Re: [bolger] The need for speed...
LIES LIES LIES!!!
As long as you've got at least one crew, Bolger's Light Schooner ought to
meet your need for speed. It meets most of your requirements except that
it's 23' long. As for getting upwind, well, none of these light boats are
going to be great pointers with their low tech rigs and crude foils. But you
can certainly get a thrill on a reach!
As long as you've got at least one crew, Bolger's Light Schooner ought to
meet your need for speed. It meets most of your requirements except that
it's 23' long. As for getting upwind, well, none of these light boats are
going to be great pointers with their low tech rigs and crude foils. But you
can certainly get a thrill on a reach!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan Hunter Henshall" <steve_henshall@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: [bolger] The need for speed...
> Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the moment
> adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
>
> I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
> I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
>
> Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
> be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
> but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
> consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
> store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
> requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
> bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
> as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
> gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
>
> I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
> Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
> Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed reasonably
> well.
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--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
Archaeopteryx sailboard is found in SMALL BOATS, 1973 pages 128 to
135.
Bob P.
135.
Bob P.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> Archaeopterix is supposed to be very fast. Maybe the rig's slightly
> higher than you want, but it's not extreme. I forget which book
it's in.
> An older design.
Thanks for that Peter, very interesting.
pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:> Has anybody got any pictures of this SBJ "Sandbagger"
design/cartoon by Bolger that they could put in the files/photos
section of this group?
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb3.jpg
As of the publication in July 1990, it was only a cartoon concept.
Peter (who put it on his own page due to space considerations)
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:> Has anybody got any pictures of this SBJ "Sandbagger"
design/cartoon by Bolger that they could put in the files/photos
section of this group?
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb3.jpg
As of the publication in July 1990, it was only a cartoon concept.
Peter (who put it on his own page due to space considerations)
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
I really found the concept interesting and appreciate your sharing it
with us. Fun to read that it would have been considered under
canvassed in it's day. That big long boom would be fun when going
downwind in a some big waves:-)
Cheers, Nels
> > Has anybody got any pictures of this SBJ "Sandbagger"Thanks Peter,
> design/cartoon by Bolger that they could put in the files/photos
> section of this group?
>
>
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb1.jpg
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb2.jpg
>http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb3.jpg
>
> As of the publication in July 1990, it was only a cartoon concept.
>
> Peter (who put it on his own page due to space considerations)
I really found the concept interesting and appreciate your sharing it
with us. Fun to read that it would have been considered under
canvassed in it's day. That big long boom would be fun when going
downwind in a some big waves:-)
Cheers, Nels
> Has anybody got any pictures of this SBJ "Sandbagger"design/cartoon by Bolger that they could put in the files/photos
section of this group?
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb2.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/pb_sb3.jpg
As of the publication in July 1990, it was only a cartoon concept.
Peter (who put it on his own page due to space considerations)
Archaeopterix is supposed to be very fast. Maybe the rig's slightly
higher than you want, but it's not extreme. I forget which book it's in.
An older design.
higher than you want, but it's not extreme. I forget which book it's in.
An older design.
Confession time:
When I first tossed my newly made Gypsy in the Oakland estuary for
her
maiden voyage, a liveaboard neighbor of mine walked up with an old
sailboard rig in his hands and said I could have it if it would be of
any use on my new toy.
Comparing the rig to the sail plan for the Gypsy, I was surprised to
see how similar they were.The shape and size were just about right.
The
sailboard, being an older one still used a dacron sail instead of
Mylar
like the new ones. It also came with a ready made fiberglass mast and
wishbone boom.
It fit right in and I sailed her like that for several months. One
day,
in a really stiff breeze I was hiked way out, rail under, water
splashing in the boat, trying to catch up to a Flying J , when with a
loud crack the mast snapped off where it came through the partner!
After several increasingly less than successful repair/modifications
to
the hollow fiberglass mast I finally had to toss the rig and build
the
wooden mast/sprit according to Payson's instructions. That was six
years ago and the new owner still sails it hard without mishap. I
guess
Bolger and Payson know what they were doing.
