Re: [bolger] Re: inboard engines - gasoline
--- Nels wrote:
waterproof fabric, but the velcro,
and the replaceable screen is a
clever idea. Thanks.
When motoring, you want to stop fumes,
but at all other times you want air
to flow through the cabin, from the
forward vent to the back.
> For a protective cover forI had been thinking of a cone shaped
> the tiller and slot, I
> would suggest...a funnel shaped
> sleeve of coated nylon that fits
> around the slot
>...attached to the
> slot with velcro it could be removable
> and/or even replaceable with
> one made of no-see-um netting
> for increased ventilation.
waterproof fabric, but the velcro,
and the replaceable screen is a
clever idea. Thanks.
When motoring, you want to stop fumes,
but at all other times you want air
to flow through the cabin, from the
forward vent to the back.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
living aboard a boat for a length of time. Also being lazy when it
comes to cleaning up:-) I believe he also includes bugs and water
into this fixation as well. He is very paranoid about through-hull
openings for example.
I visualize his cabin layouts as seperate "space capsules" from the
outside world, which can become hostile at times - and an outer
protective shell - shaped more or less like a boat.
For a protective cover for the tiller and slot, I would suggest the
idea of a spray skirt like kayakers have around their waists. Or the
sleeve and cuff of a dry suit that some wear. In other words, a
funnel shaped sleeve of coated nylon that fits around the slot
opening, with a narrow opening that fits around the tiller. The
narrow opening could be finished off with either a bungee-cord
closure (Like a stuff sack) or a neopreme gasket.
This would keep out fumes, bugs, and water. If it was attached to the
slot with velcro it could be removable and/or even replaceable with
one made of no-see-um netting for increased ventilation. But that
would likely be overkill when you have all that ventilation in the
cabin.
Cheers, Nels
> What is the origin of Bolger's fixationI expect keeping mud and gas out of the living area is the result of
> of keeping gasoline [and CO] fumes out
> of the cabin? Probably, he has seen
> the results of too many accidents.
>
> To this end, I am struggling to come
> up with a gas tight detail that allows
> the tiller in Micro Navigator to swing
> though the aft cabin bulkhead slot.
living aboard a boat for a length of time. Also being lazy when it
comes to cleaning up:-) I believe he also includes bugs and water
into this fixation as well. He is very paranoid about through-hull
openings for example.
I visualize his cabin layouts as seperate "space capsules" from the
outside world, which can become hostile at times - and an outer
protective shell - shaped more or less like a boat.
For a protective cover for the tiller and slot, I would suggest the
idea of a spray skirt like kayakers have around their waists. Or the
sleeve and cuff of a dry suit that some wear. In other words, a
funnel shaped sleeve of coated nylon that fits around the slot
opening, with a narrow opening that fits around the tiller. The
narrow opening could be finished off with either a bungee-cord
closure (Like a stuff sack) or a neopreme gasket.
This would keep out fumes, bugs, and water. If it was attached to the
slot with velcro it could be removable and/or even replaceable with
one made of no-see-um netting for increased ventilation. But that
would likely be overkill when you have all that ventilation in the
cabin.
Cheers, Nels
If I'm not mistaken, looking back to the original question, the issue of
safety was not raised as a debate between diesel and gas, but simply the
necessary and sometimes costly precautions one must take to marinize an auto
engine (e.g. Geo) to be a safe engine. For example, to make an auto engine
safe by USCG standards the minimum should be done: swap to marine carburetor
(the marine carburetor is designed so that the float bowl doesn't vent into
the engine compartment); swap fuel pump (designed to contain the fuel in
the event of a ruptured diaphragm); convert to a marine starter and
alternator that will have flame suppression; distributor with flame
arrester. Also, change the Air Filter to a USCG Flash suppression type. The
need for these and other modifications (cams and pistons) may cost the
conversion to an equivant Atomic or the like.
In terms of safety marine diesel to marine gas, it is simply a fact that gas
has a lower flash point than diesel. In terms of economy and fuel capacity,
diesel burns more efficient than gas. Taking these considerations in mind,
the proper installation, e.g. sound dampening, cooling, and exhaust routing
can make either of the choices appropriate based on the requirements. Any
of the shortcomings of diesel or gas can be mitigated with proper
installation.
