Re: [bolger] Re: Common Sense Boats which site to buy from?
--- Nels wrote:
Better put, "builders".
There just might be a real market selling
to the dreamers. Lower the prices on
plans, selling them as 'study plans only'
for $20 each. Make it up on volume.
I would be a real buyer for a deal like
that!.............^^^^^
> 2. Most of his customers were dreamers.................^^^^^^
> and not really buyers.
Better put, "builders".
There just might be a real market selling
to the dreamers. Lower the prices on
plans, selling them as 'study plans only'
for $20 each. Make it up on volume.
I would be a real buyer for a deal like
that!.............^^^^^
Hi All -
I think Peter has the right idea. PB and his wife run what must be pretty much a 2 man operation and the output is nothing short of prodigious. For now any one interested in bolger designs has plenty of info available to them. Get his books - new and used, go online to Yahoo's Bolger site & join-up, talk freely about your needs there and lastly FAX PB&F directly - the answeres to your questions come back very quickly. That's more than enough for now.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think Peter has the right idea. PB and his wife run what must be pretty much a 2 man operation and the output is nothing short of prodigious. For now any one interested in bolger designs has plenty of info available to them. Get his books - new and used, go online to Yahoo's Bolger site & join-up, talk freely about your needs there and lastly FAX PB&F directly - the answeres to your questions come back very quickly. That's more than enough for now.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
the "CSD Pirogue". See
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl05.htm
Brat
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:some
>
> ....When Bernie took over Elrowe's business he obviously had PCB's
> permission to market the plans and Phil even added a few more,
> specifically to answer wish lists for Bernie. Fish Cat and Idahocome
> to mind .....Actually "Fishcat" was a LaRowe design as well as what we call
> Nels
the "CSD Pirogue". See
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/mnl05.htm
Brat
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:
that his collaboration with Dynamite Payson was a wonderful event for
folks who love small boats but don't have much money. PCB basically
adapted ideas he had - to be produced in plywood - and Dynamite
tested them out and Phil allowed him to sell the plans and likely
charged a nominal royalty.
The late Elrow Larowe commisioned a few designs and likely got
permsission to advertise and market plans as well. He did it purely
out of love for the designs with no intention of making money. He was
already retired and on a pension. He probably paid a small royalty as
well.
When Bernie took over Elrowe's business he obviously had PCB's
permission to market the plans and Phil even added a few more, some
specifically to answer wish lists for Bernie. Fish Cat and Idaho come
to mind but this was at a particularly creative period and Mr. Bolger
was cranking out exciting designs much quicker than anyone could
build prototypes. The Birdwatcher and Microtrawler variations and the
State's designs, just to mention a few.
Now here is where I think things went awry. Bernie Wolfard really
thought he could make a good living out of his passion for building
and trying out Mr. Bolger's designs and selling the plans through
catalogues and newsletters. Being a secondary suppplier for materials
and even producing kits. Wrong! It didn't work despite his best
efforts and here is perhaps why:
1. You can't get rich selling to poor people.
2. Most of his customers were dreamers and not really buyers.
3. He was spending most of his time, money and efforts promoting
plans, offering help and advice to free loaders and getting more and
more in the hole financewise.
So he lowered his prices and got even more products - but there
really wasn't a market to support the business. He could not
encourage prototype builders to follow through and everyone was
waiting for the other shoe to fall. Eventually he got fed up, and was
behind on his royalty payments because he was broke.
He ended up basically giving away the business to another gentleman
who probably feels he can make a living at it to. However - although
Bernie had permission to market many of the newer plans from PCB -
that did not give him the right to sell that persmission to someone
else. And that is where it all fell apart.
Meanwhile Dynamite continued to sell plans as well as books and some
other items. He is a very astute business man, and I am sure knows
that you won't make a living selling small boat plans and therefore
runs it as a hobby with no intention of making a living at it. His
plans and services are a way underpriced. (You can purchase a boat
plan from him for less than what a carton of cigarettes costs in
Canada in most places.) By comparison, what PCB&F charge seems high,
yet their prices are low compared to most places - even though many
people complain about them being unreasonable.
So what we end up with is proof again of an old adage: If you sell
yourself too short, others will as well.
