Re: [bolger] Re: micro/oldshoe keel?.......Nels must tell
offer it for sale on ebay as a "project boat"
on 3/12/04 10:11 PM, Bruce Hallman atbruce@...wrote:
on 3/12/04 10:11 PM, Bruce Hallman atbruce@...wrote:
>> I do not believe we will see
>> much further
>> development of the MICRO
>> designs as PCB&F have moved
>> forward into more
>> sophisticated hull shapes
>
> ...and, fair enough, larger
> boats are probably the only
> way to make a decent living
> designing boats based on
> commission.
>
> And, FWIW, I just got back
> with my newly purchased
> $100 trailer & 18 ft
> Jet Boat. [a junker]
>
> Any advice on how to quickly,
> easily [& legally] dispose
> of a hulk of a boat?
>
> The trailer is just the right
> size for a Micro, a little rusty,
> but it can be fixed up...
> and the price was right.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> I do not believe we will see...and, fair enough, larger
> much further
> development of the MICRO
> designs as PCB&F have moved
> forward into more
> sophisticated hull shapes
boats are probably the only
way to make a decent living
designing boats based on
commission.
And, FWIW, I just got back
with my newly purchased
$100 trailer & 18 ft
Jet Boat. [a junker]
Any advice on how to quickly,
easily [& legally] dispose
of a hulk of a boat?
The trailer is just the right
size for a Micro, a little rusty,
but it can be fixed up...
and the price was right.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
Here was his response:
"There is no Navigator version of this design at present and will not
be for some time as we are fully booked up with work for the
forseeable future.
A plywood version of the Halser design might be feasable but we have
put nothing about it on paper." (I had enquired about that as well.
I think a Navigator version of LONG MICRO would not be a big stretch
based on the MICRO version, by building a scale model and modifying
it until you are happy. There is no need to change anything except
modify the the bulkheads to open the interior and raise the mast
pivot point and sail area to clear the pilothouse. It would have an
incredible amount of interior space! With a T9.9 Yamaha 4-stroke it
would be an excellent 3-season motorsailer, and short-term
liveaboard - still trailerable.
I do not believe we will see much further development of the MICRO
designs as PCB&F have moved forward into more sophisticated hull
shapes under the influence of his engineer wife. Personally I think
the design is superior for getting the most bang for the buck.
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
> I wrote to PCB&F last fall,Hi Jason,
> > making enquiries about a Nav version of LONG MICRO
> What did he say? Did either of you propose any changes not on the
> regular micro navigator.
> Jason
Here was his response:
"There is no Navigator version of this design at present and will not
be for some time as we are fully booked up with work for the
forseeable future.
A plywood version of the Halser design might be feasable but we have
put nothing about it on paper." (I had enquired about that as well.
I think a Navigator version of LONG MICRO would not be a big stretch
based on the MICRO version, by building a scale model and modifying
it until you are happy. There is no need to change anything except
modify the the bulkheads to open the interior and raise the mast
pivot point and sail area to clear the pilothouse. It would have an
incredible amount of interior space! With a T9.9 Yamaha 4-stroke it
would be an excellent 3-season motorsailer, and short-term
liveaboard - still trailerable.
I do not believe we will see much further development of the MICRO
designs as PCB&F have moved forward into more sophisticated hull
shapes under the influence of his engineer wife. Personally I think
the design is superior for getting the most bang for the buck.
Cheers, Nels
I wrote to PCB&F last fall,
regular micro navigator.
Jason
> making enquiries about a Nav version of LONG MICROWhat did he say? Did either of you propose any changes not on the
regular micro navigator.
Jason
Thanks for the advice, Peter. I'll look into the Duckworks cd.
John
Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:
John
Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, john henry <old99jh@y...> wrote:
> Peter
> How did you secure the lead ballast to the deadwood, and did you
sheath or encapsulate the lead itself?
> thanks
> John
John,
Both the deadwood and ballast keel were secured to the hull with
full length throughbolts(threaded rod) with rod going through the
notched deadwood/ballast keel joint,fore and aft. The lead was
neither sheathed nor encapsulated.The deadwood only recieved multiple
coats of epoxy sealer(Industrial Formulators of Canada S1 Epoxy
Sealer).
Since I knew before construction was started that I was going
to go with a traditional keel intallation, I also used a keelson and
went with 1/2" ply for the bottom. I would not attempt this method
without a keelson and certainly not with a 1/4" ply bottom.
DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE ran a photo essay/article on my keel
construction a few ago. I believe that all the older DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE articles are now available,through them,on CDs for a very
modest price.If you or anyone else is seriously considering doing
their Micro keel in a similar fashion, it may be worth getting a hold
of their CD since a picture is worth a thousand words and there are
lots of pictures......or at least that is what I seem to
remember.Perhaps anyone who has a copy of the relevant DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE CD can confirm this?
