Re: Another type of joint
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
Neat photo of a zigzag joint but boy-o-boy it sure looks more
involved then a straight forward scarf joint,especially in that high
grade super-duper Luan :-)
Sadly,I have spent a lifetime perfecting my cutting technique
to the point where I can now say,with a straight face,"My,that sure
is a straight cut I've cut there!".It will take me another lifetime
to re-learn how to cut all zigzaggy and I'm apparently coming back in
the next life as a hair on the left testicle of a house
fly.......hmmmmmmmmm it's gonna be tough wrapping one of my teeny
weeny fingers around the on switch of my saw,I figure :-)
As for the Bolger Rants.........a great new storage vault for
pictures once we've loaded up B1,B2 and B3! Just hope no one visits
the "links" section,especially Le Mouton Noir de Kingston,aka,Le
Baron,Bos'un Bruce,"Thirsty" et al........golly there is enough stuff
there to start a moralizing rant like no tomorrow!
Sincerely,
Peter"straight cuttin'" Lenihan
> Yeah, Bolger_rants is a low-impact subscription, all right...Hi David,
Neat photo of a zigzag joint but boy-o-boy it sure looks more
involved then a straight forward scarf joint,especially in that high
grade super-duper Luan :-)
Sadly,I have spent a lifetime perfecting my cutting technique
to the point where I can now say,with a straight face,"My,that sure
is a straight cut I've cut there!".It will take me another lifetime
to re-learn how to cut all zigzaggy and I'm apparently coming back in
the next life as a hair on the left testicle of a house
fly.......hmmmmmmmmm it's gonna be tough wrapping one of my teeny
weeny fingers around the on switch of my saw,I figure :-)
As for the Bolger Rants.........a great new storage vault for
pictures once we've loaded up B1,B2 and B3! Just hope no one visits
the "links" section,especially Le Mouton Noir de Kingston,aka,Le
Baron,Bos'un Bruce,"Thirsty" et al........golly there is enough stuff
there to start a moralizing rant like no tomorrow!
Sincerely,
Peter"straight cuttin'" Lenihan
A friend of mine managed to make pirated copies of the Flounder Bay joint
using a router. He doesn't trust the joints well enough to use them without
a layer of fiberglass on each side, whether he made them or Flounder Bay...
using a router. He doesn't trust the joints well enough to use them without
a layer of fiberglass on each side, whether he made them or Flounder Bay...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:59:08 -0500, David "Jagged edge" Romasco wrote:
> Sorry, guys; close but no cigar.
>
> The joint Vince is showing has too many fingers. There's (IMHO) a sweet
> spot between too many and too few.
>
> The link Mark furnished shows a somewhat intricate jigsaw puzzle joint that
> I defy any amateur to build with shop tools. It has to be produced by a CNC
> cutter. I looked at this when we were exploring a simple way to join
> panels, and I believe (again, my opinion here) that this joint is somewhat
> wanting, in that full penetration of the joint by epoxy can be compromised
> when fitting the two edges together.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes.
<Henry David Thoreau>
That sounds a lot like the joints Flounder Bay Boat Lumber in Anacortes
uses. In their joints the "fingers" triangular, with a circular nubbin at
the apex, and of course a matching circular hole one each side of the base,
making the joint interlocking. Something like this:
O O O O
/ \ / \ / \ / \
O O O O O
Flounder Bay apparently patented their joint, and will have your hide to
upholstet their office chairs if you copy it! I hope they don't see this
ASCII artwork...
uses. In their joints the "fingers" triangular, with a circular nubbin at
the apex, and of course a matching circular hole one each side of the base,
making the joint interlocking. Something like this:
O O O O
/ \ / \ / \ / \
O O O O O
Flounder Bay apparently patented their joint, and will have your hide to
upholstet their office chairs if you copy it! I hope they don't see this
ASCII artwork...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:52:00 -0000, Doug wrote:
> I experimented with another type of joint about four years ago. It
> seems to work even better than the scarf joint and is a lot easier to
> construct. It also produces less of a stiff spot than a scarf.
>
> Basically, it is a type of finger joint. The fingers were 1.5W X 2.0
> deep and the roots and crests were radiused. These dimensions were
> optimized for 6mm ply but would probably work just fine for 1/2".