The main problem is that this is a very limited market and if we
don't adequately support it - the suppplies will disappear. And I
include MAIB, in this scenario as well.
That's how I see it, based on my own experience as a small business
person.
Nels
> I think you are correct. PCB is not a businessI would tend to agree and I am sure Mr. Bolger would. It seems to
> minded person - just a great designer.
that his collaboration with Dynamite Payson was a wonderful event for
folks who love small boats but don't have much money. PCB basically
adapted ideas he had - to be produced in plywood - and Dynamite
tested them out and Phil allowed him to sell the plans and likely
charged a nominal royalty.
The late Elrow Larowe commisioned a few designs and likely got
permsission to advertise and market plans as well. He did it purely
out of love for the designs with no intention of making money. He was
already retired and on a pension. He probably paid a small royalty as
well.
When Bernie took over Elrowe's business he obviously had PCB's
permission to market the plans and Phil even added a few more, some
specifically to answer wish lists for Bernie. Fish Cat and Idaho come
to mind but this was at a particularly creative period and Mr. Bolger
was cranking out exciting designs much quicker than anyone could
build prototypes. The Birdwatcher and Microtrawler variations and the
State's designs, just to mention a few.
Now here is where I think things went awry. Bernie Wolfard really
thought he could make a good living out of his passion for building
and trying out Mr. Bolger's designs and selling the plans through
catalogues and newsletters. Being a secondary suppplier for materials
and even producing kits. Wrong! It didn't work despite his best
efforts and here is perhaps why:
1. You can't get rich selling to poor people.
2. Most of his customers were dreamers and not really buyers.
3. He was spending most of his time, money and efforts promoting
plans, offering help and advice to free loaders and getting more and
more in the hole financewise.
So he lowered his prices and got even more products - but there
really wasn't a market to support the business. He could not
encourage prototype builders to follow through and everyone was
waiting for the other shoe to fall. Eventually he got fed up, and was
behind on his royalty payments because he was broke.
He ended up basically giving away the business to another gentleman
who probably feels he can make a living at it to. However - although
Bernie had permission to market many of the newer plans from PCB -
that did not give him the right to sell that persmission to someone
else. And that is where it all fell apart.
Meanwhile Dynamite continued to sell plans as well as books and some
other items. He is a very astute business man, and I am sure knows
that you won't make a living selling small boat plans and therefore
runs it as a hobby with no intention of making a living at it. His
plans and services are a way underpriced. (You can purchase a boat
plan from him for less than what a carton of cigarettes costs in
Canada in most places.) By comparison, what PCB&F charge seems high,
yet their prices are low compared to most places - even though many
people complain about them being unreasonable.
So what we end up with is proof again of an old adage: If you sell
yourself too short, others will as well.
The main problem is that this is a very limited market and if we
don't adequately support it - the suppplies will disappear. And I
include MAIB, in this scenario as well.
That's how I see it, based on my own experience as a small business
person.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
minded person - just a great designer.
The whole issue of intellectual property rights
is a scary one. I produce design drawings for
a living. One particular design (not done on
contract) had so much promise I promptly got on
a plane and flew to Washington to do my patent
search.
While there I stumbled upon (actually, let myself
in through an unsecured back door) an old and
savvy patent examiner at the PTO. His words were
"A patent is only as good as your ability to
defend it in court against predators." His advice
was to get the product on the market, sell hard,
then find someone to buy the business before the
sharks close in. I did and it worked.
My point is that Phil Bolger is fortunate that CSD
is the only one (or one of few) pirating his work.
Transfer PCB's work to CAD drawings, add a few
"improvements", change a few numbers and anyone
could quite legally and unethically pirate his work.
It's a testament to the good nature of the boating
community that this sort of thing is not common.
Doug
> My guess is that there never was aI think you are correct. PCB is not a business
> mutually agreed 'agreement'. When
> LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe,
> et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho:
> Did they buy the design, or the rights
> to build one boat of the design?
minded person - just a great designer.
The whole issue of intellectual property rights
is a scary one. I produce design drawings for
a living. One particular design (not done on
contract) had so much promise I promptly got on
a plane and flew to Washington to do my patent
search.
