Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?

> Not really natural, but I have a couple of old delaminating
> Mylar/Kevlar sails laying around. I was thinking of pulling the

> and using the kevlar cloth for FG repair work.
>
> Justin

> figures for epoxy under 10kpsi. I think with ferro cement, the

> might be able to take more of the compression load, as you

> and as I recall portland cement is ok in compression and terrible

> tension. I also seem to recall epoxy has some strength in both

> and compression, but nothing like what you see with glass added.

>donschultz8275 wrote:
>snip
>Actually you have it almost entirely backwards. The resin holds the
>shape and resists some compression loads, while the fibers provide
>the strength in most every tension load.
>
>This is always true, even in ferro/cement construction. The steel is
>the strength. The cement does little more than keep the water out.
>
>It is also true that the fibers MUST resist tension loads as even a
>little stretch will crack, crumble, and otherwise wreck the resin.
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Meddock" <jmeddock@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


> Not really natural, but I have a couple of old delaminating
> Mylar/Kevlar sails laying around. I was thinking of pulling the mylar off
> and using the kevlar cloth for FG repair work.

>
>
>Marius Lubbe wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>snip
>I take the point of the writer who said that natural fibres will suck up
>more epoxy and make the work heavier. That makes a lot of sense, and would
>be valid if you constructed a whole boat of just glass and resin. We

>a looking for the most durable, easiest to work and most affordable

>for a single thin skin, that will also not check, (I believe its because

>fibres repel the resin, somewhat)!
>

>
>My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems to me that the
>resin is the thing that actually does the power thing, whereas the glass,

>cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that hold it all in shape and give
>it some bulk all over a large area in a uniform kind of way. My thinking

>impregnated natural fibre would be stronger than glass strands which is (it
>seems to me at least) a weak material. For example: If they made a cheap
>stainless steel cloth would that not be a fantastic almost bullet-proof

>cloth?
>

>
>You must please excuse my ignorance, but I am sure you will bear with my
>thinking somewhat out of the box. Actually it started with the book

>boatbuilding which suggest using anything that gets a boat together and
>floating. I am not looking to do that, but am wondering whether we are
>conditioned by DuPont & co.to use the glass, without thinking about it. BTW
>what was invented first ? the glass or the epoxy? Was glass fibres invented
>first and then they started looking for a binding agent, to make it useful
>as a construction material?
>

>
>I read somewhere about glass fibre boats not standing well up to knocks and
>cracking and crazing. Have you seen the little statuettes and models molded
>of resin. They look like they can stand being fired from a cannon, but

>is not too heavy!
>
>

>Hope this is not starting to bore you, but I think we should explore all

>alternatives.
>
>Regards
>Marius
>

>
>
>Marius Lubbe wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>snip
>I take the point of the writer who said that natural fibres will suck up
>more epoxy and make the work heavier. That makes a lot of sense, and would
>be valid if you constructed a whole boat of just glass and resin. We however
>a looking for the most durable, easiest to work and most affordable solution
>for a single thin skin, that will also not check, (I believe its because the
>fibres repel the resin, somewhat)!
>

>
>My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems to me that the
>resin is the thing that actually does the power thing, whereas the glass, or
>cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that hold it all in shape and give
>it some bulk all over a large area in a uniform kind of way. My thinking was
>impregnated natural fibre would be stronger than glass strands which is (it
>seems to me at least) a weak material. For example: If they made a cheap
>stainless steel cloth would that not be a fantastic almost bullet-proof base
>cloth?
>

>
>You must please excuse my ignorance, but I am sure you will bear with my
>thinking somewhat out of the box. Actually it started with the book Backyard
>boatbuilding which suggest using anything that gets a boat together and
>floating. I am not looking to do that, but am wondering whether we are
>conditioned by DuPont & co.to use the glass, without thinking about it. BTW
>what was invented first ? the glass or the epoxy? Was glass fibres invented
>first and then they started looking for a binding agent, to make it useful
>as a construction material?
>

>
>I read somewhere about glass fibre boats not standing well up to knocks and
>cracking and crazing. Have you seen the little statuettes and models molded
>of resin. They look like they can stand being fired from a cannon, but still
>is not too heavy!
>
>

>Hope this is not starting to bore you, but I think we should explore all the
>alternatives.
>
>Regards
>Marius
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>

> Actually, for small boats of 1/4" (6mm) plywood, the
> fabric and epoxy weight can be very significant.

