Re: Lead/ Steel/Picara Bottom
I would measure the curvature and prebend the steel. Once you get
really close you can selectively heat the steel to add or subtract
bend. The steel shrinks after cooling so you heat the side you want
to shrink. Heating the outside of the bend straightens the sheet.
Heating the inside causes more curve. A weld bead will act
similiarly. Just run it perpendicularly to the direction of the
curve. Then you may have to grind it off.
really close you can selectively heat the steel to add or subtract
bend. The steel shrinks after cooling so you heat the side you want
to shrink. Heating the outside of the bend straightens the sheet.
Heating the inside causes more curve. A weld bead will act
similiarly. Just run it perpendicularly to the direction of the
curve. Then you may have to grind it off.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <sharpie3444@y...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
> wrote:
> .Have you
> > considered using perhaps a full sized plate and having this cut
to
> > match the outline of the bottom instead of using multiple narrow
> > planks?The larger plate would allow you to use fewer bolts to
hold
> > the whole thing in place.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
>
> No I have not. The bottom is about 50 sq feet X 10 lbs per sq. ft
> for 1/4 inch plate = the 500 pounds ballast needed. I have read
> that it is best to keep the ballast in the center third of a boat
> and covering the entire bottom seems to break that rule of thumb.
>
> Bending the 48 inch wide 1/4 inch plate around the curve of the
> bottom just to locate the bolt holes seems more than I want to
> tackle. I think I can bend 1/4 X 12 inch plate around the curve or
> maybe 3/8 X 12 inch. Striping 3/8 ply and 3/8 steel plate side by
> side may work. Epoxy the plywood in place and bolt the 5200 bedded
> steel in place, fill any gap between the wood and steel with 5200.
> May be hard to get a smooth bottom.
>
> I have not worked with 3 M 5200. Will it fill 1/8 to 1/4 inch
> gaps ??
> Will the 5200 hold paint?
>
> Covering the entire bottom opens up a lot of possibilites. Steel,
> copper, and lead sheets. I once though of bolting 1 X 3/8 angle
> iron crossways every 3 or 4 feet, cutting 5/8 inches holes in the
> angle iron on one inch centers and running 1/2 inch rebar fore and
> aft the length of the hull, weld the rebar in place and fill the
> matrix with ferrocement, or maybe the new plastic water proof
cement
> that is used for patching broken cement slabs. Never done much
> research or weight studies on the idea.
>
> Has anyone tried to bend a 1/4 inch X 4 foot sheet of steel around
> the bottom of a boat?
>
> David
David Davis wrote:
Steel is a lot floppier than ply.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> Has anyone tried to bend a 1/4 inch X 4 foot sheet of steel aroundI would think if you can bend the ply, you can bend the steel.
> the bottom of a boat?
Steel is a lot floppier than ply.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
.Have you
for 1/4 inch plate = the 500 pounds ballast needed. I have read
that it is best to keep the ballast in the center third of a boat
and covering the entire bottom seems to break that rule of thumb.
Bending the 48 inch wide 1/4 inch plate around the curve of the
bottom just to locate the bolt holes seems more than I want to
tackle. I think I can bend 1/4 X 12 inch plate around the curve or
maybe 3/8 X 12 inch. Striping 3/8 ply and 3/8 steel plate side by
side may work. Epoxy the plywood in place and bolt the 5200 bedded
steel in place, fill any gap between the wood and steel with 5200.
May be hard to get a smooth bottom.
I have not worked with 3 M 5200. Will it fill 1/8 to 1/4 inch
gaps ??
Will the 5200 hold paint?
Covering the entire bottom opens up a lot of possibilites. Steel,
copper, and lead sheets. I once though of bolting 1 X 3/8 angle
iron crossways every 3 or 4 feet, cutting 5/8 inches holes in the
angle iron on one inch centers and running 1/2 inch rebar fore and
aft the length of the hull, weld the rebar in place and fill the
matrix with ferrocement, or maybe the new plastic water proof cement
that is used for patching broken cement slabs. Never done much
research or weight studies on the idea.
Has anyone tried to bend a 1/4 inch X 4 foot sheet of steel around
the bottom of a boat?
David
wrote:
.Have you
> considered using perhaps a full sized plate and having this cut toNo I have not. The bottom is about 50 sq feet X 10 lbs per sq. ft
> match the outline of the bottom instead of using multiple narrow
> planks?The larger plate would allow you to use fewer bolts to hold
> the whole thing in place.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
for 1/4 inch plate = the 500 pounds ballast needed. I have read
that it is best to keep the ballast in the center third of a boat
and covering the entire bottom seems to break that rule of thumb.