While there I stumbled upon (actually, let myself
in through an unsecured back door) an old and
savvy patent examiner at the PTO. His words were
"A patent is only as good as your ability to
defend it in court against predators." His advice
was to get the product on the market, sell hard,
then find someone to buy the business before the
sharks close in. I did and it worked.
My point is that Phil Bolger is fortunate that CSD
is the only one (or one of few) pirating his work.
Transfer PCB's work to CAD drawings, add a few
"improvements", change a few numbers and anyone
could quite legally and unethically pirate his work.
It's a testament to the good nature of the boating
community that this sort of thing is not common.
Doug
Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the
past and continue to build model ships. One of the
best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
via his internet site.
The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
less time he has to help builders, answer
correspondance,and generate new designs.
Shawn
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
past and continue to build model ships. One of the
best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
via his internet site.
The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
less time he has to help builders, answer
correspondance,and generate new designs.
Shawn
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
> I agree Peter. Bolger should do what Bolger does__________________________________
> best; design
> boats. I'm not saying he should stop and stuff
> envelopes or learn
> website construction. There are alternatives and
> these could be
> exploited. Payson's website is an example. I doubt
> seriously if he
> knows much about it's creation or operation,. He
> just gets the
> product out from orders generated. If PCB&F had the
> same or similar
> set up, then the question of "Who do I order from?"
> and the "CSD/CSB
> controversy" would go away.
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan"
> <lestat@b...> wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55"
> <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > Other than the designs sold by Payson,I
> > > doubt if anyone would know about PCB&F.Harold
> has a catalog of
> > sorts
> > > and a web presence, done for him by someone
> else. Bolger or
> > > (Altenberger) could do the same but won't and
> won't let anyone
> else
> > > do it for them
> >
> > Considering how long it takes to get a design done
> by the good
> > offices of PCB&Fs, I suspect that they are very
> much up to their
> ears
> > with work and the demand doesn't appear to be even
> close to
> slowing
> > down any.The last thing they would need now is a
> "web presence" or
> > any other device to further
> consume/interupt/disturb their time.
> > I am most grateful that Phil Bolger did not retire
> at 65 like most
> > and that he continues to put out remarkable
> designs at 70 is
> > something not to be taken lightly.
> > For what it's worth; I would be happy with a web
> site,done after
> his
> > passing, where his final lifetime output of
> designs and writings
> > could be properly assembled and displayed and
> perhaps existing
> plans
> > could then be sold through the site to off-set the
> cost of
> > maintaining it and to enrich his estate..........
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
Mr. Lenihan makes a good point here. I have in the
past and continue to build model ships. One of the
best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
via his internet site.
The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
less time he has to help builders, answer
correspondance,and generate new designs.
Shawn
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
past and continue to build model ships. One of the
best sources for plans has been Taubman's plan
service. When the venerable Mr. Abe Taubman's health
took a serious turn for the worse, a group of friends
and associates stepped in and ran the mail order side
of the business in trust, with all proceeds going to
the family to offset Abe's health care costs. Perhaps
the friends in PCB and FRIENDS could work out a
similar set-up. Mr. Payson and PCB seem to have a good
relationship,so perhaps he could be the sole source
via his internet site.
The more time Phil has to devote to "business" the
less time he has to help builders, answer
correspondance,and generate new designs.
Shawn
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
> I agree Peter. Bolger should do what Bolger does__________________________________
> best; design
> boats. I'm not saying he should stop and stuff
> envelopes or learn
> website construction. There are alternatives and
> these could be
> exploited. Payson's website is an example. I doubt
> seriously if he
> knows much about it's creation or operation,. He
> just gets the
> product out from orders generated. If PCB&F had the
> same or similar
> set up, then the question of "Who do I order from?"
> and the "CSD/CSB
> controversy" would go away.
