Re: chebacco plans
Snail mail isn't communication? What other famous person will send you a
hand written note?
Ben wrote:
snip
Other than the eccentric mode of
communication (fax only)
snip
hand written note?
Ben wrote:
snip
Other than the eccentric mode of
communication (fax only)
snip
Hi guys,
Recently I ordered the Chebacco plans from PBF. The main reason is
that I am interested in making some modifications to the plan, and I
figured if I deal with the designer I can probably get
more 'original' advices. Other than the eccentric mode of
communication (fax only), overall I am satisfied with the process. I
ended up commissioning PBF for a modified plan, mainly to change the
mast step arrangement, and raise and lengthen the deck. The fee is
what I consider to be reasonable - one can't even get a proper brake
job done for less than a couple of hundred bucks these day. I
realize there's been other Chebacco builders who have made similar
changes, but this being my first serious boat I rather get it done
right. The modified plan will be ready in 2 months. I will further
let this audience know how it transpires.
Cheers
Ben
Recently I ordered the Chebacco plans from PBF. The main reason is
that I am interested in making some modifications to the plan, and I
figured if I deal with the designer I can probably get
more 'original' advices. Other than the eccentric mode of
communication (fax only), overall I am satisfied with the process. I
ended up commissioning PBF for a modified plan, mainly to change the
mast step arrangement, and raise and lengthen the deck. The fee is
what I consider to be reasonable - one can't even get a proper brake
job done for less than a couple of hundred bucks these day. I
realize there's been other Chebacco builders who have made similar
changes, but this being my first serious boat I rather get it done
right. The modified plan will be ready in 2 months. I will further
let this audience know how it transpires.
Cheers
Ben
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@y...> wrote:
> Brad,
>
> Mr. Payson has plans for the 20 foot plywood version only - if
this
> is not what you want to build then you will have to buy from Mr.
> Bolger.
>
> I bought Chebacco plans from Mr. Payson - they are clear, complete
> and were sent very promptly. The Chebacco was my second boat-build
(I
> built a Gypsy first) and I never had a problem as to how to
proceed
> with the construction.
>
> I think the difference in price reflects the fact that you
actually
> receive plans for about four different versions of the boat from
Phil
> Bolger and Friend.
>
> The difference in price from Phil Bolger ($100) versus Phil Bolger
> and Friend ($250) I think reflects the influence of "Friend" (and
> maybe a bit of inflation).
>
> My guess is that if one had questions concerning the building of
the
> boat, Mr. Payson would be the better person to ask as he is a very
> experienced boatbuilder, whereas Mr. Bolger hasn't built any boats
to
> my knowledge.
>
> I have never heard anyone say anything negative about Mr. Payson,
but
> have heard quite a bit of bitching about "Friend".
>
> Furthermore, communication with Phil Bolger and Friend is limited
to
> snail mail or facsimile (!?) - I've never seen a phone number or
> email address.
>
> All this having been said I don't think it makes much difference
whom
> you buy from.
>
> Good luck with your Chebacco.
>
> Paul
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bd5194" <reenbrad@b...> wrote:
> > Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference in
> chebacco
> > plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolger
> > charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right
> there!
> > Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am
very
> > skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some
light
> on
> > this, much appreciated, Brad
Brad,
Mr. Payson has plans for the 20 foot plywood version only - if this
is not what you want to build then you will have to buy from Mr.
Bolger.
I bought Chebacco plans from Mr. Payson - they are clear, complete
and were sent very promptly. The Chebacco was my second boat-build (I
built a Gypsy first) and I never had a problem as to how to proceed
with the construction.
I think the difference in price reflects the fact that you actually
receive plans for about four different versions of the boat from Phil
Bolger and Friend.
The difference in price from Phil Bolger ($100) versus Phil Bolger
and Friend ($250) I think reflects the influence of "Friend" (and
maybe a bit of inflation).
My guess is that if one had questions concerning the building of the
boat, Mr. Payson would be the better person to ask as he is a very
experienced boatbuilder, whereas Mr. Bolger hasn't built any boats to
my knowledge.
I have never heard anyone say anything negative about Mr. Payson, but
have heard quite a bit of bitching about "Friend".
Furthermore, communication with Phil Bolger and Friend is limited to
snail mail or facsimile (!?) - I've never seen a phone number or
email address.
All this having been said I don't think it makes much difference whom
you buy from.
Good luck with your Chebacco.
Paul
Mr. Payson has plans for the 20 foot plywood version only - if this
is not what you want to build then you will have to buy from Mr.