Bending the 48 inch wide 1/4 inch plate around the curve of the
bottom just to locate the bolt holes seems more than I want to
tackle. I think I can bend 1/4 X 12 inch plate around the curve or
maybe 3/8 X 12 inch. Striping 3/8 ply and 3/8 steel plate side by
side may work. Epoxy the plywood in place and bolt the 5200 bedded
steel in place, fill any gap between the wood and steel with 5200.
May be hard to get a smooth bottom.
I have not worked with 3 M 5200. Will it fill 1/8 to 1/4 inch
gaps ??
Will the 5200 hold paint?
Covering the entire bottom opens up a lot of possibilites. Steel,
copper, and lead sheets. I once though of bolting 1 X 3/8 angle
iron crossways every 3 or 4 feet, cutting 5/8 inches holes in the
angle iron on one inch centers and running 1/2 inch rebar fore and
aft the length of the hull, weld the rebar in place and fill the
matrix with ferrocement, or maybe the new plastic water proof cement
that is used for patching broken cement slabs. Never done much
research or weight studies on the idea.
Has anyone tried to bend a 1/4 inch X 4 foot sheet of steel around
the bottom of a boat?
David
If you're really considering hot dip galvanizing, it would be well to check
with the various shops to see what their tank sizes are. It's certainly the
best, but there are a lot of barges around that don't bother.
Another consideration of plate size is your ability to handle a plate. Why
wrestle a 320 lb section when four 80 lb pieces would work as well.
I kind of like the idea of carriage bolts for fasteners. 3M5200 is good,
but it is forever. You might want to replace a section, sometime down the
road. Cold galvanizing compound is available for treating cut edges and
fasteners.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
with the various shops to see what their tank sizes are. It's certainly the
best, but there are a lot of barges around that don't bother.
Another consideration of plate size is your ability to handle a plate. Why
wrestle a 320 lb section when four 80 lb pieces would work as well.
I kind of like the idea of carriage bolts for fasteners. 3M5200 is good,
but it is forever. You might want to replace a section, sometime down the
road. Cold galvanizing compound is available for treating cut edges and
fasteners.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lead/ Picara Pictures
> --- Peter Lenihan wrote:
> > I'm not sure what the"correct"
> > procedure is for
> > installing steel
> > plate
>
> Neither am I, but pasted below is the
> commentary by PB&F for the steel plate
> installation on Yonder...
> ======================================
> Steel Plate Ballast: The 2" steel plate
> ballast of 4,79Olbs comes in seven sections
> to minimize problems resulting from
> expansion and contraction of steel versus ply
> across a range of temperature extremes
> between well above 100 degrees F over a
> black tarmac stored in a marina in summer
> and low 30s near a calving glacier, and much
> less than that again sitting on blocks at
> perhaps minus 10 degrees F in a northern
> storage yard in winter.
> The sections could either be galvanized
> for presumably longest life expectancy, or just
> be treated (after blasting) with a high end
> likely epoxy based steel coating. Also discuss
> with steel vendors the merits of Corten steel
> for this application. While the grounding!
> beaching effects will damage either
> galvanizing or painted on coating, the inside
> surface facing the ply bottom would of course
> be unlikely to be damaged early and would
> warrant serious attention to initial corrosion
> control.
> There will eventually be risk of
> migration of corrosion inwards from the
> outside edges of the steel, but then the relative
> longevity of 50mm substance plus 3M5200
> support should still sooth the mind. Since,
> with regular grounding out on tidal flats etc.,
> it will be impossible to keep the steel
> permanently coated and thus non corroding,
> consider her steel plate a long term wear item
> similar to ropes, sails etc. Price the options
> in your area, as steel is actually quite cheap
> and if your steel plate in the most affected
> section should need replacing a decade or two
> from now, all depending on frequency of
> grounding!beachings, location, water temps,
> and relative salinity, so be it! Inspection of
> her bottom in terms of actual corrosion will
> determine that time frame.
> But 50mm steel will take a very long
> time to thin, during which you could
> gradually, should you notice her getting
> slightly less stiff with progressive loss of steel
> weight as the rust flakes off, add a fraction of
> her overall ballast on the inside in the form
> of, you guessed it, ~mall sections of scrap steel
> plate available anywhere around the globe,
> readily secured to her framing. By the time
> you're down to half thickness, the fasteners
> look unhappy, and you suspect the 3M5200
> to be the only thing that holds things together,
> it would be time to discard the plating in favor
> of a fresh set. That should be a long time off
> though.