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan"
> <lestat@b...> wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55"
> <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > Other than the designs sold by Payson,I
> > > doubt if anyone would know about PCB&F.Harold
> has a catalog of
> > sorts
> > > and a web presence, done for him by someone
> else. Bolger or
> > > (Altenberger) could do the same but won't and
> won't let anyone
> else
> > > do it for them
> >
> > Considering how long it takes to get a design done
> by the good
> > offices of PCB&Fs, I suspect that they are very
> much up to their
> ears
> > with work and the demand doesn't appear to be even
> close to
> slowing
> > down any.The last thing they would need now is a
> "web presence" or
> > any other device to further
> consume/interupt/disturb their time.
> > I am most grateful that Phil Bolger did not retire
> at 65 like most
> > and that he continues to put out remarkable
> designs at 70 is
> > something not to be taken lightly.
> > For what it's worth; I would be happy with a web
> site,done after
> his
> > passing, where his final lifetime output of
> designs and writings
> > could be properly assembled and displayed and
> perhaps existing
> plans
> > could then be sold through the site to off-set the
> cost of
> > maintaining it and to enrich his estate..........
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/
--- bgbeck55 wrote:
mutually agreed 'agreement'. When
LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe,
et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho:
Did they buy the design, or the rights
to build one boat of the design?
I think that the vast majority of
Bolger commissioned designs are for
the rights to build one boat of the
design. Are there any exceptions?
I recall that Bolger wrote of one of
his 'Light Dory' designs that he no
longer owned the design, and that
is why he went on to design another
similar dory.
LaRowe and Wolfard might have not
been in agreement with Bolger about
these ownership rights when they
commissioned the designs.
> I have to wonder if Bolger'sMy guess is that there never was a
> original agreement with first Elrowe
> LaRowe, then Bernie Wolfard were
> legally binding, and hence, not
> actionable. In reality, none of us
> know the whole story.
mutually agreed 'agreement'. When
LaRowe commissioned Micro, Old Shoe,
et al, and Wolfard commissioned Idaho:
Did they buy the design, or the rights
to build one boat of the design?
I think that the vast majority of
Bolger commissioned designs are for
the rights to build one boat of the
design. Are there any exceptions?
I recall that Bolger wrote of one of
his 'Light Dory' designs that he no
longer owned the design, and that
is why he went on to design another
similar dory.
LaRowe and Wolfard might have not
been in agreement with Bolger about
these ownership rights when they
commissioned the designs.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
Of late though,
> they've seen fit to follow the "bigger is better" philosophy.
> Bruce
Bruce,
Perhaps bigger is more challenging,fun and profitable?
Afterall,PCB already went as far as he could go in reducing a boat to
its absolute minimum basics,witness the likes of TORTOISE : -) and
there may be a practical limit to how many times one can re-invent
the dinghy and still survive without dying of absolute boredom.
Bigger may not be better but it sure is the stuff some dreams
are made of :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
Other than the designs sold by Payson,I
> doubt if anyone would know about PCB&F.Harold has a catalog of
sorts
> and a web presence, done for him by someone else. Bolger or
> (Altenberger) could do the same but won't and won't let anyone else
> do it for them
Considering how long it takes to get a design done by the good
offices of PCB&Fs, I suspect that they are very much up to their ears
with work and the demand doesn't appear to be even close to slowing
down any.The last thing they would need now is a "web presence" or
any other device to further consume/interupt/disturb their time.
I am most grateful that Phil Bolger did not retire at 65 like most
and that he continues to put out remarkable designs at 70 is
something not to be taken lightly.
For what it's worth; I would be happy with a web site,done after his
passing, where his final lifetime output of designs and writings
could be properly assembled and displayed and perhaps existing plans
could then be sold through the site to off-set the cost of
maintaining it and to enrich his estate..........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I would say that PCB&F would still be well know from their exposure in MAIB,
Small Craft Journal and Nautical Quarterly, to name a few.
If you saw a friend outside on a beautiful day, flying a kite he had
designed and made, would you force him back inside to draw and make more
kites? (better analogy than the hammer one).
Just my $.02
Paul
Small Craft Journal and Nautical Quarterly, to name a few.
If you saw a friend outside on a beautiful day, flying a kite he had
designed and made, would you force him back inside to draw and make more
kites? (better analogy than the hammer one).
Just my $.02
Paul
--- bgbeck55 wrote:
to Canada. The alleged 'rip off' amounts
to the royalty on plans sales, which I
guess might total 10% of an average of
$150 per plan = $15. The breakeven costs
hiring an 'international' copyright lawyer
would certainly exceed any settlement by
a large factor.