>
> I cut the pattern using a cnc mill. Satisfactory results could be
> obtained using a router and template. I later talked to a woodworker
> that said he has used this method and a router worked fine.
>
> The advantage of this joint is that all bending loads are taken
> through the joint in shear. The joint is stronger than the parent
> material if you use epoxy.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Self respect: the secure feeling that no one, as yet, is suspicious.
<H. L. Mencken>
Yeah, Bolger_rants is a low-impact subscription, all right...
We really like this joint so far. You're right, the confidence factor feels
a lot stronger when we ram the pieces together, rather than join them with a
wiping motion. We tested a bunch of lauan samples averaging around 10" in
width to destruction, as well as trying progressively narrower planks ripped
out of the bigger joints . Now, I'll be the first one to say that lauan is
variable garbage as far as structural integrity and constancy goes, but we
found that as long as we had some semblance of a vee, the plank would snap
in the wood outside the immediate joint area. When we cut the plank width
down to where we wound up with just a diagonal joint, the sample would fail
in the joint. I think the radius is a major factor in spreading the
stress.
David
_____
From: Mark [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:53 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Another type of joint
What -another group to join? At least Bolger_rants will not choke my inbox!
Your zig zag joint looks good. Pushing the pieces together end to end should
minimize the
epoxy squeeze out compared to snapping them together a la jigsaw puzzles..
Done on a
narrower plank, I'd think the fingers would be rather fragile, though. A
homebuilder might
do just as well with taped butts only.
Mark
David Romasco wrote:
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We really like this joint so far. You're right, the confidence factor feels
a lot stronger when we ram the pieces together, rather than join them with a
wiping motion. We tested a bunch of lauan samples averaging around 10" in
width to destruction, as well as trying progressively narrower planks ripped
out of the bigger joints . Now, I'll be the first one to say that lauan is
variable garbage as far as structural integrity and constancy goes, but we
found that as long as we had some semblance of a vee, the plank would snap
in the wood outside the immediate joint area. When we cut the plank width
down to where we wound up with just a diagonal joint, the sample would fail
in the joint. I think the radius is a major factor in spreading the
stress.
David
_____
From: Mark [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:53 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Another type of joint
What -another group to join? At least Bolger_rants will not choke my inbox!
Your zig zag joint looks good. Pushing the pieces together end to end should
minimize the
epoxy squeeze out compared to snapping them together a la jigsaw puzzles..
Done on a
narrower plank, I'd think the fingers would be rather fragile, though. A
homebuilder might
do just as well with taped butts only.
Mark
David Romasco wrote:
>Bolger rules!!!
> Sorry, guys; close but no cigar.
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi all;
Sorry for the late reply. We had warm weather today.
My joint was similar to Vince's sketch, though the fingers were not so
long and slender. As someone pointed out, there is an optimum. Where
this happens to be is left to the experimenter. I had considered
developing a finite element computer model but the variables are such
that trial and error would probably yield better results.
I initially considered a pattern similar to the boatkit that was
mentioned but rejected it as too complicated. Those were probably done
with a waterjet. At $140/hr these things are not practical for one-off
projects.
The simple finger joint is adequate. All that is necessary is to
balance the shear strength of the epoxy to the bending strength of the
fingers. If the fingers are too short the epoxy will fail. Too long
and you have simply done more work than necessary or wasted wood.
Longer and more slender fingers would, however, help make up for the
possibility of a poor bond. Thus, Vince's pattern, though perhaps not
optimized, would work fine and has some advantages.
Hip pocket calculations and some swag science leads me to believe that
a width of 1-1.5 inches and a depth of 2.0 inches is about right for
6mm ply.
No additional blocking is required. I covered the joint with shrink
wrap and pressed it between two heavy boards to cure. The shrink wrap
peels right off leaving a nearly finished surface.
Doug
Sorry for the late reply. We had warm weather today.
My joint was similar to Vince's sketch, though the fingers were not so
long and slender. As someone pointed out, there is an optimum. Where
this happens to be is left to the experimenter. I had considered
developing a finite element computer model but the variables are such
that trial and error would probably yield better results.
I initially considered a pattern similar to the boatkit that was
mentioned but rejected it as too complicated. Those were probably done
with a waterjet. At $140/hr these things are not practical for one-off
projects.
