Re: [bolger] Re: Kick-up rudder hold-down solution

Jm Michalak's designs frequently feature a kick uo rudder with a lead weight. The one I have works fine. Hit an obstruction and the rudder rises; pass over it ans the rudder drops back down. As i recall, there is about 4 lbs of lead in the rudder.

John T
----- Original Message -----
From: dnjost
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:52 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Kick-up rudder hold-down solution



Bill -
I can't believe someone else in this group has experience with an
Enterprise!!!

I have one sitting upside down on blocks in the yard that we have
faithfully sailed since 1968. You are right, the solution works
well as long as the bungee is fresh. Once stretched, it can cause
all kinds of problems as shown by the 6" tiller I have that was once
2.5 feet long. Still a great boat, as long as you are not the crew
member being decapitated by the vang.

Oops Bolger post...Gypsy could be as much fun I suppose.

david jost :-)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Is the common solution of a length of bungee cord led up from the
leading edge of the rudder to a jamming cleat not possible in this
case? It seems to me to be the lowest tech solution, works well for
generations of sailing dinghies (Wayfarers, Mirrors, Enterprises and
so on) and, best of all, costs only pennies. I've used it on all my
sailing dinghies over the years and it's never let me down.
>
> I can't understand why Payson/Bolger advise unsightly excrescences
like giant, home-made wing-nuts and the like. Do they WANT the
boats to look comical?
>
> Bill (a.k.a. the Grumpy Old Man)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Philip Smith
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Kick-up rudder hold-down solution
>
>
> > I forget where I read of this idea [I think from SA]
> >
> > Drill a hole through the top and bottom piece of the
> > rudder and insert
> > a small dowel [a pencil works]. When the rudder
> > hits something
> > hard, the pencil shears off and the rudder kicks up.
> >
>
> ]





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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill -
I can't believe someone else in this group has experience with an
Enterprise!!!

I have one sitting upside down on blocks in the yard that we have
faithfully sailed since 1968. You are right, the solution works
well as long as the bungee is fresh. Once stretched, it can cause
all kinds of problems as shown by the 6" tiller I have that was once
2.5 feet long. Still a great boat, as long as you are not the crew
member being decapitated by the vang.

Oops Bolger post...Gypsy could be as much fun I suppose.

david jost :-)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Is the common solution of a length of bungee cord led up from the
leading edge of the rudder to a jamming cleat not possible in this
case? It seems to me to be the lowest tech solution, works well for
generations of sailing dinghies (Wayfarers, Mirrors, Enterprises and
so on) and, best of all, costs only pennies. I've used it on all my
sailing dinghies over the years and it's never let me down.
>
> I can't understand why Payson/Bolger advise unsightly excrescences
like giant, home-made wing-nuts and the like. Do they WANT the
boats to look comical?
>
> Bill (a.k.a. the Grumpy Old Man)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Philip Smith
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Kick-up rudder hold-down solution
>
>
> > I forget where I read of this idea [I think from SA]
> >
> > Drill a hole through the top and bottom piece of the
> > rudder and insert
> > a small dowel [a pencil works]. When the rudder
> > hits something
> > hard, the pencil shears off and the rudder kicks up.
> >
>
> ]
Is the common solution of a length of bungee cord led up from the leading edge of the rudder to a jamming cleat not possible in this case? It seems to me to be the lowest tech solution, works well for generations of sailing dinghies (Wayfarers, Mirrors, Enterprises and so on) and, best of all, costs only pennies. I've used it on all my sailing dinghies over the years and it's never let me down.

I can't understand why Payson/Bolger advise unsightly excrescences like giant, home-made wing-nuts and the like. Do they WANT the boats to look comical?

Bill (a.k.a. the Grumpy Old Man)
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Smith
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Kick-up rudder hold-down solution


> I forget where I read of this idea [I think from SA]
>
> Drill a hole through the top and bottom piece of the
> rudder and insert
> a small dowel [a pencil works]. When the rudder
> hits something
> hard, the pencil shears off and the rudder kicks up.
>

Phil Bolger recommends this method for the rudder trap
door on Martha Jane.

Phil Smith


Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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ADVERTISEMENT





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I forget where I read of this idea [I think from SA]
>
> Drill a hole through the top and bottom piece of the
> rudder and insert
> a small dowel [a pencil works]. When the rudder
> hits something
> hard, the pencil shears off and the rudder kicks up.
>

Phil Bolger recommends this method for the rudder trap
door on Martha Jane.

Phil Smith
> The Bolger Cartopper's centerboard is weighted down with 9 lbs. of
> lead. Perhaps a similar design on a kick-up rudder would be useful.
>
> Todd

I forget where I read of this idea [I think from SA]

Drill a hole through the top and bottom piece of the rudder and insert
a small dowel [a pencil works]. When the rudder hits something
hard, the pencil shears off and the rudder kicks up.
The Bolger Cartopper's centerboard is weighted down with 9 lbs. of
lead. Perhaps a similar design on a kick-up rudder would be useful.