Peter
When I first tossed my newly made Gypsy in the Oakland estuary for
her
maiden voyage, a liveaboard neighbor of mine walked up with an old
sailboard rig in his hands and said I could have it if it would be of
any use on my new toy.
Comparing the rig to the sail plan for the Gypsy, I was surprised to
see how similar they were.The shape and size were just about right.
The
sailboard, being an older one still used a dacron sail instead of
Mylar
like the new ones. It also came with a ready made fiberglass mast and
wishbone boom.
It fit right in and I sailed her like that for several months. One
day,
in a really stiff breeze I was hiked way out, rail under, water
splashing in the boat, trying to catch up to a Flying J , when with a
loud crack the mast snapped off where it came through the partner!
After several increasingly less than successful repair/modifications
to
the hollow fiberglass mast I finally had to toss the rig and build
the
wooden mast/sprit according to Payson's instructions. That was six
years ago and the new owner still sails it hard without mishap. I
guess
Bolger and Payson know what they were doing.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > I always suspected that increasing the sail area twenty percent
> > or
> > so (maybe moving the mast forward a couple of inches to
compensate)
> > would really make her fly.
>
> The mast is an important component. If the mast is very flexible,
> then the top will blow off in strong winds as a sort of automatic
> fisherman's reef.
>
> When Bruce Kirby rigged his first Norwalk Island Sharpie with
> fiberglass masts, he found her stiffer than he expected for this
> reason, and changed the design by adding sail area. If he switched
to
> Al or C-fiber spars, he may have changed sailplan again, I don't
know.
>
> Peter
Bolger wrote that the Sailing Pirogue #637 [kind
of like an Eeeek!] is:
..halfway between a board boat and a sailing
kayak in performance, convenience and hazard.
That seems speedy!
of like an Eeeek!] is:
..halfway between a board boat and a sailing
kayak in performance, convenience and hazard.
That seems speedy!
> I always suspected that increasing the sail area twenty percentThe mast is an important component. If the mast is very flexible,
> or
> so (maybe moving the mast forward a couple of inches to compensate)
> would really make her fly.
then the top will blow off in strong winds as a sort of automatic
fisherman's reef.
When Bruce Kirby rigged his first Norwalk Island Sharpie with
fiberglass masts, he found her stiffer than he expected for this
reason, and changed the design by adding sail area. If he switched to
Al or C-fiber spars, he may have changed sailplan again, I don't know.
Peter
If simplicity, beach-ability and speed are your criteria, then what
about a Gypsy? You could save weight making the sides from 1/8th inch
plywood and add a few more holes in the bulkheads. I humiliated a
racing fleet of Lasers with my old Gypsy. Payson doesn't recommend
it,
but I always suspected that increasing the sail area twenty percent
or
so (maybe moving the mast forward a couple of inches to compensate)
would really make her fly. I put mine together in a long weekend, so
you can't beat her for construction times either.
I don't know if any were built, but Bolger's 19 foot "Sparkler"
design
from "30-Odd Boats" looks to be both fast and beachable as well.
Peter
about a Gypsy? You could save weight making the sides from 1/8th inch
plywood and add a few more holes in the bulkheads. I humiliated a
racing fleet of Lasers with my old Gypsy. Payson doesn't recommend
it,
but I always suspected that increasing the sail area twenty percent
or
so (maybe moving the mast forward a couple of inches to compensate)
would really make her fly. I put mine together in a long weekend, so
you can't beat her for construction times either.
I don't know if any were built, but Bolger's 19 foot "Sparkler"
design
from "30-Odd Boats" looks to be both fast and beachable as well.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stephan Hunter Henshall"
> <steve_henshall@y...> wrote:
> > Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the moment
> > adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
> >
> Hi Steve,
>
> My first choice would be COMMON SENSE SKIFF (Design #591?) which
has
> info in the files folder "Perfect Skiff". It has a solent lug rig
> with a small jib, off center board and retracting rudder blade
which
> leaves the stern clear for a 4 hp motor and it can also be rowed.