The simple finger joint is adequate. All that is necessary is to
balance the shear strength of the epoxy to the bending strength of the
fingers. If the fingers are too short the epoxy will fail. Too long
and you have simply done more work than necessary or wasted wood.
Longer and more slender fingers would, however, help make up for the
possibility of a poor bond. Thus, Vince's pattern, though perhaps not
optimized, would work fine and has some advantages.
Hip pocket calculations and some swag science leads me to believe that
a width of 1-1.5 inches and a depth of 2.0 inches is about right for
6mm ply.
No additional blocking is required. I covered the joint with shrink
wrap and pressed it between two heavy boards to cure. The shrink wrap
peels right off leaving a nearly finished surface.
Doug
What -another group to join? At least Bolger_rants will not choke my inbox!
Your zig zag joint looks good. Pushing the pieces together end to end should minimize the
epoxy squeeze out compared to snapping them together a la jigsaw puzzles.. Done on a
narrower plank, I'd think the fingers would be rather fragile, though. A homebuilder might
do just as well with taped butts only.
Mark
David Romasco wrote:
Your zig zag joint looks good. Pushing the pieces together end to end should minimize the
epoxy squeeze out compared to snapping them together a la jigsaw puzzles.. Done on a
narrower plank, I'd think the fingers would be rather fragile, though. A homebuilder might
do just as well with taped butts only.
Mark
David Romasco wrote:
>
> Sorry, guys; close but no cigar.
Sorry, guys; close but no cigar.
The joint Vince is showing has too many fingers. There's (IMHO) a sweet
spot between too many and too few.
The link Mark furnished shows a somewhat intricate jigsaw puzzle joint that
I defy any amateur to build with shop tools. It has to be produced by a CNC
cutter. I looked at this when we were exploring a simple way to join
panels, and I believe (again, my opinion here) that this joint is somewhat
wanting, in that full penetration of the joint by epoxy can be compromised
when fitting the two edges together.
I posted an early example of how I've been joining panels for
glued-lapstrake ply construction. You can find it in the ghost town
otherwise known as the group 'Bolger_Rants' (lots of file space, no
waiting...) under 'Zigzag finger joint'. If we were more shameless than we
already are, we'd patent it and call it the 'Quik-Zag Joint' (all rights
reserved).....
It's about 10" in width; we used lauan to make this example. The lumpy
epoxy is due to us having not figured out at that point how to squeegee the
excess out and use a stiffer plastic cover sheet.... As I mentioned
earlier, wet the edges out thoroughly with unfilled epoxy so they are
completely saturated, then push the joint edges together with some lightly
filled epoxy that COMPLETELY fills the joint and squeezes out. We then
squeegee the joint and apply stiff smooth plastic with weights on it until
the epoxy is cured. The resulting joint requires little or no sanding to
finish if you play your cards right.
How did we make the cut? We drew the line in CAD and cut it on a CNC table.
Fast-'n-flashy, but careful work with a hand-drawn and carefully cut
template, and a router with an outline bit, can produce similar results.
We've tried this joint as-is in a hull, and also tried it with a light
fiberglass tape across the joint on one side (I forget the cloth weight, but
it wasn't very heavy). Both types have held up to some hard knocks without
damage so far.
David "Jagged edge" Romasco
_____
From: Mark [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 4:06 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Another type of joint
Included here's a photo from some boat kit publicity.
http://www.flounderbay.com/boatkits.htm#Jabiru
Mark
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c22dtt9/M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroup
web/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1077483995/A=2019528/R=2/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/
jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;code=18634;dcopt=
rcl;ord=1077397595877940?> Click HereClick Here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroupweb
/S=:HM/A=2019528/rand=942255753>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The joint Vince is showing has too many fingers. There's (IMHO) a sweet
spot between too many and too few.
The link Mark furnished shows a somewhat intricate jigsaw puzzle joint that
I defy any amateur to build with shop tools. It has to be produced by a CNC
cutter. I looked at this when we were exploring a simple way to join
panels, and I believe (again, my opinion here) that this joint is somewhat
wanting, in that full penetration of the joint by epoxy can be compromised
when fitting the two edges together.
