Re: [bolger] Re: Floatation for a teal
rob4559 wrote:
I seem to remember that someone wrote on this subject that they were
able to get bags of ping pong ball seconds from the manufacturer for a
very reasonable cost. The balls were generally deformed in some way and
couldn't be used to play with but as flotation they were quite acceptable.
It might take a little detective work to find a manufacturer but that
might be worthwhile.
Jim
>Hi Rob,
> Hal,
>
> I like the idea of the guy who planned to stuff bags of ping pong
> balls inside his floatation compartments. Net bags full of the tiny
> orbs could easily be shoved through and retrieved from most openings;
> they wouldn't trap moisture when in place and could removed for full
> ventilation during storage, or when repairs need to be made to the
> hull.
I seem to remember that someone wrote on this subject that they were
able to get bags of ping pong ball seconds from the manufacturer for a
very reasonable cost. The balls were generally deformed in some way and
couldn't be used to play with but as flotation they were quite acceptable.
It might take a little detective work to find a manufacturer but that
might be worthwhile.
Jim
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hal,
I like the idea of the guy who planned to stuff bags of ping pong
balls inside his floatation compartments. Net bags full of the tiny
orbs could easily be shoved through and retrieved from most openings;
they wouldn't trap moisture when in place and could removed for full
ventilation during storage, or when repairs need to be made to the
hull.
This idea is a bit off the wall, and expensive perhaps, but I tend to
like non traditional solutions.
Bob P.
I like the idea of the guy who planned to stuff bags of ping pong
balls inside his floatation compartments. Net bags full of the tiny
orbs could easily be shoved through and retrieved from most openings;
they wouldn't trap moisture when in place and could removed for full
ventilation during storage, or when repairs need to be made to the
hull.
This idea is a bit off the wall, and expensive perhaps, but I tend to
like non traditional solutions.
Bob P.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
> Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage again
> and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
> kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
> kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
> have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
>
> hal
Bruce wondered if you made foam in a helium atmosphere, if the foam
would be lighter than air. The foam I know about weighs between 1 and 4
lbs/ft^3. Air is about .08. So you're at least 0.9 lbs per cubic foot
too heavy.
The difference between blue and pink extruded foams is indeed, mostly
just dye, but the pink foams I've seen tend to be somewhat lighter (and
weaker) than the blue foams. (But there are grey foams, too.) I would
think any would be ok for floatation if not stressed much. I've also
noted when hot wiring that pink foam (foamular) can curl up. Not too
relevant for this use. If strength is important, you can get Plazamate
or one of the "High Load" foams, which are considerably stronger, and
only a little heavier. (between 2 and 2.5 lbs/ft^3). Any of these
extruded styrofoams are vulnerable to gasoline or solvents, which will
make them pretty much disappear. Urethane is not so vulnerable this way,
but DON'T hot wire it unless you don't need to breath.
would be lighter than air. The foam I know about weighs between 1 and 4
lbs/ft^3. Air is about .08. So you're at least 0.9 lbs per cubic foot
too heavy.
The difference between blue and pink extruded foams is indeed, mostly
just dye, but the pink foams I've seen tend to be somewhat lighter (and
weaker) than the blue foams. (But there are grey foams, too.) I would
think any would be ok for floatation if not stressed much. I've also
noted when hot wiring that pink foam (foamular) can curl up. Not too
relevant for this use. If strength is important, you can get Plazamate
or one of the "High Load" foams, which are considerably stronger, and
only a little heavier. (between 2 and 2.5 lbs/ft^3). Any of these
extruded styrofoams are vulnerable to gasoline or solvents, which will
make them pretty much disappear. Urethane is not so vulnerable this way,
but DON'T hot wire it unless you don't need to breath.
--- David Ryan wrote:
I am sure that the gas in the foam bubbles
is not 'air' but some other gas formed by
chemical reaction to the two chemicals.
For example, the gas in bread dough bubbles
is CO2 formed by chemical reactions of the yeast.
Beer too. [another beer thread]
> Did anyone ever find out the answer to Phil'sWhere did Phil Bolger ask this?
> question, re: What would happen if you allow
> the two chemicla that make foam to combine
> in a pure helium atmosphere?
I am sure that the gas in the foam bubbles
is not 'air' but some other gas formed by
chemical reaction to the two chemicals.