>
> It was PCB's entry in the '91 WB design contest for a boat that
> sailed, rowed and motored equally. It was the best design by far
even
> though it never won. The winning boat was not nearly as good a
> performer.
>
> Another design I really like is PIRATE RACER with plans available
> from Dynamite Payson.
>
> Cheers, Nels (Digging out from a snow storm that left 10 ft high
> snowbanks in some yards:-)
Have you considered adding hydrofoils? Getting the hull up out of the
water will certainly add a few knots!
Hope this works, if not google on "hydrofoil sailboats" for some
interesting designs.
http://tinyurl.com/2ug8k
Bruce Hector
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SunCoastRowingClub
We're getting some free publicity on Tampa Bay Chanel 10's morning
show next Monday, 16 Feb.
The bad news is they want to film live, starting at o dark 0445 hours.
Only someone as crazy as myself would agree.
Two local papers have our meetings on their online callendars, and
membership is up to twelve now, including some from Florida. Hope to
see some more rowers or rowing wanabee's at next Wednesday's meet at
the Pub Waterfront Restaurant and Lounge, 20025 Gulf Blvd, Indian
Rocks Beach, FL from 5 to 7 p.m.
water will certainly add a few knots!
Hope this works, if not google on "hydrofoil sailboats" for some
interesting designs.
http://tinyurl.com/2ug8k
Bruce Hector
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SunCoastRowingClub
We're getting some free publicity on Tampa Bay Chanel 10's morning
show next Monday, 16 Feb.
The bad news is they want to film live, starting at o dark 0445 hours.
Only someone as crazy as myself would agree.
Two local papers have our meetings on their online callendars, and
membership is up to twelve now, including some from Florida. Hope to
see some more rowers or rowing wanabee's at next Wednesday's meet at
the Pub Waterfront Restaurant and Lounge, 20025 Gulf Blvd, Indian
Rocks Beach, FL from 5 to 7 p.m.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stephan Hunter Henshall"
<steve_henshall@y...> wrote:
My first choice would be COMMON SENSE SKIFF (Design #591?) which has
info in the files folder "Perfect Skiff". It has a solent lug rig
with a small jib, off center board and retracting rudder blade which
leaves the stern clear for a 4 hp motor and it can also be rowed.
It was PCB's entry in the '91 WB design contest for a boat that
sailed, rowed and motored equally. It was the best design by far even
though it never won. The winning boat was not nearly as good a
performer.
Another design I really like is PIRATE RACER with plans available
from Dynamite Payson.
Cheers, Nels (Digging out from a snow storm that left 10 ft high
snowbanks in some yards:-)
<steve_henshall@y...> wrote:
> Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the momentHi Steve,
> adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
>
My first choice would be COMMON SENSE SKIFF (Design #591?) which has
info in the files folder "Perfect Skiff". It has a solent lug rig
with a small jib, off center board and retracting rudder blade which
leaves the stern clear for a 4 hp motor and it can also be rowed.
It was PCB's entry in the '91 WB design contest for a boat that
sailed, rowed and motored equally. It was the best design by far even
though it never won. The winning boat was not nearly as good a
performer.
Another design I really like is PIRATE RACER with plans available
from Dynamite Payson.
Cheers, Nels (Digging out from a snow storm that left 10 ft high
snowbanks in some yards:-)
Here are a couple of current designs that are somewhat similar to the
Windmill etc,
http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=AR15
http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_ace14.html
You might also look at Stuart Reid's Action Stations. This is a 13'
boat that uses a windsurfer rig and has Mini-Transat styling.
http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/BoatActionstations/Boatactionstatio
ns.html
Has anyone ever considered Bolger's Sparkler? It's a very neat
design, but I never heard of one being built. Bolger doesn't really
seem to like side-facing sailing seats. I've seen many pictures of
him sitting on the bottom of a boat (e.g. the cover picture on the
Folding Schooner). He tends to go for a little side-deck instead.
