[bolger] Re: (Fwd)
BO>Someone calling him(her)self Don wrote:
BO>oin-@...wrote:
BO>> If we have not got free speech, I wonder why
BO>> we have this Group?
BO>> Don
BO>Why don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.
Don's comment was not a troll, as you would be aware if you had tracked
his considerable past contributions to this eGroup. This eGroup has
been singularly free of the acrimony which mars other discussion groups,
and was not ever intended to be the blood sport pit some of the alt.*
newsgroups are. If you want a forum for shoving, why not join the big
boys at alt.sailing.asa?
Tim Fatchen
BO>oin-@...wrote:
BO>> If we have not got free speech, I wonder why
BO>> we have this Group?
BO>> Don
BO>Why don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.
Don's comment was not a troll, as you would be aware if you had tracked
his considerable past contributions to this eGroup. This eGroup has
been singularly free of the acrimony which mars other discussion groups,
and was not ever intended to be the blood sport pit some of the alt.*
newsgroups are. If you want a forum for shoving, why not join the big
boys at alt.sailing.asa?
Tim Fatchen
Date sent: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:53:41 -0800
From: "alex" <alexm@...>
To:bolger@...
Send reply to:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: (Fwd)
I'm sorry you feel this way Alex.
Just to put things straight, I have the highest respect for Mr Bolger,
and have built two of his boats. And will build more.
I am not being hyper-critical of him, and I doubt there is anything
fundamentally wrong with MJ.
He does contribute to this Group from time to time, and I think that
is huge value.
In view of the fact that this thread has been going for some time,
and the six or seven people affected are pretty spooked by an
unpleasant experience, and theories are flying in all directions,
surely some comment by the person most qualified would be
valuable?
Litigation? That's another matter....but God help us all if it's an
issue.
Anyway, this is my last word about it. I don't wish to be attacked
by thinking people such as you.
Don
From: "alex" <alexm@...>
To:bolger@...
Send reply to:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: (Fwd)
I'm sorry you feel this way Alex.
Just to put things straight, I have the highest respect for Mr Bolger,
and have built two of his boats. And will build more.
I am not being hyper-critical of him, and I doubt there is anything
fundamentally wrong with MJ.
He does contribute to this Group from time to time, and I think that
is huge value.
In view of the fact that this thread has been going for some time,
and the six or seven people affected are pretty spooked by an
unpleasant experience, and theories are flying in all directions,
surely some comment by the person most qualified would be
valuable?
Litigation? That's another matter....but God help us all if it's an
issue.
Anyway, this is my last word about it. I don't wish to be attacked
by thinking people such as you.
Don
> Someone calling him(her)self Don wrote:
>
>oin-@...wrote:
> > If we have not got free speech, I wonder why
> > we have this Group?
> > Don
>
> Why don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.
>
>
>
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In a message dated 3/9/2000 11:21:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jkck@...writes:
<< I didn't think Steve was intending to sue. I just meant that you never
know, and sometimes you have to be careful. >>
Thank you thank you - please let's not scare mr. b.!!!!!
I am curious as to his take on all of this - and am thinking about whether I
should trouble him or not. I haven't decided.
Steve
jkck@...writes:
<< I didn't think Steve was intending to sue. I just meant that you never
know, and sometimes you have to be careful. >>
Thank you thank you - please let's not scare mr. b.!!!!!
I am curious as to his take on all of this - and am thinking about whether I
should trouble him or not. I haven't decided.
Steve
oin-@...wrote:
reflecting what cautious practice would be. I'll bet that Mr. Bolger
knows far more about this subject than I do. And he is not speaking
out, maybe--maybe-- because of the reasons I outlined.
I didn't think Steve was intending to sue. I just meant that you never
know, and sometimes you have to be careful.
Carter
> Are you sure about this? After all, his design books containNo, I am not sure at all about this. I am not a lawyer. I am just
> statements about his designs, which could be contested in event of
> problems?
reflecting what cautious practice would be. I'll bet that Mr. Bolger
knows far more about this subject than I do. And he is not speaking
out, maybe--maybe-- because of the reasons I outlined.
I didn't think Steve was intending to sue. I just meant that you never
know, and sometimes you have to be careful.
> If we have not got free speech, I wonder why we have this Group?This group is wonderful-- a joy. It makes my day.
> Don
Carter
Agreed this is an interesting topic. Carrying the discussion in public has its merits, but if it were my boat I'd be consulting with the designer in private, too. I sent PCB a fax yesterday with an inquiry and he responed (via fax) within an hour or so. Have you considered contacting him directly?
