Re: [bolger] Building without fiberglass
Michael,
Another thing about polyester resin, most polyester is made to stay soft
and a little tacky so the next layer will adhere to it. To get a hard
surface you have to use a special resin, add a special wax to regular
resin, or cover the resin so it's not exposed to air as it hardens.
I like epoxy much better.
Ford Walton
Michael Matthews wrote:
Another thing about polyester resin, most polyester is made to stay soft
and a little tacky so the next layer will adhere to it. To get a hard
surface you have to use a special resin, add a special wax to regular
resin, or cover the resin so it's not exposed to air as it hardens.
I like epoxy much better.
Ford Walton
Michael Matthews wrote:
>
> It sounds like I should look into epoxy before giving up on
> fiberglass altogether. We bought our suplies at TAP plastics.
> Epoxy was 3-4 times as much as polyester resin and as this
> was our first project we were trying to keep costs down. I guess
> that was a big mistake.
>
> Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglass
> was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
> need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
> even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
> almost impossible.
>
> Enough whinning. I'll see if I can find some plans that don't
> require fiberglass work and try one of them next. If I don't like it,
> I'll give epoxy a shot.
>
> Thanks for all the info!
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jim dorey
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Building without fiberglass
>
> back home the fish boat builders use polyester resins, if the wind blew
> the wrong way it could make me sick from a 1/4 kilometre, unpleasant
> stuff. using epoxy i've found that it smells kinda funny, but it
> doesn't make me sick. perhaps you should try a sniff of that epoxy that
> comes in twin tubes for glue, maybe make a picture frame with it, then
> you'll have a reason, might be kind of embarrassing to say that you're
> going to sniff it when asked what big project you're working on.
>
>fountainb@...wrote:
>
> > Did you use polyester or epoxy resin? If you used
> > polyester then it is not surprising you felt sick, the
> > fumes from polyester resin are something else. Epoxy
> > has far less smell and is much safer since it doesn't
> > contain solvents. Also, epoxy is a much more effective
> > glue.
> >
> >
> > Bruce Fountain
> > Senior Software Engineer
> > Union Switch & Signal
> > Perth, Western Australia
> >
> >
> >
> --
>http://www.skaar.101main.net
>http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
>http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
> moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
> DOM and proud!!!
>
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Hey Michael,
I just now saw your question...sorry for the delayed response.
Most small boat designs can be built using a variety of techniques,
some of which use fiberglass while others don't. So it's not so much
a question of the boats being 'designed' that way. To my mind, the
design is one thing and the construction technique is another. For
example, in the boats I made for my children, I bent the plywood
around a few frames to create the basic hull shape.
At that point I could've used tack & tape or stitch & glue, but I
decided to use external chines. This provided a good deal of
stiffness to the hull, and I had zero concern for the safety of the
children (or that damn dog of ours who will eat anything). Adding
small breasthooks and gunnels made of oak stiffened the sides fairly
well. Once the children get their sealegs (read 'balance'), I'll add
some seats. This will raise their center of balance, make it easier
to paddle, keep their butts dry, and completely stiffen the hull.
I hope that answers your question somewhat. Let me know if I missed
the mark.
Cheers,
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
I just now saw your question...sorry for the delayed response.
Most small boat designs can be built using a variety of techniques,
some of which use fiberglass while others don't. So it's not so much
a question of the boats being 'designed' that way. To my mind, the
design is one thing and the construction technique is another. For
example, in the boats I made for my children, I bent the plywood
around a few frames to create the basic hull shape.
At that point I could've used tack & tape or stitch & glue, but I
decided to use external chines. This provided a good deal of
stiffness to the hull, and I had zero concern for the safety of the
children (or that damn dog of ours who will eat anything). Adding
small breasthooks and gunnels made of oak stiffened the sides fairly
well. Once the children get their sealegs (read 'balance'), I'll add
some seats. This will raise their center of balance, make it easier
to paddle, keep their butts dry, and completely stiffen the hull.
I hope that answers your question somewhat. Let me know if I missed
the mark.
Cheers,
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> When you built the boats without fiberglass how did you reinforcecurrently
> them? Were these boats designed that way or did you just leave
> out the glassing step?
>
> I will definitely check out the websites you mention.
> Thanks!
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: findleyjh@e...