With respect to getting speed out of a flat-bottom skiff or sharpie-
like design, the comments describing the Pirate Racer are instructive
about PCB's thinking. He sets the beam as the max desireable in a
flat-bottom boat of the given length, and has a sentence or two about
the trade-off between a wide stern and a narrow one.
Peter
Windmill etc,
http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=AR15
http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_ace14.html
You might also look at Stuart Reid's Action Stations. This is a 13'
boat that uses a windsurfer rig and has Mini-Transat styling.
http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/BoatActionstations/Boatactionstatio
ns.html
Has anyone ever considered Bolger's Sparkler? It's a very neat
design, but I never heard of one being built. Bolger doesn't really
seem to like side-facing sailing seats. I've seen many pictures of
him sitting on the bottom of a boat (e.g. the cover picture on the
Folding Schooner). He tends to go for a little side-deck instead.
With respect to getting speed out of a flat-bottom skiff or sharpie-
like design, the comments describing the Pirate Racer are instructive
about PCB's thinking. He sets the beam as the max desireable in a
flat-bottom boat of the given length, and has a sentence or two about
the trade-off between a wide stern and a narrow one.
Peter
In 1994 Mike McEvoy of Battenkill Boatworks designed and built a 15'
sandbagger catboat for me named American Flyer.
This boat was modeled after the Comet, a famous 18' sandbagger from
1876
The American Flyer had a hull weight of 240 pounds , a sail area of
160 sq ft, and a centerboard over 6' long, you won't go to windward
without a big centerboard area.
The American Flyer received the Concours d'Elegance award at the
1996 Wooden Boat Show at Mystic COnn.
The American Flyer was a very fast boat under certain conditions.
In Winds under 10 mph it would sail past 30' sloops both upwind and
down wind.
It would sail faster upwind and down wind than a Marshall 22' catboat.
When the wind got to 15 mph it was a different story. You needed a
crew of two or three to hold it down.
I sold the boat as I felt it was unsuitable for sailing alone.
Find a Windmill and have fun sailing
Dave Thibodeau
sandbagger catboat for me named American Flyer.
This boat was modeled after the Comet, a famous 18' sandbagger from
1876
The American Flyer had a hull weight of 240 pounds , a sail area of
160 sq ft, and a centerboard over 6' long, you won't go to windward
without a big centerboard area.
The American Flyer received the Concours d'Elegance award at the
1996 Wooden Boat Show at Mystic COnn.
The American Flyer was a very fast boat under certain conditions.
In Winds under 10 mph it would sail past 30' sloops both upwind and
down wind.
It would sail faster upwind and down wind than a Marshall 22' catboat.
When the wind got to 15 mph it was a different story. You needed a
crew of two or three to hold it down.
I sold the boat as I felt it was unsuitable for sailing alone.
Find a Windmill and have fun sailing
Dave Thibodeau
Has anybody got any pictures of this SBJ "Sandbagger" design/cartoon by Bolger that they could put in the files/photos section of this group?
pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
in Small Boat Journal. It's possible that it never progressed past
the cartoon stage.
Harbinger was not designed to be fast, but I bet she's especially
good in light air. And, of course, very beautiful. The racing catboat
classes all trended toward hard-bilged shapes that were faster but
crankier.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
> What do you mean mini Sandbagger?No. It was designed years after Harbinger and appeared as a cartoon
> Are you referring to Bolger's 15' x 7'1" "Harbinger" catboat...
in Small Boat Journal. It's possible that it never progressed past
the cartoon stage.
Harbinger was not designed to be fast, but I bet she's especially
good in light air. And, of course, very beautiful. The racing catboat
classes all trended toward hard-bilged shapes that were faster but
crankier.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What do you mean mini Sandbagger?No. It was designed years after Harbinger and appeared as a cartoon
> Are you referring to Bolger's 15' x 7'1" "Harbinger" catboat...
in Small Boat Journal. It's possible that it never progressed past
the cartoon stage.
