Re: [bolger] Re: Ultralight boatbuilding.
--- Lincoln Ross wrote:
missed that, of course.
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/
Those images are only blurry viewed
in Internet Explorer. Right click,
and choose 'save as' and view them in
an graphics program of your choice.
I like Irfanview.
>. Beware of excessivelyYes, so obvious, I
> hollow curvature with
> fabric covering
missed that, of course.
> Where does the original cartoon occur?Small boat journal Vol #29
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/
Those images are only blurry viewed
in Internet Explorer. Right click,
and choose 'save as' and view them in
an graphics program of your choice.
I like Irfanview.
Yah. Epoxy doesn't stick to it worth a !@#$. I've used it for peel ply.
(Remember that when building glass boats, might be handy.) It's an
entirely different material. A lot harder to stick down than cotton or
else Steve Whitman, reknowned air racer, would still be alive! But our
boats don't go 180mph so we probably won't have that problem if we're at
all careful, and the airplane guys won't if they follow the new fangled
instructions. I suppose if you used nitrate or butyrate dope to put it
on with you could keep your plywood from checking. Anyone try this? Oh,
and check with Defender (www.defenderus.com) and you might find less of
a price difference. At least there was less of one in the past. Don't
count on much in the way of structural properties from aircraft dacron.
(Remember that when building glass boats, might be handy.) It's an
entirely different material. A lot harder to stick down than cotton or
else Steve Whitman, reknowned air racer, would still be alive! But our
boats don't go 180mph so we probably won't have that problem if we're at
all careful, and the airplane guys won't if they follow the new fangled
instructions. I suppose if you used nitrate or butyrate dope to put it
on with you could keep your plywood from checking. Anyone try this? Oh,
and check with Defender (www.defenderus.com) and you might find less of
a price difference. At least there was less of one in the past. Don't
count on much in the way of structural properties from aircraft dacron.
>Bruce wrote:
>FWIW, dacron aircraft fabric
>appears to cost about half $$$
>of equivalent weight fiberglass
>fabric. There must be some
>*gotcha* I am missing.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yt28s
>
I have been co owner of such a boat. (Monfort Cartopper 9) Plenty strong
as long as you don't hit anything, and maybe just plenty strong if it's
new (which ours wasn't). Very light. I'd suggest you look at some of the
covering material provided by a guy named Dyson, who wrote a popular
book about baidarkas. It's much heavier than the aircraft dacron, tho I
don't think it shrinks the same way. I wish that cartoon came out more
clearly. Looks gorgeous. Beware of excessively hollow curvature with
fabric covering (not sure on this hull as cartoon was blurry and I am
not sure how well my mental picture correlates with fabric properties).
Where does the original cartoon occur?
as long as you don't hit anything, and maybe just plenty strong if it's
new (which ours wasn't). Very light. I'd suggest you look at some of the
covering material provided by a guy named Dyson, who wrote a popular
book about baidarkas. It's much heavier than the aircraft dacron, tho I
don't think it shrinks the same way. I wish that cartoon came out more
clearly. Looks gorgeous. Beware of excessively hollow curvature with
fabric covering (not sure on this hull as cartoon was blurry and I am
not sure how well my mental picture correlates with fabric properties).
Where does the original cartoon occur?
>Bruce wrote:
>
>I was just daydreaming of building
>the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
>http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
>using aircraft dacron and kevlar
>roving for the sheathing like
>done by Platt Monfort with his
>'geodesic boats' Does anybody
>around here have any experience
>with that type of boat building?
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "chodges31711" <chodges@a...> wrote:
"Professional results without pain."
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:Pretty funny! Is says:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> > I believe ceconite is all you use to
> > > waterproof the dacron and pain is even optional.
> > >
> > > Nels
> >
> > Paint is optional as well:-)
>
> Look at
>
>http://www.ceconite.com
>
> for info on that system.
"Professional results without pain."
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
http://www.ceconite.com
for info on that system.
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:Look at
> I believe ceconite is all you use to
> > waterproof the dacron and pain is even optional.
> >
> > Nels
>
> Paint is optional as well:-)
http://www.ceconite.com
for info on that system.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
I believe ceconite is all you use to
> waterproof the dacron and pain is even optional.