Amen! I overdid it on Dadink and it came out at 100 lbs instead of the 80
lbs it was supposed to. Glassing the inside was a mistake.

> I have the impression that glass cloth was used with
> polyester resin first.

I think it was probably phenolic (which may be the same thing) and the
initial boards used paper, then linen, then fiberglass. I've got some
circuit components from the WW I era, and most steps in between. Anybody in
the market for a few dozen vacuum tube shields?

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

>
> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or

> or other natural fibre.

>Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ
>Dear Friends,
>
>I am a novice in these things and therefore ask that you bear with me if my
>thoughts seem weird.
>
>1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
>why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
>or other natural fibre.
>
>
>2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
>some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not why?
>
>Thanks
>Marius
>

>
> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or

> or other natural fibre.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>


> And glass would be unattractive to micro-organisms (e.g. bacteria,
> fungi), whereas certain kinds might like to eat plant material or
> silk. Glass is also more-or-less unaffected by most chemicals.
>
> Same possible problem with using wood flour to thicken epoxy, both
> chemical and biological. Limestone could be attacked by acids,
> possibly even mildly acidic rainwater/ Think of how limestone caves
> are formed.
>
> Howard

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ" <marius@c...>
> >
> > > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
> >
> > Strength! Glass which is free of impurities and small fractures is
> one of
> > the strongest materials on earth. With fibers, the flaws have
> already
> > broken. The combination of incredibly strong glass fibers with the
> elastic
> > nature of the cured epoxy is what makes the result better than
> either
> > element alone.
> >
> > > why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk
> or cotton
> > > or other natural fibre.
> >
> > Pretty weak stuff. Why add something that won't make the final
> product
> > better? Fiberglass cloth from an epoxy vendor is coated to promote
> the
> > bond.
> >
> > > 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn
> flour or
> > > some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets,
> if not
> > why?
> >
> > Wood flour would seem to fall into this category, and it is my
> favorite
> > filler. Other fillers offer different characteristics; e.g. lime
> for a hard
> > coating, silica thickener for colorless coating, silicon carbide for
> > incredible hardness, ...
> >
> > One purpose for a filler is to provide thixotropic properties.
> Unthickened
> > epoxy runs and runs and runs. (A model railroader cast a fine lake
> of
> > unthickened epoxy. The next morning, all of the epoxy was on the
> floor.
> > He'd left a pinhole in the lake bed.) Not all additives provide
> this.
> >
> > Quoting from System Three's "The Epoxy Book:"
> > SECTION VI C
> > USING FILLERS WITH EPOXY RESIN
> > System Three epoxy properly mixed is intended for both coating and
> > fiberglassing. When used "right out of the jug", the mixture is
> said to be
> > "unfilled" and it is too thin to be used as a gap filling adhesive
> or for
> > fairing and filleting compounds. For these applications certain
> fillers are
> > added. These materials change the flow and density characteristics
> of the
> > epoxy system.
> >
> > All fillers sold for use with System Three epoxy products are solid
> > materials, falling into four general classes: thixotropic agents,
> bulking
> > agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as
> to
> > function of certain fillers. For example, plastic minifibers is
> both fibrous
> > and acts also as a thixotropic agent.
> > Silica thickener (Cab-O-Sil), plastic minifibers and wood flourare
> > thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid.
> Most
> > people are not familiar with the term "thixotropic" though everyone
> is
> > familiar with the properties of these fluids. They flow under
> shear stress
> > but do not flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house
> paints
> > are thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and
> hardener
> > produces a fluid which will easily flow under the spreading stress
> of a
> > putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains
> shape.
> > In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging, being added to
> restrict
> > drainage and make gap filling adhesives.
> >
> > Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are
> bulking
> > agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like
> mix.
> > Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will make it
> > thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or
> microspheres to
> > make a non-sagging fairing putty will result in one that spreads
> poorly.
> > These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent.