Besides, I would hate to bore the living daylights out of the
whole group with my attempts at drawing word pictures :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
that have already been tried and found effective.
I would also agree with Peter's assessment that the original plans
for THE MICRO series took into account the level of ship building
skill (zero) of the person who commissioned the designs and his
limited financial resources. (Retired Pastor)
The most amazing thing is that the master, never compromised the
design in order to meet those goals. Therefore using more traditional
building skills and added resourses and higher quality materials all
combine to give an even stronger and longer lasting result.
I recall Peter telling me that he was very nervous when Phil came
aboard Lestat, in that he may have considered some of his changes as
being overkill. Mr. Bolger was impressed with them all and never
missed a single detail of the construction modifications. The thing
is that Peter never made any changes to the design, but only to the
construction methods and all of them had a practical justification.
That was almost 15 years ago I think. I wrote to PCB&F last fall,
making enquiries about a Nav version of LONG MICRO and I mentioned
that I had purchsed Lestat.
Mr. Bolgers response began with these words;
"Congratulations on obtaining that extremely nice Micro. I was aboard
her one time and much admired the work."
So I think it is worth considering a level of workmanship and
investment that matches your abilities and pocket book and then try
to be consistent throughout the construction. Decide this ahead of
time and then stick with it. The last place to compromise is in the
hull construction and the spars,and perhaps the sails.
It is also noteworthy that the original set of instant boat plans
were all designed for AC grade plywood and polyester resin, yet few
builders would consider using that combo any longer.
The Man is a genius and his designs deserve good quality materials.
Once the boat is finished, you will never regret it!
Cheers, Nels
>> Also, the bottom plate on the rudderI agree with you 100% Bruce. These comprise evolutionary improvements
> is inferred to be an improvement
> because so many of PB&F's rudders
> designed after Micro #422 have
> bottom plates. Not to mention that
> putting it on during initial constrution
> was an easy task, and removing it,
> (if needed), will be easy later
that have already been tried and found effective.
I would also agree with Peter's assessment that the original plans
for THE MICRO series took into account the level of ship building
skill (zero) of the person who commissioned the designs and his
limited financial resources. (Retired Pastor)
The most amazing thing is that the master, never compromised the
design in order to meet those goals. Therefore using more traditional
building skills and added resourses and higher quality materials all
combine to give an even stronger and longer lasting result.
I recall Peter telling me that he was very nervous when Phil came
aboard Lestat, in that he may have considered some of his changes as
being overkill. Mr. Bolger was impressed with them all and never
missed a single detail of the construction modifications. The thing
is that Peter never made any changes to the design, but only to the
construction methods and all of them had a practical justification.
That was almost 15 years ago I think. I wrote to PCB&F last fall,
making enquiries about a Nav version of LONG MICRO and I mentioned
that I had purchsed Lestat.
Mr. Bolgers response began with these words;
"Congratulations on obtaining that extremely nice Micro. I was aboard
her one time and much admired the work."
So I think it is worth considering a level of workmanship and
investment that matches your abilities and pocket book and then try
to be consistent throughout the construction. Decide this ahead of
time and then stick with it. The last place to compromise is in the
hull construction and the spars,and perhaps the sails.
It is also noteworthy that the original set of instant boat plans
were all designed for AC grade plywood and polyester resin, yet few
builders would consider using that combo any longer.
The Man is a genius and his designs deserve good quality materials.
Once the boat is finished, you will never regret it!
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
Aaah yes,the good old days of lost puppyhood,where Italien
cuisine usually came in a box,a 7 course meal meant a potato and a 6-
pack of beer and my little black book was falling apart from restless
nights of flipping for hope and a dream.
Alas,those wonderful times are but pleasent memories and hard
lessons learnt.
That combination of years worth of vagabonding and the palacial
comforts expected with Windermere will surely announce the beginning
of a new leaf of lunacy out on the waters of the St.Lawrence,the
Ottawa,the Great Lakes and other bodies of that interesting watershed.
As for the soft living debauchery,it really isn't all that hard
and appears to be timed to coincide with the present softening of my
neural contections........not that there are really all that many
left :-D
I'll take it as a high compliment coming from a real outdoors
guy and wish to remind you that the last week of April is"Talk Like A
Pirate Week",again!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, almost a kept man with his Pesky Crew there to temper
things and save me from killing myself with laughter,from along the
grey wind swept shores of the St.Lawrence...........