For example, the gas in bread dough bubbles
is CO2 formed by chemical reactions of the yeast.
Beer too. [another beer thread]
If latex balloons are any indication, the helium would vacate the
foam matrix in short order. I have noticed that the mylar balloons I
buy my daughter at the supermarket last a week, rather than the day
I'd expect from latex.
YIBB,
David
Did anyone ever finde out the answer to Phil's question, re: What
would happen if you allow the two chemicla that make foam to combine
in a pure helium atmosphere? Would you end up with lighter than air foam?
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
foam matrix in short order. I have noticed that the mylar balloons I
buy my daughter at the supermarket last a week, rather than the day
I'd expect from latex.
YIBB,
David
Did anyone ever finde out the answer to Phil's question, re: What
would happen if you allow the two chemicla that make foam to combine
in a pure helium atmosphere? Would you end up with lighter than air foam?
--
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
"Who makes the pink stuff & what's the difference?"
Corning, I think. Which may be owned by Dow now, I'm not sure.
It's OK too.
The difference between open cell foam and closed cell is the size of
the chunks than make it up.. A cheap white styrofoam cooler is the
open cell kind, so are styrofoam packing peanuts. It crunbles into
blue chees size chunks when rubbed and will absorb water.
Closed cell has a much smaller building block to it, rubbed hard,
you'll abrade away corn meal size bits. It is waterproof and harder.
Either can be any colour. That's just the dye added at the factory.
Did anyone ever finde out the answer to Phil's question, re: What
would happen if you allow the two chemicla that make foam to combine
in a pure helium atmosphere? Would you end up with lighter than air foam?
Bruce Hector
I checked out the Dow web site and found:
Exclusive Manufacturing Process
A Dow scientist working on flotation materials for the U.S. war effort discovered extruded polystyrene foam in 1941. Since then, Dow has continuously improved the special manufacturing process that gives STYROFOAM* extruded polystyrene insulation its outstanding insulating and water resistance characteristics. ...
So the blue stuff ought to be OK. Who makes the pink stuff & what's the difference?
Roger
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
Exclusive Manufacturing Process
A Dow scientist working on flotation materials for the U.S. war effort discovered extruded polystyrene foam in 1941. Since then, Dow has continuously improved the special manufacturing process that gives STYROFOAM* extruded polystyrene insulation its outstanding insulating and water resistance characteristics. ...
So the blue stuff ought to be OK. Who makes the pink stuff & what's the difference?
Roger
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <cha62759@...>
> Blue Styrofoam or the pink variety. Dow will tell you that they can't
> recommend either for flotation but that is the lawyers talking. They
> are manufacturing insulation not flotation. Blue board washes up on
> the beach here all the time and most has obviously been in the water a
> long time but still floats high. Foam is almost foolproof. An airtight
> compartment is good if you can achieve it-holing is not a great risk
> generally. You can always inflate a heavy duty garbage bag in the
> compartment as a second line of defense. The benefit of flotation is
> the relative ease of bailing a flooded boat compared to no flotation.
> Bob Chamberland
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
> > Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage again
> > and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
> > kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
> > kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
> > have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
swamping I would recommend that you have flotation wood boat or not.
You want the freeboard so that the boat can be bailed. Without the
flotation your Teal will probably be almost awash. You may be able to
rock the boat fore and aft to get a lot of the water out. With the
sail lashed to the mast you may have a hard time keeping the whole
thing upright. You may have to take the rig down. At that point with
most of the water out you should be able to get back in canoe fashion.
I didn't keep my Teal long enough to figure out this whole drill but I
was concerned enough that I didn't go out unless there were other
people out on the water or there was a stiff onshore breeze to bring
me to the beach in case of trouble. I'm not sure that Teal is as
tender as all that anyway. Start out on the nice days and when you are
familiar with the craft try it in a blow.
Bob Chamberland
> Thanks to all who responded.Hi Hal, I hope you're sailing in warm waters. With your concerns about
>
> Swamping is not just a concern, it is a certainty given
> my total lack of sailing skills.
>
> hal
swamping I would recommend that you have flotation wood boat or not.
You want the freeboard so that the boat can be bailed. Without the
flotation your Teal will probably be almost awash. You may be able to
rock the boat fore and aft to get a lot of the water out. With the
sail lashed to the mast you may have a hard time keeping the whole
thing upright. You may have to take the rig down. At that point with
most of the water out you should be able to get back in canoe fashion.