Bolger.
I bought Chebacco plans from Mr. Payson - they are clear, complete
and were sent very promptly. The Chebacco was my second boat-build (I
built a Gypsy first) and I never had a problem as to how to proceed
with the construction.
I think the difference in price reflects the fact that you actually
receive plans for about four different versions of the boat from Phil
Bolger and Friend.
The difference in price from Phil Bolger ($100) versus Phil Bolger
and Friend ($250) I think reflects the influence of "Friend" (and
maybe a bit of inflation).
My guess is that if one had questions concerning the building of the
boat, Mr. Payson would be the better person to ask as he is a very
experienced boatbuilder, whereas Mr. Bolger hasn't built any boats to
my knowledge.
I have never heard anyone say anything negative about Mr. Payson, but
have heard quite a bit of bitching about "Friend".
Furthermore, communication with Phil Bolger and Friend is limited to
snail mail or facsimile (!?) - I've never seen a phone number or
email address.
All this having been said I don't think it makes much difference whom
you buy from.
Good luck with your Chebacco.
Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bd5194" <reenbrad@b...> wrote:
> Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference in
chebacco
> plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolger
> charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right
there!
> Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am very
> skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some light
on
> this, much appreciated, Brad
Did he also show details for retracting board and rudder?
> Brick plans had gaff rig option, for instance.Lincoln Ross wrote
If I recall correctly, I have ordered one set of plans from each source
(Nymph and Brick), and I didn't see any differences in quality. It's
possible that plans from PCB might have more updates? (Brick plans had
gaff rig option, for instance.) However, when ordering from PCB, I'd
feel more justified asking him questions. (Payson answers some
questions, too, but he's not PCB.)
(Nymph and Brick), and I didn't see any differences in quality. It's
possible that plans from PCB might have more updates? (Brick plans had
gaff rig option, for instance.) However, when ordering from PCB, I'd
feel more justified asking him questions. (Payson answers some
questions, too, but he's not PCB.)
>Brad wrote:
>
>Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference in chebacco
>plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolger
>charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right there!
>Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am very
>skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some light on
>this, much appreciated, Brad
>
I bought my Chebacco plans from PCB about 10 years ago for $100.
They came with two extra sheets for the lapstrake version and an
invitation to ask any questions I wanted to. He warned me the plans
were drawn for a professional, and had no directions.
However, "Build the New Instant Boats" by Payson is recommended right
on the plan sheet, and will give you all the information you need.
You'll also want a scale rule to pull measurements off the plans
where they are not given.
Payson's deal with Bolger goes way back -- they collaborated on the
origianl instant boats and the new instant boats, and I believe
Payson's plans are identical to PCB's, but with fewer sheets. I
bought Cartopper plans and I've also seen Bobcat plans from Payson,
both were very obviously PCB's work.
Bottom line you get to consult with the master if you buy from him.
I believe Payson used to be available for phone consultations, but
haven't heard much from him in magazines and so on for a while,
wonder if he might be retired?
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
They came with two extra sheets for the lapstrake version and an
invitation to ask any questions I wanted to. He warned me the plans
were drawn for a professional, and had no directions.
However, "Build the New Instant Boats" by Payson is recommended right
on the plan sheet, and will give you all the information you need.
You'll also want a scale rule to pull measurements off the plans
where they are not given.
Payson's deal with Bolger goes way back -- they collaborated on the
origianl instant boats and the new instant boats, and I believe
Payson's plans are identical to PCB's, but with fewer sheets. I
bought Cartopper plans and I've also seen Bobcat plans from Payson,
both were very obviously PCB's work.
Bottom line you get to consult with the master if you buy from him.
I believe Payson used to be available for phone consultations, but
haven't heard much from him in magazines and so on for a while,
wonder if he might be retired?
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
> > I get the impression that PCB has recognized that mosteye
> > builders will take the offsets and ideas and build
> > it "their way" regardless of the designer's
> > suggestions. Where Jay Benford includes marginal notes
> > specifying every stick, PCB does not.
>
>
> Bolger's plans vary, depending on the circumstances for which they
> were first drawn. The ones originally done for Payson or LaRowe
> approach the "every stick" standard. Others were done for
> professionals to build using standard methods with little need for
> detail. The Chebacco plans were done for Storey, probably with an
> to amateur construction. I think they are somewhat intermediate.
