[bolger] Re: knockdowns strategies, general
BO>Bolgeristas,
BO> The Martha Jane which I sailed for two years (now owned by Ed Haile) was
BO>definitely more stable when she was moving fast. And she seemed to react to
BO>a gust by tending to head up-which was comforting. Phil Bolger wrote
BO>somewhere that when a boat heels sharply to a gust, the helmsman should
BO>resist his inclination to let the sheets go and instead should head up.
Er...are you sure this is right? Heading up to avoid a potential
knockdown is a disaster in the Light Schooner, and not a pleasant
experience in the AS29 either. In the first case, the boat heels even
harder, the rudder acts as a horizontal, not vertical, plane (aaOOgah
aaOOgah, dive! dive!), and lo - boat and crew are on their side in the
water. Even with the AS29, heading up in a potential knockdown heels
the boat even harder - bearing off brings the boat up and releases the
pressure on the crew, even if speed does double. Can't be done hard on
a lee shore, of course...
In this respect, both the LS and the SquareBoat work like catamarans,
where you =always= bear away when faced with a potential
knockdown/flipover.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO> The Martha Jane which I sailed for two years (now owned by Ed Haile) was
BO>definitely more stable when she was moving fast. And she seemed to react to
BO>a gust by tending to head up-which was comforting. Phil Bolger wrote
BO>somewhere that when a boat heels sharply to a gust, the helmsman should
BO>resist his inclination to let the sheets go and instead should head up.
Er...are you sure this is right? Heading up to avoid a potential
knockdown is a disaster in the Light Schooner, and not a pleasant
experience in the AS29 either. In the first case, the boat heels even
harder, the rudder acts as a horizontal, not vertical, plane (aaOOgah
aaOOgah, dive! dive!), and lo - boat and crew are on their side in the
water. Even with the AS29, heading up in a potential knockdown heels
the boat even harder - bearing off brings the boat up and releases the
pressure on the crew, even if speed does double. Can't be done hard on
a lee shore, of course...
In this respect, both the LS and the SquareBoat work like catamarans,
where you =always= bear away when faced with a potential
knockdown/flipover.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
In a message dated 3/9/2000 8:57:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wjochems@...writes:
<< A couple of times when I fell off instead, the wind picked up to the
point where I was really racing down wind >>
I have noticed that high speed running in mj can be terrifying! Like riding a
surf board.
What about your experience with a double reef - did you use the mizzen as
well? Steve
wjochems@...writes:
<< A couple of times when I fell off instead, the wind picked up to the
point where I was really racing down wind >>
I have noticed that high speed running in mj can be terrifying! Like riding a
surf board.
What about your experience with a double reef - did you use the mizzen as
well? Steve
Steve, I would head up to the point where the main started to luff but still
had enough drive to keep the boat moving well. This relieved heeling until
the gust was past. If the wind kept increasing, I was then in a position to
sheet the mizzen in flat, release the main sheet and then reduce the main
further, or lower it completely.
A couple of times when I fell off instead, the wind picked up to the
point where I was really racing down wind. Changing from that state to one
where I could reduce or lower the main provided the scariest moments of all.
Most of my sailing has been on desert lakes subject to unusually quick
variations in the wind. A Lake Mead weather forecast, for example, might be
"SW winds 15-25mph with gusts to 55". I consider myself a pretty good
amateur boat builder but far from an expert sailor and these were simply my
experiences.
Bill Jochems
-----Original Message-----
From:Hwal@...<Hwal@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com<bolger@egroups.com>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 5:50 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: knockdowns strategies, general
had enough drive to keep the boat moving well. This relieved heeling until
the gust was past. If the wind kept increasing, I was then in a position to
sheet the mizzen in flat, release the main sheet and then reduce the main
further, or lower it completely.
A couple of times when I fell off instead, the wind picked up to the
point where I was really racing down wind. Changing from that state to one
where I could reduce or lower the main provided the scariest moments of all.
Most of my sailing has been on desert lakes subject to unusually quick
variations in the wind. A Lake Mead weather forecast, for example, might be
"SW winds 15-25mph with gusts to 55". I consider myself a pretty good
amateur boat builder but far from an expert sailor and these were simply my
experiences.
Bill Jochems
-----Original Message-----
From:Hwal@...<Hwal@...>
To:bolger@egroups.com<bolger@egroups.com>
Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 5:50 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: knockdowns strategies, general
>In a message dated 3/9/2000 6:49:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,time.