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safety was not raised as a debate between diesel and gas, but simply the
necessary and sometimes costly precautions one must take to marinize an auto
engine (e.g. Geo) to be a safe engine. For example, to make an auto engine
safe by USCG standards the minimum should be done: swap to marine carburetor
(the marine carburetor is designed so that the float bowl doesn't vent into
the engine compartment); swap fuel pump (designed to contain the fuel in
the event of a ruptured diaphragm); convert to a marine starter and
alternator that will have flame suppression; distributor with flame
arrester. Also, change the Air Filter to a USCG Flash suppression type. The
need for these and other modifications (cams and pistons) may cost the
conversion to an equivant Atomic or the like.
In terms of safety marine diesel to marine gas, it is simply a fact that gas
has a lower flash point than diesel. In terms of economy and fuel capacity,
diesel burns more efficient than gas. Taking these considerations in mind,
the proper installation, e.g. sound dampening, cooling, and exhaust routing
can make either of the choices appropriate based on the requirements. Any
of the shortcomings of diesel or gas can be mitigated with proper
installation.
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
I agree. The key he is to have a mind set of safety. The 2002 statics say the majority of people die on the water from capsizing and falling over board (over 400) while fire/explosions(fuel)resulted in 4 death I do not know if any of those fires were diesel (diesel does burn). But even one death is too many and that safety mind set will always reduce accidents.
These things are easy for a old man to say but I remember long ago when I mixed alcohol and testosterone. What can I say the good Lord takes care of children and fools so I am alive and wiser now and there were no accidents. Think of how many lives those good madd mothers have saved on the road and on the water.
Even though I believe in safety I am not going to put a stinking loud diesel in a open pleasure boat, I tolerant it in my Tug because I need the power and it is a work boat.
Here is a interesting site showing the accidents of 2002 and other safety items. Lon
http://www.commanderbob.com/cbstats.html
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These things are easy for a old man to say but I remember long ago when I mixed alcohol and testosterone. What can I say the good Lord takes care of children and fools so I am alive and wiser now and there were no accidents. Think of how many lives those good madd mothers have saved on the road and on the water.
Even though I believe in safety I am not going to put a stinking loud diesel in a open pleasure boat, I tolerant it in my Tug because I need the power and it is a work boat.
Here is a interesting site showing the accidents of 2002 and other safety items. Lon
http://www.commanderbob.com/cbstats.html
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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This morning I heard an ad on the radio for Ocean State Job Lot, a local
liquidator chain, selling 'carports' for $179 - supposed normal price is
$479. I went to check them out and ended up getting one. White powder-coated
steel frame, white tarp that seems like extra-heavyduty polytarp
(unfortunately it's not that rubberized truck-tarp fabric of the REAL
expensive ones, but then it won't be dark inside either...), 20' x 10' by 9'
tall at center, looks like 6' tall at the sides. It appears to come with
with side and back panels and a roll-up front door, I thought it'd be nice
to roll the sides up for sanding, roll them down to paint or on rainy days.
It's pretty substantial - must weigh about 200 lbs in the box, and I needed
help getting it into my van. The garage was pretty cramped and made
everything else complicated last fall when I had the Micro in there, so I'd
been planning on either something like this or building a Stinson Marine
shelter, am hoping this will save me most of that build time, and probably
would come out about even on the cost as well.
So I thought I'd put the word out in case anyone in the group has a OS Job
Lot nearby and is looking for a relatively cheap, quick boatbuilding
shelter.
Paul Lefebvre
liquidator chain, selling 'carports' for $179 - supposed normal price is
$479. I went to check them out and ended up getting one. White powder-coated
steel frame, white tarp that seems like extra-heavyduty polytarp
(unfortunately it's not that rubberized truck-tarp fabric of the REAL
expensive ones, but then it won't be dark inside either...), 20' x 10' by 9'
tall at center, looks like 6' tall at the sides. It appears to come with
with side and back panels and a roll-up front door, I thought it'd be nice
to roll the sides up for sanding, roll them down to paint or on rainy days.