>
> Nels
Paint is optional as well:-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
I thought you were referring to using dacron with epoxy over plywood,
instead of using fiberglass - seeing it is cheaper.
Using dacron to build a skin on frame boat is no problem as you do
not even use any expoxy, except as a glue for the wood framing and to
attach the kevlar roving. I believe ceconite is all you use to
waterproof the dacron and pain is even optional.
Nels
> --- Nels <arvent@h...> wrote:Sorry Bruce,
> > Seems to me that dacron [would float]
> The aircraft dacron fabric
> shrinks with a heat gun and
> the tension would control the
> float.
I thought you were referring to using dacron with epoxy over plywood,
instead of using fiberglass - seeing it is cheaper.
Using dacron to build a skin on frame boat is no problem as you do
not even use any expoxy, except as a glue for the wood framing and to
attach the kevlar roving. I believe ceconite is all you use to
waterproof the dacron and pain is even optional.
Nels
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
shrinks with a heat gun and
the tension would control the
float.
Building a kayak to Kotick's lines
using aircraft dacron instead of
wooden strips for planking seems
a worthwhile experiment, [as that
would be a light weight boat!], and
Bolger has written that light
weight is one of Kotick's virtues.
> Seems to me that dacron [would float]The aircraft dacron fabric
shrinks with a heat gun and
the tension would control the
float.
Building a kayak to Kotick's lines
using aircraft dacron instead of
wooden strips for planking seems
a worthwhile experiment, [as that
would be a light weight boat!], and
Bolger has written that light
weight is one of Kotick's virtues.
> > > FWIW, dacron aircraft fabricSeems to me that dacron is trickier to use than glass as it has a
> > > appears to cost about half $$$
> > > of equivalent weight fiberglass
> > > fabric. There must be some
> > > *gotcha* I am missing.
>
tendency to "float". Works great when used in female moulds or vacuum
bagging.
Nels
> > FWIW, dacron aircraft fabricFor a composite material (fiberglass/resin, steel/concrete) there has
> > appears to cost about half $$$
> > of equivalent weight fiberglass
> > fabric. There must be some
> > *gotcha* I am missing.
to be mesh of the properties. Under tension, the fiber must take the
load without stretching enough to break the resin. Some dacron
stretches a lot compared with glass; I don't know about the aircraft
fabric. (I once got a lecture from a canoe builder at a boat show on
this topic. He was annoyed that a competitor was getting a lot of
attention for using Kevlar which he felt offered no advantage when
matched with the resin he was using.)
This is mostly of concern if you are using the grp for structure. If
you are just using it as a surface coating, then it matter much less.
Other synthetic fabrics have been used for anti-abraision.
(I was going to suggest that the dacron was more vulnerable to sun
damage, but since the resin has to be protected anyway, that doesn't
seem critical.)
Peter
Maybe the treatment to get the epoxy to wet the fabric is difficult? Dacron
is pretty good for "peel-ply" use, I think.
Roger
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
is pretty good for "peel-ply" use, I think.
Roger
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Ultralight boatbuilding.
> --- "oarmandt" wrote:
> > dacron aircraft fabric
> > has given very good service.
>
> FWIW, dacron aircraft fabric
> appears to cost about half $$$
> of equivalent weight fiberglass
> fabric. There must be some
> *gotcha* I am missing.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yt28s
--- "oarmandt" wrote:
appears to cost about half $$$
of equivalent weight fiberglass
fabric. There must be some
*gotcha* I am missing.
http://tinyurl.com/yt28s
> dacron aircraft fabricFWIW, dacron aircraft fabric
> has given very good service.
appears to cost about half $$$
of equivalent weight fiberglass
fabric. There must be some
*gotcha* I am missing.
http://tinyurl.com/yt28s
The fabric was
Dope is easy to use. When you recoat an old finish it melts the old
coat a little and flows together. Patches are easy though visible.
UV is the main thing that shortens life. You can paint over dope (
my cub has Imron over dope) but you loose the ease of patching.
Charles
> sealed with butyrate dope. (Be warned, dope over varnish is not aSome fabrics like Ceconite have a 20 year life on an airplane.