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 1:55 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Building without fiberglass
>
>
> Greetings Michael,
>
> Like you, I am a relative neophyte to boatbuilding, and I'm
> working on a Micro. While it's true that plywood withoutfiberglass
> might not be so good for a pocket cruiser like Micro, youshouldn't
> have to abandon plywood just because you choose not to usefiberglass
> and epoxy.plywood, PL
>
> I've built a couple of small boats for my children (yah, that's
> it...they're for the CHILDREN!) using 1/4" exterior luaun
> Premium, and exterior house paint. While these boats won'toutlast a
> similar boat made from fiberglass and epoxy, it's not much of anthe
> issue for boats that don't live in the water.
>
> There are a tremendous number of choices and examples, and these
> boats go together very, very quickly (and cheaply). Check out
> Simplicity Boats website, the Wacky Lassie, and Herb McLoed's Oneno
> Sheet Skiff for a start.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
> <mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> > Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
> > Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
> > was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
> > woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
> > I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
> > to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely
> > interest in it.each
> >
> > I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In
> > case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worstcase,
> > painting it would look good in the end. I don't get thatfeeling
> with thefinishing
> > fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined with
> > polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
> > and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and
> > wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.without
> >
> > For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something
> > any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks helppoint
> > me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazinesto
> > to check out? Anything?
> >
> > I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems
> mewith
> > that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it
> > fiberglass.hold up
> > He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not
> > over time.posts
> >
> > I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or
> sailing
> > dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
> > amatuer wookworking skills.
> >
> > Any and all advice is appreciated.
> > Take care,
> > Michael Matthews
> > --
> > Michael Matthews
> > Partner, Software Services
> > Nymbil Solutions, LLC
> > mike@n...
> > (925) 216-4911
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com----------
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>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's probably a good suggestion considering I already have a
small fleet of boats. Trying to sail a dining room table across
the local reservoir might be an interesting challenge.....
small fleet of boats. Trying to sail a dining room table across
the local reservoir might be an interesting challenge.....
----- Original Message -----
From:frboblynn@...
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Building without fiberglass
In a message dated 4/28/04 2:59:48 PM,mike_matthews@...writes:
<< Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
amateur woodworking skills >>
Build furniture. That will allow you to "continue improving [your] amateur
woodworking skills," you won't need to fiberglass anything, there will be no
harsh
chemical fumes, and you won't have to wonder if it will leak or if it will
float.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 4/28/04 2:59:48 PM,mike_matthews@...writes:
<< Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
amateur woodworking skills >>
Build furniture. That will allow you to "continue improving [your] amateur
woodworking skills," you won't need to fiberglass anything, there will be no
harsh
chemical fumes, and you won't have to wonder if it will leak or if it will
float.
<< Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
amateur woodworking skills >>
Build furniture. That will allow you to "continue improving [your] amateur
woodworking skills," you won't need to fiberglass anything, there will be no
harsh
chemical fumes, and you won't have to wonder if it will leak or if it will
float.
Well, sanding epoxy is a bear too, though it helps if you wash the
blush off and let it set up really hard (say for a warm week) first, and
don't bear down too hard so it doesn't soften up on you. In the case of
polyester, there is a wax layer on some types that might need to be
scrubbed off, and if there isn't a wax layer then the top layer will not
be totally cured, which I bet is bad for sanding. If you have bubbles,
you're not doing things right, or the resin is too thick. Try to work
out of the sun, when the temperature is dropping. See if you can find
the System 3 Epoxy book, which I think is on line. Should help. System 3
is nice stuff but pricy.
blush off and let it set up really hard (say for a warm week) first, and
don't bear down too hard so it doesn't soften up on you. In the case of
polyester, there is a wax layer on some types that might need to be
scrubbed off, and if there isn't a wax layer then the top layer will not
be totally cured, which I bet is bad for sanding. If you have bubbles,
you're not doing things right, or the resin is too thick. Try to work
out of the sun, when the temperature is dropping. See if you can find
the System 3 Epoxy book, which I think is on line. Should help. System 3
is nice stuff but pricy.
>Michael Matthews wrote:
>snip
>Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglass
>was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
>need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
>even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
>almost impossible.
>
>snip
>
I think in most designs, the glass just ends up as protection for the
wood. Woven glass is pretty floppy stuff, although strong. I bet the
wood breaks inside before the glass takes up the strain. I have used 1
oz glass on some boats. Kind of a pain, but it keeps things light, and
the boats have held up well so far.
wood. Woven glass is pretty floppy stuff, although strong. I bet the
wood breaks inside before the glass takes up the strain. I have used 1
oz glass on some boats. Kind of a pain, but it keeps things light, and
the boats have held up well so far.