> It was also interesting to see photos of Peter, before hedegenerated
> into his present level of debaucherous soft living:-)Nels,
>
> Cheers, Nels
Aaah yes,the good old days of lost puppyhood,where Italien
cuisine usually came in a box,a 7 course meal meant a potato and a 6-
pack of beer and my little black book was falling apart from restless
nights of flipping for hope and a dream.
Alas,those wonderful times are but pleasent memories and hard
lessons learnt.
That combination of years worth of vagabonding and the palacial
comforts expected with Windermere will surely announce the beginning
of a new leaf of lunacy out on the waters of the St.Lawrence,the
Ottawa,the Great Lakes and other bodies of that interesting watershed.
As for the soft living debauchery,it really isn't all that hard
and appears to be timed to coincide with the present softening of my
neural contections........not that there are really all that many
left :-D
I'll take it as a high compliment coming from a real outdoors
guy and wish to remind you that the last week of April is"Talk Like A
Pirate Week",again!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, almost a kept man with his Pesky Crew there to temper
things and save me from killing myself with laughter,from along the
grey wind swept shores of the St.Lawrence...........
> You mean like put an end plateI see/saw the irony. :) Though,
> on a Micro rudder and
> off-setting the
> bow openings?
>
> Nels:-)
in self defense, I reasoned
that the offset bow steps
were an improvment, and PCB
agrees.
Also, the bottom plate on the rudder
is inferred to be an improvement
because so many of PB&F's rudders
designed after Micro #422 have
bottom plates. Not to mention that
putting it on during initial constrution
was an easy task, and removing it,
(if needed), will be easy later
> <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > Perhaps it is just human nature
> > to try to improve things, but if
> > the Bolger method is good enough
> > upgrades would be wasted effort.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
bow openings?
Nels:-)
> Perhaps it is just human natureYou mean like put an end plate on a Micro rudder and off-setting the
> to try to improve things, but if
> the Bolger method is good enough
> upgrades would be wasted effort.
bow openings?
Nels:-)
--- smithriverranger wrote:
I am curious, has PB&F ever written
about this topic?
> > what is the reasonSeems like an pretty good reason!
> > to revise Bolger's design
> a vector for
> spreading invasive
> species ...
I am curious, has PB&F ever written
about this topic?
> I am curious, what is the reasonI was just asking because i thought the keel was a novelty as i have
> to revise Bolger's design details
> for the micro/oldshoe fin keel?
never sailed a boat with a free flooding keel before. However, as i
have work as a river ranger and a wildlife tech i am very aware of
the ramification this type of keel(just like a water ballasted
whitwater raft) can present as a vector for spreading invasive
species and pathogens from one water body to the next. Such as zebra
mussels(clogs up everything n.america has no natural predators),
whirling disease(infects trout wipes them out by screwing up their
central Nervious system)....including the endangered
cuthroats....serious problem in CO, MT, ID, WY and other places),
giant salviania (an aquatic fern from south america that is causing
havic in th the sw and mid south), newzealand snails(outcompeat
other aquatic invertibrates and can become 80% of the river's
invertibrate biomass.......most fish including trout cannot digest
them and therefore starve for lack of any other food source) and
there are many others. People don't realize how much of an impact
they can have by not doing something as simple as flushing their
lower unit on their outboard or not cleaning out their ballast
tanks. Some of these critters can live for weeks inside a damp dark
space, such as a flooding keel.......plenty of time to trailer a
boat from say AZ to FL.
Jason Stancil
I am curious, what is the reason
to revise Bolger's design details
for the micro/oldshoe fin keel?
Is it that the Bolger design is
inadaquate? Are there any instances
of Bolger design failing? Micro
has been around for 20 years now,
plenty of time for any defect in
the plans to surface.
Perhaps it is just human nature
to try to improve things, but if
the Bolger method is good enough
upgrades would be wasted effort.
to revise Bolger's design details
for the micro/oldshoe fin keel?
Is it that the Bolger design is
inadaquate? Are there any instances
of Bolger design failing? Micro
has been around for 20 years now,
plenty of time for any defect in
the plans to surface.
Perhaps it is just human nature
to try to improve things, but if
the Bolger method is good enough
upgrades would be wasted effort.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
Perhaps anyone who has a copy of the relevant DUCKWORKS
> MAGAZINE CD can confirm this?
> Besides, I would hate to bore the living daylights out of the
> whole group with my attempts at drawing word pictures :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
I ordered copies of the CD's and would vouch that the Lestat
articles - both building and sailing - would be of great interest to
any prospective builder. As well there are many other articles that
are of interest to most of us.
It was also interesting to see photos of Peter, before he degenerated
into his present level of debaucherous soft living:-)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
Further to the question of controlling swelling; if you go with
a solid deadwood,and build it up out of stacked 2 X 2s, then it may
be prudent to apply some hollow between each layer of 2 X 2s.
