RE: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

Lead produces lee helm (because the sail’s center of effort, CE, is
forward of the hull’s center of lateral resistance, CLR); more lead =
more lee helm. - Bill

-----Original Message-----
From:dangonn@...[mailto:dangonn@...]
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:31
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?

Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points
to give another
reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much
weather helm with my
Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite
tight so that I can
sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather
helm? The more
lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just
curious, thanks.

Hope that helps,

Dan

Long Micro pages:http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
> Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
> on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
> half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
> points shown on the original plans.
> I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
> slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
> dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
> that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
> over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
> into full gale mode :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan



Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Seems to me that's a good suggestion...adding another set of reef points to give another
reefing option for the conditions. I haven't suffered from too much weather helm with my
Long Micro (which has a similar rig). I keep the mizzen snotter quite tight so that I can
sheet in the mizzen a bit harder than the mainsail.

Wouldn't moving the mainsail forward increase (not decrease) weather helm? The more
lead the more weather helm, right? Or maybe I have this reversed. Just curious, thanks.

Hope that helps,

Dan

Long Micro pages:http://www.znw.com/homepage/zephyr.htm

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> wrote:
> Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
> on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
> half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
> points shown on the original plans.
> I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
> slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
> dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
> that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
> over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
> into full gale mode :-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
> Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
> Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

In Bolgerland,

Mizzen just for balance = yawl
Mizzen provides drive = ketch

Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
what
> do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


Todd,
I love that nifty image of your sampan! In particular,it has the
proportions such that it could be almost any size and still look
good. Lots of great interior room too,I suspect :-)
Sadly, I don't think it will help much in putting some fun back
into your Micro since it is begining to get further away from the
clean simple elegance afforded by the original Micro design.
Nevertheless, your rendering certainly merits further study and
perhaps even a proper design work-up,on a fresh clean sheet of
drafting paper. Imagine this design about 20' to 24' loa,with full
standing headroom,enclosed head,leeboards,flat steel-plate on
outside of hull bottom for ballast and grounding protection.....!
You could call it the TODDPAN 24 and market it world wide from
the confines of your own floating office which,of course, would be
the prototype of this new design offering :-)
Now that sounds like good fun to me :-)


Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
I also mean winds above 15knots not
> below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
helm
> and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
> weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
seems
> the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
the
> weather helm.
> Todd

Another thought; do you have two reef points or just the one shown
on the original Micro sail plan? I had a second one put in about
half way between the foot of the sail and the first(only) reef
points shown on the original plans.
I did this since I found that the original reefed main was only
slightly larger then the mizzen in area and just about left the boat
dead in the water in winds between 15 and about 25 knots.Putting in
that second set of reef points allowed me to have better control
over the amount of de-powering of the rig without going straight
into full gale mode :-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
The question
> has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
tabernackle
> and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
> increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
and
> or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
the
> standard rig?
>
> Todd

Hi Todd,
Just curious but if you are doing your sailing along the
beautiful sunny coast of Southern California,why would you need a
tabernacle for you mainmast anyway? Surely there can't be that many
low lying bridges to contend with :-)
As long as the center of effort for the junk mainsail remains
in the same postion as on the standard Micro rig,I think it fair to
conclude that handling the helm will be the same.
However,if you start shifting centers around without
considering other adjustments,then you could be setting yourself for
some disappointment.
Perhaps to get the best return on your proposed modification,it
would be best to write the designer for specs. best suited for your
needs?
Sorry I can't be more helpful :-(

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan
I'm just regurgitating what I've read and tried, not passing judgement.

My Chebacco is a looong way from launch, but it's tabernacle looks
interesting because the mast's foot is held into it with turnbuckles. Add a
spacer inside before tightening the turnbuckles and you've changed the mast
rake.

When I was planning and building my copy of Badger, a J. Benford designed
junk rig schooner featured in Annie Hill's great book "Voyaging on a Small
Income," I read everything I could find on the junk rig. I like it! The
bible for that one is Hassler and McCleod's "Practical Junk Rig." They
include the procedure (in excruciating detail) for converting from more
standard rigs. They also give some example rigs in the back of the book.

If you get hold of a copy, skim thru it first as they seem to cover the same
process several times and some explanations are clearer or more useful.
(There's also a lot of great, non-junk rig stuff shown; e.g. mast sizing and
construction, lightning protection, a conning dome and associated igloo-like
dodger, etc.)

Where they are talking of converting to a junk rig, they tend to keep the
center of the sail plan in the same place as it was on the original rig
IIRC. There's room to play here because there is (or can be) a line which
adjusts how much of the sail is forward of the mast. The junk sail is often
significantly larger than the sail it replaces because it's so easy to reef.

I don't think I'd bother trying to change the calculated lead when going to
a junk rig. The sail shapes are so different that it's apples and oranges.
I'd try it and then trim it.

> I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look
> what do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.

It does look like fun. You'll get more area up high where it isn't becalmed
by the waves as often, and you will start a lot of conversations.

Sheeting is a problem with the junk rig. I think the scheme you show will
interfere with the junk sail on the mizzen.