>Michael Matthews wrote:
>
>When you built the boats without fiberglass how did you reinforce
>them? Were these boats designed that way or did you just leave
>out the glassing step?
>
>I will definitely check out the websites you mention.
>Thanks!
>Michael
>
Are you sure it isn't the polyester and not the glass that's giving you
trouble? Most polyester I've messed with is cheap, really viscous stuff
from the auto store that was pretty frustrating to use. It's especially
awful if it isn't fresh. Epoxy hardly smells at all, and you can get a
slow type that gives you an hour or more to get things right. I'm sure
you have a fair amount of experience making things out of wood. Don't
expect to get similar results with glass until you've played with it for
a while. While it can be messier, there are tricks to make it look ok
without a horrible amount of trouble, and it has capabilities really not
available in pure wood construction.
If you really can't stand it, there are some designs where you could
maybe glue wood strips over the end grain, I suppose.
Mike Matthews wrote:
complaint re trouble with glass and polyester
trouble? Most polyester I've messed with is cheap, really viscous stuff
from the auto store that was pretty frustrating to use. It's especially
awful if it isn't fresh. Epoxy hardly smells at all, and you can get a
slow type that gives you an hour or more to get things right. I'm sure
you have a fair amount of experience making things out of wood. Don't
expect to get similar results with glass until you've played with it for
a while. While it can be messier, there are tricks to make it look ok
without a horrible amount of trouble, and it has capabilities really not
available in pure wood construction.
If you really can't stand it, there are some designs where you could
maybe glue wood strips over the end grain, I suppose.
Mike Matthews wrote:
complaint re trouble with glass and polyester
> I'mThe designer Jacques Mertens uses carefully designed 'glass on both
> concerned that the fiberglass is designed to add rigidty as well as
> make the boat water tight.
sides of the plywood to make a "plywood core fiberglass boat." He is
about the only designer to work that way. Where a glass layer is
called for elsewhere, it's mostly to keep the ply from checking, and
to keep it dry. I'm not aware of any plywood Bolger designs for which
the 'glass sheathing is really structual. If the boat is trailered
and kept clean, dry, and out of the sun, it's not going to be much of
a problem anyway.
You have plenty of other options in any case. First to come to mind
is glued lapstrake. Bolger has some boats like that, as do Arch Davis
and John Welsford. You might want to paint the plank edges with
epoxy, of course. Second method to consider is strip planking. The
pictures just posted of Nina are good illustrations. The great part
is that the world of round bottom boats is opened up to you.
Finally, you can just revert to pre-resin methods, a la Pete Culler
and John Gardner. Use natural timber and rivet yourself a boat. If it
was good enough for Rushton, it should be good enough for anyone.
Peter
I am not a great fan of fibreglass and epoxy. Would rather buy
marine ply and leave out the resin, and have a lighter, faster boat,
but........
I built a moth class with multi-chines, carefully, and the seams at
the chines leaked.
I now think that taped seams are a must. You would survive that much?
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
marine ply and leave out the resin, and have a lighter, faster boat,
but........
I built a moth class with multi-chines, carefully, and the seams at
the chines leaked.
I now think that taped seams are a must. You would survive that much?
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.with the
> Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
> was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
> woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
> I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
> to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
> interest in it.
>
> I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
> case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
> painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling
> fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined withfinishing
> polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
> and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and
> wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.point
>
> For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help
> me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazinesme
> to check out? Anything?
>
> I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to
> that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it withup
> fiberglass.
> He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold
> over time.sailing
>
> I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or
> dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
> amatuer wookworking skills.
>
> Any and all advice is appreciated.
> Take care,
> Michael Matthews
> --
> Michael Matthews
> Partner, Software Services
> Nymbil Solutions, LLC
> mike@n...
> (925) 216-4911
Michael Matthews wrote:
but if you are using it for glueing and glassing just the seams
then the cost is really not that bad. Those PL glues that are
often suggested as alternatives probably aren't that much
cheaper if you buy your epoxy in reasonable volumes (ie 4L+)
and shop around for price rather than use WEST. And epoxy is
such a good allrounder - laminating, glueing, sealing, filleting.
though - green epoxy clogs the sandpaper and the dust is very
bad for you.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> Epoxy was 3-4 times as much as polyester resin and as thisIf you are glassing your entire hull then epoxy can get pricey,
> was our first project we were trying to keep costs down. I guess
> that was a big mistake.
but if you are using it for glueing and glassing just the seams
then the cost is really not that bad. Those PL glues that are
often suggested as alternatives probably aren't that much
cheaper if you buy your epoxy in reasonable volumes (ie 4L+)
and shop around for price rather than use WEST. And epoxy is
such a good allrounder - laminating, glueing, sealing, filleting.
> Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglassI find that epoxy sands like a dream. Make sure it is full cured
> was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
> need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
> even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
> almost impossible.
though - green epoxy clogs the sandpaper and the dust is very
bad for you.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
some ideas, for making the glass smooth, make a BIG plastic bag that
fits the entire boat, use it to vacuum impregnate some glass that's
tacked down to the boat, well, maybe not. poly seems to be terrible for
bonding to wood and foam, i've seen some on plywood that's been cracked
by an impact, the glass separates from the wood as soon as any moisture
hits, probably it's only on oily woods, but i'd only use it for boats
that include no wood or foam. course it's been used successfully on
wood and foam for a long time, so there's gotta be some technique for
doing it properly.
Michael Matthews wrote:
http://www.skaar.101main.net
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
DOM and proud!!!
fits the entire boat, use it to vacuum impregnate some glass that's
tacked down to the boat, well, maybe not. poly seems to be terrible for
bonding to wood and foam, i've seen some on plywood that's been cracked
by an impact, the glass separates from the wood as soon as any moisture
hits, probably it's only on oily woods, but i'd only use it for boats
that include no wood or foam. course it's been used successfully on
wood and foam for a long time, so there's gotta be some technique for
doing it properly.
Michael Matthews wrote:
> It sounds like I should look into epoxy before giving up on--
> fiberglass altogether. We bought our suplies at TAP plastics.
> Epoxy was 3-4 times as much as polyester resin and as this
> was our first project we were trying to keep costs down. I guess
> that was a big mistake.
>
> Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglass
> was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
> need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
> even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
> almost impossible.
>
> Enough whinning. I'll see if I can find some plans that don't
> require fiberglass work and try one of them next. If I don't like it,
> I'll give epoxy a shot.
>
> Thanks for all the info!
> Michael
http://www.skaar.101main.net
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
DOM and proud!!!
It sounds like I should look into epoxy before giving up on
fiberglass altogether. We bought our suplies at TAP plastics.
Epoxy was 3-4 times as much as polyester resin and as this
was our first project we were trying to keep costs down. I guess
that was a big mistake.
Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglass
was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
almost impossible.
Enough whinning. I'll see if I can find some plans that don't
require fiberglass work and try one of them next. If I don't like it,
I'll give epoxy a shot.
Thanks for all the info!
Michael
fiberglass altogether. We bought our suplies at TAP plastics.
Epoxy was 3-4 times as much as polyester resin and as this
was our first project we were trying to keep costs down. I guess
that was a big mistake.
Smell was only half of it. Sanding and finishing the fibreglass
was a real bear. It still doesn't look very good and in my opinion
need LOTS more sanding. The sanding doesn't seem very productive
even using 60 grit paper. Trying to get the bubbles out seems
almost impossible.
Enough whinning. I'll see if I can find some plans that don't
require fiberglass work and try one of them next. If I don't like it,
I'll give epoxy a shot.
Thanks for all the info!
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: jim dorey
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Building without fiberglass
back home the fish boat builders use polyester resins, if the wind blew
the wrong way it could make me sick from a 1/4 kilometre, unpleasant
stuff. using epoxy i've found that it smells kinda funny, but it
doesn't make me sick. perhaps you should try a sniff of that epoxy that
comes in twin tubes for glue, maybe make a picture frame with it, then
you'll have a reason, might be kind of embarrassing to say that you're
going to sniff it when asked what big project you're working on.
fountainb@...wrote:
> Did you use polyester or epoxy resin? If you used
> polyester then it is not surprising you felt sick, the
> fumes from polyester resin are something else. Epoxy
> has far less smell and is much safer since it doesn't
> contain solvents. Also, epoxy is a much more effective
> glue.
>
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia
>
>
>
--
http://www.skaar.101main.net
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
DOM and proud!!!
