Re: Air drying boatbuilding wood (was RE: appropiate use for salvaged redwood)
you bet - If it's not too much trouble.
Thanks!
Frank
Thanks!
Frank
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> Hi Frank, I have some ancient Navy manuals for wood boatbuilding which
> include information on air drying. Of course they were doing it on a
> large scale but the lessons are there. I could scale the relevent
> pages if it would be helpful.
> Bob Chamberland
>
> > So I started reading and am interested in particular in the chapter on
> > air drying since I am about to chop down three large tulip poplar
> > trees that are too close to my house. I figure there is about 1000
> > bd-ft in there, which is plenty for a bunch of strip built boats, plus
> > a wood floor here or there! Anyway, reading the chapter on air
> > drying, it says that kiln dried wood is better quality. But I always
> > thought air drying was the way to go. Not that I have a choice - I'm
> > going to hire a woodmizer operator to saw the logs and then I'll stack
> > the planks in the yard under a tarp.
> >
> > Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use in
boats.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Frank San Miguel
> > Landenberg, PA
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> > > In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
> > > Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter
3 you
> > > will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> > > shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> > > will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar
are in a
> > > class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> > > 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> > > Bob Chamberland
Bob,
you bet - if its not too much trouble.
Thanks!
Frank
you bet - if its not too much trouble.
Thanks!
Frank
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> Hi Frank, I have some ancient Navy manuals for wood boatbuilding which
> include information on air drying. Of course they were doing it on a
> large scale but the lessons are there. I could scale the relevent
> pages if it would be helpful.
> Bob Chamberland
>
> > So I started reading and am interested in particular in the chapter on
> > air drying since I am about to chop down three large tulip poplar
> > trees that are too close to my house. I figure there is about 1000
> > bd-ft in there, which is plenty for a bunch of strip built boats, plus
> > a wood floor here or there! Anyway, reading the chapter on air
> > drying, it says that kiln dried wood is better quality. But I always
> > thought air drying was the way to go. Not that I have a choice - I'm
> > going to hire a woodmizer operator to saw the logs and then I'll stack
> > the planks in the yard under a tarp.
> >
> > Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use in
boats.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Frank San Miguel
> > Landenberg, PA
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> > > In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
> > > Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter
3 you
> > > will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> > > shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> > > will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar
are in a
> > > class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> > > 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> > > Bob Chamberland
> > Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use inboats.
> >What worked for me: I ricked some newly-cut mountain ash, some new
> > Thanks
> >
> > Frank San Miguel
> > Landenberg, PA
> >
black walnut and some salvaged redwood in the unfinished attic of my
enclosed garage for about 2 months. The daily heat-and-cool cycles
dried all three of these with almost no checking.
JR Sloan
Spokane, WA
--- Seems the original question was about whether salvaged redwood is
suitable for an epoxy-encased hull...
Two years ago, I too inherited a nice stack of 25-year-old redwood
deck boards, the result of helping a neighbor remodel his backyard.
I decided to test the wood for hull materials by stripping some and
comparing it to cedar, also easily available (but comparatively
expensive to FREE salvaged wood) here in Spokane. I found the
decking had remained sound over 25 years, though surface-checked from
sun exposure, winter cold and summer yard-watering. Once surfaced,
the original grain was sound and in 1/4" dimensions sufficiently
flexible to take the curves I imposed on it in my own design for a
large cargo canoe.
Problems encountered and solutions imposed:
--Having been outdoors for decades, even in our semi-desert climate,
the wood was heavy with moisture content. Solution: I stored some of
the stuff in the attic of my finished garage for several months
to "kiln-dry" out. Then until the end of the project, I stored it
ricked and under poly cover on the floor of the garage-shop.
--Original decking was very Knotty, and difficult for finding
straight grained sections for strips. Solution: rigged up a tapering
jig on the table saw and cut out the knots from the whole 2x4s,
gluing back the remaining trapezoidal sections into 5- and 6-piece
whole boards up to 24' long. I sliced the resulting boards into 1-
1/4" wide x 5/16" thick building strips, ranging from 20+ feet to 12
feet in length. These wider-than-3/4" strips worked fine for most
purposes; for other needs, it was a simple matter to mark, plane, and
fit.
--Wood was soft, old growth, and resisted fitting into bead-and-cove
configurations without edge-splitting or disfigurement. Solutions:
After experimenting with both 1/4" and 3/8" bead-and-cove sets,
abandoned this idea in favor of fitting strips together using low-
angle block planes and the needs of the current joint. This process
with a little practice turned out to be at least 25% faster than
forcing bead-and-cove on the redwood.