Todd

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John ONeill" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> Problem:
>
> Bolger Cartopper and many, many other kick-up rudders are held down
> by rudder cheek friction achieved via a sufficiently tight pivot
> bolt. The bolt has to have a fair amount of tension on it to
prevent
> the rudder from creeping up under sail, resulting in a rudder that:
>
> 1) slowly creeps up and becomes hard to operate if there isn't
enough
> tension
> 2) won't `kick-up' easily at any time
>
> Problem one has caused me near capsizes downwind in stiff breezes
and
> hard steering on any number of times. It's also caused the loss of
a
> good wrench, dropped in the drink while trying to tighten the bolt.
>
> Problem two has twice caused me to capsize in the mud-bottom waters
I
> sail. Each time was downwind in a stiff, rising breeze under full
> sail when the rudder grabbed a mudbank, stopping or slowing the
boat
> while instantly and dramatically slewing it sideways, careening it
> over and flooding it no matter what extreme contortions I undertook
> to prevent it.
>
> Solution:
>
> A spring-loaded ball-detent device that keeps the rudder down until
> the spring pressure is overcome, allowing the rudder to fully kick-
up.
>
> I posted pics in the Files section of Bolger2
>
> Basically the device is a short piece of capped, threaded pipe.
> The `inside' cap has a hole drilled in it just slightly smaller
than
> the diameter of a ball bearing. The ball bearing is placed inside
the
> pipe section and sticks through that hole, with a spring holding it
> firmly in place. A solid cap is then screwed on the other end,
> compressing the spring (and allowing for pressure adjustment by
> screwing the cap on either more or less, if needed)
>
> A hole big enough to accept the inside cap is drilled through one
> rudder cheek, in way of the very edge of the rudder (for maximum
> leverage). The ball detent assembly is mounted on that cheek, with
> the inside cap (and thus the ball bearing) facing the pivoting
rudder.
>
> On the rudder itself is mounted a metal plate with a hole drilled
> through it large enough to accept the ball bearing, and mounted so
> that the ball bearing is in way of the hole when the rudder is
> fully `down.'
>
> The assembly holds the rudder down, but when sufficient force is
> applied to overcome the spring pressure, up pops the rudder (the
> pivot bolt is left just tight enough to keep everything in place).
>
> To make it work there needs to be either enough space between the
> rudder cheeks to allow for rudder, metal plate and ball, or,
lacking
> clearance, the plate is let into the rudder flush and a groove is
> routed in the rudder to allow clearance for the ball when the
rudder
> is raised and lowered.
>
> In practice I've found that when the rudder does kick-up, it
> doesn't kick up enough to allow loss of all steerage. It floats
high
> on the water but enough is still submerged to allow directional
> control.
>
> In addition I rigged up a loop of line to raise and lower my rudder
> from inside the boat. I had to rig a simple mechanical advantage
> purchase on the `raise' side of the line to more easily overcome
the
> spring pressure, and I was concerned that I might have to rig the
> same on the `lower' line, but in practice the momentum of a quickly
> lowering rudder easily overcomes the spring pressure.
>
> When the ball engages there is a loud, satisfying "clunk," letting
> you know that yes, it is engaged.
>
> John O'Neill
These catches may also be available in hardware stores, though you might
have to keep after them to prevent rust.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
An elegant job of craftsmanship, John. Real art.

For those with less talent, "ball plungers" and "detents" are available in
SS for about $6 from outfits such as MSC. The ball can be SS or nylon.

I can empathize with your desire for such a device. The first time I took
my 8 yo daughter out on the Sunfish, we were happily gliding along the
river, completely relaxed, when a puff of wind called for more rudder.
Moving the tiller didn't help and two seconds later we were both swimming.
Apparently when one glides thru a mud bank at exactly the right depth, it
can unhook the (old-style) hold-down mechanism without warning. The rudder
gradually drifts up, and ... It was several years before I got her back on
board.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "John ONeill" <jboatguy@...>


