the Folding
Schooner masts welded to the boat
trailer frame in just the right place.

You run a line though on of the halyard
dumb sheaves to get mechanical advantage.

A very elegant and cheap solution.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

>>> It's obvious, then: build an Insolent 60! Come on, you *know* you

want one....<<<

I bow to your wisdom :o)
One of the two schooners had been my dream boat until I found this
group and clicked on that darned I60 thread. I guess my previous
dream has become a stepping stone. My poor, long suffering wife. A
husband lost to plywood, power tools, and boats. Please nobody
commission a 90 footer! It would be her or the boat and I would miss
her. :o)
-----------------------------

I had the same thought, but resisted. Having already lured Sue into
my scheme (our scheme now) I don't know that I want to bear the
responsibility of another lost soul. Still, you might find the below
entertaining...

http://www.crumblingempire.com/insolent

For those of you who have visited previously, the timeline page has
been updated. It's now in reverse chronological order, and has links
to the crucial exchanges in the now infamous insolvent60 thread.

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

>>> It's obvious, then: build an Insolent 60! Come on, you *know* you

> The Bird Watcher is a beautiful boat. Probably more practical in the
> long run. I just can't seem to get all that wonderful Schooner
> rigging out of my head. :0)

So, you need trailerability, love schooners, don't want to dump the
boat like a Light Schooner might, are willing to deal with folding
and unfolding the boat on a trailer, and don't mind hauling large
and heavy trailers around.

It's obvious, then: build an Insolent 60! Come on, you *know* you
want one....

:-)

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>

You might consider something on your tow vehicle similar to what I rigged
for my old Ford vanhttp://derbyrm.mystarband.net/toys.html

Two fence rails from Home Depot, a weldment to connect the tops, four wooden
plugs turned to fill the ends, and a come-along or chain hoist for lifting.

I aimed at 1000 lbs capacity, but haven't really tested. It's at least that
good.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...>

> > A' frame wide enough to clear
> > the boat, pivoted at the rear of the trailer frame.
>
> I saw a picture of a simple solution; a pole mounted on the trailer
> to make a mini-crane. The problem is not the weight so much as the
> lack of good mechanical advantage. A little sky hook could make a big
> difference.

> A' frame wide enough to clear
> the boat, pivoted at the rear of the trailer frame.

I saw a picture of a simple solution; a pole mounted on the trailer
to make a mini-crane. The problem is not the weight so much as the
lack of good mechanical advantage. A little sky hook could make a big
difference.

PHV

The Bird Watcher is a beautiful boat. Probably more practical in the
long run. I just can't seem to get all that wonderful Schooner
rigging out of my head. :0)
--------

Open up a picture book of old schooner and what do you see? Long
mainbooms that carry well aft of the transom, and bowsprits. Why?
Because schooner were all about putting up the most sail area on a
given hull. If it's purely a question of looks/romance, go for the
Light Scooner!

As far as merging cars, I'm sure you could rig a BIG FLAG to fly from
a flag pole stuck in the main mast partner.

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

>>> Trailering is as much about weight at length. I HATE trailering

as a
primary means of using a boat<<<

Trailering is a necessity for me. I don't live on the water or have a
place to leave a boat. On the plus side within a days round trip I
have more lakes to sail than I could ever hope to get to.
I don't mind pulling a long trailer, I have pulled a 38'long horse
trailer all over the country. I dislike pulling long, light trailers
or long, low trailers. One gets blown around by passing trucks, and
the other gets merged into by motorists who did not expect a trailer
to be there.

The Bird Watcher is a beautiful boat. Probably more practical in the
long run. I just can't seem to get all that wonderful Schooner
rigging out of my head. :0)

Tim (watching the snow accumulate) Bush

>>> we got some passersby to help with the folding. It's a serious

procedure, though, like so many other things, aids can be developed
to make it easier. <<<

I had given this some thought. My first pass solution is a
modification to the trailer to add an 'A' frame wide enough to clear
the boat, pivoted at the rear of the trailer frame. A winch could be
used to raise the frame to verticle and the frame held with a pin.
The winch cable would then be free to hoist the bow up and let it
down the other side. Easier folding, but another project to add to
the list.

--- pvanderwaart wrote:

> The metal work (hinges, latches) on the FS was a
> problem for my
> friend Leander. It was difficult to find someone
> willing to make
> these parts at a reasonable price.

I don't have my AISC steel book handy,
but those hinges could easily be cut from
a cheap commonly stocked steel shape, I recall
a W6x20 "I" beam. No welding required.
Should be very cheap that way, heck I would
even consider cutting it with a hacksaw blade
in my Saws-all, but a Oxyacetylene torch would
be the way to go if you had one.