> Factor into your overall costs of
> galvanizing or 2 part coating not having to
> repair her wooden bottom due to grounding
> abrasion, calculating the steel as a hull bottom
> structure insurance policy, saving on
> expensive deep water overnight moorings,
> protecting her from hurricane damage/loss by
> hiding in the dryout creeks behind the barrier
> islands, etc. Also factor in not having to pour
> lots of lead!
> It seems clear that hot dip galvanizing
> might be the best solution as its general self
> healing properties seem least likely to readily
> allow corrosion creep under itself inwards
> between hull and steel!
--- Peter Lenihan wrote:
commentary by PB&F for the steel plate
installation on Yonder...
======================================
Steel Plate Ballast: The 2" steel plate
ballast of 4,79Olbs comes in seven sections
to minimize problems resulting from
expansion and contraction of steel versus ply
across a range of temperature extremes
between well above 100 degrees F over a
black tarmac stored in a marina in summer
and low 30s near a calving glacier, and much
less than that again sitting on blocks at
perhaps minus 10 degrees F in a northern
storage yard in winter.
The sections could either be galvanized
for presumably longest life expectancy, or just
be treated (after blasting) with a high end
likely epoxy based steel coating. Also discuss
with steel vendors the merits of Corten steel
for this application. While the grounding!
beaching effects will damage either
galvanizing or painted on coating, the inside
surface facing the ply bottom would of course
be unlikely to be damaged early and would
warrant serious attention to initial corrosion
control.
There will eventually be risk of
migration of corrosion inwards from the
outside edges of the steel, but then the relative
longevity of 50mm substance plus 3M5200
support should still sooth the mind. Since,
with regular grounding out on tidal flats etc.,
it will be impossible to keep the steel
permanently coated and thus non corroding,
consider her steel plate a long term wear item
similar to ropes, sails etc. Price the options
in your area, as steel is actually quite cheap
and if your steel plate in the most affected
section should need replacing a decade or two
from now, all depending on frequency of
grounding!beachings, location, water temps,
and relative salinity, so be it! Inspection of
her bottom in terms of actual corrosion will
determine that time frame.
But 50mm steel will take a very long
time to thin, during which you could
gradually, should you notice her getting
slightly less stiff with progressive loss of steel
weight as the rust flakes off, add a fraction of
her overall ballast on the inside in the form
of, you guessed it, ~mall sections of scrap steel
plate available anywhere around the globe,
readily secured to her framing. By the time
you�re down to half thickness, the fasteners
look unhappy, and you suspect the 3M5200
to be the only thing that holds things together,
it would be time to discard the plating in favor
of a fresh set. That should be a long time off
though.
Factor into your overall costs of
galvanizing or 2 part coating not having to
repair her wooden bottom due to grounding
abrasion, calculating the steel as a hull bottom
structure insurance policy, saving on
expensive deep water overnight moorings,
protecting her from hurricane damage/loss by
hiding in the dryout creeks behind the barrier
islands, etc. Also factor in not having to pour
lots of lead!
It seems clear that hot dip galvanizing
might be the best solution as its general self
healing properties seem least likely to readily
allow corrosion creep under itself inwards
between hull and steel!
> I'm not sure what the"correct"Neither am I, but pasted below is the
> procedure is for
> installing steel
> plate
commentary by PB&F for the steel plate
installation on Yonder...
======================================
Steel Plate Ballast: The 2" steel plate
ballast of 4,79Olbs comes in seven sections
to minimize problems resulting from
expansion and contraction of steel versus ply
across a range of temperature extremes
between well above 100 degrees F over a
black tarmac stored in a marina in summer
and low 30s near a calving glacier, and much
less than that again sitting on blocks at
perhaps minus 10 degrees F in a northern
storage yard in winter.
The sections could either be galvanized
for presumably longest life expectancy, or just
be treated (after blasting) with a high end
likely epoxy based steel coating. Also discuss
with steel vendors the merits of Corten steel
for this application. While the grounding!
beaching effects will damage either
galvanizing or painted on coating, the inside
surface facing the ply bottom would of course
be unlikely to be damaged early and would
warrant serious attention to initial corrosion
control.