It's pretty substantial - must weigh about 200 lbs in the box, and I needed
help getting it into my van. The garage was pretty cramped and made
everything else complicated last fall when I had the Micro in there, so I'd
been planning on either something like this or building a Stinson Marine
shelter, am hoping this will save me most of that build time, and probably
would come out about even on the cost as well.
So I thought I'd put the word out in case anyone in the group has a OS Job
Lot nearby and is looking for a relatively cheap, quick boatbuilding
shelter.
Paul Lefebvre
No, inboards. I forgot to put that qualifier in. Just about every small
_inboard_ motorboat has a converted automobile gasoline engine in it. Add
outboard powered boats to the list and the proportion is even more
overwhelming.
_inboard_ motorboat has a converted automobile gasoline engine in it. Add
outboard powered boats to the list and the proportion is even more
overwhelming.
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:49:38 +0800, Bruce Fountain wrote:
> jhkohnen wrote:
> > Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (and
> > that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't
> read
> > about them blowing up left and right all over the place
>
> Presumably you are referring to outboard engines, which is
> hardly the same thing as an engine sitting in the bilge.
>
> Maybe I am unreasonably fearful, but the idea of a petrol
> engine and a stove sharing the same air scares the bejesus
> out of me.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
It s a damn poor mind that can think of only one way to spell a word!
<Attributed to Andrew Jackson>
FWIW, PB&F certainly believe that
keeping gasoline [and mud] outside
the cabin is a high priority.
This is a recurring theme of theirs.
Common sense in boat design, but
not [I recall] of LF Herreshoff? :/
What is the origin of Bolger's fixation
of keeping gasoline [and CO] fumes out
of the cabin? Probably, he has seen
the results of too many accidents.
To this end, I am struggling to come
up with a gas tight detail that allows
the tiller in Micro Navigator to swing
though the aft cabin bulkhead slot.
keeping gasoline [and mud] outside
the cabin is a high priority.
This is a recurring theme of theirs.
Common sense in boat design, but
not [I recall] of LF Herreshoff? :/
What is the origin of Bolger's fixation
of keeping gasoline [and CO] fumes out
of the cabin? Probably, he has seen
the results of too many accidents.
To this end, I am struggling to come
up with a gas tight detail that allows
the tiller in Micro Navigator to swing
though the aft cabin bulkhead slot.
For more than 10 years now I have done all my boating in
inboard powered boats. Neither I or my boating friends
have had a gasoline related problem in that time. We have
all seen pictures of burning boats so bad things do happen.
In my opinion gas powered boats are safe as long as the
fuel and electrical systems are maintained religiously.
The fuel system and all engine electrical parts should
be marinized. before starting my engine I run the bilge
blower. I sniff the bilge blower exhaust vent and if I
smell gas I don't start the engine. Hasn't happened yet.
Now the thought of a leak from an alcohol or
propane stove on a boat, that scares me.
hal
inboard powered boats. Neither I or my boating friends
have had a gasoline related problem in that time. We have
all seen pictures of burning boats so bad things do happen.
In my opinion gas powered boats are safe as long as the
fuel and electrical systems are maintained religiously.
The fuel system and all engine electrical parts should
be marinized. before starting my engine I run the bilge
blower. I sniff the bilge blower exhaust vent and if I
smell gas I don't start the engine. Hasn't happened yet.
Now the thought of a leak from an alcohol or
propane stove on a boat, that scares me.
hal
On Mar 24, 2004, at 8:49 PM,fountainb@...wrote:
> jhkohnen wrote:
>> Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (and
>> that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't
> read
>> about them blowing up left and right all over the place
>
> Presumably you are referring to outboard engines, which is
> hardly the same thing as an engine sitting in the bilge.
>
> Maybe I am unreasonably fearful, but the idea of a petrol
> engine and a stove sharing the same air scares the bejesus
out of me.