JB
bolger@egroups.comwrote:
other mj builders could share in the insights - as well as the experience. I
especially felt like I wanted Mark Z. in alaska to be up to date - since he
will be sailing in extremely cold water and with a daughter on board too! I
would guess that this discussion would be of interest to Mark! I also hope
that I have not been accusatory in any way - I see this as a problem to be
understood and solved that's all. I think that handling error undoubtedly is
an issue here - and that martha janes must have some peculiarities which
those of us who sail her need to be aware of. For example - I sailed my sea
pearl twenty one out of worse conditions than this on Lake Superiour and
again in pine island sound several years ago - I didn't handle that boat any
differently than this one - but - the outcome was much different! apparrantly
I need to handle mj differently. I'm not bashful about admitting that!!
As for the boat itself - if mr. bolger were to suggest increased ballast I
would not hesitate - with my pulling capacity I could finish installing the
water ballast and still ad up to 500 more pounds of solid ballast and pull
the boat with no problems - tho I wonder if I would get up a ramp!!!
steve
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JB
bolger@egroups.comwrote:
> Don and Carter - Just for the record - litigation is the farthest thing frommy mind!! I posted my letter to the list to solicite input - and so that
other mj builders could share in the insights - as well as the experience. I
especially felt like I wanted Mark Z. in alaska to be up to date - since he
will be sailing in extremely cold water and with a daughter on board too! I
would guess that this discussion would be of interest to Mark! I also hope
that I have not been accusatory in any way - I see this as a problem to be
understood and solved that's all. I think that handling error undoubtedly is
an issue here - and that martha janes must have some peculiarities which
those of us who sail her need to be aware of. For example - I sailed my sea
pearl twenty one out of worse conditions than this on Lake Superiour and
again in pine island sound several years ago - I didn't handle that boat any
differently than this one - but - the outcome was much different! apparrantly
I need to handle mj differently. I'm not bashful about admitting that!!
As for the boat itself - if mr. bolger were to suggest increased ballast I
would not hesitate - with my pulling capacity I could finish installing the
water ballast and still ad up to 500 more pounds of solid ballast and pull
the boat with no problems - tho I wonder if I would get up a ramp!!!
steve
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Steve - I think this thread has been one of the most interesting ones
in this forum. Back to design related issues, I would be very surprised
if PCB suggested to significantly increase ballast. This would change
the waterlines and most probably introduce either weather or lee helm
if nothing is done on the appendages. Best, Pippo
hwa-@...wrote:
in this forum. Back to design related issues, I would be very surprised
if PCB suggested to significantly increase ballast. This would change
the waterlines and most probably introduce either weather or lee helm
if nothing is done on the appendages. Best, Pippo
hwa-@...wrote:
> As for the boat itself - if mr. bolger were to suggest increasedballast I
> would not hesitate - with my pulling capacity I could finishinstalling the
> water ballast and still ad up to 500 more pounds of solid ballast andpull
> the boat with no problems - tho I wonder if I would get up a ramp!!!
>
> steve
Don and Carter - Just for the record - litigation is the farthest thing from
my mind!! I posted my letter to the list to solicite input - and so that
other mj builders could share in the insights - as well as the experience. I
especially felt like I wanted Mark Z. in alaska to be up to date - since he
will be sailing in extremely cold water and with a daughter on board too! I
would guess that this discussion would be of interest to Mark! I also hope
that I have not been accusatory in any way - I see this as a problem to be
understood and solved that's all. I think that handling error undoubtedly is
an issue here - and that martha janes must have some peculiarities which
those of us who sail her need to be aware of. For example - I sailed my sea
pearl twenty one out of worse conditions than this on Lake Superiour and
again in pine island sound several years ago - I didn't handle that boat any
differently than this one - but - the outcome was much different! apparrantly
I need to handle mj differently. I'm not bashful about admitting that!!
As for the boat itself - if mr. bolger were to suggest increased ballast I
would not hesitate - with my pulling capacity I could finish installing the
water ballast and still ad up to 500 more pounds of solid ballast and pull
the boat with no problems - tho I wonder if I would get up a ramp!!!
steve
my mind!! I posted my letter to the list to solicite input - and so that
other mj builders could share in the insights - as well as the experience. I
especially felt like I wanted Mark Z. in alaska to be up to date - since he
will be sailing in extremely cold water and with a daughter on board too! I
would guess that this discussion would be of interest to Mark! I also hope
that I have not been accusatory in any way - I see this as a problem to be
understood and solved that's all. I think that handling error undoubtedly is
an issue here - and that martha janes must have some peculiarities which
those of us who sail her need to be aware of. For example - I sailed my sea
pearl twenty one out of worse conditions than this on Lake Superiour and
again in pine island sound several years ago - I didn't handle that boat any
differently than this one - but - the outcome was much different! apparrantly
I need to handle mj differently. I'm not bashful about admitting that!!