There will eventually be risk of
migration of corrosion inwards from the
outside edges of the steel, but then the relative
longevity of 50mm substance plus 3M5200
support should still sooth the mind. Since,
with regular grounding out on tidal flats etc.,
it will be impossible to keep the steel
permanently coated and thus non corroding,
consider her steel plate a long term wear item
similar to ropes, sails etc. Price the options
in your area, as steel is actually quite cheap
and if your steel plate in the most affected
section should need replacing a decade or two
from now, all depending on frequency of
grounding!beachings, location, water temps,
and relative salinity, so be it! Inspection of
her bottom in terms of actual corrosion will
determine that time frame.
But 50mm steel will take a very long
time to thin, during which you could
gradually, should you notice her getting
slightly less stiff with progressive loss of steel
weight as the rust flakes off, add a fraction of
her overall ballast on the inside in the form
of, you guessed it, ~mall sections of scrap steel
plate available anywhere around the globe,
readily secured to her framing. By the time
you�re down to half thickness, the fasteners
look unhappy, and you suspect the 3M5200
to be the only thing that holds things together,
it would be time to discard the plating in favor
of a fresh set. That should be a long time off
though.
Factor into your overall costs of
galvanizing or 2 part coating not having to
repair her wooden bottom due to grounding
abrasion, calculating the steel as a hull bottom
structure insurance policy, saving on
expensive deep water overnight moorings,
protecting her from hurricane damage/loss by
hiding in the dryout creeks behind the barrier
islands, etc. Also factor in not having to pour
lots of lead!
It seems clear that hot dip galvanizing
might be the best solution as its general self
healing properties seem least likely to readily
allow corrosion creep under itself inwards
between hull and steel!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <sharpie3444@y...> wrote:
I'm not sure what the"correct" procedure is for installing steel
plate but I would be inclined to consider using something more
flexible then epoxy.....something like 3M5200 adhessive.....to allow
for minute movement between the two different materials.
Other then that,your sequence sounds about right.Have you
considered using perhaps a full sized plate and having this cut to
match the outline of the bottom instead of using multiple narrow
planks?The larger plate would allow you to use fewer bolts to hold
the whole thing in place.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> Cover plywood bottom with glass, cut the steel to shape,drill boltDavid,
> holes, and paint steel before bedding steel in epoxy and bolting
> through hull through the floors. The holes in the wood would be
> over sized and poured full of epoxy from the inside. Is this the
> correct procedure for installing the steel on the bottom ???
>
I'm not sure what the"correct" procedure is for installing steel
plate but I would be inclined to consider using something more
flexible then epoxy.....something like 3M5200 adhessive.....to allow
for minute movement between the two different materials.
Other then that,your sequence sounds about right.Have you
considered using perhaps a full sized plate and having this cut to
match the outline of the bottom instead of using multiple narrow
planks?The larger plate would allow you to use fewer bolts to hold
the whole thing in place.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
in the files section.
I like the ideal of some steel on the bottom. A couple pieces of
1/4 X 8 inch 10 foot long centered at the deepest part of the bottom
to the outside edges and a 1/4 X 8 inch full length down the center
of the bottom. Comments???
What is the best procedure in installing steel to the bottom. I
plan on covering the bottom with 6 oz. cloth and the chines with an
extra layer of 9 oz. tape in a couple weeks.
Cover plywood bottom with glass, cut the steel to shape,drill bolt
holes, and paint steel before bedding steel in epoxy and bolting
through hull through the floors. The holes in the wood would be
over sized and poured full of epoxy from the inside. Is this the
correct procedure for installing the steel on the bottom ???
I expect the boat to look a lot better with the outside of the
hull/cabin top fiberglassed and painted. Will try to change out one
of the pictures when she is painted and on a trailer.
Thanks for the discussion.
David
wrote:
> Good luck with your project and post a photo or two,when youI have added and write up and some photos of Picara on Bolger3
> can, for us to enjoy :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,big time Bolger fan and confirmed boat-bum nut-
> case,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
in the files section.
I like the ideal of some steel on the bottom. A couple pieces of
1/4 X 8 inch 10 foot long centered at the deepest part of the bottom
to the outside edges and a 1/4 X 8 inch full length down the center
of the bottom. Comments???
What is the best procedure in installing steel to the bottom. I
plan on covering the bottom with 6 oz. cloth and the chines with an
extra layer of 9 oz. tape in a couple weeks.
Cover plywood bottom with glass, cut the steel to shape,drill bolt
holes, and paint steel before bedding steel in epoxy and bolting
through hull through the floors. The holes in the wood would be
over sized and poured full of epoxy from the inside. Is this the
correct procedure for installing the steel on the bottom ???
I expect the boat to look a lot better with the outside of the
hull/cabin top fiberglassed and painted. Will try to change out one
of the pictures when she is painted and on a trailer.