For a look at some crude sketches of my favorite"trick", check
out the files section,under Tips,Tricks etc and look at HOLLOW1 and
HOLLOW2. This method will give you nice tight AND epoxy filled seams
with out fear of starved joints.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
wrote:
> > > Peter- thanks for the info. can you go into further detail ofJason,
> the
> > > spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jason
Further to the question of controlling swelling; if you go with
a solid deadwood,and build it up out of stacked 2 X 2s, then it may
be prudent to apply some hollow between each layer of 2 X 2s.
For a look at some crude sketches of my favorite"trick", check
out the files section,under Tips,Tricks etc and look at HOLLOW1 and
HOLLOW2. This method will give you nice tight AND epoxy filled seams
with out fear of starved joints.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/How%20To/
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, john henry <old99jh@y...> wrote:
Both the deadwood and ballast keel were secured to the hull with
full length throughbolts(threaded rod) with rod going through the
notched deadwood/ballast keel joint,fore and aft. The lead was
neither sheathed nor encapsulated.The deadwood only recieved multiple
coats of epoxy sealer(Industrial Formulators of Canada S1 Epoxy
Sealer).
Since I knew before construction was started that I was going
to go with a traditional keel intallation, I also used a keelson and
went with 1/2" ply for the bottom. I would not attempt this method
without a keelson and certainly not with a 1/4" ply bottom.
DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE ran a photo essay/article on my keel
construction a few ago. I believe that all the older DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE articles are now available,through them,on CDs for a very
modest price.If you or anyone else is seriously considering doing
their Micro keel in a similar fashion, it may be worth getting a hold
of their CD since a picture is worth a thousand words and there are
lots of pictures......or at least that is what I seem to
remember.Perhaps anyone who has a copy of the relevant DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE CD can confirm this?
Besides, I would hate to bore the living daylights out of the
whole group with my attempts at drawing word pictures :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> Petersheath or encapsulate the lead itself?
> How did you secure the lead ballast to the deadwood, and did you
> thanksJohn,
> John
Both the deadwood and ballast keel were secured to the hull with
full length throughbolts(threaded rod) with rod going through the
notched deadwood/ballast keel joint,fore and aft. The lead was
neither sheathed nor encapsulated.The deadwood only recieved multiple
coats of epoxy sealer(Industrial Formulators of Canada S1 Epoxy
Sealer).
Since I knew before construction was started that I was going
to go with a traditional keel intallation, I also used a keelson and
went with 1/2" ply for the bottom. I would not attempt this method
without a keelson and certainly not with a 1/4" ply bottom.
DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE ran a photo essay/article on my keel
construction a few ago. I believe that all the older DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE articles are now available,through them,on CDs for a very
modest price.If you or anyone else is seriously considering doing
their Micro keel in a similar fashion, it may be worth getting a hold
of their CD since a picture is worth a thousand words and there are
lots of pictures......or at least that is what I seem to
remember.Perhaps anyone who has a copy of the relevant DUCKWORKS
MAGAZINE CD can confirm this?
Besides, I would hate to bore the living daylights out of the
whole group with my attempts at drawing word pictures :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger"<jasonstancil@h...>
> wrote:the
> > Peter- thanks for the info. can you go into further detail of
> > spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?contact
> > Thanks,
> > Jason
>
> Jason,
> I'm not entirely certain I understand your question.When you
> say"the spaces between the deadwood",do you mean the interface
> between hull and deadwood or ballast keel and deadwood? Both
> surfaces were heavily smeared with Sika Flex. The deadwood wasalso
> liberally saturated with epoxy.Despite the boat sitting in thewater
> for near 6 months per year(lots of time to really soak up water) Iis
> never experienced consequences of any swelling.With a boat which
> only dry sailed and spends the rest of the time sitting on atrailer
> I can't imagine the wood taking up any water in such short a timenotch
> that it is actually in the water. Beyond that,there is very little
> exposed end-grain since its' forward end is both captured by a
> in the ballast keel and well bedded and the aft end is sealed bythe
> virtue of the rudder post(not the actual turning rudder post,but
> wood which support and defines the vertical end of thedeadwood,aft).
> The forward deadwood has its' aft end captured and bedded into thenone
> ballast keel and its forward end simply sealed with epoxy.