I posted an early example of how I've been joining panels for
glued-lapstrake ply construction. You can find it in the ghost town
otherwise known as the group 'Bolger_Rants' (lots of file space, no
waiting...) under 'Zigzag finger joint'. If we were more shameless than we
already are, we'd patent it and call it the 'Quik-Zag Joint' (all rights
reserved).....
It's about 10" in width; we used lauan to make this example. The lumpy
epoxy is due to us having not figured out at that point how to squeegee the
excess out and use a stiffer plastic cover sheet.... As I mentioned
earlier, wet the edges out thoroughly with unfilled epoxy so they are
completely saturated, then push the joint edges together with some lightly
filled epoxy that COMPLETELY fills the joint and squeezes out. We then
squeegee the joint and apply stiff smooth plastic with weights on it until
the epoxy is cured. The resulting joint requires little or no sanding to
finish if you play your cards right.
How did we make the cut? We drew the line in CAD and cut it on a CNC table.
Fast-'n-flashy, but careful work with a hand-drawn and carefully cut
template, and a router with an outline bit, can produce similar results.
We've tried this joint as-is in a hull, and also tried it with a light
fiberglass tape across the joint on one side (I forget the cloth weight, but
it wasn't very heavy). Both types have held up to some hard knocks without
damage so far.
David "Jagged edge" Romasco
_____
From: Mark [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 4:06 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Another type of joint
Included here's a photo from some boat kit publicity.
http://www.flounderbay.com/boatkits.htm#Jabiru
Mark
> I did a quick little sketch of what I think Doug is describing andBolger rules!!!
> posted it in my album in the Bolger <Photos> section.
>
> The album is "Vince's Dakota"
>
> Vince
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12c22dtt9/M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroup
web/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1077483995/A=2019528/R=2/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/
jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;code=18634;dcopt=
rcl;ord=1077397595877940?> Click HereClick Here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroupweb
/S=:HM/A=2019528/rand=942255753>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Included here's a photo from some boat kit publicity.
http://www.flounderbay.com/boatkits.htm#Jabiru
Mark
http://www.flounderbay.com/boatkits.htm#Jabiru
Mark
> I did a quick little sketch of what I think Doug is describing and
> posted it in my album in the Bolger <Photos> section.
>
> The album is "Vince's Dakota"
>
> Vince
I found a strange looking sailboat on the Internet, but the person that took
the photo knew nothing about it. I put two photos in the folder Bantam
Upgrade (because it was empty) at the Bolger2 site. I'll remove them in a
day or so, so as not to take up room with non-Bolger boats, but I am
wondering if anyone in the group knows anything about this boat. The tender
us a little unusual too.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/lst
FrankB
the photo knew nothing about it. I put two photos in the folder Bantam
Upgrade (because it was empty) at the Bolger2 site. I'll remove them in a
day or so, so as not to take up room with non-Bolger boats, but I am
wondering if anyone in the group knows anything about this boat. The tender
us a little unusual too.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/lst
FrankB
Bruce,
This is why you'd need to scale all dimensions down exactly 1.04166 %, so
your ship-lap Micro becomes approximately 15'4". I suppose after the first
cut it would become second nature, really.... ;-)
Actually, I agree; this is a case where the design is exactly adapted to the
specified method of construction. I'd stick with butt blocks on these
designs.
David Romasco
_____
From: Bruce Hallman [mailto:bruce@...]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:24 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: JointAbility - not really
--- timk_smith wrote:
something, it is for a good reason.
Could it be that the 1" lost in
cutting a shiplap joint costs
you an extra sheet of plywood?
Bolger often spends an amazing
amount of effort in utilizing
sheets of plywood efficiently.
For instance, the roof of Micro
Navigator cuts exactly out of
8 feet lengths of plywood.
Micro is 15'6" long because
that is what two 8' sheets
of ply bent on a curve become.
Teal uses exactly two sheets
with no scrap bigger than your
hand.
Brick uses exactly three.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmm5u3r/M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroup
web/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1077423868/A=2019528/R=2/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/
jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;code=18634;dcopt=
rcl;ord=1077337468203542?> Click HereClick Here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroupweb
/S=:HM/A=2019528/rand=404004016>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is why you'd need to scale all dimensions down exactly 1.04166 %, so
your ship-lap Micro becomes approximately 15'4". I suppose after the first
cut it would become second nature, really.... ;-)
Actually, I agree; this is a case where the design is exactly adapted to the
specified method of construction. I'd stick with butt blocks on these
designs.