Harbinger was not designed to be fast, but I bet she's especially
good in light air. And, of course, very beautiful. The racing catboat
classes all trended toward hard-bilged shapes that were faster but
crankier.
Peter
> Bolger claimed that the SinglehandedSo build the daggerboard without the lead -- she'll still be a very nice
> Schooner could be competitive with the L-16, which would make
> it "fast" but the keel puts in out of the "readily beachable"
> category.
daysailer, she just won't come back up from a knockdown without being
righted Laser-style. And you could build a second one with the lead for
cruising, and make them interchangeable.
-- Sue --
(waiting for the weather to warm up so I can finish mine)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
What do you mean mini Sandbagger? Are you referring to Bolger's 15' x 7'1" "Harbinger" catboat design(Folding Schooner Book) which is based more on the New York style of Catboat that developed into the "Sandbaggers". My father has nearly finished his "Harbinger" catboat and she should be on the water within the next couple of weeks.She's a combination of traditional and modern construction. She looks absolutley authentic as a traditional boat but is built strip-planked, epoxy saturated and externally sheathed with Dynel for improved durability, strength and water tightness.Not that its absolutely necessary with a strip-planked boat, she has bent frames as if she was a carvel built boat!(Mainly for keeping her looks traditional as well as extra strength). I'll post some photos in the files section when she's launched.
Hugo Tyson, Tasmania, Australia.
pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
question, "fast as compared to what?" All boats are fast compared to
glaciers and slow compared to jets. More reasonably, a boat that is
the fastest of the 12-20 foot, centerboard/daggerboard, low aspect
rig sailboats is going to be slow compared to some deep keeled,
moveable ballast boats, and to some catamarans, either of which will
have a high aspect ratio rig.
There is also the question of whether your greed for speed requires
upwind speed, or if you can be satisfied by thrilling reaches. The
former is much more difficult.
That said, my first thought is a catamaran, say a Woods Pixie or
similar. Given your desire for an unusual rig, you might look at Jeff
Gilbert's Hot Chili.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/designs/gilbert/hotchili/hc.htm
As for monohulls, your spec leaves out the most obvious Bolger
contender, the Light Schooner. Bolger claimed that the Singlehanded
Schooner could be competitive with the L-16, which would make
it "fast" but the keel puts in out of the "readily beachable"
category. I once read a fairly convincing analysis of Uffa Fox's
attempts to sail very fast in sailing canoes. It suggested that light
weight was the key, and that the extra weight of a second crew member
did not pay off. Fox's one-man boats were always faster than his 2-
man boats.
PCB did design a mini-sandbagger. I don't remember the construction,
either stip or cold-molded I would guess. Chebacco owners have
reported very good performance off the wind. Surf is a very high
performance boat.
Clark Mills' Windmill and the Schock Pt. Jude are quite high
performance v-bottom sloops.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hugo Tyson, Tasmania, Australia.
pvanderwaart <pvanderw@...> wrote:
> Fast.Although the word 'fast' is not a comparative, the context poses the
question, "fast as compared to what?" All boats are fast compared to
glaciers and slow compared to jets. More reasonably, a boat that is
the fastest of the 12-20 foot, centerboard/daggerboard, low aspect
rig sailboats is going to be slow compared to some deep keeled,
moveable ballast boats, and to some catamarans, either of which will
have a high aspect ratio rig.
There is also the question of whether your greed for speed requires
upwind speed, or if you can be satisfied by thrilling reaches. The
former is much more difficult.
That said, my first thought is a catamaran, say a Woods Pixie or
similar. Given your desire for an unusual rig, you might look at Jeff
Gilbert's Hot Chili.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/designs/gilbert/hotchili/hc.htm
As for monohulls, your spec leaves out the most obvious Bolger
contender, the Light Schooner. Bolger claimed that the Singlehanded
Schooner could be competitive with the L-16, which would make
it "fast" but the keel puts in out of the "readily beachable"
category. I once read a fairly convincing analysis of Uffa Fox's
attempts to sail very fast in sailing canoes. It suggested that light
weight was the key, and that the extra weight of a second crew member
did not pay off. Fox's one-man boats were always faster than his 2-
man boats.