>
> Again,your question is not clear to me and therefore all of the
> above may be not what you wanted to know.Give it another try if
> of the above makes sense to you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
Peter
How did you secure the lead ballast to the deadwood, and did you sheath or encapsulate the lead itself?
thanks
John
Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
I'm not entirely certain I understand your question.When you
say"the spaces between the deadwood",do you mean the interface
between hull and deadwood or ballast keel and deadwood? Both contact
surfaces were heavily smeared with Sika Flex. The deadwood was also
liberally saturated with epoxy.Despite the boat sitting in the water
for near 6 months per year(lots of time to really soak up water) I
never experienced consequences of any swelling.With a boat which is
only dry sailed and spends the rest of the time sitting on a trailer
I can't imagine the wood taking up any water in such short a time
that it is actually in the water. Beyond that,there is very little
exposed end-grain since its' forward end is both captured by a notch
in the ballast keel and well bedded and the aft end is sealed by
virtue of the rudder post(not the actual turning rudder post,but the
wood which support and defines the vertical end of the deadwood,aft).
The forward deadwood has its' aft end captured and bedded into the
ballast keel and its forward end simply sealed with epoxy.
Again,your question is not clear to me and therefore all of the
above may be not what you wanted to know.Give it another try if none
of the above makes sense to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How did you secure the lead ballast to the deadwood, and did you sheath or encapsulate the lead itself?
thanks
John
Peter Lenihan <lestat@...> wrote:
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> Peter- thanks for the info. can you go into further detail of theJason,
> spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?
> Thanks,
> Jason
I'm not entirely certain I understand your question.When you
say"the spaces between the deadwood",do you mean the interface
between hull and deadwood or ballast keel and deadwood? Both contact
surfaces were heavily smeared with Sika Flex. The deadwood was also
liberally saturated with epoxy.Despite the boat sitting in the water
for near 6 months per year(lots of time to really soak up water) I
never experienced consequences of any swelling.With a boat which is
only dry sailed and spends the rest of the time sitting on a trailer
I can't imagine the wood taking up any water in such short a time
that it is actually in the water. Beyond that,there is very little
exposed end-grain since its' forward end is both captured by a notch
in the ballast keel and well bedded and the aft end is sealed by
virtue of the rudder post(not the actual turning rudder post,but the
wood which support and defines the vertical end of the deadwood,aft).
The forward deadwood has its' aft end captured and bedded into the
ballast keel and its forward end simply sealed with epoxy.
Again,your question is not clear to me and therefore all of the
above may be not what you wanted to know.Give it another try if none
of the above makes sense to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
I'm not entirely certain I understand your question.When you
say"the spaces between the deadwood",do you mean the interface
between hull and deadwood or ballast keel and deadwood? Both contact
surfaces were heavily smeared with Sika Flex. The deadwood was also
liberally saturated with epoxy.Despite the boat sitting in the water
for near 6 months per year(lots of time to really soak up water) I
never experienced consequences of any swelling.With a boat which is
only dry sailed and spends the rest of the time sitting on a trailer
I can't imagine the wood taking up any water in such short a time
that it is actually in the water. Beyond that,there is very little
exposed end-grain since its' forward end is both captured by a notch
in the ballast keel and well bedded and the aft end is sealed by
virtue of the rudder post(not the actual turning rudder post,but the
wood which support and defines the vertical end of the deadwood,aft).
The forward deadwood has its' aft end captured and bedded into the
ballast keel and its forward end simply sealed with epoxy.
Again,your question is not clear to me and therefore all of the
above may be not what you wanted to know.Give it another try if none
of the above makes sense to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
wrote:
> Peter- thanks for the info. can you go into further detail of theJason,
> spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?
> Thanks,
> Jason
I'm not entirely certain I understand your question.When you
say"the spaces between the deadwood",do you mean the interface
between hull and deadwood or ballast keel and deadwood? Both contact
surfaces were heavily smeared with Sika Flex. The deadwood was also
liberally saturated with epoxy.Despite the boat sitting in the water
for near 6 months per year(lots of time to really soak up water) I
never experienced consequences of any swelling.With a boat which is
only dry sailed and spends the rest of the time sitting on a trailer
I can't imagine the wood taking up any water in such short a time
that it is actually in the water. Beyond that,there is very little
exposed end-grain since its' forward end is both captured by a notch
in the ballast keel and well bedded and the aft end is sealed by
virtue of the rudder post(not the actual turning rudder post,but the
wood which support and defines the vertical end of the deadwood,aft).
The forward deadwood has its' aft end captured and bedded into the
ballast keel and its forward end simply sealed with epoxy.
Again,your question is not clear to me and therefore all of the
above may be not what you wanted to know.Give it another try if none
of the above makes sense to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
Peter- thanks for the info. can you go into further detail of the
spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?
Thanks,
Jason
spaces between the the deadwood to control swelling?