I didn't keep my Teal long enough to figure out this whole drill but I
was concerned enough that I didn't go out unless there were other
people out on the water or there was a stiff onshore breeze to bring
me to the beach in case of trouble. I'm not sure that Teal is as
tender as all that anyway. Start out on the nice days and when you are
familiar with the craft try it in a blow.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
Never let age be an excuse against having fun :-D
The rope ladder only really works on the sides of ships or other high
free board vessels.On dinks,it's a joke as your feet will push the
ladder under the bottom of the boat into a horizontal postion and you
will wish desperately that your knees bent equally well in the OTHER
direction :-)
Perhaps a better idea,since you will be sailing her,would be to
cut out one foot hole into your leeboard near the bottom and use the
top of the leeboard for a handhold.Granted,this may also require you
to first rig some sort of device to offset your weight all on one
side while you attempt to re-board.I would be inclined to use an
oar,lashed athwartship,with a life-preserver secured to the outboard
end of the oar.This may just give enough resistance to allow you to
smartly regain the interior of your Teal if you do not dilly dally
too long looking around to see if anyone is watching.......
In fact,a couple of U-bolts large enough to take the loom of one
oar,permanently installed on each side of the boat(through the mast
partner?) would make re-boarding rather un-dramatic. If anyone askes
about them,you don't have to tell them what they are REALLY for :-)
The single foot hole through the lower end of the leeboard won't
have that bad an effect on the boats performance and may even inprove
the boards effectiveness if there is any truth to what they say about
all those hole in Chinese Junk rudders.......!
Hope this helps or at least inspires!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> > ......how you get backHi Hal,
> > into the boat is another question :-)
>
> With my aging body this is a real concern. I have thought
> about a rope ladder over the stern, but I'm not sure how
> well that would work. I am very open to suggestions!
>
> > Clearly,the best thing is to avoid swamping,but if it is a
> > concern...
>
> Swamping is not just a concern, it is a certainty given
> my total lack of sailing skills.
>
> hal
Never let age be an excuse against having fun :-D
The rope ladder only really works on the sides of ships or other high
free board vessels.On dinks,it's a joke as your feet will push the
ladder under the bottom of the boat into a horizontal postion and you
will wish desperately that your knees bent equally well in the OTHER
direction :-)
Perhaps a better idea,since you will be sailing her,would be to
cut out one foot hole into your leeboard near the bottom and use the
top of the leeboard for a handhold.Granted,this may also require you
to first rig some sort of device to offset your weight all on one
side while you attempt to re-board.I would be inclined to use an
oar,lashed athwartship,with a life-preserver secured to the outboard
end of the oar.This may just give enough resistance to allow you to
smartly regain the interior of your Teal if you do not dilly dally
too long looking around to see if anyone is watching.......
In fact,a couple of U-bolts large enough to take the loom of one
oar,permanently installed on each side of the boat(through the mast
partner?) would make re-boarding rather un-dramatic. If anyone askes
about them,you don't have to tell them what they are REALLY for :-)
The single foot hole through the lower end of the leeboard won't
have that bad an effect on the boats performance and may even inprove
the boards effectiveness if there is any truth to what they say about
all those hole in Chinese Junk rudders.......!
Hope this helps or at least inspires!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Thanks to all who responded.
On Feb 19, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Peter Lenihan wrote:
edited for bandwidth.
> Hi Hal,
> Why do you need floatation for your Teal anyhow? Since it is
> made out of wood,it'll float even if flooded.Why not use those tiny
> pointy ends for something like dry storage...
I thought of that, but decided that for the moment I won't
need dry storage. I will, for now, use my teal only in the
summer and won't wear/take anything that can't stand getting
wet; at least until I develop some sailing skills.
> ......how you get back
> into the boat is another question :-)
With my aging body this is a real concern. I have thought
about a rope ladder over the stern, but I'm not sure how
well that would work. I am very open to suggestions!
> Clearly,the best thing is to avoid swamping,but if it is a
> concern...