Any redress through the courts could be
a moral victory and a 'cash flow' disaster.
If I were in their shoes, I would feel
ripped off, and I would complain loudly,
but I wouldn't spend thousands of dollars
seeking 'redress' in the courts.
I too, hope for a catalog, if for nothing
more than dream fodder. In the meantime,
I keep checking the mailbox for the next
issue of MAIB, which is like a catalog
in serial form!
> They have redress throughNow, I understand, CSB/CSD has moved
> the courts, and
> have failed to use them.
to Canada. The alleged 'rip off' amounts
to the royalty on plans sales, which I
guess might total 10% of an average of
$150 per plan = $15. The breakeven costs
hiring an 'international' copyright lawyer
would certainly exceed any settlement by
a large factor.
Any redress through the courts could be
a moral victory and a 'cash flow' disaster.
If I were in their shoes, I would feel
ripped off, and I would complain loudly,
but I wouldn't spend thousands of dollars
seeking 'redress' in the courts.
I too, hope for a catalog, if for nothing
more than dream fodder. In the meantime,
I keep checking the mailbox for the next
issue of MAIB, which is like a catalog
in serial form!
Bruce, I too would love to have a comprehensive catalog, or Web site, of
Bolger's designs, but I fail to see how not having one makes getting ripped
off okay. Can you kindly explain that to me? And was the Web site a
"promise" or an idea? I have written letters to PCB&F on a couple of
occasions and their replies were both fast and informative.
FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: bgbeck55 [mailto:bgbeck55@...]
If they don't want get out a catalog of what the have designed,
then they should stop whining about being ripped off by CSD/CSB.
Bolger was the one who promised a catalog. That was seven years
ago.
Bolger's designs, but I fail to see how not having one makes getting ripped
off okay. Can you kindly explain that to me? And was the Web site a
"promise" or an idea? I have written letters to PCB&F on a couple of
occasions and their replies were both fast and informative.
FrankB
-----Original Message-----
From: bgbeck55 [mailto:bgbeck55@...]
If they don't want get out a catalog of what the have designed,
then they should stop whining about being ripped off by CSD/CSB.
Bolger was the one who promised a catalog. That was seven years
ago.
I would also like to see the Bolgers publish a catalog and get on-
line. Or, as another option, I would like to see Dynamite Payson
offer a few more of the Bolger designs.
A good web site can be a very effective method of communicating.
And, with a well designed site, most people could select a stock
design. It's obviously been done before by many small boat
designers.
But, if the Bolgers want to continue to do business without a web
site or catalog, that's really there decision to make. In my limited
experience, they provide good service by phone and fax.
The decision not to offer a catalog in no way justifies "ripping off"
their work. I don't know all the legalities of it, but most any 6
year old can tell the difference between right and wrong. If you
take something and don't pay for it, you are stealing. The existence
of a catalog is irrelevant.
Rob
line. Or, as another option, I would like to see Dynamite Payson
offer a few more of the Bolger designs.
A good web site can be a very effective method of communicating.
And, with a well designed site, most people could select a stock
design. It's obviously been done before by many small boat
designers.
But, if the Bolgers want to continue to do business without a web
site or catalog, that's really there decision to make. In my limited
experience, they provide good service by phone and fax.
The decision not to offer a catalog in no way justifies "ripping off"
their work. I don't know all the legalities of it, but most any 6
year old can tell the difference between right and wrong. If you
take something and don't pay for it, you are stealing. The existence
of a catalog is irrelevant.
Rob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> If they don't want get out a catalog of what the have designed,
> then they should stop whining about being ripped off by CSD/CSB.
> Bolger was the one who promised a catalog. That was seven years
> ago.
> The "marine architect" hokum makes a fine excuse,but that's all
> it is; an excuse. Boat designs are a commodity. If they aren't then
> dozens of designers are wasting their time offering plans for
> sale.Most if not all of the "Bolgers" built by the members here
> are from "stock" plans.(Micro, Seakeasy, et al)Harold Payson seems
> to get along fine with "stock" Bolger plans.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > > since PCB&F hasn't seen fit to publish
> > >...a catalog
> >
> > Perhaps the reason is that PB&F view
> > their role as 'marine architects' to
> > be more than serving up 'stock plans'.