Thanks for the discussion.
David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <sharpie3444@y...> wrote:
If you still go through with the lead planks,keep Ricks warning
about an absolutely level work surface firmly in mind during set-up
and pouring stage!
As to lowering the ballast 3 inches,it can't hurt the righting
moment but may be a very small difference verses the extra effort to
do so.The designer can best advise in that regard.
Bolger has a number of designs which call for steel plate,as
ballast,but bolted to the OUTSIDE of the hull bottom.No worries about
the interior ever getting messed up with rusting plate,can be
installed after the hull is righted and provides a virtually bullet
proof bottom for grounding out on any surface.
With a wide range of industrial products formulated to protect
steel from rust,there is little reason why annual maintenance should
be no more difficult then touching up the bottom,where the bare steel
has become exposed.
With enough patience and rooting around, most of Bolgers
published designs can be un-earthed. This group along with Messing
About In Boats magazine and used/rare book stores are very good
starting points.However,keep in mind too that Bolger has over 700
designs to his credit,some of which he may no longer be proud of,
thus unlikely to ever see the light of day while he is alive.
Many off us too await the day a new tomb of his designs gets
published but he remains a very busy and engaged designer with,I
suspect,little time to properly devote himself to another
book......at least not yet. I still keep my fingers and toes crossed
that this will however change soon to sate the appetite of several
thousand hungry fans.
Good luck with your project and post a photo or two,when you
can, for us to enjoy :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big time Bolger fan and confirmed boat-bum nut-
case,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
> --- In bolger@yahoorust
> >
> With only a 9 inch draft will lowering the weight of the ballast 3
> inches likely improve the righting movement?
>
> > Has anyone had steel ballast in a boat for 5 or 10 years? Any
> problems? I have thought of coating the steel with epoxy and athin
> layer of epoxy/plywood/glass but still have an concern that theDavid,
> steel will rust and make a mess of the sole or swell the plywood
> apart if installed between layers of the bottom planking.
>
If you still go through with the lead planks,keep Ricks warning
about an absolutely level work surface firmly in mind during set-up
and pouring stage!
As to lowering the ballast 3 inches,it can't hurt the righting
moment but may be a very small difference verses the extra effort to
do so.The designer can best advise in that regard.
Bolger has a number of designs which call for steel plate,as
ballast,but bolted to the OUTSIDE of the hull bottom.No worries about
the interior ever getting messed up with rusting plate,can be
installed after the hull is righted and provides a virtually bullet
proof bottom for grounding out on any surface.
With a wide range of industrial products formulated to protect
steel from rust,there is little reason why annual maintenance should
be no more difficult then touching up the bottom,where the bare steel
has become exposed.
With enough patience and rooting around, most of Bolgers
published designs can be un-earthed. This group along with Messing
About In Boats magazine and used/rare book stores are very good
starting points.However,keep in mind too that Bolger has over 700
designs to his credit,some of which he may no longer be proud of,
thus unlikely to ever see the light of day while he is alive.
Many off us too await the day a new tomb of his designs gets
published but he remains a very busy and engaged designer with,I
suspect,little time to properly devote himself to another
book......at least not yet. I still keep my fingers and toes crossed
that this will however change soon to sate the appetite of several
thousand hungry fans.
Good luck with your project and post a photo or two,when you
can, for us to enjoy :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,big time Bolger fan and confirmed boat-bum nut-
case,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
> Have not installed them yet and I am stillSure there must be a difference in lowering the ballast 3 inches. Will
> looking for options.
>
> With only a 9 inch draft will lowering the weight of the ballast 3
> inches likely improve the righting movement?
you notice it? I doubt it. I think the main issue is to get the boat
ballasted down to her sailing lines. Use the lead or the steel, whatever
works for you.
>Somewhere I read a report on a guy who has a Bolger Black Skimmer with
>
> Has anyone had steel ballast in a boat for 5 or 10 years? Any rust
> problems? I have thought of coating the steel with epoxy and a thin
> layer of epoxy/plywood/glass but still have an concern that the
> steel will rust and make a mess of the sole or swell the plywood
> apart if installed between layers of the bottom planking.
internal steel plates that eventually rusted enough to make the cabin
look messy, but didn't seem to cause anyother problem. . Can't recall if
he pulled them out to clean them up or just painted over them? And
another guy who had slightly elevated the plates on some none water
absorbant material to allow drying between the plates and hull sole.
I bet a good paint system and decent maintenance would keep the plates
rust free in most areas for the 5- 10 years you are looking for.