While explosions are certainly possible, they're not automatic. A house I
owned in Vestal, NY, had the car parked beside the furnace and water heater
in the basement. It had gone 20 years with no problems.
The only time it scared me was the night I filled the tank on the way home.
The warmth expanded the gasoline and caused it to flow out on the floor. No
boom. Lucky.
It sure was nice getting into a warm car in the morning when it was ten
degrees F outside.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
owned in Vestal, NY, had the car parked beside the furnace and water heater
in the basement. It had gone 20 years with no problems.
The only time it scared me was the night I filled the tank on the way home.
The warmth expanded the gasoline and caused it to flow out on the floor. No
boom. Lucky.
It sure was nice getting into a warm car in the morning when it was ten
degrees F outside.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <fountainb@...>
> jhkohnen wrote:
> > Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (and
> > that's most of them) in this country have gas
> > engines, and you don't read
> > about them blowing up left and right all over
> > the place
>
> Presumably you are referring to outboard engines,
> which is hardly the same thing as an engine sitting
> in the bilge.
>
> Maybe I am unreasonably fearful, but the idea of a
> petrol engine and a stove sharing the same air scares
> the bejesus out of me.
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia
jhkohnen@...wrote:
And then, at anchor in some secluded place - happy with the world - you
happen to look down into the bottom of the bilge and see just a little
scum of floating gasoline from maybe a loosened fuel fitting or maybe
from a leaking gas tank and feel the hair on the top of your head
literally stand up because you know that you have just lit up the galley
stove or even a cigarette.
You will suddenly develop such a deep understanding of the need for
diesel engines that all future prattle about the virtues of gasoline
will forever hence roll off your back like water from a duck's back.
My own understanding arrived on a lovely September morning, years ago,
aboard an ancient catboat, my first large sailboat, at anchor in
Tarpaulin Cove, with an Atomic four and a rusted through fuel tank. I
had just lit up a cigarette and looked down to find the ashtray and saw
the floating gasoline through the space between the boat's floorboards.
No disaster happened that day over forty years ago. But I've never
sailed with that awful stuff on board below again.
Jim
Jim
> One "safety" factor the sailboaters talk about is the stink of aThere is truth in all that. Consider the point given.
> diesel. If
> there's an exhaust leak, the stink will tell you before you get
> asphyxiated.
> I suppose they'd think another safety feature of a diesel is that you
> won't
> accidentally wander off and leave the engine running, because the
> noise and
> vibration will warn you that it's still going. ;o) The fear sailboater
> have
> of gasoline is a bit neurotic. Almost all the small pleasure
> motorboats (and
> that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't read
> about them blowing up left and right all over the place. Maybe there's a
> conspiracy of the gas engine makers to keep all those accidents hush hush.
> <g>
>
And then, at anchor in some secluded place - happy with the world - you
happen to look down into the bottom of the bilge and see just a little
scum of floating gasoline from maybe a loosened fuel fitting or maybe
from a leaking gas tank and feel the hair on the top of your head
literally stand up because you know that you have just lit up the galley
stove or even a cigarette.
You will suddenly develop such a deep understanding of the need for
diesel engines that all future prattle about the virtues of gasoline
will forever hence roll off your back like water from a duck's back.
My own understanding arrived on a lovely September morning, years ago,
aboard an ancient catboat, my first large sailboat, at anchor in
Tarpaulin Cove, with an Atomic four and a rusted through fuel tank. I
had just lit up a cigarette and looked down to find the ashtray and saw
the floating gasoline through the space between the boat's floorboards.
No disaster happened that day over forty years ago. But I've never
sailed with that awful stuff on board below again.
Jim
Jim
jhkohnen wrote:
hardly the same thing as an engine sitting in the bilge.
Maybe I am unreasonably fearful, but the idea of a petrol
engine and a stove sharing the same air scares the bejesus
out of me.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (andread
> that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't
> about them blowing up left and right all over the placePresumably you are referring to outboard engines, which is
hardly the same thing as an engine sitting in the bilge.