David Romasco
_____
From: Bruce Hallman [mailto:bruce@...]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:24 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: JointAbility - not really
--- timk_smith wrote:
> Or would this be aUsually, if Phil Bolger specifies
> case where experimentation
> could lead to regrets?
something, it is for a good reason.
Could it be that the 1" lost in
cutting a shiplap joint costs
you an extra sheet of plywood?
Bolger often spends an amazing
amount of effort in utilizing
sheets of plywood efficiently.
For instance, the roof of Micro
Navigator cuts exactly out of
8 feet lengths of plywood.
Micro is 15'6" long because
that is what two 8' sheets
of ply bent on a curve become.
Teal uses exactly two sheets
with no scrap bigger than your
hand.
Brick uses exactly three.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cmm5u3r/M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroup
web/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1077423868/A=2019528/R=2/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/
jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;code=18634;dcopt=
rcl;ord=1077337468203542?> Click HereClick Here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=274551.4550177.5761904.1261774/D=egroupweb
/S=:HM/A=2019528/rand=404004016>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, grant corson <corson@a...>
wrote:
I did a quick little sketch of what I think Doug is describing and
posted it in my album in the Bolger <Photos> section.
The album is "Vince's Dakota"
Vince
wrote:
> Doug, could you explain this type of joint? I cant quite picture itand it
> sounds like it would be very effective, thanks,Grant,
> Grant
I did a quick little sketch of what I think Doug is describing and
posted it in my album in the Bolger <Photos> section.
The album is "Vince's Dakota"
Vince
--- timk_smith wrote:
something, it is for a good reason.
Could it be that the 1" lost in
cutting a shiplap joint costs
you an extra sheet of plywood?
Bolger often spends an amazing
amount of effort in utilizing
sheets of plywood efficiently.
For instance, the roof of Micro
Navigator cuts exactly out of
8 feet lengths of plywood.
Micro is 15'6" long because
that is what two 8' sheets
of ply bent on a curve become.
Teal uses exactly two sheets
with no scrap bigger than your
hand.
Brick uses exactly three.
> Or would this be aUsually, if Phil Bolger specifies
> case where experimentation
> could lead to regrets?
something, it is for a good reason.
Could it be that the 1" lost in
cutting a shiplap joint costs
you an extra sheet of plywood?
Bolger often spends an amazing
amount of effort in utilizing
sheets of plywood efficiently.
For instance, the roof of Micro
Navigator cuts exactly out of
8 feet lengths of plywood.
Micro is 15'6" long because
that is what two 8' sheets
of ply bent on a curve become.
Teal uses exactly two sheets
with no scrap bigger than your
hand.
Brick uses exactly three.
Doug,
Did you use any additional support such as butt joint-style backing block or epoxy tape? I like a welmade scarf joint but am not sure their necessary when there are so many ways to use a router to do the same thing. I really dislike butt joints.
Don
doug6949 <prototype@...> wrote:
Did you use any additional support such as butt joint-style backing block or epoxy tape? I like a welmade scarf joint but am not sure their necessary when there are so many ways to use a router to do the same thing. I really dislike butt joints.
Don
doug6949 <prototype@...> wrote:
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" wrote:
> Tim,
> IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair
curve',
> the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf joint
practical.
I experimented with another type of joint about four years ago. It
seems to work even better than the scarf joint and is a lot easier to
construct. It also produces less of a stiff spot than a scarf.
Basically, it is a type of finger joint. The fingers were 1.5W X 2.0
deep and the roots and crests were radiused. These dimensions were
optimized for 6mm ply but would probably work just fine for 1/2".
I cut the pattern using a cnc mill. Satisfactory results could be
obtained using a router and template. I later talked to a woodworker
that said he has used this method and a router worked fine.
The advantage of this joint is that all bending loads are taken
through the joint in shear. The joint is stronger than the parent
material if you use epoxy.