Thanks,
Jason
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "smithriverranger"
<jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
I can only speak for the Micro keel.I built mine with full
deadwood,fore and aft of the ballast keel.Part of the reason was a
desire to expand my boatbuilding skills and the other part had to do
with a distrust for the keel assembly shown on the plans.Firmly in
mind was the beginning of the Micro with Elrow Larowe's interest in
a quick and easy to build sailboat that did not require athletes to
sail nor a lifetime to build and a budget beyond most retired"old
men". I think Bolger answered Larowe's wish list with a truly
exceptional design.
However,quick and easy were not criteria for me choosing to
build a Micro and I was prepared to build something more then just
another disposable plywood boat.
So,having said that, here are some rather random thoughts on
free-flooding VS solid deadwoods:
Once you subtract the area of the lead ballast from the profile
of the keel,you will see that the amount of solid wood required to
fill in the rest of the profile is laughingly small.Imagine,if you
will,a neat little stack of 2X2s.How many will you have to stack to
fill in the forward deadwood,3 or 4? Similarily for the aft
deadwood,how many will you have to stack,8 or 9? We aren't talking
about a full rigged ship here with massive 14" X 14" timbers all
keyed and drifted together.Your kitchen table probably has a greater
surface area then that of the deadwoods. With epoxy sealing the
whole affair,and lots of "hollow" between each joined 2 X 2
strip,swelling becomes something that only happens to your stomach
after a hearty meal and/or lots of beer :-)
The enclosed volume of water captured wihin those free-
flooding voids might add up to a full big bucket of water or
two.Certainly nothing compared to the real weight of all that lead
ballast.Both the Old Shoe and Micro sail very much upright and
getting hurled all the way over on their sides enough to expose the
full length of the keel is virtually unheard of. It can be done and
for sure may well have happened BUT I haven't come across any
reports and would imagine that other things have started to go wrong
by that stage of the game(hopefully,the prudent skipper will
reef,douse or run before the big blow hits....)
I knew in advance that I would not be trailer sailing my
Micro,prefering to keep her at a quay thoughout the
summer.However,for those trailer sailing their boats,it would appear
to me that a solid wood deadwood would be more forgiving of frequent
misunderstandings with the trailer.That is,just how much abuse can
the edges of the plywood sandwich take before water soaks into the
end grain to soften up the works?
Also,in my cruising plans,I had a few little islands I knew I
wanted to explore on a regular basis and this meant beaching,not
always on talc,thus my concerns about the plywood edges getting
ground away.........
If weight is a serious concern, and I imagine that for
trailering it is,then I would be more inclined to build a robust
solid wood deadwood and trim down on some of the lead ballast.That
way I have a worry free keel capable of
beachings,grounds,trailerings to my hearts content and perhaps a
quicker boat since I will have surrendered some of the lead ballast.
Finally,keep in mind that we are only talking about a 12' and
a 15 foot plywood sailboat boat here,neither of which will tax most
small trailers,small cars or small garages :-)
With summer quickly approaching,it's time to start building
Jason,research projects are for the dead winter months :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who some may accuse of having gone overboard with my
ex Micro but I have no regrets just great adventures to
remember,from along the glorious shores of a Spring-time
St.Lawrence.......
<jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> Been researching the free flooding ballasted keel shown on theplans
> It seems some builders have modified the keel so it's not frreknockdown
> flooding. The water would act as ballast in the event of a
> as it hopefully would help the lead right the boat before thewater
> could drain out.Jason,
> Why have some builders sealed the keel and were the hollows filled
> in with something?
> Jason Stancil
I can only speak for the Micro keel.I built mine with full
deadwood,fore and aft of the ballast keel.Part of the reason was a
desire to expand my boatbuilding skills and the other part had to do
with a distrust for the keel assembly shown on the plans.Firmly in
mind was the beginning of the Micro with Elrow Larowe's interest in
a quick and easy to build sailboat that did not require athletes to
sail nor a lifetime to build and a budget beyond most retired"old
men". I think Bolger answered Larowe's wish list with a truly
exceptional design.
However,quick and easy were not criteria for me choosing to
build a Micro and I was prepared to build something more then just
another disposable plywood boat.
So,having said that, here are some rather random thoughts on
free-flooding VS solid deadwoods:
Once you subtract the area of the lead ballast from the profile
of the keel,you will see that the amount of solid wood required to
fill in the rest of the profile is laughingly small.Imagine,if you
will,a neat little stack of 2X2s.How many will you have to stack to
fill in the forward deadwood,3 or 4? Similarily for the aft
deadwood,how many will you have to stack,8 or 9? We aren't talking
about a full rigged ship here with massive 14" X 14" timbers all
keyed and drifted together.Your kitchen table probably has a greater
surface area then that of the deadwoods. With epoxy sealing the
whole affair,and lots of "hollow" between each joined 2 X 2
strip,swelling becomes something that only happens to your stomach
after a hearty meal and/or lots of beer :-)
The enclosed volume of water captured wihin those free-
flooding voids might add up to a full big bucket of water or
two.Certainly nothing compared to the real weight of all that lead
ballast.Both the Old Shoe and Micro sail very much upright and
getting hurled all the way over on their sides enough to expose the
full length of the keel is virtually unheard of. It can be done and
for sure may well have happened BUT I haven't come across any
reports and would imagine that other things have started to go wrong
by that stage of the game(hopefully,the prudent skipper will
reef,douse or run before the big blow hits....)