> Silica
> > thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest
> compound.
> >
> > Chopped glass strands, milled glass fibers, and plastic minifibers
> are
> > fibrous materials that can be incorporated into structural
> filleting putties
> > to improve tensile strength, and are listed above in descending
> order of
> > tensile strength improvement.
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Lots of good stuff in this free publication, and it applies to most
> epoxy
> > vendor's products.
> >
> > Roger
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ" <marius@c...>
>
> > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> Strength! Glass which is free of impurities and small fractures is
one of
> the strongest materials on earth. With fibers, the flaws have
already
> broken. The combination of incredibly strong glass fibers with the
elastic
> nature of the cured epoxy is what makes the result better than
either
> element alone.
>
> > why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk
or cotton
> > or other natural fibre.
>
> Pretty weak stuff. Why add something that won't make the final
product
> better? Fiberglass cloth from an epoxy vendor is coated to promote
the
> bond.
>
> > 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn
flour or
> > some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets,
if not
> why?
>
> Wood flour would seem to fall into this category, and it is my
favorite
> filler. Other fillers offer different characteristics; e.g. lime
for a hard
> coating, silica thickener for colorless coating, silicon carbide for
> incredible hardness, ...
>
> One purpose for a filler is to provide thixotropic properties.
Unthickened
> epoxy runs and runs and runs. (A model railroader cast a fine lake
of
> unthickened epoxy. The next morning, all of the epoxy was on the
floor.
> He'd left a pinhole in the lake bed.) Not all additives provide
this.
>
> Quoting from System Three's "The Epoxy Book:"
> SECTION VI C
> USING FILLERS WITH EPOXY RESIN
> System Three epoxy properly mixed is intended for both coating and
> fiberglassing. When used "right out of the jug", the mixture is
said to be
> "unfilled" and it is too thin to be used as a gap filling adhesive
or for
> fairing and filleting compounds. For these applications certain
fillers are
> added. These materials change the flow and density characteristics
of the
> epoxy system.
>
> All fillers sold for use with System Three epoxy products are solid
> materials, falling into four general classes: thixotropic agents,
bulking
> agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as
to
> function of certain fillers. For example, plastic minifibers is
both fibrous
> and acts also as a thixotropic agent.
> Silica thickener (Cab-O-Sil), plastic minifibers and wood flourare
> thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid.
Most
> people are not familiar with the term "thixotropic" though everyone
is
> familiar with the properties of these fluids. They flow under
shear stress
> but do not flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house
paints
> are thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and
hardener
> produces a fluid which will easily flow under the spreading stress
of a
> putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains
shape.
> In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging, being added to
restrict
> drainage and make gap filling adhesives.
>
> Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are
bulking
> agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like
mix.
> Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will make it
> thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or
microspheres to
> make a non-sagging fairing putty will result in one that spreads
poorly.
> These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent.
Silica
> thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest
compound.
>
> Chopped glass strands, milled glass fibers, and plastic minifibers
are
> fibrous materials that can be incorporated into structural
filleting putties
> to improve tensile strength, and are listed above in descending
order of
> tensile strength improvement.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> Lots of good stuff in this free publication, and it applies to most
epoxy
> vendor's products.
>
> Roger

>snip Something like 200+ times(total guess i read this a
>while back) stronger than steel
>
>Glad to see biodegradable fishing line but kind of a scary way to go
>about it.
>
>Jason
>

>Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ
>Dear Friends,
>
>I am a novice in these things and therefore ask that you bear with me if my
>thoughts seem weird.
>
>1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
>why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
>or other natural fibre.
>
>
>2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
>some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not why?
>
>Thanks
>Marius
>

> They have put a spider gene in goats, so as the silk is produced in
> the goat's mammary glands. When the goat is milked the "silk"
> somehow precipitates into strands out of the milk.