Rick
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I like Bolger designs and have a few of his books, but it seems hard
> to find details of the designs. Same lack of an catalog that is
> often discussed. Wish the new book would be "30 Plywood Cruising
> Yawls"
>
> Peter I had planned for the 1/2 inch planks to bend around the
> bottom curve and be bolted to floors. They may need a couple pieces
> of rebar in the mold to help keep them together and in shape.
>
> Thanks Group for the lead discussion. David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
If you're going to pour that many square feet of lead to 1/2" thickness
with reasonable thickness variation your mold will need to be very level....
As suggested you should check into the industrial lead sheeting
distributors....
Rick
Peter Lenihan wrote:
with reasonable thickness variation your mold will need to be very level....
As suggested you should check into the industrial lead sheeting
distributors....
Rick
Peter Lenihan wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <sharpie3444@y...> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > The idea is to get near 1000 pounds of lead ballast as near the
> > bottom as possible and still keep a AS 29 type bottom. Ideas??
> >
> > David
>
> David,
> Not sure exactly what type of boat you're considering and wonder
> if the designer does not already specify details for the ballast
> installation?
> Nevertheless,if you want to go with your "lead plank" idea, I
> would assemble a very simple mold out of cheap lumber(pine/spruce) as
> follows;
--- In bolger@yahoo
I am building Picara ( 6 X 18, but I added a foot!!), ( a Jim
Michalak design ) an instant boat remake of Picaroon, with slot top
cabin, gaff main and mizzen added.) The ballast design was for 500
lbs of steel on the sole at the deepest part of the hull. Didn't
like the steel and have bought eight 65 pound blocks of lead that
will be housed in 4 X 6 X 36 inch strong boxes on the sole either
side of an center walkway/ utility room/kitchen. ( they will be
removable-unbolt etc.) Have not installed them yet and I am still
looking for options.
With only a 9 inch draft will lowering the weight of the ballast 3
inches likely improve the righting movement?
The lead question is partly research, I want to build an 7 X 34 foot
AS 29 type and want the design to suit before investing the time and
money. Picara is an test run to teach myself boatbuilding and help
decide on building a larger boat. Will use Picara a couple year in
either case.
The design concept of the larger boat is a square section midboat (
like AS29 to allow bilge boards and max room) with an second chine
fore and aft, to make the boat more seakindly ( easy rideing).
Ketch ,but yawl like with an small mizzen, large gaff main and about
7 foot forward of the mast to make room for some water tight area
and a jib. I know the jib sometimes backwinds a large gaff rigged
sail and may not use it with the main, but it works so well with the
mizzen when the main is handed.
Has anyone had steel ballast in a boat for 5 or 10 years? Any rust
problems? I have thought of coating the steel with epoxy and a thin
layer of epoxy/plywood/glass but still have an concern that the
steel will rust and make a mess of the sole or swell the plywood
apart if installed between layers of the bottom planking.
I like Bolger designs and have a few of his books, but it seems hard
to find details of the designs. Same lack of an catalog that is
often discussed. Wish the new book would be "30 Plywood Cruising
Yawls"
Peter I had planned for the 1/2 inch planks to bend around the
bottom curve and be bolted to floors. They may need a couple pieces
of rebar in the mold to help keep them together and in shape.
Thanks Group for the lead discussion. David
>ideas.
> So,that is how I would proceed and I hope it gives you some
> Now,how about elaborating for us what boat you are building:-)frankly
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,who once poured a lead keel for his Micro and
> found it rather anti-climatic...........Thanks Peter,
I am building Picara ( 6 X 18, but I added a foot!!), ( a Jim
Michalak design ) an instant boat remake of Picaroon, with slot top
cabin, gaff main and mizzen added.) The ballast design was for 500
lbs of steel on the sole at the deepest part of the hull. Didn't
like the steel and have bought eight 65 pound blocks of lead that
will be housed in 4 X 6 X 36 inch strong boxes on the sole either
side of an center walkway/ utility room/kitchen. ( they will be
removable-unbolt etc.) Have not installed them yet and I am still
looking for options.
With only a 9 inch draft will lowering the weight of the ballast 3
inches likely improve the righting movement?
The lead question is partly research, I want to build an 7 X 34 foot
AS 29 type and want the design to suit before investing the time and
money. Picara is an test run to teach myself boatbuilding and help
decide on building a larger boat. Will use Picara a couple year in
either case.
The design concept of the larger boat is a square section midboat (
like AS29 to allow bilge boards and max room) with an second chine
fore and aft, to make the boat more seakindly ( easy rideing).