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
back home the fish boat builders use polyester resins, if the wind blew
the wrong way it could make me sick from a 1/4 kilometre, unpleasant
stuff. using epoxy i've found that it smells kinda funny, but it
doesn't make me sick. perhaps you should try a sniff of that epoxy that
comes in twin tubes for glue, maybe make a picture frame with it, then
you'll have a reason, might be kind of embarrassing to say that you're
going to sniff it when asked what big project you're working on.
fountainb@...wrote:
http://www.skaar.101main.net
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
DOM and proud!!!
the wrong way it could make me sick from a 1/4 kilometre, unpleasant
stuff. using epoxy i've found that it smells kinda funny, but it
doesn't make me sick. perhaps you should try a sniff of that epoxy that
comes in twin tubes for glue, maybe make a picture frame with it, then
you'll have a reason, might be kind of embarrassing to say that you're
going to sniff it when asked what big project you're working on.
fountainb@...wrote:
> Did you use polyester or epoxy resin? If you used--
> polyester then it is not surprising you felt sick, the
> fumes from polyester resin are something else. Epoxy
> has far less smell and is much safer since it doesn't
> contain solvents. Also, epoxy is a much more effective
> glue.
>
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Senior Software Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia
>
>
>
http://www.skaar.101main.net
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/
http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html?
moderator ofwildsteam@yahoogroups.com
DOM and proud!!!
You mentioned in your first posting that you had the help of friends in
building your first boat, why not do the woodworking which you seem to enjoy
and have one of your friends do the epoxy and glassing? Another thought,
have you tried different formulas, for example if you are using West System
and are allergic to it how about trying one of the others, might make a
difference?
Grant
on 4/28/04 6:40 PM, Justin Meddock atjmeddock@...wrote:
building your first boat, why not do the woodworking which you seem to enjoy
and have one of your friends do the epoxy and glassing? Another thought,
have you tried different formulas, for example if you are using West System
and are allergic to it how about trying one of the others, might make a
difference?
Grant
on 4/28/04 6:40 PM, Justin Meddock atjmeddock@...wrote:
> The first few boats (5?) in Payson's New Instant Boats
> are stitchandglue, the ones in the back
> (new boats to join the original instant fleet, or something like that)
> are nail and glue and don't HAVE to be glassed at all, but would live longer
> with taped chines.
>
> Have you read all the Jim Michalak back issues?
>http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/
> also, he has a book "Boatbuilding For Beginners and Beyond"
> that covers a lot of plywood construction methods.
> BTW, I am right with you on the FG thing...
>
> Justin
>
>
>
>
>> Really? Are these boats not built with the 'stitch and glue" method?
>> It's my understanding that with stitch and glue it's the fiberglass that
>> makes the boat rigid. Hmmm.......I think I have some more reading
>> to do......
>> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Michael Matthews wrote:
polyester then it is not surprising you felt sick, the
fumes from polyester resin are something else. Epoxy
has far less smell and is much safer since it doesn't
contain solvents. Also, epoxy is a much more effective
glue.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined withand then you wrote:
> polyester resin. The fumes made me sick
> I'd like to investigate building something withoutDid you use polyester or epoxy resin? If you used
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all
polyester then it is not surprising you felt sick, the
fumes from polyester resin are something else. Epoxy
has far less smell and is much safer since it doesn't
contain solvents. Also, epoxy is a much more effective
glue.
Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
The first few boats (5?) in Payson's New Instant Boats
are stitchandglue, the ones in the back
(new boats to join the original instant fleet, or something like that)
are nail and glue and don't HAVE to be glassed at all, but would live longer
with taped chines.
Have you read all the Jim Michalak back issues?
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/
also, he has a book "Boatbuilding For Beginners and Beyond"
that covers a lot of plywood construction methods.
BTW, I am right with you on the FG thing...
Justin
are stitchandglue, the ones in the back
(new boats to join the original instant fleet, or something like that)
are nail and glue and don't HAVE to be glassed at all, but would live longer
with taped chines.
Have you read all the Jim Michalak back issues?
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/
also, he has a book "Boatbuilding For Beginners and Beyond"
that covers a lot of plywood construction methods.
BTW, I am right with you on the FG thing...
Justin
> Really? Are these boats not built with the 'stitch and glue" method?
> It's my understanding that with stitch and glue it's the fiberglass that
> makes the boat rigid. Hmmm.......I think I have some more reading
> to do......
> Thanks!
Really? Are these boats not built with the 'stitch and glue" method?
It's my understanding that with stitch and glue it's the fiberglass that
makes the boat rigid. Hmmm.......I think I have some more reading
to do......
Thanks!
It's my understanding that with stitch and glue it's the fiberglass that
makes the boat rigid. Hmmm.......I think I have some more reading
to do......
Thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Stancil
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building without fiberglass
Almost all the bolger boats and many others with the log style
bottom attachment do not require glass except for abrasion
resistants and epoxy to seal the wood. Structurally glass is'nt
needed on most boats......just makes them last longer and alows a
better finish.....or an easier one anyhow....some people would argue
that though. As a min. i would suggest coating the end grain and the
chine edges of the boat if it is going to be beach or left outdoors.
The choice is yours.
Jason
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Almost all the bolger boats and many others with the log style
bottom attachment do not require glass except for abrasion
resistants and epoxy to seal the wood. Structurally glass is'nt
needed on most boats......just makes them last longer and alows a
better finish.....or an easier one anyhow....some people would argue
that though. As a min. i would suggest coating the end grain and the
chine edges of the boat if it is going to be beach or left outdoors.
The choice is yours.
Jason
bottom attachment do not require glass except for abrasion
resistants and epoxy to seal the wood. Structurally glass is'nt
needed on most boats......just makes them last longer and alows a
better finish.....or an easier one anyhow....some people would argue
that though. As a min. i would suggest coating the end grain and the
chine edges of the boat if it is going to be beach or left outdoors.
The choice is yours.
Jason
-Take a look at the new TitebondIII glue. With plywood seal the edges.
I'd try it with the TBIII or some product from the pre epoxy past. If
you can't keep your boat under cover when not in use don't use fir
plywood. Meranti is not much more expensive. Or MDO. The problem is
sealing the edges. You don't HAVE to use epoxy. Many swear by PL
Premium for gluing but use fasteners. Plywood has been used in boats
many years before the advent of epoxies and a lot of them are still
around. As you have noticed polyester stinks and needs lots of
ventilation.
Bob Chamberland
I'd try it with the TBIII or some product from the pre epoxy past. If
you can't keep your boat under cover when not in use don't use fir
plywood. Meranti is not much more expensive. Or MDO. The problem is
sealing the edges. You don't HAVE to use epoxy. Many swear by PL
Premium for gluing but use fasteners. Plywood has been used in boats
many years before the advent of epoxies and a lot of them are still
around. As you have noticed polyester stinks and needs lots of
ventilation.
Bob Chamberland
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
> <mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> > Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
> > Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
> > was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
> > woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
> > I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
> > to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
> > interest in it.
> >
> > I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
> > case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
> > painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling
> with the
> > fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined with
> > polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
> > and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and finishing
> > wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.
> >
> > For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> > any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
> > me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
> > to check out? Anything?
> >
> > I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to
> me
> > that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it with
> > fiberglass.
> > He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold up
> > over time.
> >
> > I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or
> sailing
> > dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
> > amatuer wookworking skills.
> >
> > Any and all advice is appreciated.
> > Take care,
> > Michael Matthews
> > --
> > Michael Matthews
> > Partner, Software Services
> > Nymbil Solutions, LLC
> > mike@n...
> > (925) 216-4911
When you built the boats without fiberglass how did you reinforce
them? Were these boats designed that way or did you just leave
out the glassing step?
I will definitely check out the websites you mention.
Thanks!
Michael
them? Were these boats designed that way or did you just leave
out the glassing step?
I will definitely check out the websites you mention.
Thanks!
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From:findleyjh@...
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 1:55 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building without fiberglass
Greetings Michael,
Like you, I am a relative neophyte to boatbuilding, and I'm currently
working on a Micro. While it's true that plywood without fiberglass
might not be so good for a pocket cruiser like Micro, you shouldn't
have to abandon plywood just because you choose not to use fiberglass
and epoxy.
I've built a couple of small boats for my children (yah, that's
it...they're for the CHILDREN!) using 1/4" exterior luaun plywood, PL
Premium, and exterior house paint. While these boats won't outlast a
similar boat made from fiberglass and epoxy, it's not much of an
issue for boats that don't live in the water.
There are a tremendous number of choices and examples, and these
boats go together very, very quickly (and cheaply). Check out the
Simplicity Boats website, the Wacky Lassie, and Herb McLoed's One
Sheet Skiff for a start.
Cheers,
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
> Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
> was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
> woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
> I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
> to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
> interest in it.
>
> I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
> case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
> painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling
with the
> fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined with
> polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
> and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and finishing
> wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.
>
> For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
> me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
> to check out? Anything?
>
> I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to
me
> that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it with
> fiberglass.
> He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold up
> over time.
>
> I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or
sailing
> dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
> amatuer wookworking skills.
>
> Any and all advice is appreciated.