> >
> > Rather, they want to help/advise their
> > customers choose the design that best
> > meets their needs and 'boat wish list'.
> >
> > Typically after you send them a letter
> > or Fax either you get a well considered
> > hand written letter from Phil, or
> > you get a phone call from Susanne
> > addressing your question, and seeking
> > to find out more exactly you want...
> > and making helpful suggestions of the
> > boat design that will best fit your
> > needs.
> >
> > A website or a catalog would not be
> > as effective a way to accomplish this
> > service. Maybe, boat design is not a
> > commodity? Also, don't forget that as
> > the boat construction goes along, you
> > will certainly have new questions, and
> > that buying the plans from the designer
> > entitles you to ask questions and receive
> > answers.
> >
> > After all, boats take months [or years]
> > to build and a little time spent up
> > front, choosing the right boat is a
> > very smart thing to do!
"To me, this says a lot about being a responsible business provider.
They are a living, breathing dynamic extension of the plans you are
getting and they seem to care as much as the builder that the end
product suits the buyer. In other words they provide a value-added
product after it goes out the door."
I believe they are also very much aware, and care, that their reputation is
partially based on every single boat that gets built; if the builder gets
'creative' and radically alters the plans and the the boat turns out to be a
disaster, it could inaccurately be accredited to the designer and not the
builder. If, however, they are involved more intimately in the design
selection process as well as in contact with the builder to discuss any
alterations to the original design, they may have some influence in keeping
modifications in line with the original intent and function. And, a happy
consequence of this is the continued evolution or improvement of some
designs (micro navigator, AS29, etc) and that the information and feedback
gleaned from these exchanges is also used in developing new designs (like
Tahiti). It shows their interest in meeting OUR needs and desires, and I
personally really enjoy being part of this very wholistic process. Although
I have not had any questions since beginning construction, Phil personally
answered my few questions up front when I purchased plans for my Micro. To
me it just adds to the satisfaction of building the boat, and satisfaction
is, after all, the number one reason I build boats.
Paul Lefebvre, eagerly awaiting tomorrow's forecast 50+ temps so I can glue
a few more bits on my garage-bound micro...
They are a living, breathing dynamic extension of the plans you are
getting and they seem to care as much as the builder that the end
product suits the buyer. In other words they provide a value-added
product after it goes out the door."
I believe they are also very much aware, and care, that their reputation is
partially based on every single boat that gets built; if the builder gets
'creative' and radically alters the plans and the the boat turns out to be a
disaster, it could inaccurately be accredited to the designer and not the
builder. If, however, they are involved more intimately in the design
selection process as well as in contact with the builder to discuss any
alterations to the original design, they may have some influence in keeping
modifications in line with the original intent and function. And, a happy
consequence of this is the continued evolution or improvement of some
designs (micro navigator, AS29, etc) and that the information and feedback
gleaned from these exchanges is also used in developing new designs (like
Tahiti). It shows their interest in meeting OUR needs and desires, and I
personally really enjoy being part of this very wholistic process. Although
I have not had any questions since beginning construction, Phil personally
answered my few questions up front when I purchased plans for my Micro. To
me it just adds to the satisfaction of building the boat, and satisfaction
is, after all, the number one reason I build boats.
Paul Lefebvre, eagerly awaiting tomorrow's forecast 50+ temps so I can glue
a few more bits on my garage-bound micro...
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
support service which they feel a person doesn't get when they order
from a catalogue. They would rather a person get in touch with them
so they can be assured that the boat plan they are contemplating is
actually the best one for the purpose. Also this allows them to
inform the perspective buyer of any changes or modification they have
made to the plans as well as any changes the buyer may be
contemplating.
To me, this says a lot about being a responsible business provider.
They are a living, breathing dynamic extension of the plans you are
getting and they seem to care as much as the builder that the end
product suits the buyer. In other words they provide a value-added
product after it goes out the door.