--Open-grain, dry redwood quickly absorbed glue and epoxy,
sometimes "starving" joints. Solution: Disregarded the glue issue as
unimportant, since I planned to squeegee in a sealer coat of epoxy
before applying glass, anyway; if the glue held the wood in place
until then, I figured I was OK. In the actual event, the
somewhat "wiggly" structure responded so well to the first sealer
coat of epoxy, that it practically transformed before our eyes--from
what we thought was a somewhat "iffy" proposition to a solid, rigid
structure with beautiful, deep brown and red--almost purple--grain
patterns.
--"Soft redwood of this age is too "brittle" to work with"--We got
told this by so-called experts wh had never tried it, apparently.
This wood is more brittle than some other woods, but the issue was a
non-problem with our very curvy hull plan: when the curves got too
extreme, we just narrowed the strips at that location to get the
needed flexibility. Or, we added a gusset where a gap was too
extreme. So long as we had the block plane and weren't locked into
the bead-and-cove structure limitation, the project went along fine.
--Bonding issues for epoxy over redwood. Solutions: The only problem
so far is one deck panel that had been constructed of redwood strips
over a ply section to impart stability: the PVA veneering glue
apparently had enough moisture that weeks later it bled through the
panel's surface to cause some "fogging" of the subsurface finish when
exposed to UV or sunlight in the maiden voyage. But there is no
evidence of delamination. There is zero evidence of finish problems
inside (a single layer of glass and epoxy to seal and provide surface
texture) or out (two layers of glass). All surfaces were fine sanded
to 400 grit then sprayed with UV-screened Spar Varnish, x 6 coats and
rubbed.
--Allergic reactions to redwood sawdust. Solutions: This proved to be
a real, sneezy problem. We bought professional ($20) dust filter
masks and refrained from sawing or sanding without using them. Made
all the difference in the world.
Final comments: We ought to be re-discovering ways to re-use
windfall sources of wood, especially those heading toward scarcity.
Old-growth redwood is one of these resources, as are some of the
straight-grain cedars we want to recommend in kits, or otherwise.
The result of salvaging this decking on this project was a stripper
of unusually "quilted" appearance, due to the exposure of the many
scarf joints in its hull strips, but no less strong, functional or
attractive for this. There's nothing wrong with strippers made of
almost any kind of wood, assuming an initial design strength is met
and the wood is protected with appropriate finishes/materials.
JR Sloan, Moderator
Cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
suitable for an epoxy-encased hull...
Two years ago, I too inherited a nice stack of 25-year-old redwood
deck boards, the result of helping a neighbor remodel his backyard.
I decided to test the wood for hull materials by stripping some and
comparing it to cedar, also easily available (but comparatively
expensive to FREE salvaged wood) here in Spokane. I found the
decking had remained sound over 25 years, though surface-checked from
sun exposure, winter cold and summer yard-watering. Once surfaced,
the original grain was sound and in 1/4" dimensions sufficiently
flexible to take the curves I imposed on it in my own design for a
large cargo canoe.
Problems encountered and solutions imposed:
--Having been outdoors for decades, even in our semi-desert climate,
the wood was heavy with moisture content. Solution: I stored some of
the stuff in the attic of my finished garage for several months
to "kiln-dry" out. Then until the end of the project, I stored it
ricked and under poly cover on the floor of the garage-shop.
--Original decking was very Knotty, and difficult for finding
straight grained sections for strips. Solution: rigged up a tapering
jig on the table saw and cut out the knots from the whole 2x4s,
gluing back the remaining trapezoidal sections into 5- and 6-piece
whole boards up to 24' long. I sliced the resulting boards into 1-
1/4" wide x 5/16" thick building strips, ranging from 20+ feet to 12
feet in length. These wider-than-3/4" strips worked fine for most
purposes; for other needs, it was a simple matter to mark, plane, and
fit.
--Wood was soft, old growth, and resisted fitting into bead-and-cove
configurations without edge-splitting or disfigurement. Solutions:
After experimenting with both 1/4" and 3/8" bead-and-cove sets,
abandoned this idea in favor of fitting strips together using low-
angle block planes and the needs of the current joint. This process
with a little practice turned out to be at least 25% faster than
forcing bead-and-cove on the redwood.
--Open-grain, dry redwood quickly absorbed glue and epoxy,
sometimes "starving" joints. Solution: Disregarded the glue issue as
unimportant, since I planned to squeegee in a sealer coat of epoxy
before applying glass, anyway; if the glue held the wood in place
until then, I figured I was OK. In the actual event, the
somewhat "wiggly" structure responded so well to the first sealer
coat of epoxy, that it practically transformed before our eyes--from
what we thought was a somewhat "iffy" proposition to a solid, rigid
structure with beautiful, deep brown and red--almost purple--grain
patterns.
--"Soft redwood of this age is too "brittle" to work with"--We got
told this by so-called experts wh had never tried it, apparently.