I would vote to choose the Folding Schooner
if only for the reason, that it has that
astonishing Bolger ingenuity, imagine, a
folding boat!!!

> The FS will cost 20% more to build and take 20% longer to build.
> -----------
> I don't think there'd be a meaningful difference in the time it

took

> to build either. There are a couple of details on the LS that are
> absent on the FS that would easily chew up your 20%.

The metal work (hinges, latches) on the FS was a problem for my
friend Leander. It was difficult to find someone willing to make
these parts at a reasonable price. I don't think you can do without
the hinges, but I bet you could get away with a Wharram-like tie for
the latches.

Peter

The Folding Schooner (FS) will be easier to trailer and store than
the Light Scooner (LS).
-----------

Trailering is as much about weight at length. I HATE trailering as a
primary means of using a boat, but find the LS easy to pull, launch
and retrieve. Even so, I do it as little as possible. My boats are
chosen on the basis of being able to keep them within dragging
distance of the water (TEAL, GULL), or being able to keep them on the
the water (LS, I60)

The FS will cost 20% more to build and take 20% longer to build.
-----------
I don't think there'd be a meaningful difference in the time it took
to build either. There are a couple of details on the LS that are
absent on the FS that would easily chew up your 20%.

The FS it longer, heavier, and has a little less sail so it should be
harder to knock down than the LS.
-------------
I'm not sure the FS is heavier, is so probably not by much. I'm sure
the FS is a more docile boat, but why what degree I can't say.

The LS will be more nimble and thus easier to get into and out of
trouble.
--------------
Speaking from experience the LS is easy to get into trouble. The LS
rewards reckless handling with exhilarating behavior (think
schooner-rigged sailboard.) Without lots of extra flotation it's
hard to get out of trouble. I've been visited by the Coast Guard on
more than one occasion.

Crew requirements are about the same for either boat. Ballast may be
required for a light crew in the FS.
---------------
The longer waterline, smaller sailplan, and more advantageous crew
placement favor the FS. The decks on the LS make sitting inside
uncomfortable, and short handed it's not really an option -- you need
to be on the rail to have a prayer of keeping her flat. Since I sail
solo most of the time, I've actually had to teach my Newfoundland dog
to hike out. (I'll try to figure out a way to get a picture.) When
she's reefed down the LS sails well, but where's the fun in that?

I mostly sail by myself or with my daughter, which is even "worse"
(She was 11 months on the maiden voyage of the LSME) If I had to do
it over again I would have built either the Singlehanded Schooner or
better still, the birdwatcher. On the other hand, as she gets a
little older (she's 4 now) it will be great fun to take and her
friends out on the LS. When you fly the main staysail there's plenty
for every one to do. In anticipation of the I60 I'm abandoning LS as
a beach-cruiser and fitting her out with a super abundance of
flotation. No more visits from the Coasties!

I but I have no regrets about building the LS. From the moment I saw
it I was in love with the clipper bow, sprit and overhanging main
boom. Every time I see her rigged, I fall in love all over again!

YIBB,

David

--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296

> The Folding Schooner (FS) will be easier to trailer and store than
> the Light Scooner (LS).

I question this assumption. If the FS is heavier, and has the
folding/unfolding to be done, and the spars don't store as neatly, it
seems more work to me. I had one sail on an FS built by a friend, and
we got some passersby to help with the folding. It's a serious
procedure, though, like so many other things, aids can be developed
to make it easier. (Bolger said he did alone once to prove it was
possible, but he dropped it pretty hard at the end, both folding and
unfolding.)

I suppose the Single-Handed (His & Hers) Schooner is too small for
you, and has been elimated.

Peter

In a message dated 11/22/03 12:25:32 PM,tbush@...writes:

<< If this has all been cover before I apologize, please lead me to the

pertinent thread. Thanks.

- Tim B >>

I would like to see the postings too. Please lead me to the pertinent
thread. Thanks.
Thanks, Tim, we have similar needs at this time.

Smooth sailing dreams and building too,
boblynn
frboblynn@...
Just outside Chicago.

First post (Please be gentle) :0)

I feel the need to build a schooner, but am having a problem deciding
if it should be a Folding Schooner or a Light Scooner. Any comments,
opinions or experiences would be appreciated. The boat will be used
for recreation on lakes.
Right or wrong here are my assumptions:

The Folding Schooner (FS) will be easier to trailer and store than
the Light Scooner (LS).
The FS will cost 20% more to build and take 20% longer to build.
The FS it longer, heavier, and has a little less sail so it should be
harder to knock down than the LS.
The LS will be more nimble and thus easier to get into and out of
trouble.
Crew requirements are about the same for either boat. Ballast may be
required for a light crew in the FS.

If this has all been cover before I apologize, please lead me to the
pertinent thread. Thanks.

- Tim B