I knew in advance that I would not be trailer sailing my
Micro,prefering to keep her at a quay thoughout the
summer.However,for those trailer sailing their boats,it would appear
to me that a solid wood deadwood would be more forgiving of frequent
misunderstandings with the trailer.That is,just how much abuse can
the edges of the plywood sandwich take before water soaks into the
end grain to soften up the works?
Also,in my cruising plans,I had a few little islands I knew I
wanted to explore on a regular basis and this meant beaching,not
always on talc,thus my concerns about the plywood edges getting
ground away.........
If weight is a serious concern, and I imagine that for
trailering it is,then I would be more inclined to build a robust
solid wood deadwood and trim down on some of the lead ballast.That
way I have a worry free keel capable of
beachings,grounds,trailerings to my hearts content and perhaps a
quicker boat since I will have surrendered some of the lead ballast.
Finally,keep in mind that we are only talking about a 12' and
a 15 foot plywood sailboat boat here,neither of which will tax most
small trailers,small cars or small garages :-)
With summer quickly approaching,it's time to start building
Jason,research projects are for the dead winter months :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who some may accuse of having gone overboard with my
ex Micro but I have no regrets just great adventures to
remember,from along the glorious shores of a Spring-time
St.Lawrence.......
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
.
>> The flooded chambers are there for lateral resistance,
> not really for structural strength. Plus, water is
> heavier [and cheaper] than solid wood.
>
> I think Bolger also calls it a salient keel.
>
> Some [all?] Chebacco's also have a salient keel.
My understanding is that the term "salient keel" simply means a full
length keel. Bolger says in his article about SUPERMOUSE that the
shallow hollow keel structure is "stronger than it looks." It also
acts to protect the bottom and the rudder and works very well in
sheltered waters where the fetch from the wind has not caused the
entire surface of the water to move - in which case an added
centerboard is useful.
In conversation with Peter Lenihan he mentioned that when PCB saw how
the keel was constructed and installed on Lestat (In the traditional
manner.) he was quite impressed. However it is considerably more
expensive and work intensive and is not really necessary. One of
Peter's reasons for a solid keel was the zebra mussel situation which
is an environmental concern if one is trailering the boat. This would
also be a possibly with other invasive species of plants and animals
that could be transported inadvertantely inside the keel space.
Also Bruce - you may be interested to know that LONG MICRO has an
endplate on the rudder, so I think that is a worthwhile addition to
NAVIGATOR. It will give added rudder control which might be
beneficial with the bigger house.
Cheers, Nels
I've been looking at it as a box beam with most of the strength of a solid
wood keel. (Chebacco)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
wood keel. (Chebacco)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>
> I believe that: the ballasted fin on Micro and Old
> Shoe is not technically a 'keel'.
>
<snip>
> A traditional keel, I think, is more of a structual
> backbone, which that fin isn't really.
>
> <snip>
>
> Some [all?] Chebacco's also have a salient keel.
--- smithriverranger> free flooding ballasted keel
Shoe is not technically a 'keel'. I understand that
some have opted for solid wood out of fear of rot in
the water chamber. I have no doubt that Bolger has a
good reason to go with flooded chambers versus solid
wood.
A traditional keel, I think, is more of a structual
backbone, which that fin isn't really.
In my opinion, the key structure in the fin/keel is
the
nails from the sandwiched plywood to the true keel of
the boat which is the 1 1/2" square centerline nailer.
The 'bananna' curve of the lead casting, [like with
the steel plate on Storm Petrel] give the fin a
geometry needed to resist bending it off to the sides.
The flooded chambers are there for lateral resistance,
not really for structural strength. Plus, water is
heavier [and cheaper] than solid wood.
I think Bolger also calls it a salient keel.
Some [all?] Chebacco's also have a salient keel.
> ...free flooded keel ......
> Why have some builders sealed the keel?I believe that: the ballasted fin on Micro and Old
Shoe is not technically a 'keel'. I understand that
some have opted for solid wood out of fear of rot in
the water chamber. I have no doubt that Bolger has a
good reason to go with flooded chambers versus solid
wood.