This wood is more brittle than some other woods, but the issue was a
non-problem with our very curvy hull plan: when the curves got too
extreme, we just narrowed the strips at that location to get the
needed flexibility. Or, we added a gusset where a gap was too
extreme. So long as we had the block plane and weren't locked into
the bead-and-cove structure limitation, the project went along fine.
--Bonding issues for epoxy over redwood. Solutions: The only problem
so far is one deck panel that had been constructed of redwood strips
over a ply section to impart stability: the PVA veneering glue
apparently had enough moisture that weeks later it bled through the
panel's surface to cause some "fogging" of the subsurface finish when
exposed to UV or sunlight in the maiden voyage. But there is no
evidence of delamination. There is zero evidence of finish problems
inside (a single layer of glass and epoxy to seal and provide surface
texture) or out (two layers of glass). All surfaces were fine sanded
to 400 grit then sprayed with UV-screened Spar Varnish, x 6 coats and
rubbed.
--Allergic reactions to redwood sawdust. Solutions: This proved to be
a real, sneezy problem. We bought professional ($20) dust filter
masks and refrained from sawing or sanding without using them. Made
all the difference in the world.
Final comments: We ought to be re-discovering ways to re-use
windfall sources of wood, especially those heading toward scarcity.
Old-growth redwood is one of these resources, as are some of the
straight-grain cedars we want to recommend in kits, or otherwise.
The result of salvaging this decking on this project was a stripper
of unusually "quilted" appearance, due to the exposure of the many
scarf joints in its hull strips, but no less strong, functional or
attractive for this. There's nothing wrong with strippers made of
almost any kind of wood, assuming an initial design strength is met
and the wood is protected with appropriate finishes/materials.
JR Sloan, Moderator
Cedarstripcanoes@yahoogroups.com
Hi Frank, I have some ancient Navy manuals for wood boatbuilding which
include information on air drying. Of course they were doing it on a
large scale but the lessons are there. I could scale the relevent
pages if it would be helpful.
Bob Chamberland
include information on air drying. Of course they were doing it on a
large scale but the lessons are there. I could scale the relevent
pages if it would be helpful.
Bob Chamberland
> So I started reading and am interested in particular in the chapter on
> air drying since I am about to chop down three large tulip poplar
> trees that are too close to my house. I figure there is about 1000
> bd-ft in there, which is plenty for a bunch of strip built boats, plus
> a wood floor here or there! Anyway, reading the chapter on air
> drying, it says that kiln dried wood is better quality. But I always
> thought air drying was the way to go. Not that I have a choice - I'm
> going to hire a woodmizer operator to saw the logs and then I'll stack
> the planks in the yard under a tarp.
>
> Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use in boats.
>
> Thanks
>
> Frank San Miguel
> Landenberg, PA
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> > In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
> > Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
> > will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> > shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> > will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
> > class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> > 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> > Bob Chamberland
Thanks Bob for for referring us to this great manual. I remeber
hearing about it before, but after reading your post, I did a google
search and found the whole thing is downloadable for free at:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
So I started reading and am interested in particular in the chapter on
air drying since I am about to chop down three large tulip poplar
trees that are too close to my house. I figure there is about 1000
bd-ft in there, which is plenty for a bunch of strip built boats, plus
a wood floor here or there! Anyway, reading the chapter on air
drying, it says that kiln dried wood is better quality. But I always
thought air drying was the way to go. Not that I have a choice - I'm
going to hire a woodmizer operator to saw the logs and then I'll stack
the planks in the yard under a tarp.
Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use in boats.
Thanks
Frank San Miguel
Landenberg, PA
hearing about it before, but after reading your post, I did a google
search and found the whole thing is downloadable for free at:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
So I started reading and am interested in particular in the chapter on
air drying since I am about to chop down three large tulip poplar
trees that are too close to my house. I figure there is about 1000
bd-ft in there, which is plenty for a bunch of strip built boats, plus
a wood floor here or there! Anyway, reading the chapter on air
drying, it says that kiln dried wood is better quality. But I always
thought air drying was the way to go. Not that I have a choice - I'm
going to hire a woodmizer operator to saw the logs and then I'll stack
the planks in the yard under a tarp.
Anyone have comments or suggestions on air drying wood for use in boats.
Thanks
Frank San Miguel
Landenberg, PA
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
> Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
> will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
> class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> Bob Chamberland
For what it's worth I built the mast for my Junebug out of redwood.
I couldn't find any clear fir which was my first choice. In my area
(Sacramento, CA) it is easy to find long lengths of clear redwood. I
searched through the stack at Home Depot and found a nearly perfect
2x6x16' for only $20.00. I ripped it into 2 2x3 planks and glued it
into a 4x3 using Titebond II. I intended to varnish it but never got
around to it. It seems plenty stiff and I've had the boat out in 20
knot winds wih the boat loaded with about 400 pounds of crew. I
store the boat in my garage and haven't noticed any dimensional
changes.