>tjfatchen@...writes:
>
><< Heading up to avoid a potential
> knockdown is a disaster in the Light Schooner, >>
>
>Wow - two expert opinions in opposite directions - one heading up and one
>down! I love it - you guys should come and sail Landroval! At the same
>What a riot that would be! I think you might both be right -sailed
>
>I've been thinking about bill's comment re. mj and stationary stablity.
>
>I think that it all depends on how much speed one has on. I have only
>my mj four times now - and my sense has been that she's much much moregot
>stable the faster she's moving. I think that heading up when under speed
>works - but if moving slowly heading up doesn't work.
>
>She is such a narrow boat - and so long - that's a lot of flat surface for
>the wind to push on when standing still and broadside to the wind. I would
>bet a lot that a 25 mph wind on the beam with the mizzen sheeted in tightly
>and the leeboard down would knock a mj down over and over again until you
>tired of trying. Under those circumstances - next time! I will uncleat theexperience
>mizzen - raise the leeboard half way to avoid tripping over it - drop the
>weather board and fall off. ( If I have time to do all those things!)
>
>Bill - ( good to have someone in the discussion with some sailing
>with mj ) how did you trim your mizzen when double reefed? somewhere alongsaturday
>the line we heard that mr. b. recommends sailing without the mizzen when
>double reefed - I still find that hard to accept - did you ever reef the
>mizzen by furling it aound the mast? (I rounded the bottom of my mast so it
>can be rotated in place)
>
>I suspect that if I had fallen off and run I would have been okay on
>- but trying to come up with the mizzen cleated at a low speed was the
>problem. In this respect there are some differences here from some other
>yawls - or ketches. Steve
>
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In a message dated 3/9/2000 6:49:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tjfatchen@...writes:
<< Heading up to avoid a potential
knockdown is a disaster in the Light Schooner, >>
Wow - two expert opinions in opposite directions - one heading up and one
down! I love it - you guys should come and sail Landroval! At the same time.
What a riot that would be! I think you might both be right -
I've been thinking about bill's comment re. mj and stationary stablity.
I think that it all depends on how much speed one has on. I have only sailed
my mj four times now - and my sense has been that she's much much more
stable the faster she's moving. I think that heading up when under speed
works - but if moving slowly heading up doesn't work.
She is such a narrow boat - and so long - that's a lot of flat surface for
the wind to push on when standing still and broadside to the wind. I would
bet a lot that a 25 mph wind on the beam with the mizzen sheeted in tightly
and the leeboard down would knock a mj down over and over again until you got
tired of trying. Under those circumstances - next time! I will uncleat the
mizzen - raise the leeboard half way to avoid tripping over it - drop the
weather board and fall off. ( If I have time to do all those things!)
Bill - ( good to have someone in the discussion with some sailing experience
with mj ) how did you trim your mizzen when double reefed? somewhere along
the line we heard that mr. b. recommends sailing without the mizzen when
double reefed - I still find that hard to accept - did you ever reef the
mizzen by furling it aound the mast? (I rounded the bottom of my mast so it
can be rotated in place)
I suspect that if I had fallen off and run I would have been okay on saturday
- but trying to come up with the mizzen cleated at a low speed was the
problem. In this respect there are some differences here from some other
yawls - or ketches. Steve
tjfatchen@...writes:
<< Heading up to avoid a potential
knockdown is a disaster in the Light Schooner, >>
Wow - two expert opinions in opposite directions - one heading up and one
down! I love it - you guys should come and sail Landroval! At the same time.
What a riot that would be! I think you might both be right -
I've been thinking about bill's comment re. mj and stationary stablity.
I think that it all depends on how much speed one has on. I have only sailed
my mj four times now - and my sense has been that she's much much more
stable the faster she's moving. I think that heading up when under speed
works - but if moving slowly heading up doesn't work.
She is such a narrow boat - and so long - that's a lot of flat surface for
the wind to push on when standing still and broadside to the wind. I would
bet a lot that a 25 mph wind on the beam with the mizzen sheeted in tightly
and the leeboard down would knock a mj down over and over again until you got
tired of trying. Under those circumstances - next time! I will uncleat the
mizzen - raise the leeboard half way to avoid tripping over it - drop the
weather board and fall off. ( If I have time to do all those things!)
Bill - ( good to have someone in the discussion with some sailing experience
with mj ) how did you trim your mizzen when double reefed? somewhere along
the line we heard that mr. b. recommends sailing without the mizzen when
double reefed - I still find that hard to accept - did you ever reef the
mizzen by furling it aound the mast? (I rounded the bottom of my mast so it
can be rotated in place)
I suspect that if I had fallen off and run I would have been okay on saturday
- but trying to come up with the mizzen cleated at a low speed was the
problem. In this respect there are some differences here from some other
yawls - or ketches. Steve