Swamping is not just a concern, it is a certainty given
my total lack of sailing skills.
hal
Blue Styrofoam or the pink variety. Dow will tell you that they can't
recommend either for flotation but that is the lawyers talking. They
are manufacturing insulation not flotation. Blue board washes up on
the beach here all the time and most has obviously been in the water a
long time but still floats high. Foam is almost foolproof. An airtight
compartment is good if you can achieve it-holing is not a great risk
generally. You can always inflate a heavy duty garbage bag in the
compartment as a second line of defense. The benefit of flotation is
the relative ease of bailing a flooded boat compared to no flotation.
Bob Chamberland
recommend either for flotation but that is the lawyers talking. They
are manufacturing insulation not flotation. Blue board washes up on
the beach here all the time and most has obviously been in the water a
long time but still floats high. Foam is almost foolproof. An airtight
compartment is good if you can achieve it-holing is not a great risk
generally. You can always inflate a heavy duty garbage bag in the
compartment as a second line of defense. The benefit of flotation is
the relative ease of bailing a flooded boat compared to no flotation.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
> Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage again
> and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
> kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
> kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
> have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
>
> hal
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, hal <hal@c...> wrote:
Why do you need floatation for your Teal anyhow? Since it is
made out of wood,it'll float even if flooded.Why not use those tiny
pointy ends for something like dry storage accessable through those
round plastic inspection ports readily available in most boating
centers.
With them closed,you'll have enough trapped air to make it a bit
easier to bail out the boat after a swamping......how you get back
into the boat is another question :-)
Clearly,the best thing is to avoid swamping,but if it is a
concern,then that means there is also a very good likelihood that you
too will become soaked,hence my suggestion for dry storage areas for
your wallet,change of clothes,car and house keys etc.... and maybe
even a wee bottle of"medicine" to shake off the chill of a dumping :-)
Happy Tealing!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage againHi Hal,
> and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
> kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
> kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
> have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
>
> hal
Why do you need floatation for your Teal anyhow? Since it is
made out of wood,it'll float even if flooded.Why not use those tiny
pointy ends for something like dry storage accessable through those
round plastic inspection ports readily available in most boating
centers.
With them closed,you'll have enough trapped air to make it a bit
easier to bail out the boat after a swamping......how you get back
into the boat is another question :-)
Clearly,the best thing is to avoid swamping,but if it is a
concern,then that means there is also a very good likelihood that you
too will become soaked,hence my suggestion for dry storage areas for
your wallet,change of clothes,car and house keys etc.... and maybe
even a wee bottle of"medicine" to shake off the chill of a dumping :-)
Happy Tealing!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- hal wrote:
rigid house insulation from
my local Home Depot, and cut
it into triangles using a
Japanese pull saw [pruning saw].
I held it up off the bottom of
the boat by about 6", and
fit some 1/4" luaun plywood
covers.
I don't have photos of this
'in process', but the finished
flotation chambers are visible
in this photo:
http://hallman.org/bolger/TealTrip/DCP_0002.JPG
> Any suggestions youI bought 2" thick Styrofoam
> have about floatation for my
> teal are welcome.
rigid house insulation from
my local Home Depot, and cut
it into triangles using a
Japanese pull saw [pruning saw].
I held it up off the bottom of
the boat by about 6", and
fit some 1/4" luaun plywood
covers.
I don't have photos of this
'in process', but the finished
flotation chambers are visible
in this photo:
http://hallman.org/bolger/TealTrip/DCP_0002.JPG
on 2/19/04 11:00 AM, hal athal@...wrote:
Defender sells a pour in place two part foam, a bit expensive but will fit
odd shapes. Whatever you use be sure it is listed as closed cell, the
cheaper foam insulation soaks up water like a sponge. Why not consider air
tight compartments instead of using foam at all? You can put inspection
ports in them or even small drain plugs and not have the expense of foam.
Grant
Defender sells a pour in place two part foam, a bit expensive but will fit
odd shapes. Whatever you use be sure it is listed as closed cell, the
cheaper foam insulation soaks up water like a sponge. Why not consider air
tight compartments instead of using foam at all? You can put inspection
ports in them or even small drain plugs and not have the expense of foam.
Grant
> Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage again
> and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
> kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
> kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
> have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
>
> hal
>
>
>
>
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Ok it's warm enough to work in the garage again
and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
hal
and it's floatation time. I have heard that some
kind of foam insulation sheets will work. What
kind and where do I get them? Any suggestions you
have about floatation for my teal are welcome.
hal