-Mike
I couldn't find any clear fir which was my first choice. In my area
(Sacramento, CA) it is easy to find long lengths of clear redwood. I
searched through the stack at Home Depot and found a nearly perfect
2x6x16' for only $20.00. I ripped it into 2 2x3 planks and glued it
into a 4x3 using Titebond II. I intended to varnish it but never got
around to it. It seems plenty stiff and I've had the boat out in 20
knot winds wih the boat loaded with about 400 pounds of crew. I
store the boat in my garage and haven't noticed any dimensional
changes.
-Mike
Actually they have the numbers for old growth and young growth. I
quoted the numbers for old growth. Young growth numbers are 2.2%
radial, 4.9 tangential, 7.0 volumetric. More to the point redwood
scores better than any other softwood except Western Red Cedar or
Northern White Cedar. Again I would recommend referring to the Handbook.
Bob Chamberland
quoted the numbers for old growth. Young growth numbers are 2.2%
radial, 4.9 tangential, 7.0 volumetric. More to the point redwood
scores better than any other softwood except Western Red Cedar or
Northern White Cedar. Again I would recommend referring to the Handbook.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> My guess, (only a guess) is they tested clear old growth heart redwood.
> Really premium stuff and hard to fine nowadays. I assumed Paul's
> deckboards are the same as my fencing and deck, second growth redwood,
> which I've watched expand with moisture by as much as a half inch
across
> a 12" wide board.... that's what 4% , same number as the Forest Servive
> boys came up with....hmmmm,
>
> Well I stand down, go ahead build with redwood.
> But maybe do that test just to be sure.
>
> Rick
>
> cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> > In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
> > Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
> > will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> > shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> > will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
> > class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> > 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> > Bob Chamberland
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob,
My guess, (only a guess) is they tested clear old growth heart redwood.
Really premium stuff and hard to fine nowadays. I assumed Paul's
deckboards are the same as my fencing and deck, second growth redwood,
which I've watched expand with moisture by as much as a half inch across
a 12" wide board.... that's what 4% , same number as the Forest Servive
boys came up with....hmmmm,
Well I stand down, go ahead build with redwood.
But maybe do that test just to be sure.
Rick
cha62759@...wrote:
My guess, (only a guess) is they tested clear old growth heart redwood.
Really premium stuff and hard to fine nowadays. I assumed Paul's
deckboards are the same as my fencing and deck, second growth redwood,
which I've watched expand with moisture by as much as a half inch across
a 12" wide board.... that's what 4% , same number as the Forest Servive
boys came up with....hmmmm,
Well I stand down, go ahead build with redwood.
But maybe do that test just to be sure.
Rick
cha62759@...wrote:
> In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
> will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
> shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
> will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
> class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
> 4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
> Bob Chamberland
>
In a previous reply I suggested referring to the Forest Service Wood
Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
Bob Chamberland
Handbook concerning characteristic of wood. Referring to Chapter 3 you
will find that Redwood has some to the best numbers in reference to
shrinkage from green to ovendry and going the other way the numbers
will be less. Only Western Red Cedar and Northern White Cedar are in a
class with Redwood. Radial shrinkage is 2.6%, tangential shrinkage
4.4%, and volumetric 6.8%. Use your redwood.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, sctree <sctree@d...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> We've now heard good reports from a boat built of small strips and a
> spar made of redwood. But I'd still be concerned with dimensional
> stability of the sticks in the size you are proposing to use. Perhaps
> you could set up a little test. Glue a few short strips together add a
> cross piece (to simulate a frame), measure it carefully, toss it in a
> tub of water for a day or so, see what happens if water does get to the
> redwood... If it holds, go for it. If not, sell it to someone who
want's
> redwood and buy some locally appropriate lumber for you boatbuilding.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> Paul Lefebvre wrote:
>
> > Interesting point, Rick. I wonder if redwood would be sensitive to
> > humidity
> > changes in the air, if it's so sensitive to actual wetting? This
could
> > pose
> > problems in construction. I learned a hard lesson about wood
swelling and
> > shrinking when building my first strip kayak.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Paul Lefebvre,
> > older and hopefully wiser, but still occasionally coming up with new
> > 'stupid
> > boatbuilding tricks'
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul,
We've now heard good reports from a boat built of small strips and a
spar made of redwood. But I'd still be concerned with dimensional
stability of the sticks in the size you are proposing to use. Perhaps
you could set up a little test. Glue a few short strips together add a
cross piece (to simulate a frame), measure it carefully, toss it in a
tub of water for a day or so, see what happens if water does get to the
redwood... If it holds, go for it. If not, sell it to someone who want's
redwood and buy some locally appropriate lumber for you boatbuilding.