>
> Peter
> I get the impression that PCB has recognized that mostBolger's plans vary, depending on the circumstances for which they
> builders will take the offsets and ideas and build
> it "their way" regardless of the designer's
> suggestions. Where Jay Benford includes marginal notes
> specifying every stick, PCB does not.
were first drawn. The ones originally done for Payson or LaRowe
approach the "every stick" standard. Others were done for
professionals to build using standard methods with little need for
detail. The Chebacco plans were done for Storey, probably with an eye
to amateur construction. I think they are somewhat intermediate.
Peter
I haven't dealt with Payson, so this isn't a reflection on him, but the set
of plans for Chebacco that I got from PCB&F included many varients for the
20' version, 12 sheets (day-sailer yes, cruising conversion yes, motor
sailor no). The 25' version is a different set (I guess).
That said, it has taken a lot of time to pull out the particular drawings
that apply to the version I'm building, and it is easy to get confused; e.g.
the drawings for the cabin on the "cruising conversion" are shown for the
sheet ply version. The lapstrake version is several inches wider so the
bulkheads (on the model) had to be widened. (Yes, Phil did say that the
cruising conversion should be built to "your boat" and not to the plans;
i.e. it was designed to convert existing day sailers into vehicles for us
solarphobes.)
I get the impression that PCB has recognized that most builders will take
the offsets and ideas and build it "their way" regardless of the designer's
suggestions. Where Jay Benford includes marginal notes specifying every
stick, PCB does not.
Another part of the price difference is probably the time PCB expects to
spend responding to questions. Experts in engineering get $200/hour for
consulting these days, in law they get $300/hour. It doesn't take much time
on the phone to reduce one to minimum wage. Maybe Payson does the same, but
????
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
of plans for Chebacco that I got from PCB&F included many varients for the
20' version, 12 sheets (day-sailer yes, cruising conversion yes, motor
sailor no). The 25' version is a different set (I guess).
That said, it has taken a lot of time to pull out the particular drawings
that apply to the version I'm building, and it is easy to get confused; e.g.
the drawings for the cabin on the "cruising conversion" are shown for the
sheet ply version. The lapstrake version is several inches wider so the
bulkheads (on the model) had to be widened. (Yes, Phil did say that the
cruising conversion should be built to "your boat" and not to the plans;
i.e. it was designed to convert existing day sailers into vehicles for us
solarphobes.)
I get the impression that PCB has recognized that most builders will take
the offsets and ideas and build it "their way" regardless of the designer's
suggestions. Where Jay Benford includes marginal notes specifying every
stick, PCB does not.
Another part of the price difference is probably the time PCB expects to
spend responding to questions. Experts in engineering get $200/hour for
consulting these days, in law they get $300/hour. It doesn't take much time
on the phone to reduce one to minimum wage. Maybe Payson does the same, but
????
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bd5194" <reenbrad@b...> wrote:
> > Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference
> > in chebacco plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger &
> > friends. I think Bolger charges $250 or something, Payson,
> > $60??? somethin ain't right there!
> > Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this,
> > now am very skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out
> > there can shed some light on this, much appreciated, Brad
>
> Payson's plans are fully usable and that is where I would order them.
> If you order them from PCB&F you will get all the upgrades to the
> basic design. However there are several models of CHEBACCO now, and
> if you want any of these you have to pay extra over the $250.00.
>
> Dynamite Payson has not raised his prices in the past 20 or so years.
> However his service is absolutely first rate.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bd5194" <reenbrad@b...> wrote:
If you order them from PCB&F you will get all the upgrades to the
basic design. However there are several models of CHEBACCO now, and
if you want any of these you have to pay extra over the $250.00.
Dynamite Payson has not raised his prices in the past 20 or so years.
However his service is absolutely first rate.
Cheers, Nels
> Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference inchebacco
> plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolgerthere!
> charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right
> Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am veryon
> skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some light
> this, much appreciated, BradPayson's plans are fully usable and that is where I would order them.
If you order them from PCB&F you will get all the upgrades to the
basic design. However there are several models of CHEBACCO now, and
if you want any of these you have to pay extra over the $250.00.
Dynamite Payson has not raised his prices in the past 20 or so years.
However his service is absolutely first rate.
Cheers, Nels
Hi all, can someone tell me why the huge price difference in chebacco
plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolger
charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right there!
Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am very
skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some light on
this, much appreciated, Brad
plans from Payson as opposed to Bolger & friends. I think Bolger
charges $250 or something, Payson, $60??? somethin ain't right there!
Was about to order from Payson when I discovered this, now am very
skeptical of Payson's plans? Anybody out there can shed some light on
this, much appreciated, Brad