PCB did design a mini-sandbagger. I don't remember the construction,
either stip or cold-molded I would guess. Chebacco owners have
reported very good performance off the wind. Surf is a very high
performance boat.
Clark Mills' Windmill and the Schock Pt. Jude are quite high
performance v-bottom sloops.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stephan Hunter Henshall"
<steve_henshall@y...> wrote:
your expressed preferences, I would suggest the smaller of the two,
the 20'er in "Boats with an Open Mind." Easy to build, square
bottom, long skinny Bolger box, pretty good looking rudder setup,
rocketship fast. I would **NOT** suggest using the sail shown. It's
been tried by several sailors in various places and found to be hard
to control when coming about at even moderate wind strengths; for
more on this search the proa_file group for the keywords "Bolger rig"
and "AYRS rig;" John Dalziel has written up his experiences at some
length. Your two best rig choices would be a crab claw or a
Gibbons/Dierking rig. Both are low ce, simple, can be built of low
tech materials, can be cut flat and still perform well. There's a
current discussion on the proa list about various ways to speed up
the handling of the crab claw when coming about; the Gibbons is quite
fast to shunt, though it can be a handful to try it in lots of wind.
Both benefit a lot from Gary Dierking's very clever uses of bungee to
keep the mast under control, which quite transform the boat.
Both would give very good performance up to a close reach, and would
get you to windward ok, though would likely not keep up with a good
two person jib/main planing dinghy with good foils dead to weather.
Overall the boat would perform about like a Hobie 14, perhaps on a
reach more up in the class of a 16. And you know, that's fast.
And it's a monohull! All traditional proas are monohulls, they just
have the ballast in the right place <G>.
best
Kevin
<steve_henshall@y...> wrote:
> Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the momentreasonably
> adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
>
> I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
> I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
>
> Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
> be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
> but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
> consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
> store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
> requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
> bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
> as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
> gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
>
> I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
> Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
> Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed
> well.Bolger designed two proas, both of which would be quite fast. Given
>
> Any ideas of suggestions?
> Smooth sailing to all and for those of you a bit farther north than
> me I hope your weather is good.
your expressed preferences, I would suggest the smaller of the two,
the 20'er in "Boats with an Open Mind." Easy to build, square
bottom, long skinny Bolger box, pretty good looking rudder setup,
rocketship fast. I would **NOT** suggest using the sail shown. It's
been tried by several sailors in various places and found to be hard
to control when coming about at even moderate wind strengths; for
more on this search the proa_file group for the keywords "Bolger rig"
and "AYRS rig;" John Dalziel has written up his experiences at some
length. Your two best rig choices would be a crab claw or a
Gibbons/Dierking rig. Both are low ce, simple, can be built of low
tech materials, can be cut flat and still perform well. There's a
current discussion on the proa list about various ways to speed up
the handling of the crab claw when coming about; the Gibbons is quite
fast to shunt, though it can be a handful to try it in lots of wind.
Both benefit a lot from Gary Dierking's very clever uses of bungee to
keep the mast under control, which quite transform the boat.
Both would give very good performance up to a close reach, and would
get you to windward ok, though would likely not keep up with a good
two person jib/main planing dinghy with good foils dead to weather.
Overall the boat would perform about like a Hobie 14, perhaps on a
reach more up in the class of a 16. And you know, that's fast.
And it's a monohull! All traditional proas are monohulls, they just
have the ballast in the right place <G>.
best
Kevin
Racing Chebacco, of course!
Daysailer version, built light, using the alternate mainsail, and the headsail. She would FLY!