Rick
Paul Lefebvre wrote:
We've now heard good reports from a boat built of small strips and a
spar made of redwood. But I'd still be concerned with dimensional
stability of the sticks in the size you are proposing to use. Perhaps
you could set up a little test. Glue a few short strips together add a
cross piece (to simulate a frame), measure it carefully, toss it in a
tub of water for a day or so, see what happens if water does get to the
redwood... If it holds, go for it. If not, sell it to someone who want's
redwood and buy some locally appropriate lumber for you boatbuilding.
Rick
Paul Lefebvre wrote:
> Interesting point, Rick. I wonder if redwood would be sensitive to<snip>
> humidity
> changes in the air, if it's so sensitive to actual wetting? This could
> pose
> problems in construction. I learned a hard lesson about wood swelling and
> shrinking when building my first strip kayak.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Paul Lefebvre,
> older and hopefully wiser, but still occasionally coming up with new
> 'stupid
> boatbuilding tricks'
>
>
I know it's not the same thing as building a hull, but I built a 21'
sharpie mast from Redwood. Made from four pieces, scarfed together
and laminated:
http://www.fsanmiguel.com/boat/creamcheese/fall.html
You can see the scarfing process in the pictures. I ruined one plank
because I chipped a big chunk with my chisel. It's more brittle than
other woods I've worked with, including pine. The epoxy glue has held
it together like a charm. The mast has seen pleny of hard sailing and
I haven't had any problems with warping when we moved from a 7500 ft
altitude "alpine desert" in Colorado to the humid climate of the East
Coast.
As for choice of wood, I believe I read that Robb White likes to build
small boats with tulip tree (tulip poplar). *Everyone* will tell you
that this is not a boatbuilding wood, but I'd believe Robb White
first. I'd say that using epoxy changes the rules for what is
acceptable as boatbuilding wood.
Frank San Miguel
Landenberg, PA
sharpie mast from Redwood. Made from four pieces, scarfed together
and laminated:
http://www.fsanmiguel.com/boat/creamcheese/fall.html
You can see the scarfing process in the pictures. I ruined one plank
because I chipped a big chunk with my chisel. It's more brittle than
other woods I've worked with, including pine. The epoxy glue has held
it together like a charm. The mast has seen pleny of hard sailing and
I haven't had any problems with warping when we moved from a 7500 ft
altitude "alpine desert" in Colorado to the humid climate of the East
Coast.
As for choice of wood, I believe I read that Robb White likes to build
small boats with tulip tree (tulip poplar). *Everyone* will tell you
that this is not a boatbuilding wood, but I'd believe Robb White
first. I'd say that using epoxy changes the rules for what is
acceptable as boatbuilding wood.
Frank San Miguel
Landenberg, PA
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "max56537" <max56537@y...> wrote:
> I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being
> demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
> strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
> and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
> deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
> years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
> with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
I built my Kotick kayak from strips of
redwood, and store it outside here
in California. I have not noticed
any problems with swelling or shrinkage.
[Other than, the boat is heavier carrying
it back to the car after use, than it
weighed carrying it to the water before
use.]
I thought it was a nice wood to
work with, light weight, strong, a
somewhat brittle, but not a problem.
I ripped the redwood into 5/8" x 1/4"
strips. Here in California, it is the
cheapest light weight wood suitable for
strip building kayaks and canoes.
$45 bought enough for a Kotick I recall.
redwood, and store it outside here
in California. I have not noticed
any problems with swelling or shrinkage.
[Other than, the boat is heavier carrying
it back to the car after use, than it
weighed carrying it to the water before
use.]
I thought it was a nice wood to
work with, light weight, strong, a
somewhat brittle, but not a problem.
I ripped the redwood into 5/8" x 1/4"
strips. Here in California, it is the
cheapest light weight wood suitable for
strip building kayaks and canoes.
$45 bought enough for a Kotick I recall.
Interesting point, Rick. I wonder if redwood would be sensitive to humidity
changes in the air, if it's so sensitive to actual wetting? This could pose
problems in construction. I learned a hard lesson about wood swelling and
shrinking when building my first strip kayak.