Doug
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Doug, could you explain this type of joint? I cant quite picture it and it
sounds like it would be very effective, thanks,
Grant
on 2/20/04 7:49 PM, doug6949 atprototype@...wrote:
sounds like it would be very effective, thanks,
Grant
on 2/20/04 7:49 PM, doug6949 atprototype@...wrote:
> David;
> Your technique is identical to mine. Thanks for bringing up the point
> about saturating the end grain.
>
> I tendered the notion of amassing my fortune selling aluminum patterns
> made on my cnc mill. Then I found out that simple luann templates work
> just as well.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
David;
Your technique is identical to mine. Thanks for bringing up the point
about saturating the end grain.
I tendered the notion of amassing my fortune selling aluminum patterns
made on my cnc mill. Then I found out that simple luann templates work
just as well.
Doug
Your technique is identical to mine. Thanks for bringing up the point
about saturating the end grain.
I tendered the notion of amassing my fortune selling aluminum patterns
made on my cnc mill. Then I found out that simple luann templates work
just as well.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
the long edges. The panels for the hull sides are joined on the short
edges. Plans call for Payson-type butt joints hollowed and glassed, not
with backing blocks. But it seems to me that ship-lap joints would be
quicker and neater. Do you think they'd be strong enough for the hull
sides, which will get a layer of glass cloth anyway? Or would this be a
case where experimentation could lead to regrets?
--Tim.
>Bruce, you're right, it's the roof and (double) bottom that are joined on
> Which panels in Topaz are joined on
> their 8-foot edges? If you mean
> the roof and the bottom, the
> 'strong direction" of the plywood
> is across the boat, and a lap joint
> in the plywood would be fine, I am
> sure. [or even butt joints with
> backing blocks.]
the long edges. The panels for the hull sides are joined on the short
edges. Plans call for Payson-type butt joints hollowed and glassed, not
with backing blocks. But it seems to me that ship-lap joints would be
quicker and neater. Do you think they'd be strong enough for the hull
sides, which will get a layer of glass cloth anyway? Or would this be a
case where experimentation could lead to regrets?
--Tim.
I'm using this sort of joint in some glued lapstrake ply construction, and
the joints are both invisible in curved panels (no hard spots) and appear to
be very strong (our test panels snapped in the wood, not in the joint area).
One important point: wet the edges out thoroughly with unfilled epoxy so
they are completely saturated, then push the joint edges together with some
lightly filled epoxy that COMPLETELY fills the joint and squeezes out. We
then squeegee the joint and apply smooth plastic with weights on it until
the epoxy is cured. The resulting joint requires little or no sanding to
finish.
David Romasco
_____
From: doug6949 [mailto:prototype@...]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 3:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Another type of joint
the joints are both invisible in curved panels (no hard spots) and appear to
be very strong (our test panels snapped in the wood, not in the joint area).
One important point: wet the edges out thoroughly with unfilled epoxy so
they are completely saturated, then push the joint edges together with some
lightly filled epoxy that COMPLETELY fills the joint and squeezes out. We
then squeegee the joint and apply smooth plastic with weights on it until
the epoxy is cured. The resulting joint requires little or no sanding to
finish.
David Romasco
_____
From: doug6949 [mailto:prototype@...]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 3:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Another type of joint
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quohog@a...> wrote:
> Tim,
> IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair
curve',
> the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf joint
practical.
I experimented with another type of joint about four years ago. It
seems to work even better than the scarf joint and is a lot easier to
construct. It also produces less of a stiff spot than a scarf.
Basically, it is a type of finger joint. The fingers were 1.5W X 2.0
deep and the roots and crests were radiused. These dimensions were
optimized for 6mm ply but would probably work just fine for 1/2".
I cut the pattern using a cnc mill. Satisfactory results could be
obtained using a router and template. I later talked to a woodworker
that said he has used this method and a router worked fine.
The advantage of this joint is that all bending loads are taken
through the joint in shear. The joint is stronger than the parent
material if you use epoxy.
Doug
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quohog@a...> wrote:
I experimented with another type of joint about four years ago. It
seems to work even better than the scarf joint and is a lot easier to
construct. It also produces less of a stiff spot than a scarf.
Basically, it is a type of finger joint. The fingers were 1.5W X 2.0
deep and the roots and crests were radiused. These dimensions were
optimized for 6mm ply but would probably work just fine for 1/2".