Daysailer version, built light, using the alternate mainsail, and the headsail. She would FLY!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan Hunter Henshall" <steve_henshall@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: [bolger] The need for speed...
> Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the moment
> adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
>
> I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
> I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
>
> Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
> be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
> but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
> consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
> store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
> requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
> bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
> as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
> gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
>
> I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
> Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
> Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed reasonably
> well.
>
> Any ideas of suggestions?
> Smooth sailing to all and for those of you a bit farther north than
> me I hope your weather is good.
> Steve.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fast.Although the word 'fast' is not a comparative, the context poses the
question, "fast as compared to what?" All boats are fast compared to
glaciers and slow compared to jets. More reasonably, a boat that is
the fastest of the 12-20 foot, centerboard/daggerboard, low aspect
rig sailboats is going to be slow compared to some deep keeled,
moveable ballast boats, and to some catamarans, either of which will
have a high aspect ratio rig.
There is also the question of whether your greed for speed requires
upwind speed, or if you can be satisfied by thrilling reaches. The
former is much more difficult.
That said, my first thought is a catamaran, say a Woods Pixie or
similar. Given your desire for an unusual rig, you might look at Jeff
Gilbert's Hot Chili.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/designs/gilbert/hotchili/hc.htm
As for monohulls, your spec leaves out the most obvious Bolger
contender, the Light Schooner. Bolger claimed that the Singlehanded
Schooner could be competitive with the L-16, which would make
it "fast" but the keel puts in out of the "readily beachable"
category. I once read a fairly convincing analysis of Uffa Fox's
attempts to sail very fast in sailing canoes. It suggested that light
weight was the key, and that the extra weight of a second crew member
did not pay off. Fox's one-man boats were always faster than his 2-
man boats.
PCB did design a mini-sandbagger. I don't remember the construction,
either stip or cold-molded I would guess. Chebacco owners have
reported very good performance off the wind. Surf is a very high
performance boat.
Clark Mills' Windmill and the Schock Pt. Jude are quite high
performance v-bottom sloops.
Peter
As long as you've got at least one crew, Bolger's Light Schooner ought to
meet your need for speed. It meets most of your requirements except that
it's 23' long. As for getting upwind, well, none of these light boats are
going to be great pointers with their low tech rigs and crude foils. But you
can certainly get a thrill on a reach!
meet your need for speed. It meets most of your requirements except that
it's 23' long. As for getting upwind, well, none of these light boats are
going to be great pointers with their low tech rigs and crude foils. But you
can certainly get a thrill on a reach!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan Hunter Henshall" <steve_henshall@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: [bolger] The need for speed...
> Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the moment
> adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
>
> I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
> I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
>
> Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
> be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
> but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
> consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
> store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
> requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
> bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
> as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
> gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
>
> I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
> Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
> Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed reasonably
> well.
Still having a good time with my Featherwind and at the moment
adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed reasonably
well.
Any ideas of suggestions?
Smooth sailing to all and for those of you a bit farther north than
me I hope your weather is good.
Steve.
adding flotation and building a new stronger weighted leeboard.
I's time to consider boat number two. We all do this don't we???
I'm looking for suggestions with, loosly, the following criteria.
Fast. 12 to 20 feet in length that is beachable, shoal draft, Can
be built using ply, copper nails, and glue. Monohul is preffered
but I'd consider a catamaran if need be. Speed is definetly my main
consideration at this time. I would like to build from hardware
store parts and for the sailing to be simple and uncomplicated not
requireing a second person on board but I don't mind hiking out a
bit for balance. Any sail rig is OK but I prefer lower sails such
as sprit or lug. Ketch with a jib would be OK or even lateen or
gaff rigged. Leeboard, centerboard or swing keel is OK.
I know all of you have your own requirements when you sail, and
Featherwind is pretty fast but what are the real speedsters of the
Bolger line? I'd even consider a schooner if she pointed reasonably
well.
Any ideas of suggestions?
Smooth sailing to all and for those of you a bit farther north than
me I hope your weather is good.
Steve.