Ketch ,but yawl like with an small mizzen, large gaff main and about
7 foot forward of the mast to make room for some water tight area
and a jib. I know the jib sometimes backwinds a large gaff rigged
sail and may not use it with the main, but it works so well with the
mizzen when the main is handed.
Has anyone had steel ballast in a boat for 5 or 10 years? Any rust
problems? I have thought of coating the steel with epoxy and a thin
layer of epoxy/plywood/glass but still have an concern that the
steel will rust and make a mess of the sole or swell the plywood
apart if installed between layers of the bottom planking.
I like Bolger designs and have a few of his books, but it seems hard
to find details of the designs. Same lack of an catalog that is
often discussed. Wish the new book would be "30 Plywood Cruising
Yawls"
Peter I had planned for the 1/2 inch planks to bend around the
bottom curve and be bolted to floors. They may need a couple pieces
of rebar in the mold to help keep them together and in shape.
Thanks Group for the lead discussion. David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Davis" <sharpie3444@y...> wrote:
Not sure exactly what type of boat you're considering and wonder
if the designer does not already specify details for the ballast
installation?
Nevertheless,if you want to go with your "lead plank" idea, I
would assemble a very simple mold out of cheap lumber(pine/spruce) as
follows;
Lay down a 2 X 10 by whatever length of plank you are
contemplating.Next,firmly attach,with screws, some 1 X 2 or 2 X 2
onto your 2 X 10 board to form the outline of your lead plank.Make
sure that the two long lengths of framing stock are perfectly joined
to the two short end pieces of you lead plank outline.
Into this trough,liberally coat with water glass(sodium
silicate),available at most good hardware stores.
Make certain that this is absolutely dry before pouring lead into
the trough.
Some things you may wish to do also is;
Find out the weight of lead in cubic inches and then figure out
how big or small you need to make your lead plank mold,that is,just
how much weight do you think you can safely manhandle once it is
cooled.
Once the lead has cooled enough to be flipped out of the mold,it
will need to be cleaned up a bit from the charred wood bits perhaps
trapped in the hard lead.Only when this lead plank has been cleaned
up should you measure it and cut out your plywood openings for the
lead planks.
Clean out the charred wood from your mold and replace,if
necessary,the framing stock(1 X 2 or 2 X 2) if it appears too charred
to clean up. Re-coat with more water glass and pour another lead
plank etc...........
Melt and pour your lead outside,expect to see lots of smoke when
the lead first enters your mold,stand up-wind of both the melting
lead and smoke,where a heavy long sleaved shirt/coat/jacket and long
pants and work boots.Be careful,not nervous. Pour lead as soon as it
is liquid,do not over heat.And,finally,consider adding another layer
of plywood to give you lots of"meat" down low where it counts:-)
So,that is how I would proceed and I hope it gives you some ideas.
Now,how about elaborating for us what boat you are building:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who once poured a lead keel for his Micro and frankly
found it rather anti-climatic...........
> The idea is to get near 1000 pounds of lead ballast as near theDavid,
> bottom as possible and still keep a AS 29 type bottom. Ideas??
>
> David
Not sure exactly what type of boat you're considering and wonder
if the designer does not already specify details for the ballast
installation?
Nevertheless,if you want to go with your "lead plank" idea, I
would assemble a very simple mold out of cheap lumber(pine/spruce) as
follows;
Lay down a 2 X 10 by whatever length of plank you are
contemplating.Next,firmly attach,with screws, some 1 X 2 or 2 X 2
onto your 2 X 10 board to form the outline of your lead plank.Make
sure that the two long lengths of framing stock are perfectly joined
to the two short end pieces of you lead plank outline.
Into this trough,liberally coat with water glass(sodium
silicate),available at most good hardware stores.
Make certain that this is absolutely dry before pouring lead into
the trough.
Some things you may wish to do also is;
Find out the weight of lead in cubic inches and then figure out
how big or small you need to make your lead plank mold,that is,just
how much weight do you think you can safely manhandle once it is
cooled.
Once the lead has cooled enough to be flipped out of the mold,it
will need to be cleaned up a bit from the charred wood bits perhaps
trapped in the hard lead.Only when this lead plank has been cleaned
up should you measure it and cut out your plywood openings for the
lead planks.
Clean out the charred wood from your mold and replace,if
necessary,the framing stock(1 X 2 or 2 X 2) if it appears too charred
to clean up. Re-coat with more water glass and pour another lead
plank etc...........