I got a bunch of air-dried eastern cedar for free, salvaged sticks from the
truck stacks at a rather well-known boatbuilding lumberyard in NE Mass where
my dad used to work. It was pretty rough, about tripled the work involved to
build a boat with it, but the price was right and I had a fire under me to
get a boat. In my innocence I truly started from scratch, including drawing
the thing up myself (now I always buy plans!); I cut the forms, laid up the
hull, faired and glassed the outside, then excitedly pulled it off the mold
to sand and glass the inside. I was working in a rented 200-yr old
granite-block barn, on the shores of Buzzard's Bay in springtime - it sure
was a great setting for fancying oneself a real New England boatbuilder, and
all my friends would come by and take pictures of me hand-beveling every
strip, covered with curly shavings, squatting on a stool in the doorway of
that barn - but that place didn't really get warm until September with all
the thermal mass of those huge granite blocks, and with a dirt floor one
level below the loose plank floor, it was mighty damp too. It was a nice
warm Saturday outside when I set about sanding the interior of my hull, and
I was sick of shivering all the time in the dank barn with the beautiful
spring warmth almost within arm's reach outside those big doors, so I
dragged the hull out onto the grass to sand in the warmth of the sunlight.
Very bad idea! The fiberglass held the outside surface dimensionally stable,
but the heat dried the interior surface of the hull very quickly and it
curled up like an orange peel. Through the sanding dust on my glasses I was
slow to perceive the change as I concentrated on what I've since come to
know as the worst part of canoebuilding, sanding those inside curves. It
wasn't until I came back out after lunch (during which I'd left it sitting
face-up in the full sun!) that I noticed how radically it had curled inward
along its length. I took it back into the barn and left it there overnight,
but next day it still had quite a curl to it. For awhile I thought I'd have
to scrap the whole mess, but it gradually relaxed over the next week or so
in the dampness of the barn, with the mold profiles stuffed back in there to
help it along; I still permanently lost about an inch of beam and had a heck
of time springing it out to fasten the trimmed-down deck onto it. A few
years later, I gave that boat to a friend who was moving far, far away. Last
I heard, he's still using it and having a great time, but I wanted it out of
my sight!
I know canoes and kayaks have been built of redwood, I've seen 'em. But work
on those can go pretty quickly when one is determined (read 'obsessed'...) -
I usually go at it hard and get the inside sanded in a day, or at most two,
and get on with the glassing. But in a boat the size of chebacco, work is
likely to proceed much more slowly. So if this moisture issue is a serious
consideration, one might want to take great pains to maintain the
dimensional stability of the wood between glassing the outside and getting
the inside prepped for glass and epoxy encapsulation. Presumably there are
some fixed-dimension bulkheads that will help define the shape of the hull's
profile a certain points, but establishing a boatbuilding space with a
fairly consistent 'microclimate' might be a consideration for building a
boat of this size, with this kind of 'naturally seasoned' wood.
just a thought....
Paul Lefebvre,
older and hopefully wiser, but still occasionally coming up with new 'stupid
boatbuilding tricks'
-----Original Message-----
From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] appropiate use for salvaged redwood
My concern would be the huge dimensional change in redwood as it changes
moisture content. I live in the land of redwood fencing, every now and
again someone puts up a fence using old recycled fence boards without
spacing them properly. First rainstorm the boards swell overnight (a
1/2" for each 1"x12") and the fence buckles.
Even when glassing both sides there would be ways for moisture to get
in.. An exploding boat would not be a pretty sight.
Rick
changes in the air, if it's so sensitive to actual wetting? This could pose
problems in construction. I learned a hard lesson about wood swelling and
shrinking when building my first strip kayak.
I got a bunch of air-dried eastern cedar for free, salvaged sticks from the
truck stacks at a rather well-known boatbuilding lumberyard in NE Mass where
my dad used to work. It was pretty rough, about tripled the work involved to
build a boat with it, but the price was right and I had a fire under me to
get a boat. In my innocence I truly started from scratch, including drawing
the thing up myself (now I always buy plans!); I cut the forms, laid up the
hull, faired and glassed the outside, then excitedly pulled it off the mold
to sand and glass the inside. I was working in a rented 200-yr old
granite-block barn, on the shores of Buzzard's Bay in springtime - it sure
was a great setting for fancying oneself a real New England boatbuilder, and
all my friends would come by and take pictures of me hand-beveling every
strip, covered with curly shavings, squatting on a stool in the doorway of
that barn - but that place didn't really get warm until September with all
the thermal mass of those huge granite blocks, and with a dirt floor one
level below the loose plank floor, it was mighty damp too. It was a nice
warm Saturday outside when I set about sanding the interior of my hull, and
I was sick of shivering all the time in the dank barn with the beautiful
spring warmth almost within arm's reach outside those big doors, so I
dragged the hull out onto the grass to sand in the warmth of the sunlight.