Dynamite Payson and Craig O'Donnel operate with that same sense of
responsibility from my experience.
I see very few businesses with that kind of attitude these days.
And I have already given my opinion of the CSD service. Buy at your
own risk.
Nels
> If they don't want get out a catalog of what the have designed,I tend to support PCB&F's contention that with a set of plans comes a
> then they should stop whining about being ripped off by CSD/CSB.
> Bolger was the one who promised a catalog. That was seven years
> ago.
> The "marine architect" hokum makes a fine excuse,but that's all
> it is; an excuse. Boat designs are a commodity. If they aren't then
> dozens of designers are wasting their time offering plans for
> sale.Most if not all of the "Bolgers" built by the members here
> are from "stock" plans.(Micro, Seakeasy, et al)Harold Payson seems
> to get along fine with "stock" Bolger plans.
>
> Bruce
>
support service which they feel a person doesn't get when they order
from a catalogue. They would rather a person get in touch with them
so they can be assured that the boat plan they are contemplating is
actually the best one for the purpose. Also this allows them to
inform the perspective buyer of any changes or modification they have
made to the plans as well as any changes the buyer may be
contemplating.
To me, this says a lot about being a responsible business provider.
They are a living, breathing dynamic extension of the plans you are
getting and they seem to care as much as the builder that the end
product suits the buyer. In other words they provide a value-added
product after it goes out the door.
Dynamite Payson and Craig O'Donnel operate with that same sense of
responsibility from my experience.
I see very few businesses with that kind of attitude these days.
And I have already given my opinion of the CSD service. Buy at your
own risk.
Nels
--- "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
similar to: "If the record companies
don't offer online music, I have the
right to 'borrow' online copies for
free."
Intellectual property, who owns it?
The copier or the creator?
I feel different about 'copying' from
a price-fixing monopolistic payola convicted
media-manipulating mega-corporation than from
a family run 'creative' small business.
But when I think deeper, I cannot give
good reasons.
The designs published in the early Bolger
books seem to me to grant the rights to be
built from the information sold with the book.
Though, I don't think Bolger has ever granted
the rights to 're-sell' their plans without
the payment of a royalty.
What does a lack of catalog have to do with it?
> If they don't want get out a catalogThat is a familiar sounding argument,
> of what the have designed,
> then they should stop whining
> about being ripped off by CSD/CSB.
similar to: "If the record companies
don't offer online music, I have the
right to 'borrow' online copies for
free."
Intellectual property, who owns it?
The copier or the creator?
I feel different about 'copying' from
a price-fixing monopolistic payola convicted
media-manipulating mega-corporation than from
a family run 'creative' small business.
But when I think deeper, I cannot give
good reasons.
The designs published in the early Bolger
books seem to me to grant the rights to be
built from the information sold with the book.
Though, I don't think Bolger has ever granted
the rights to 're-sell' their plans without
the payment of a royalty.
What does a lack of catalog have to do with it?
> since PCB&F hasn't seen fit to publishPerhaps the reason is that PB&F view
>...a catalog
their role as 'marine architects' to
be more than serving up 'stock plans'.
Rather, they want to help/advise their
customers choose the design that best
meets their needs and 'boat wish list'.
Typically after you send them a letter
or Fax either you get a well considered
hand written letter from Phil, or
you get a phone call from Susanne
addressing your question, and seeking
to find out more exactly you want...
and making helpful suggestions of the
boat design that will best fit your
needs.
A website or a catalog would not be
as effective a way to accomplish this
service. Maybe, boat design is not a
commodity? Also, don't forget that as
the boat construction goes along, you
will certainly have new questions, and
that buying the plans from the designer
entitles you to ask questions and receive
answers.
After all, boats take months [or years]
to build and a little time spent up
front, choosing the right boat is a
very smart thing to do!
As of a couple of months ago, PCB&F still didn't have a catalog, and they
don't take credit cards. Snail mail with a check does work well unless
you're measuring nanoseconds.
FAX gets you the availability and price of a particular set of plans.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
don't take credit cards. Snail mail with a check does work well unless
you're measuring nanoseconds.
FAX gets you the availability and price of a particular set of plans.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Common Sense Boats which site to buy from?