Melt and pour your lead outside,expect to see lots of smoke when
the lead first enters your mold,stand up-wind of both the melting
lead and smoke,where a heavy long sleaved shirt/coat/jacket and long
pants and work boots.Be careful,not nervous. Pour lead as soon as it
is liquid,do not over heat.And,finally,consider adding another layer
of plywood to give you lots of"meat" down low where it counts:-)
So,that is how I would proceed and I hope it gives you some ideas.
Now,how about elaborating for us what boat you are building:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who once poured a lead keel for his Micro and frankly
found it rather anti-climatic...........
David,
You poor guy. You asked a perfectly sensible question about how to do
one thing, and all you have gotten is suggestions that you do
something else.
I don't know anything much about pouring lead, but I wonder about the
long thin casting you envision because they will not be stiff enough
to support their own weight and will lose their shape.
Peter
You poor guy. You asked a perfectly sensible question about how to do
one thing, and all you have gotten is suggestions that you do
something else.
I don't know anything much about pouring lead, but I wonder about the
long thin casting you envision because they will not be stiff enough
to support their own weight and will lose their shape.
Peter
Alternately, why not make a non-fixed internal placement? Being able
to take the ballast out of the boat can come in handy.
-David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
to take the ballast out of the boat can come in handy.
-David
>--- David Davis wrote:--
>> The idea is to get near
>> 1000 pounds of lead ballast
>> as near the
>> bottom as possible
>> and still keep a AS 29 type
>> bottom. Ideas??
>
>Why not use steel plates
>surfaced mounted on the bottom
>of the boat, like PB&F use
>in the new AS-29?
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
--- David Davis wrote:
surfaced mounted on the bottom
of the boat, like PB&F use
in the new AS-29?
> The idea is to get nearWhy not use steel plates
> 1000 pounds of lead ballast
> as near the
> bottom as possible
> and still keep a AS 29 type
> bottom. Ideas??
surfaced mounted on the bottom
of the boat, like PB&F use
in the new AS-29?
> 1/2 inch X 8 inch X 10 foot longYou might look into the folks who supply lead for installation into
> lead "planks" to use as ballast...
walls in dentistry and medical offices for protection against x-rays,
etc. They sell lead in sheets about this thick for little more than
the cost of the raw material.
Peter
David Davis wrote:
installing the lead from the outside?
Why not install it internally? With a flat bottomed hull
the difference in ballast effect would be slight, and
you could install it after flipping your hull. Also you
don't need to worry so about sealing or bedding.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> I am interested in pouring 1/2 inch X 8 inch X 10 foot longAm I right in believing that you are planning on
> lead "planks" to use as ballast in cavities cut into a second layer
> of plywood on a sharpie hull bottom. A third layer of plywood would
> be used to cover all. The lead would be beded and covered with
> epoxy putty and also bolted in place.
installing the lead from the outside?
Why not install it internally? With a flat bottomed hull
the difference in ballast effect would be slight, and
you could install it after flipping your hull. Also you
don't need to worry so about sealing or bedding.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
I am interested in pouring 1/2 inch X 8 inch X 10 foot long
lead "planks" to use as ballast in cavities cut into a second layer
of plywood on a sharpie hull bottom. A third layer of plywood would
be used to cover all. The lead would be beded and covered with
epoxy putty and also bolted in place.
Comments on the practical methods of pouring this much lead ( 120 to
140 pounds) at a time would be welcome. Maybe two 4 inche planks
would be better.
I visualize 3 planks centered at the low point, with 3 to 4 inches
of plywood between them. The goal is planks light enough to avoid
lifting more than needful at one time. ( building alone! )
A concern is turning the hull over with the 1000 pounds on it.
The idea is to get near 1000 pounds of lead ballast as near the
bottom as possible and still keep a AS 29 type bottom. Ideas??
David
lead "planks" to use as ballast in cavities cut into a second layer
of plywood on a sharpie hull bottom. A third layer of plywood would
be used to cover all. The lead would be beded and covered with
epoxy putty and also bolted in place.
Comments on the practical methods of pouring this much lead ( 120 to
140 pounds) at a time would be welcome. Maybe two 4 inche planks
would be better.
I visualize 3 planks centered at the low point, with 3 to 4 inches
of plywood between them. The goal is planks light enough to avoid
lifting more than needful at one time. ( building alone! )
A concern is turning the hull over with the 1000 pounds on it.
The idea is to get near 1000 pounds of lead ballast as near the
bottom as possible and still keep a AS 29 type bottom. Ideas??
David