A traditional keel, I think, is more of a structual
backbone, which that fin isn't really.
In my opinion, the key structure in the fin/keel is
the
nails from the sandwiched plywood to the true keel of
the boat which is the 1 1/2" square centerline nailer.
The 'bananna' curve of the lead casting, [like with
the steel plate on Storm Petrel] give the fin a
geometry needed to resist bending it off to the sides.
The flooded chambers are there for lateral resistance,
not really for structural strength. Plus, water is
heavier [and cheaper] than solid wood.
I think Bolger also calls it a salient keel.
Some [all?] Chebacco's also have a salient keel.
Careful, Derek! You're treading perilously close to reopening that
never-ending thread on using foam ballast!
;-)
David
_____
From: Derek Waters [mailto:dgw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] micro/oldshoe keel?
Bolger has [IIRC] given the primary reason for these 'hollow' keels as being
the reduction in strain from swelling and shrinkage of such a large volume
of timber. Not that solid deadwood cannot be done of course, but it requires
more and better material and is possibly a poor idea in a trailer sailed
boat.
You may be sure that PCB has taken account of the reduction in buoyancy
implied by the hollow keel; given the tendency for folk to gather in the
cockpit and fill the stern wells with handy junk, I suspect that more often
than not a little added lift under the stern may do more good than harm...
cheers
Derek
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never-ending thread on using foam ballast!
;-)
David
_____
From: Derek Waters [mailto:dgw@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:49 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] micro/oldshoe keel?
Bolger has [IIRC] given the primary reason for these 'hollow' keels as being
the reduction in strain from swelling and shrinkage of such a large volume
of timber. Not that solid deadwood cannot be done of course, but it requires
more and better material and is possibly a poor idea in a trailer sailed
boat.
You may be sure that PCB has taken account of the reduction in buoyancy
implied by the hollow keel; given the tendency for folk to gather in the
cockpit and fill the stern wells with handy junk, I suspect that more often
than not a little added lift under the stern may do more good than harm...
cheers
Derek
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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ADVERTISEMENT
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ubleclick.net/jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;cod
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger has [IIRC] given the primary reason for these 'hollow' keels as being
the reduction in strain from swelling and shrinkage of such a large volume
of timber. Not that solid deadwood cannot be done of course, but it requires
more and better material and is possibly a poor idea in a trailer sailed
boat.
You may be sure that PCB has taken account of the reduction in buoyancy
implied by the hollow keel; given the tendency for folk to gather in the
cockpit and fill the stern wells with handy junk, I suspect that more often
than not a little added lift under the stern may do more good than harm...
cheers
Derek
the reduction in strain from swelling and shrinkage of such a large volume
of timber. Not that solid deadwood cannot be done of course, but it requires
more and better material and is possibly a poor idea in a trailer sailed
boat.
You may be sure that PCB has taken account of the reduction in buoyancy
implied by the hollow keel; given the tendency for folk to gather in the
cockpit and fill the stern wells with handy junk, I suspect that more often
than not a little added lift under the stern may do more good than harm...
cheers
Derek
The reason for the free flooding keel is cost. It's cheaper to build than a
solid wood deadwood.
In the event of a keel-airing knockdown, the water would help right the
boat, but its effect will be negligible.
The reason to make a solid deadwood is because of concern over potential rot
in places that are inaccessible to inspection. Like everything else, it's a
cost benefit analysis.
solid wood deadwood.
In the event of a keel-airing knockdown, the water would help right the
boat, but its effect will be negligible.
The reason to make a solid deadwood is because of concern over potential rot
in places that are inaccessible to inspection. Like everything else, it's a
cost benefit analysis.
----- Original Message -----
From: "smithriverranger" <jasonstancil@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:07 PM
Subject: [bolger] micro/oldshoe keel?
> Been researching the free flooding ballasted keel shown on the plans
> It seems some builders have modified the keel so it's not frre
> flooding. The water would act as ballast in the event of a knockdown
> as it hopefully would help the lead right the boat before the water
> could drain out.
> Why have some builders sealed the keel and were the hollows filled
> in with something?
> Jason Stancil
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Been researching the free flooding ballasted keel shown on the plans
It seems some builders have modified the keel so it's not frre
flooding. The water would act as ballast in the event of a knockdown
as it hopefully would help the lead right the boat before the water
could drain out.
Why have some builders sealed the keel and were the hollows filled
in with something?
Jason Stancil
It seems some builders have modified the keel so it's not frre
flooding. The water would act as ballast in the event of a knockdown
as it hopefully would help the lead right the boat before the water
could drain out.
Why have some builders sealed the keel and were the hollows filled
in with something?
Jason Stancil