I cut the pattern using a cnc mill. Satisfactory results could be
obtained using a router and template. I later talked to a woodworker
that said he has used this method and a router worked fine.
The advantage of this joint is that all bending loads are taken
through the joint in shear. The joint is stronger than the parent
material if you use epoxy.
Doug
> Tim,curve',
> IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair
> the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf jointpractical.
I experimented with another type of joint about four years ago. It
seems to work even better than the scarf joint and is a lot easier to
construct. It also produces less of a stiff spot than a scarf.
Basically, it is a type of finger joint. The fingers were 1.5W X 2.0
deep and the roots and crests were radiused. These dimensions were
optimized for 6mm ply but would probably work just fine for 1/2".
I cut the pattern using a cnc mill. Satisfactory results could be
obtained using a router and template. I later talked to a woodworker
that said he has used this method and a router worked fine.
The advantage of this joint is that all bending loads are taken
through the joint in shear. The joint is stronger than the parent
material if you use epoxy.
Doug
--- timk_smith wrote:
their 8-foot edges? If you mean
the roof and the bottom, the
'strong direction" of the plywood
is across the boat, and a lap joint
in the plywood would be fine, I am
sure. [or even butt joints with
backing blocks.]
The sides of Topaz are less than
48" tall right?
I don't have Topaz plans, but I would
bet that Bolger has called for Payson
style butt joints with backing blocks
all around, not plywood scarf joints.
I think the biggest advantage of the
JointAbility is that the router bit
rotates sooooo fast that the surface
is much smoother than a saw or an
electric plane can give. Plus, the
jig ensures a straight line.
> building Topaz ... when I makeWhich panels in Topaz are joined on
> plywood panels joined
> on their 8-foot edges
their 8-foot edges? If you mean
the roof and the bottom, the
'strong direction" of the plywood
is across the boat, and a lap joint
in the plywood would be fine, I am
sure. [or even butt joints with
backing blocks.]
The sides of Topaz are less than
48" tall right?
I don't have Topaz plans, but I would
bet that Bolger has called for Payson
style butt joints with backing blocks
all around, not plywood scarf joints.
I think the biggest advantage of the
JointAbility is that the router bit
rotates sooooo fast that the surface
is much smoother than a saw or an
electric plane can give. Plus, the
jig ensures a straight line.
Ron, thanks, this is most helpful. I'm interested in this joint because I
have a curious problem, building Topaz in a long garage. The ceiling is
low enough so that when I make plywood panels joined on their 8-foot
edges, I have to walk them outside to flip them. This is a little delicate
with taped-seam butt joints, because for the first flip, they have
structural integrity only one side. So the job involves bracing, and the
neighbors, and their children, etc.
The ship-lap joint made in a clamp has some appeal, because it would
likely be strong enough at one go to avoid that complexity and at the
same time come out nice and fair. But of course most of the panels will
have to take a curve. Do you recommend against it? Do you, or other
Bolgerados, see a better way?
best,
Tim.
have a curious problem, building Topaz in a long garage. The ceiling is
low enough so that when I make plywood panels joined on their 8-foot
edges, I have to walk them outside to flip them. This is a little delicate
with taped-seam butt joints, because for the first flip, they have
structural integrity only one side. So the job involves bracing, and the
neighbors, and their children, etc.
The ship-lap joint made in a clamp has some appeal, because it would
likely be strong enough at one go to avoid that complexity and at the
same time come out nice and fair. But of course most of the panels will
have to take a curve. Do you recommend against it? Do you, or other
Bolgerados, see a better way?
best,
Tim.
>
> IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair curve',
> the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf joint practical.
> A ratio of 1 to 8 for 1/4 inch thick ply, and 1 to 12 for thicker is the
> 'accepted practical norm'. If it is simply for 'cosmetics' or making an
> un-stressed bigger sheet, the hard internal corners and 'theoretical' 1
> to 1 ratio should hold well. If you bend it, the adjacent wood has a
> high probility of fracture, and you will most likely have a 'hard spot'.
>
Tim,
Save your money. {unless you can get it the way John probably did . . .
for free}.