As for the boat itself - if mr. bolger were to suggest increased ballast I
would not hesitate - with my pulling capacity I could finish installing the
water ballast and still ad up to 500 more pounds of solid ballast and pull
the boat with no problems - tho I wonder if I would get up a ramp!!!
steve
Hi Pippo,
I agree........he has also written about good seamanship playing a
substantial role in alot of the successful small boat adventures of the
past,regardless of any particular design's short comings.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,hoping to live long enough to actually reap the benefits
of the green house effect or else moving away from these slowly thawing
frozen shores of the St.Lawrence....
"giuseppe 'pippo' bianco" <giuseppe.bianc-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3535
I agree........he has also written about good seamanship playing a
substantial role in alot of the successful small boat adventures of the
past,regardless of any particular design's short comings.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,hoping to live long enough to actually reap the benefits
of the green house effect or else moving away from these slowly thawing
frozen shores of the St.Lawrence....
"giuseppe 'pippo' bianco" <giuseppe.bianc-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3535
> "alex" <alex-@...> wrote:clear
>
> > Why don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.
>
> Hey, wait a minute. What's this? I completely agree with Don (his real
> name). PCB has always written very opinionated comments on his own
> designs in his books. He wrote that a few MJ's have made passages in
> open sea and kept the sea in gales...
> I've followed the discussions with a lot of interest. Seems to me
> that MJ is an inherently tender design. Everything in boat design
> results from trade-offs, and the commodities of shallow draft, flat
> bottom and water ballast do have a cost in terms of seaworthiness,
> otherwise all the boats would be made that way. I haven't made
> computations, but I would not be surprised to know that MJ's righting
> moment would peak at about 30 degrees of heel angle and vanish well
> before 90 degs. By the way, Jim Michalak has written a very nice
> article on water ballast, which is clearly not a panacea.
> Best, Pippo
>
"alex" <alex-@...> wrote:
name). PCB has always written very opinionated comments on his own
designs in his books. He wrote that a few MJ's have made passages in
open sea and kept the sea in gales...
I've followed the discussions with a lot of interest. Seems to me clear
that MJ is an inherently tender design. Everything in boat design
results from trade-offs, and the commodities of shallow draft, flat
bottom and water ballast do have a cost in terms of seaworthiness,
otherwise all the boats would be made that way. I haven't made
computations, but I would not be surprised to know that MJ's righting
moment would peak at about 30 degrees of heel angle and vanish well
before 90 degs. By the way, Jim Michalak has written a very nice
article on water ballast, which is clearly not a panacea.
Best, Pippo
> Why don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.Hey, wait a minute. What's this? I completely agree with Don (his real
name). PCB has always written very opinionated comments on his own
designs in his books. He wrote that a few MJ's have made passages in
open sea and kept the sea in gales...
I've followed the discussions with a lot of interest. Seems to me clear
that MJ is an inherently tender design. Everything in boat design
results from trade-offs, and the commodities of shallow draft, flat
bottom and water ballast do have a cost in terms of seaworthiness,
otherwise all the boats would be made that way. I haven't made
computations, but I would not be surprised to know that MJ's righting
moment would peak at about 30 degrees of heel angle and vanish well
before 90 degs. By the way, Jim Michalak has written a very nice
article on water ballast, which is clearly not a panacea.
Best, Pippo
Someone calling him(her)self Don wrote:
oin-@...wrote:
oin-@...wrote:
> If we have not got free speech, I wonder whyWhy don't you take your trolls to alt.cheapstuff.
> we have this Group?
> Don
Date sent: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 15:28:26 -0800
From: "Carter Kennedy" <jkck@...>
To:bolger@...
Send reply to:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: (Fwd)
Are you sure about this? After all, his design books contain
statements about his designs, which could be contested in event of
problems?
If we have not got free speech, I wonder why we have this Group?
Don
From: "Carter Kennedy" <jkck@...>
To:bolger@...
Send reply to:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: (Fwd)
>He could come here, the land free of litigation, and home of the Americas Cup Carter!