Maybe I am unreasonably fearful, but the idea of a petrol
engine and a stove sharing the same air scares the bejesus
out of me.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
One "safety" factor the sailboaters talk about is the stink of a diesel. If
there's an exhaust leak, the stink will tell you before you get asphyxiated.
I suppose they'd think another safety feature of a diesel is that you won't
accidentally wander off and leave the engine running, because the noise and
vibration will warn you that it's still going. ;o) The fear sailboater have
of gasoline is a bit neurotic. Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (and
that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't read
about them blowing up left and right all over the place. Maybe there's a
conspiracy of the gas engine makers to keep all those accidents hush hush.
<g>
One nice thing about getting an Atomic Four is that it'll most likley come
with a reverse gear. One problem might be that it'll also have a gear
reduction. For a shallow draft boat you want a small, fast turning
propeller.
there's an exhaust leak, the stink will tell you before you get asphyxiated.
I suppose they'd think another safety feature of a diesel is that you won't
accidentally wander off and leave the engine running, because the noise and
vibration will warn you that it's still going. ;o) The fear sailboater have
of gasoline is a bit neurotic. Almost all the small pleasure motorboats (and
that's most of them) in this country have gas engines, and you don't read
about them blowing up left and right all over the place. Maybe there's a
conspiracy of the gas engine makers to keep all those accidents hush hush.
<g>
One nice thing about getting an Atomic Four is that it'll most likley come
with a reverse gear. One problem might be that it'll also have a gear
reduction. For a shallow draft boat you want a small, fast turning
propeller.
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:35:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time), Wayne Gilham wrote:
> The equivalent of Bukh Diesels in one regard is the old Universal Atomic
> Four -- as (like Bukh) it's one of the only engines that was built from the
> outset as a MARINE engine, not a conversion of a tractor or automobile
> engine. There's hundreds of them for the asking, as many '70's sailboats
> came with 'em, and the vogue now is to re-power with a shaking smelly diesel
> (for safety, they say....)
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
As for myself, the wonderful sea charmed me from the first.
<Joshua Slocum>
> There's hundreds of them for the asking, as many '70's sailboatsThere is a comment on one of the Atomic 4 websites that the loss of
> came with 'em, and the vogue now is to re-power with a shaking
> smelly diesel (for safety, they say....)
life due to explosion on Atomic 4 equipped boats is (I don't remember
exactly) either zero or one, since about 1950. With proper use, it is
a safe engine.
Peter
The equivalent of Bukh Diesels in one regard is the old Universal Atomic
Four -- as (like Bukh) it's one of the only engines that was built from the
outset as a MARINE engine, not a conversion of a tractor or automobile
engine. There's hundreds of them for the asking, as many '70's sailboats
came with 'em, and the vogue now is to re-power with a shaking smelly diesel
(for safety, they say....)
There's LOTS of website info on this engine, and still many parts, even
possibility to buy a totally-rebuilt one. Google away, you'll find the
(re)sources.
Here's one site, lots of info, good photos (in Vancouver BC - offers total
rebuilds!)
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/
and look also at the Triton (that's Pearson Triton) owners' website - great
pages on Atomic 4 there.
If you go for a used one, try to find one that's been only used in
fresh-water, OR one with the "fresh-water cooling" system, as the blocks are
notorious to "salt-up" their cooling passages.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Four -- as (like Bukh) it's one of the only engines that was built from the
outset as a MARINE engine, not a conversion of a tractor or automobile
engine. There's hundreds of them for the asking, as many '70's sailboats
came with 'em, and the vogue now is to re-power with a shaking smelly diesel
(for safety, they say....)
There's LOTS of website info on this engine, and still many parts, even
possibility to buy a totally-rebuilt one. Google away, you'll find the
(re)sources.
Here's one site, lots of info, good photos (in Vancouver BC - offers total
rebuilds!)
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/
and look also at the Triton (that's Pearson Triton) owners' website - great
pages on Atomic 4 there.
If you go for a used one, try to find one that's been only used in
fresh-water, OR one with the "fresh-water cooling" system, as the blocks are
notorious to "salt-up" their cooling passages.
Regards,
Wayne Gilham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]