If it's the same 'article' that Cupp had published in Chuck's
www.Duckworksmagazine.com , it really doesn't 'make' a scarf joint. I
also read a detailed review by the manufacturer / sellers in a
professional cabinet maker / woodworker periodical. What it makes is a
simple 'Lap Joint', actually called a 'Ship Lap Joint'.
I was going to send him a 'nastygram' about the article, but as I write
for the same 'e-zine', I thought better of it !! {NOTE - smart-ass
HUMOR}. Not that there is anything wrong with the JOINT, just a lot of
money to make something simple. It's just a Rabbit. Two of them, one
reversed, are 'mated' together to form the actual *joint*. A 'Rabbit
Plane' for 'hand power', or a router with an edge guide & straight bit,
will do the job 'on-site'. One of those 8-feet long Aluminum 'Straight
Edges' {about $20}with a piece of Masonite as a spacer, or an
'arrangement' of the fence & 'hold-downs' on a 'router table' {built my
own for about $60 - 40.oo for the Phenolic 'plate'}will do the job
during 'production'.
If you need the fancy Red Anodized Aluminum 'Quick Clamps' . . . $5.99
each for a 'Moby Cam' kit from www.hartvilletool.com . In fact, if they
don't have the 'device' available, you could select the individual parts
and custom-make one yourself.
IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair curve',
the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf joint practical.
A ratio of 1 to 8 for 1/4 inch thick ply, and 1 to 12 for thicker is the
'accepted practical norm'. If it is simply for 'cosmetics' or making an
un-stressed bigger sheet, the hard internal corners and 'theoretical' 1
to 1 ratio should hold well. If you bend it, the adjacent wood has a
high probility of fracture, and you will most likely have a 'hard spot'.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{PS - saying something is 'THE' anything is just *begging* for a 'bar
fight' - - like saying, "THE perfect martini is . . .", or , "THE best
Bourbon is . . .", or "The ONLY way to do that is . . ." }
Save your money. {unless you can get it the way John probably did . . .
for free}.
If it's the same 'article' that Cupp had published in Chuck's
www.Duckworksmagazine.com , it really doesn't 'make' a scarf joint. I
also read a detailed review by the manufacturer / sellers in a
professional cabinet maker / woodworker periodical. What it makes is a
simple 'Lap Joint', actually called a 'Ship Lap Joint'.
I was going to send him a 'nastygram' about the article, but as I write
for the same 'e-zine', I thought better of it !! {NOTE - smart-ass
HUMOR}. Not that there is anything wrong with the JOINT, just a lot of
money to make something simple. It's just a Rabbit. Two of them, one
reversed, are 'mated' together to form the actual *joint*. A 'Rabbit
Plane' for 'hand power', or a router with an edge guide & straight bit,
will do the job 'on-site'. One of those 8-feet long Aluminum 'Straight
Edges' {about $20}with a piece of Masonite as a spacer, or an
'arrangement' of the fence & 'hold-downs' on a 'router table' {built my
own for about $60 - 40.oo for the Phenolic 'plate'}will do the job
during 'production'.
If you need the fancy Red Anodized Aluminum 'Quick Clamps' . . . $5.99
each for a 'Moby Cam' kit from www.hartvilletool.com . In fact, if they
don't have the 'device' available, you could select the individual parts
and custom-make one yourself.
IF you want to join THIN panels and have the result form a 'fair curve',
the nature of the material calls for the longest scarf joint practical.
A ratio of 1 to 8 for 1/4 inch thick ply, and 1 to 12 for thicker is the
'accepted practical norm'. If it is simply for 'cosmetics' or making an
un-stressed bigger sheet, the hard internal corners and 'theoretical' 1
to 1 ratio should hold well. If you bend it, the adjacent wood has a
high probility of fracture, and you will most likely have a 'hard spot'.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{PS - saying something is 'THE' anything is just *begging* for a 'bar
fight' - - like saying, "THE perfect martini is . . .", or , "THE best
Bourbon is . . .", or "The ONLY way to do that is . . ." }
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:41:50 -0000
> From: "timk_smith" <timk_smith@...>
> Subject: JointAbility
>
> Has anyone looked into the JointAbility tool reviewed in the Jan. 15
> issue of MAIB? Reviewer Johyn Cupp describes it as "THE wood
> jointing tool for boat builders," and positively raves about its
> utility in
> joining plywood panels.
>
> --tim smith