> Problem:
>
> Bolger Cartopper and many, many other kick-up rudders are held down
> by rudder cheek friction achieved via a sufficiently tight pivot
> bolt. The bolt has to have a fair amount of tension on it to prevent
> the rudder from creeping up under sail, resulting in a rudder that:
>
> 1) slowly creeps up and becomes hard to operate if there isn't enough
> tension
> 2) won't `kick-up' easily at any time
>
> Problem one has caused me near capsizes downwind in stiff breezes and
> hard steering on any number of times. It's also caused the loss of a
> good wrench, dropped in the drink while trying to tighten the bolt.
>
> Problem two has twice caused me to capsize in the mud-bottom waters I
> sail. Each time was downwind in a stiff, rising breeze under full
> sail when the rudder grabbed a mudbank, stopping or slowing the boat
> while instantly and dramatically slewing it sideways, careening it
> over and flooding it no matter what extreme contortions I undertook
> to prevent it.
>
> Solution:
>
> A spring-loaded ball-detent device that keeps the rudder down until
> the spring pressure is overcome, allowing the rudder to fully kick-up.
>
> I posted pics in the Files section of Bolger2
>
> Basically the device is a short piece of capped, threaded pipe.
> The `inside' cap has a hole drilled in it just slightly smaller than
> the diameter of a ball bearing. The ball bearing is placed inside the
> pipe section and sticks through that hole, with a spring holding it
> firmly in place. A solid cap is then screwed on the other end,
> compressing the spring (and allowing for pressure adjustment by
> screwing the cap on either more or less, if needed)
>
> A hole big enough to accept the inside cap is drilled through one
> rudder cheek, in way of the very edge of the rudder (for maximum
> leverage). The ball detent assembly is mounted on that cheek, with
> the inside cap (and thus the ball bearing) facing the pivoting rudder.
>
> On the rudder itself is mounted a metal plate with a hole drilled
> through it large enough to accept the ball bearing, and mounted so
> that the ball bearing is in way of the hole when the rudder is
> fully `down.'
>
> The assembly holds the rudder down, but when sufficient force is
> applied to overcome the spring pressure, up pops the rudder (the
> pivot bolt is left just tight enough to keep everything in place).
>
> To make it work there needs to be either enough space between the
> rudder cheeks to allow for rudder, metal plate and ball, or, lacking
> clearance, the plate is let into the rudder flush and a groove is
> routed in the rudder to allow clearance for the ball when the rudder
> is raised and lowered.
>
> In practice I've found that when the rudder does kick-up, it
> doesn't kick up enough to allow loss of all steerage. It floats high
> on the water but enough is still submerged to allow directional
> control.
>
> In addition I rigged up a loop of line to raise and lower my rudder
> from inside the boat. I had to rig a simple mechanical advantage
> purchase on the `raise' side of the line to more easily overcome the
> spring pressure, and I was concerned that I might have to rig the
> same on the `lower' line, but in practice the momentum of a quickly
> lowering rudder easily overcomes the spring pressure.
>
> When the ball engages there is a loud, satisfying "clunk," letting
> you know that yes, it is engaged.
>
> John O'Neill
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Good idea, John, and an elegant solution. I saw another way of
dealing with the same problem this spring, that might be of
interest. I visited Bill Serjeant in England, and saw his sailing
canoe. (Not a Bolger boat, sorry!) I've posted a picture of the
rudder in Photos, called "Rudder hold-down" -- it's right at the very
end of all the photos right now, rather than in alphabetic order.
You can see a white line going from the pintle down along the leading
edge of the rudder, and a red line from the trailing edge. The white
line is bungee, and holds the rudder down against the water pressure,
but allows it to swing up on grounding or when the red line is pulled.

Bill's site is at
http://www.btinternet.com/~w.serjeant/boats/caleb.htmand shows some
pics of his sailing canoe. All lines lead to the cockpit, allowing
him to raise and lower the sail, reef and unreef, while sitting
down. He has a fairly large site, this is only one piece.