> Take care,
> Michael Matthews
> --
> Michael Matthews
> Partner, Software Services
> Nymbil Solutions, LLC
> mike@n...
> (925) 216-4911
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I had thought about trying to cover the outside edges with some some
type of more durable wood and then add chine logs to the inside. I'm
concerned that the fiberglass is designed to add rigidty as well as
make the boat water tight. How do I add structural strength to the design
without the fiberglass? Do you think that building chine logs on the
interior and some sort of rabbeted timber for the exterior all assembled
with copious amounts of glue will do the trick? That would be a nice
solution. I guess I need to look at some plans for boats designed to
be built with plywood but without fiberglass. I didn't realize there were
some.
As to the buzzing of jet skiiers.....I have a 15hp outboard just waiting
to go on the boat. All I need is a weekend when all the participating
builders can make it and we'll do the terrorizing for once!
Take care and thanks for the response!
Michael
type of more durable wood and then add chine logs to the inside. I'm
concerned that the fiberglass is designed to add rigidty as well as
make the boat water tight. How do I add structural strength to the design
without the fiberglass? Do you think that building chine logs on the
interior and some sort of rabbeted timber for the exterior all assembled
with copious amounts of glue will do the trick? That would be a nice
solution. I guess I need to look at some plans for boats designed to
be built with plywood but without fiberglass. I didn't realize there were
some.
As to the buzzing of jet skiiers.....I have a 15hp outboard just waiting
to go on the boat. All I need is a weekend when all the participating
builders can make it and we'll do the terrorizing for once!
Take care and thanks for the response!
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 1:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Building without fiberglass
Michael,
Hide the plywood edges at the chine either in a rabbeted timber or by adding a covering
strip to the outside.
If you can find it at your library, see Edson Shock's 'Small Boat Building' (isn't that
what it's called?) for plans with dimensions for these, or you can improvise pretty
easily for any constant flared side.
A simple rabbet in the sheer strake works on top.
For a look at traditional all timber boatbuilding methods see the classics from Howard
Chapelle, Pete Culler, George Buehler. There's a large format series from Greg Roessel,
'Building Heidi' and others that show how it was done in the past to good effect.
The bibliography from keyword "boat building" is vast. Lapstreak can be either glued ply
(Ian Outread), using a minimum of goo; or traditional planks, with frames (Robert
Steward, Michael Verney). Strip planked canoes generally use a lot of fiberglass, but, in
thicker dimensions, that was done for years without it.
Wooden Boat Magazine has a pretty good catalog of current titles. I suppose Chuck at
Duckworks can order anything you like.
Confounded any jetskiers with your Skimmer yet yet?
Mark
Michael Matthews wrote:
>
> Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
> For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
> me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
> to check out? Anything?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Greetings Michael,
Like you, I am a relative neophyte to boatbuilding, and I'm currently
working on a Micro. While it's true that plywood without fiberglass
might not be so good for a pocket cruiser like Micro, you shouldn't
have to abandon plywood just because you choose not to use fiberglass
and epoxy.
I've built a couple of small boats for my children (yah, that's
it...they're for the CHILDREN!) using 1/4" exterior luaun plywood, PL
Premium, and exterior house paint. While these boats won't outlast a
similar boat made from fiberglass and epoxy, it's not much of an
issue for boats that don't live in the water.
There are a tremendous number of choices and examples, and these
boats go together very, very quickly (and cheaply). Check out the
Simplicity Boats website, the Wacky Lassie, and Herb McLoed's One
Sheet Skiff for a start.
Cheers,
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
Like you, I am a relative neophyte to boatbuilding, and I'm currently
working on a Micro. While it's true that plywood without fiberglass
might not be so good for a pocket cruiser like Micro, you shouldn't
have to abandon plywood just because you choose not to use fiberglass
and epoxy.
I've built a couple of small boats for my children (yah, that's
it...they're for the CHILDREN!) using 1/4" exterior luaun plywood, PL
Premium, and exterior house paint. While these boats won't outlast a
similar boat made from fiberglass and epoxy, it's not much of an
issue for boats that don't live in the water.
There are a tremendous number of choices and examples, and these
boats go together very, very quickly (and cheaply). Check out the
Simplicity Boats website, the Wacky Lassie, and Herb McLoed's One
Sheet Skiff for a start.
Cheers,
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Matthews"
<mike_matthews@c...> wrote:
> Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.with the
> Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
> was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
> woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
> I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
> to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
> interest in it.
>
> I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
> case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
> painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling
> fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined withme
> polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
> and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and finishing
> wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.