> As it stands the easiest access to the plans CSB isn't supposed to
> sell is CSB. Unfortunately ths state of affairs will continue until
> PCB&F join the 21st Century and have a website to sell plans. Even
> Harold Payson has a web presence. PCB&F could even allow Payson to
> sell the designs in question to alleviate their problems with CSB.
> At any rate, the fax or snail-mail way of doing things is very
> cumbersome; especially since PCB&F hasn't seen fit to publish either
> a catalog or price list of plans available. I believe they said they
> were working on one in 1995. It has never been produced.
> Bruce
It is not difficult to buy directly from the designer, especially If you
live in N. America.
The fax number for Bolger & Friends is:
1-978-282-1349
I have always gotten a prompt response, sometimes even a
voice call-back within minutes. Plans I have ordered directly from
Bolger have been received within a week rolled in a tube so
there were no folds. I don't know how CSB sends plans.
If you don't have a fax machine or a fax modem on your
computer, and must use a service or get help from a friend, be
sure to include your own phone number and address on the
page.
The mail address is:
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc. Boat Designers
P.O. Box 1209
Goucester, MA 01930, USA
Vince Chew
live in N. America.
The fax number for Bolger & Friends is:
1-978-282-1349
I have always gotten a prompt response, sometimes even a
voice call-back within minutes. Plans I have ordered directly from
Bolger have been received within a week rolled in a tube so
there were no folds. I don't know how CSB sends plans.
If you don't have a fax machine or a fax modem on your
computer, and must use a service or get help from a friend, be
sure to include your own phone number and address on the
page.
The mail address is:
Phil Bolger & Friends, Inc. Boat Designers
P.O. Box 1209
Goucester, MA 01930, USA
Vince Chew
--- "chrisbfeller" <chrisbfeller@y...> wrote:
Common Sense Designs were not making
the royalty payments to Phil Bolger
& Friends.
Depending on your ethics, this might
be considered a rip-off of the
designer's rights.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1250
Another option is to buy directly from the designer,
which has several other bonus', one being that you
can ask questions and received valuable and well
considered answers directly from the designer.
The best way to correspond with them is via FAX.
> ...Common Sense Boat plans.As of last report, Common Sense Boats/
> does anyone have an opinion
Common Sense Designs were not making
the royalty payments to Phil Bolger
& Friends.
Depending on your ethics, this might
be considered a rip-off of the
designer's rights.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1250
Another option is to buy directly from the designer,
which has several other bonus', one being that you
can ask questions and received valuable and well
considered answers directly from the designer.
The best way to correspond with them is via FAX.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "chrisbfeller" <chrisbfeller@y...>
wrote:
background. I believe Jerry Estes may be in the process of rebuilding
his original site.
It is a long story but he does not have permission to sell Bolger
plans. Only other sellers beside PCB&F are Dynamite Payson and Dave
Carnell - as far as I know. Jim Michalak also works in close
friendship with PCB&F and some of his designs are quite similar to
Bolger's.
Their sites are:
http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/
Cheers, Nels
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
> I have noticed that there are now two internet sites to buy CommonBoth are from the same place. The second one adds some more
> Sense Boat plans. does anyone have an opinion on which to buy from.
>
>http://commonsenseboats.safeshopper.com/index.htm?268
>
>http://www.common-sense-boats.com/
>
> Thanks Chris
background. I believe Jerry Estes may be in the process of rebuilding
his original site.
It is a long story but he does not have permission to sell Bolger
plans. Only other sellers beside PCB&F are Dynamite Payson and Dave
Carnell - as far as I know. Jim Michalak also works in close
friendship with PCB&F and some of his designs are quite similar to
Bolger's.
Their sites are:
http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/
Cheers, Nels
Cheers, Nels
I have noticed that there are now two internet sites to buy Common
Sense Boat plans. does anyone have an opinion on which to buy from.
http://commonsenseboats.safeshopper.com/index.htm?268
http://www.common-sense-boats.com/
Thanks Chris
Sense Boat plans. does anyone have an opinion on which to buy from.
http://commonsenseboats.safeshopper.com/index.htm?268
http://www.common-sense-boats.com/
Thanks Chris