> good idea.) It tightened up nicely. UV light is harmful to the
> fabric, so I have kept it in the garage usually.
Dope is easy to use. When you recoat an old finish it melts the old
coat a little and flows together. Patches are easy though visible.
UV is the main thing that shortens life. You can paint over dope (
my cub has Imron over dope) but you loose the ease of patching.
Charles
I have a sliding seat rowing shell, now 11 years and hundreds of
outings old, which is dacron aircraft fabric over a simple truss
frame. The hull is 2' beam by 15'. Building cost was maybe $300,
half of which was oarlocks and other hardware. I built it from a
picture in the launchings section of WoodenBoat not long before. This
design had no kevlar lacings.
It has given very good service. I have had to patch a couple of
leaks, but they were only weepers. I have run over plenty of logs,
turtles, alligators, etc. and have run into shore. The fabric was
sealed with butyrate dope. (Be warned, dope over varnish is not a
good idea.) It tightened up nicely. UV light is harmful to the
fabric, so I have kept it in the garage usually.
Doug
outings old, which is dacron aircraft fabric over a simple truss
frame. The hull is 2' beam by 15'. Building cost was maybe $300,
half of which was oarlocks and other hardware. I built it from a
picture in the launchings section of WoodenBoat not long before. This
design had no kevlar lacings.
It has given very good service. I have had to patch a couple of
leaks, but they were only weepers. I have run over plenty of logs,
turtles, alligators, etc. and have run into shore. The fabric was
sealed with butyrate dope. (Be warned, dope over varnish is not a
good idea.) It tightened up nicely. UV light is harmful to the
fabric, so I have kept it in the garage usually.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
> I was just daydreaming of building
> the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
>http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
> using aircraft dacron and kevlar
> roving for the sheathing like
> done by Platt Monfort with his
> 'geodesic boats' Does anybody
> around here have any experience
> with that type of boat building?
I have a sliding seat rowing shell, now 11 years and hundreds of
outings old, which is dacron aircraft fabric over a simple truss
frame. The hull is 2' beam by 15'. Building cost was maybe $300,
half of which was oarlocks and other hardware. I built it from a
picture in the launchings section of WoodenBoat not long before. This
design had no kevlar lacings.
It has given very good service. I have had to patch a couple of
leaks, but they were only weepers. I have run over plenty of logs,
turtles, alligators, etc. and have run into shore. The fabric was
sealed with butyrate dope. (Be warned, dope over varnish is not a
good idea.) It tightened up nicely. UV light is harmful to the
fabric, so I have kept it in the garage usually.
Doug
outings old, which is dacron aircraft fabric over a simple truss
frame. The hull is 2' beam by 15'. Building cost was maybe $300,
half of which was oarlocks and other hardware. I built it from a
picture in the launchings section of WoodenBoat not long before. This
design had no kevlar lacings.
It has given very good service. I have had to patch a couple of
leaks, but they were only weepers. I have run over plenty of logs,
turtles, alligators, etc. and have run into shore. The fabric was
sealed with butyrate dope. (Be warned, dope over varnish is not a
good idea.) It tightened up nicely. UV light is harmful to the
fabric, so I have kept it in the garage usually.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
> I was just daydreaming of building
> the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
>http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
> using aircraft dacron and kevlar
> roving for the sheathing like
> done by Platt Monfort with his
> 'geodesic boats' Does anybody
> around here have any experience
> with that type of boat building?
Check out Duckworks magazine. Richard Frye, a contributor, has built
a few and he has some article about them on the site.
a few and he has some article about them on the site.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
> I was just daydreaming of building
> the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
>http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
> using aircraft dacron and kevlar
> roving for the sheathing like
> done by Platt Monfort with his
> 'geodesic boats' Does anybody
> around here have any experience
> with that type of boat building?
I was just daydreaming of building
the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
using aircraft dacron and kevlar
roving for the sheathing like
done by Platt Monfort with his
'geodesic boats' Does anybody
around here have any experience
with that type of boat building?
the Bolger Cartoon rowboat
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/4.gif
using aircraft dacron and kevlar
roving for the sheathing like
done by Platt Monfort with his
'geodesic boats' Does anybody
around here have any experience
with that type of boat building?