Jamie Orr

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John ONeill" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> Problem:
>
> Bolger Cartopper and many, many other kick-up rudders are held down
> by rudder cheek friction achieved via a sufficiently tight pivot
> bolt. The bolt has to have a fair amount of tension on it to
prevent
> the rudder from creeping up under sail, resulting in a rudder that:
>
> 1) slowly creeps up and becomes hard to operate if there isn't
enough
> tension
> 2) won't `kick-up' easily at any time
>
> Problem one has caused me near capsizes downwind in stiff breezes
and
> hard steering on any number of times. It's also caused the loss of
a
> good wrench, dropped in the drink while trying to tighten the bolt.
>
> Problem two has twice caused me to capsize in the mud-bottom waters
I
> sail. Each time was downwind in a stiff, rising breeze under full
> sail when the rudder grabbed a mudbank, stopping or slowing the
boat
> while instantly and dramatically slewing it sideways, careening it
> over and flooding it no matter what extreme contortions I undertook
> to prevent it.
>
> Solution:
>
> A spring-loaded ball-detent device that keeps the rudder down until
> the spring pressure is overcome, allowing the rudder to fully kick-
up.
>
> I posted pics in the Files section of Bolger2
>
> Basically the device is a short piece of capped, threaded pipe.
> The `inside' cap has a hole drilled in it just slightly smaller
than
> the diameter of a ball bearing. The ball bearing is placed inside
the
> pipe section and sticks through that hole, with a spring holding it
> firmly in place. A solid cap is then screwed on the other end,
> compressing the spring (and allowing for pressure adjustment by
> screwing the cap on either more or less, if needed)
>
> A hole big enough to accept the inside cap is drilled through one
> rudder cheek, in way of the very edge of the rudder (for maximum
> leverage). The ball detent assembly is mounted on that cheek, with
> the inside cap (and thus the ball bearing) facing the pivoting
rudder.
>
> On the rudder itself is mounted a metal plate with a hole drilled
> through it large enough to accept the ball bearing, and mounted so
> that the ball bearing is in way of the hole when the rudder is
> fully `down.'
>
> The assembly holds the rudder down, but when sufficient force is
> applied to overcome the spring pressure, up pops the rudder (the
> pivot bolt is left just tight enough to keep everything in place).
>
> To make it work there needs to be either enough space between the
> rudder cheeks to allow for rudder, metal plate and ball, or,
lacking
> clearance, the plate is let into the rudder flush and a groove is
> routed in the rudder to allow clearance for the ball when the
rudder
> is raised and lowered.
>
> In practice I've found that when the rudder does kick-up, it
> doesn't kick up enough to allow loss of all steerage. It floats
high
> on the water but enough is still submerged to allow directional
> control.
>
> In addition I rigged up a loop of line to raise and lower my rudder
> from inside the boat. I had to rig a simple mechanical advantage
> purchase on the `raise' side of the line to more easily overcome
the
> spring pressure, and I was concerned that I might have to rig the
> same on the `lower' line, but in practice the momentum of a quickly
> lowering rudder easily overcomes the spring pressure.
>
> When the ball engages there is a loud, satisfying "clunk," letting
> you know that yes, it is engaged.
>
> John O'Neill
Problem:

Bolger Cartopper and many, many other kick-up rudders are held down
by rudder cheek friction achieved via a sufficiently tight pivot
bolt. The bolt has to have a fair amount of tension on it to prevent
the rudder from creeping up under sail, resulting in a rudder that:

1) slowly creeps up and becomes hard to operate if there isn't enough
tension
2) won't `kick-up' easily at any time

Problem one has caused me near capsizes downwind in stiff breezes and
hard steering on any number of times. It's also caused the loss of a
good wrench, dropped in the drink while trying to tighten the bolt.

Problem two has twice caused me to capsize in the mud-bottom waters I
sail. Each time was downwind in a stiff, rising breeze under full
sail when the rudder grabbed a mudbank, stopping or slowing the boat
while instantly and dramatically slewing it sideways, careening it
over and flooding it no matter what extreme contortions I undertook
to prevent it.

Solution:

A spring-loaded ball-detent device that keeps the rudder down until
the spring pressure is overcome, allowing the rudder to fully kick-up.

I posted pics in the Files section of Bolger2

Basically the device is a short piece of capped, threaded pipe.
The `inside' cap has a hole drilled in it just slightly smaller than
the diameter of a ball bearing. The ball bearing is placed inside the
pipe section and sticks through that hole, with a spring holding it
firmly in place. A solid cap is then screwed on the other end,
compressing the spring (and allowing for pressure adjustment by
screwing the cap on either more or less, if needed)

A hole big enough to accept the inside cap is drilled through one
rudder cheek, in way of the very edge of the rudder (for maximum
leverage). The ball detent assembly is mounted on that cheek, with
the inside cap (and thus the ball bearing) facing the pivoting rudder.

On the rudder itself is mounted a metal plate with a hole drilled
through it large enough to accept the ball bearing, and mounted so
that the ball bearing is in way of the hole when the rudder is
fully `down.'

The assembly holds the rudder down, but when sufficient force is
applied to overcome the spring pressure, up pops the rudder (the
pivot bolt is left just tight enough to keep everything in place).

To make it work there needs to be either enough space between the
rudder cheeks to allow for rudder, metal plate and ball, or, lacking
clearance, the plate is let into the rudder flush and a groove is
routed in the rudder to allow clearance for the ball when the rudder
is raised and lowered.

In practice I've found that when the rudder does kick-up, it
doesn't kick up enough to allow loss of all steerage. It floats high
on the water but enough is still submerged to allow directional
control.

In addition I rigged up a loop of line to raise and lower my rudder
from inside the boat. I had to rig a simple mechanical advantage
purchase on the `raise' side of the line to more easily overcome the
spring pressure, and I was concerned that I might have to rig the
same on the `lower' line, but in practice the momentum of a quickly
lowering rudder easily overcomes the spring pressure.

When the ball engages there is a loud, satisfying "clunk," letting
you know that yes, it is engaged.

John O'Neill