Very bad idea! The fiberglass held the outside surface dimensionally stable,
but the heat dried the interior surface of the hull very quickly and it
curled up like an orange peel. Through the sanding dust on my glasses I was
slow to perceive the change as I concentrated on what I've since come to
know as the worst part of canoebuilding, sanding those inside curves. It
wasn't until I came back out after lunch (during which I'd left it sitting
face-up in the full sun!) that I noticed how radically it had curled inward
along its length. I took it back into the barn and left it there overnight,
but next day it still had quite a curl to it. For awhile I thought I'd have
to scrap the whole mess, but it gradually relaxed over the next week or so
in the dampness of the barn, with the mold profiles stuffed back in there to
help it along; I still permanently lost about an inch of beam and had a heck
of time springing it out to fasten the trimmed-down deck onto it. A few
years later, I gave that boat to a friend who was moving far, far away. Last
I heard, he's still using it and having a great time, but I wanted it out of
my sight!
I know canoes and kayaks have been built of redwood, I've seen 'em. But work
on those can go pretty quickly when one is determined (read 'obsessed'...) -
I usually go at it hard and get the inside sanded in a day, or at most two,
and get on with the glassing. But in a boat the size of chebacco, work is
likely to proceed much more slowly. So if this moisture issue is a serious
consideration, one might want to take great pains to maintain the
dimensional stability of the wood between glassing the outside and getting
the inside prepped for glass and epoxy encapsulation. Presumably there are
some fixed-dimension bulkheads that will help define the shape of the hull's
profile a certain points, but establishing a boatbuilding space with a
fairly consistent 'microclimate' might be a consideration for building a
boat of this size, with this kind of 'naturally seasoned' wood.
just a thought....
Paul Lefebvre,
older and hopefully wiser, but still occasionally coming up with new 'stupid
boatbuilding tricks'
-----Original Message-----
From: sctree [mailto:sctree@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] appropiate use for salvaged redwood
My concern would be the huge dimensional change in redwood as it changes
moisture content. I live in the land of redwood fencing, every now and
again someone puts up a fence using old recycled fence boards without
spacing them properly. First rainstorm the boards swell overnight (a
1/2" for each 1"x12") and the fence buckles.
Even when glassing both sides there would be ways for moisture to get
in.. An exploding boat would not be a pretty sight.
Rick
My concern would be the huge dimensional change in redwood as it changes
moisture content. I live in the land of redwood fencing, every now and
again someone puts up a fence using old recycled fence boards without
spacing them properly. First rainstorm the boards swell overnight (a
1/2" for each 1"x12") and the fence buckles.
Even when glassing both sides there would be ways for moisture to get
in.. An exploding boat would not be a pretty sight.
Rick
max56537 wrote:
moisture content. I live in the land of redwood fencing, every now and
again someone puts up a fence using old recycled fence boards without
spacing them properly. First rainstorm the boards swell overnight (a
1/2" for each 1"x12") and the fence buckles.
Even when glassing both sides there would be ways for moisture to get
in.. An exploding boat would not be a pretty sight.
Rick
max56537 wrote:
> I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
> strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
> and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
> deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
> years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
> with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
>
>
Though I never built a whole hull from it, I've used some salvage redwood as
accent strips on some of my cedar strip kayaks and canoes; it's pretty nice
to work with, though quite brittle compared to cedar and other woods. It
glues just fine, and epoxy and glass has no trouble sticking to it. In your
case it'll be so seasoned it should be very easy to get stuff to stick to
it, providing the sealing applied when it was a deck didn't penetrate too
deeply.
Look at the grain of your planks - is it flat-grain now, allowing you to rip
vertical-grain strips from it? This is the strongest configuration for
stripping, and also easiest/most consistent to work with, as you are not
trying to sand broad variations in grain difference... If you're ripping
vertical strips out of 2x6's and especially if one edge is questionable due
to past staining/oiling, I'd heartily recommend doing a 'bead and cove' (or
bead and flute) edging on the strips using dedicated router bits (Google
'router canoe bit); it speeds work and makes the hull go together SO much
more nicely by helping greatly in the alignment of strips and facilitating
the inevitable 'butt joints' of too-short strips, increases the glueing
surfaces and decreases the volume of glue used by eliminating the filling of
poor-fitting bevels, eliminates tedious beveling of individual strips with a
block plane, greatly diminishes fairing labor, and makes for a much stronger
hull in the end. I've done it both ways, and would never go back - the
monetary investment in the router bits and the few hours setting up and
machining the wood pays huge dividends in time and materials once you start
building. My boats were all done with 1/4" strips, glassed inside and out,
and are so strong it's really overkill, yet are lightweight too - the last
18' kayak weighed 28 lbs before installing seat & hardware; a 17'6" canoe,
36" beam, weighed 52lbs completed, seats and all. I am not familiar with the
scantlings on a stripped chebacco, and realize the stresses on a sailing
chebacco are substantially more than in a canoe, but you might investigate
the tradeoffs of going with slightly thinner planks and glassing inside and
out. Having glass on both sides results in substantially more lateral
stiffness - night and day really, at least in my 1/4" boats. Particularly
with potentially brittle seasoned redwood, the resistance to splitting
provided by glassing inside and out would be a great benefit in withstanding
any impacts you may encounter in the life of the hull. Rip a few test strips
of different thicknesses and see how stable they are; edge-glue up some
short test profiles of a few strips at approximately the curve of the hull,
try breaking it with/without glass outside and inside/outside, etc... A
Chebacco is a pretty substantial undertaking, worth fiddling a bit with your
materials before you dive in.
best of luck!