>
> For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
> me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
> to check out? Anything?
>
> I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to
> that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it withsailing
> fiberglass.
> He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold up
> over time.
>
> I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or
> dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
> amatuer wookworking skills.
>
> Any and all advice is appreciated.
> Take care,
> Michael Matthews
> --
> Michael Matthews
> Partner, Software Services
> Nymbil Solutions, LLC
> mike@n...
> (925) 216-4911
Michael,
Hide the plywood edges at the chine either in a rabbeted timber or by adding a covering
strip to the outside.
If you can find it at your library, see Edson Shock's 'Small Boat Building' (isn't that
what it's called?) for plans with dimensions for these, or you can improvise pretty
easily for any constant flared side.
A simple rabbet in the sheer strake works on top.
For a look at traditional all timber boatbuilding methods see the classics from Howard
Chapelle, Pete Culler, George Buehler. There's a large format series from Greg Roessel,
'Building Heidi' and others that show how it was done in the past to good effect.
The bibliography from keyword "boat building" is vast. Lapstreak can be either glued ply
(Ian Outread), using a minimum of goo; or traditional planks, with frames (Robert
Steward, Michael Verney). Strip planked canoes generally use a lot of fiberglass, but, in
thicker dimensions, that was done for years without it.
Wooden Boat Magazine has a pretty good catalog of current titles. I suppose Chuck at
Duckworks can order anything you like.
Confounded any jetskiers with your Skimmer yet yet?
Mark
Michael Matthews wrote:
Hide the plywood edges at the chine either in a rabbeted timber or by adding a covering
strip to the outside.
If you can find it at your library, see Edson Shock's 'Small Boat Building' (isn't that
what it's called?) for plans with dimensions for these, or you can improvise pretty
easily for any constant flared side.
A simple rabbet in the sheer strake works on top.
For a look at traditional all timber boatbuilding methods see the classics from Howard
Chapelle, Pete Culler, George Buehler. There's a large format series from Greg Roessel,
'Building Heidi' and others that show how it was done in the past to good effect.
The bibliography from keyword "boat building" is vast. Lapstreak can be either glued ply
(Ian Outread), using a minimum of goo; or traditional planks, with frames (Robert
Steward, Michael Verney). Strip planked canoes generally use a lot of fiberglass, but, in
thicker dimensions, that was done for years without it.
Wooden Boat Magazine has a pretty good catalog of current titles. I suppose Chuck at
Duckworks can order anything you like.
Confounded any jetskiers with your Skimmer yet yet?
Mark
Michael Matthews wrote:
>
> Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
> For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
> any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
> me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
> to check out? Anything?
Well, I just finished my first boat, a Bolger/Payson Skimmer.
Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
interest in it.
I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling with the
fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined with
polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and finishing
wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.
For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
to check out? Anything?
I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to me
that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it with
fiberglass.
He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold up
over time.
I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or sailing
dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
amatuer wookworking skills.
Any and all advice is appreciated.
Take care,
Michael Matthews
--
Michael Matthews
Partner, Software Services
Nymbil Solutions, LLC
mike@...
(925) 216-4911
Three of us worked on it for two complete weekends and it
was a great experience with one big exception. I loved the
woodworking. I'm not very good at it, but it was fun to do and
I can see one would improve with time. However, when it came
to the fiberglass work........I learned that I have absolutely no
interest in it.
I've tackled several projects with wood over the last year. In each
case I found, with enough sanding, varnishing or even, worst case,
painting it would look good in the end. I don't get that feeling with the
fiberglass. We used both fiberglass tape and cloth combined with
polyester resin. The fumes made me sick (even through the mask)
and the finish looks terrible. Whereas I enjoy sanding and finishing
wood I found the fiberglass work slow and unrewarding.
For my next boat I'd like to investigate building something without
any epoxy or fiberglass at all. Can any of you kind folks help point
me in the right direction? Books to read, websites or magazines
to check out? Anything?
I re-read Payson's "Instant Boats" book last night and it seems to me
that I'll have to abandon plywood if I'm not going to cover it with
fiberglass.
He seems to think that non-fiberglassed plywood edges do not hold up
over time.
I'm not looking to build anything big, maybe a small rowboat or sailing
dinghy. Just something to encourage me to continue improving my
amatuer wookworking skills.
Any and all advice is appreciated.
Take care,
Michael Matthews
--
Michael Matthews
Partner, Software Services
Nymbil Solutions, LLC
mike@...
(925) 216-4911