> Bolger lives in the USA, lawsuit capital of the world. It is not good
> practice for a designer to make public comments about what could be a
> potential liability. He can't make offhand comments or engage in
> uninformed speculation like we can because his statements carry the
> weight of authority. He might be held financially responsible for what
> was intended to be a casual suggestion.
Are you sure about this? After all, his design books contain
statements about his designs, which could be contested in event of
problems?
If we have not got free speech, I wonder why we have this Group?
Don
> Questions of safety need to be addressed calmly and methodically when
> it is your reputation and money at stake, not in a public forum. He may
> well respond to the individual builder if asked directly. If he does,
> that is private business between them. If any public announcement needs
> to be made, it should be made only after thoughtful and thorough
> consideration.
>
> Carter Kennedy
oin-@...wrote:
Bolger lives in the USA, lawsuit capital of the world. It is not good
practice for a designer to make public comments about what could be a
potential liability. He can't make offhand comments or engage in
uninformed speculation like we can because his statements carry the
weight of authority. He might be held financially responsible for what
was intended to be a casual suggestion.
Questions of safety need to be addressed calmly and methodically when
it is your reputation and money at stake, not in a public forum. He may
well respond to the individual builder if asked directly. If he does,
that is private business between them. If any public announcement needs
to be made, it should be made only after thoughtful and thorough
consideration.
Carter Kennedy
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3514
Bolger lives in the USA, lawsuit capital of the world. It is not good
practice for a designer to make public comments about what could be a
potential liability. He can't make offhand comments or engage in
uninformed speculation like we can because his statements carry the
weight of authority. He might be held financially responsible for what
was intended to be a casual suggestion.
Questions of safety need to be addressed calmly and methodically when
it is your reputation and money at stake, not in a public forum. He may
well respond to the individual builder if asked directly. If he does,
that is private business between them. If any public announcement needs
to be made, it should be made only after thoughtful and thorough
consideration.
Carter Kennedy
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3514
>
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> From: Self <Single-user mode>
> To: Mr Bolger:re MJ knockdowns
> Subject: Date sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:54:40 +1300
>
> Dear Mr Bolger,
> I sent a post a few days ago, respectfully suggesting that you
> might respond to the deluge of mail regarding MJ knockdowns.
> There have been some of uninformed suggestions, lots of thoughtful
> questions, but I felt you may have some answers, or at least ask
> the intelligent questions of the dunked owners, to see if there is a
> simple answer.
> I guess you are very busy, or have not seen all these posts.
> I am a design professional in another field. If this worry surfaced
> regarding some of my work, I would respond as soon as possible.
> Not only to protect my reputation, but also to educate and reassure
> my clients.
> Several of your boats are designed on similar principles to Martha
> Jane, and if certain cautions of ownership should be observed, I
> wish to know before I select my next design.
> Regards,
> Don
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: Self <Single-user mode>
To: Mr Bolger:re MJ knockdowns
Subject: Date sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:54:40 +1300
Dear Mr Bolger,
I sent a post a few days ago, respectfully suggesting that you
might respond to the deluge of mail regarding MJ knockdowns.
There have been some of uninformed suggestions, lots of thoughtful
questions, but I felt you may have some answers, or at least ask
the intelligent questions of the dunked owners, to see if there is a
simple answer.
I guess you are very busy, or have not seen all these posts.
I am a design professional in another field. If this worry surfaced
regarding some of my work, I would respond as soon as possible.
Not only to protect my reputation, but also to educate and reassure
my clients.
Several of your boats are designed on similar principles to Martha
Jane, and if certain cautions of ownership should be observed, I
wish to know before I select my next design.
Regards,
Don
From: Self <Single-user mode>
To: Mr Bolger:re MJ knockdowns
Subject: Date sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:54:40 +1300
Dear Mr Bolger,
I sent a post a few days ago, respectfully suggesting that you
might respond to the deluge of mail regarding MJ knockdowns.
There have been some of uninformed suggestions, lots of thoughtful
questions, but I felt you may have some answers, or at least ask
the intelligent questions of the dunked owners, to see if there is a
simple answer.
I guess you are very busy, or have not seen all these posts.
I am a design professional in another field. If this worry surfaced
regarding some of my work, I would respond as soon as possible.
Not only to protect my reputation, but also to educate and reassure
my clients.
Several of your boats are designed on similar principles to Martha
Jane, and if certain cautions of ownership should be observed, I
wish to know before I select my next design.
Regards,
Don