Paul Lefebvre
-----Original Message-----
From: max56537 [mailto:max56537@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:00 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] appropiate use for salvaged redwood
I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being
demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Yahoo! Groups Links
accent strips on some of my cedar strip kayaks and canoes; it's pretty nice
to work with, though quite brittle compared to cedar and other woods. It
glues just fine, and epoxy and glass has no trouble sticking to it. In your
case it'll be so seasoned it should be very easy to get stuff to stick to
it, providing the sealing applied when it was a deck didn't penetrate too
deeply.
Look at the grain of your planks - is it flat-grain now, allowing you to rip
vertical-grain strips from it? This is the strongest configuration for
stripping, and also easiest/most consistent to work with, as you are not
trying to sand broad variations in grain difference... If you're ripping
vertical strips out of 2x6's and especially if one edge is questionable due
to past staining/oiling, I'd heartily recommend doing a 'bead and cove' (or
bead and flute) edging on the strips using dedicated router bits (Google
'router canoe bit); it speeds work and makes the hull go together SO much
more nicely by helping greatly in the alignment of strips and facilitating
the inevitable 'butt joints' of too-short strips, increases the glueing
surfaces and decreases the volume of glue used by eliminating the filling of
poor-fitting bevels, eliminates tedious beveling of individual strips with a
block plane, greatly diminishes fairing labor, and makes for a much stronger
hull in the end. I've done it both ways, and would never go back - the
monetary investment in the router bits and the few hours setting up and
machining the wood pays huge dividends in time and materials once you start
building. My boats were all done with 1/4" strips, glassed inside and out,
and are so strong it's really overkill, yet are lightweight too - the last
18' kayak weighed 28 lbs before installing seat & hardware; a 17'6" canoe,
36" beam, weighed 52lbs completed, seats and all. I am not familiar with the
scantlings on a stripped chebacco, and realize the stresses on a sailing
chebacco are substantially more than in a canoe, but you might investigate
the tradeoffs of going with slightly thinner planks and glassing inside and
out. Having glass on both sides results in substantially more lateral
stiffness - night and day really, at least in my 1/4" boats. Particularly
with potentially brittle seasoned redwood, the resistance to splitting
provided by glassing inside and out would be a great benefit in withstanding
any impacts you may encounter in the life of the hull. Rip a few test strips
of different thicknesses and see how stable they are; edge-glue up some
short test profiles of a few strips at approximately the curve of the hull,
try breaking it with/without glass outside and inside/outside, etc... A
Chebacco is a pretty substantial undertaking, worth fiddling a bit with your
materials before you dive in.
best of luck!
Paul Lefebvre
-----Original Message-----
From: max56537 [mailto:max56537@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:00 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] appropiate use for salvaged redwood
I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being
demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
>Would exopy bond properly? TheTry some test strips.
>deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
>years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
>with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
Don't glass both sides, just the outside. You can epoxy coat the inner
sides if you like. Opinion varies on this.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
If I were using redwood strips, assuming the 1/2"dimension was the
thickness of the hull, I would use fairly heavy fiberglass cloth on
the outside. I would ask your epoxy supplier about adhesion to redwood
but I don't think there is a problem there. I would resurface all four
faces ie plane the 2x6's and of course the other surfaces would be saw
cuts. Redwood is a fairly brittle wood and is "slivery". I think I
would want the hull 3/4" thick.
Bob Chamberland
thickness of the hull, I would use fairly heavy fiberglass cloth on
the outside. I would ask your epoxy supplier about adhesion to redwood
but I don't think there is a problem there. I would resurface all four
faces ie plane the 2x6's and of course the other surfaces would be saw
cuts. Redwood is a fairly brittle wood and is "slivery". I think I
would want the hull 3/4" thick.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "max56537" <max56537@y...> wrote:
> I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being
> demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
> strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
> and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
> deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
> years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
> with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
I have salvaged alot of redwood from a deck that was being
demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?
demolished. Most of the lumber is 2X6. Could I rip this down into
strips that would be one and a half inch wide and one half inch thick
and use it for a hull of a Chebacco? Would exopy bond properly? The
deck had been treated with Olympic Stain but not for quite a few
years. Would strength be adequate with fiberglass on just one side as
with a plywood hull or should I glass both sides?