> They have put a spider gene in goats,..

> Dear Friends,
>
> I am a novice in these things and therefore ask that you bear with me if my
> thoughts seem weird.
>
> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
> or other natural fibre.
>
>
> 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
> some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not why?
>
> Thanks
> Marius
>
> Marius Lubbe
> Creative MindsR HQ
> Cape Town, South Africa
> Phone: 082 785 7763
> www.minds.co.za
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> > Don't you need some kind of special tree to encourage/optimize
> silk worm
> > production?
>
> Mulberry bushes, IIRC from elementary school.
>
> There was an annoucement lately about artifical silk production. I
> forget if it was straight chemical or if, more likely, it had to

> with putting a silkworm gene in a spider (or some other, more
> tractable animal). I hope they don't put it in a cow!
>
> Peter

> Don't you need some kind of special tree to encourage/optimize

> production?

----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>


> > > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
> > Strength!
>
> They do say that silk is very strong. However, the has to be a match
> between the tensile and compressive strength coefficients between
> the fiber and the resin. And I don't know if it would wet out
> properly, or if there is chemical compatibility.

> > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
> Strength!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ" <marius@...>

> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?

Strength! Glass which is free of impurities and small fractures is one of
the strongest materials on earth. With fibers, the flaws have already
broken. The combination of incredibly strong glass fibers with the elastic
nature of the cured epoxy is what makes the result better than either
element alone.

> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
> or other natural fibre.

Pretty weak stuff. Why add something that won't make the final product
better? Fiberglass cloth from an epoxy vendor is coated to promote the
bond.

> 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
> some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not
why?

Wood flour would seem to fall into this category, and it is my favorite
filler. Other fillers offer different characteristics; e.g. lime for a hard
coating, silica thickener for colorless coating, silicon carbide for
incredible hardness, ...

One purpose for a filler is to provide thixotropic properties. Unthickened
epoxy runs and runs and runs. (A model railroader cast a fine lake of
unthickened epoxy. The next morning, all of the epoxy was on the floor.
He'd left a pinhole in the lake bed.) Not all additives provide this.

Quoting from System Three's "The Epoxy Book:"
SECTION VI C
USING FILLERS WITH EPOXY RESIN
System Three epoxy properly mixed is intended for both coating and
fiberglassing. When used "right out of the jug", the mixture is said to be
"unfilled" and it is too thin to be used as a gap filling adhesive or for
fairing and filleting compounds. For these applications certain fillers are
added. These materials change the flow and density characteristics of the
epoxy system.

All fillers sold for use with System Three epoxy products are solid
materials, falling into four general classes: thixotropic agents, bulking
agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as to
function of certain fillers. For example, plastic minifibers is both fibrous
and acts also as a thixotropic agent.
Silica thickener (Cab-O-Sil), plastic minifibers and wood flourare
thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid. Most
people are not familiar with the term "thixotropic" though everyone is
familiar with the properties of these fluids. They flow under shear stress
but do not flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house paints
are thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and hardener
produces a fluid which will easily flow under the spreading stress of a
putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains shape.
In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging, being added to restrict
drainage and make gap filling adhesives.

Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are bulking
agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like mix.
Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will make it
thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or microspheres to
make a non-sagging fairing putty will result in one that spreads poorly.
These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent. Silica
thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest compound.

Chopped glass strands, milled glass fibers, and plastic minifibers are
fibrous materials that can be incorporated into structural filleting putties
to improve tensile strength, and are listed above in descending order of
tensile strength improvement.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Lots of good stuff in this free publication, and it applies to most epoxy
vendor's products.

Roger

>1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
>why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
>or other natural fibre.

>2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
>some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not why?