I'd try eliminating sheet #3 and combining #1 & #2 with an euphroe so you
have a single line to diddle. IIRC, they don't usually sheet the gaff or
topmost battan. Your scheme will give better control of the sail's sag, but
the winds are fairer aloft so that may not be needed.

The Chinese often have two sets of sheets, port and starboard, on each sail,
when the masts are too close together or the hull ends too soon.

Without calculating the centers of the sails, it doesn't look like you've
changed the CE for the main much at all. With the Chinese scheme of merging
the many into a single sheet, reefing is automatic -- no extra lines needed.
Just start the halyard, then tighten the sheet and the yard hauling parrel
at your leisure. The pull of the lower elements of the sheet automatically
holds the lower battans down where you want them, snuggled in their lazy
jacks.

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>


> Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed
> hands off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island
> fell asleep woke up just before hitting one of the farthest
> oil islands. Turned around and headed back. Sure could
> use more sail on the down hill rides.
> Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
> maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
> about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
> are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
> is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
> experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
> leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
> has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
> and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
> increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
> or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
> standard rig?
>
> Todd




>
>
> up --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more
> > than somewhat. It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that
> > exists only on paper and making sure it will not be too awful
> > when built, but once you have a hull and rig, your feel under
> > sail is a whole lot more useful.
> >
> > Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
> >
> > How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
> > objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
> main that
> > let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
> ( boat
> > heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
> >
> > Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
> to control
> > the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
> Do you
> > have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
> the CE
> > aft and increases the weather helm?
> >
> > Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
> change the
> > lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
> >
> > On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
> If you're
> > not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
> centerboard raised
> > a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
> of
> > lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
> weather
> > helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
> that "raising" the
> > CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
> area
> > significantly.
> >
> > Main mast rake?
> >
> > The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
> the
> > Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
> was
> > right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
> forward as
> > you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
> back
> > when I had abs.
> >
> > The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
> answers are
> > probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
> Have fun.
> >
> > Roger
> > derbyrm@s...
> > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
> > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
> >
> >
> > > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
> not
> > > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
> helm
> > > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
> > > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
> seems
> > > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
> the
> > > weather helm.
> > >
> > > How much leed would one need?
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
> wrote:
> > > > While we're picking on Jason ...
> > > >
> > > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
> > > Line.
> > > >
> > > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
> > > >
> > > > Roger :-)
> > > > derbyrm@s...
> > > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
> > > > >
> > > > > 417lbs
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Todd-

Once again my micro navigator is 60 days from launch so you know
better than I.

Have you thought about trying the navigator rig? More sail, with
more control and it's almost a junk rig. Bolger is finishing up a
sketch of the navigator with a larger mizzen and the main mast in a
tabernacle out in front of the bow transom.....maybe a battened
mizzen (heres hoping).

just a thought, i'll post some scans when my blue tube arrives.

Are those photos of the red and white micro your's?.....that's a
nice one.

Jason

>The question
> has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a
tabernackle
> and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
> increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm
and
> or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as
the
> standard rig?
Believe it or not I'm a pretty seasoned micro sailor. Sailed hands
off from the marina exit half way to catalina Island fell asleep woke
up just before hitting one of the farthest oil islands. Turned around
and headed back. Sure could use more sail on the down hill rides.
Another time out went right after a big storm big swells 6 to 8 feet
maybe even bigger, we were surrounded by water in the trough. Winds
about 15 to 18 knots. Over the three years off sailing my micro those
are the only two that where cause for any real excitment. The micro
is a great sailing craft I think but What do I know, only what I
experince. I don't have a problem with the reefing or a hook in the
leech. I'm not beating straight onto the wind either. The question
has risen from my interest in moving the mast foward on a tabernackle
and maybe adding a junk sail. I don't know much but would this
increase the percentage of leed and in turn reduce weather helm and
or be able to carry more sail area and not effect the balance as the
standard rig?

Todd

I posted a file of Todds micro sampan in bolgers 4 have a look what
do you think put some fun back into my micro I think.


up --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than
somewhat.
> It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper
and
> making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have
a hull
> and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.
>
> Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.
>
> How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
> objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed
main that
> let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side
( boat
> heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.
>
> Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension
to control
> the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy?
Do you
> have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves
the CE
> aft and increases the weather helm?
>
> Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will
change the
> lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.
>
> On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance?
If you're
> not beating to windward, you might be better off with the
centerboard raised
> a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center
of
> lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the
weather
> helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible
that "raising" the
> CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed
area
> significantly.
>
> Main mast rake?
>
> The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is
the
> Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat,"
was
> right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far
forward as
> you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was
back
> when I had abs.
>
> The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the
answers are
> probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with.
Have fun.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
> derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?
>
>
> > I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
not
> > below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
helm
> > and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
> > weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
seems
> > the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
the
> > weather helm.
> >
> > How much leed would one need?
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...>
wrote:
> > > While we're picking on Jason ...
> > >
> > > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
> > Line.
> > >
> > > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
> > >
> > > Roger :-)
> > > derbyrm@s...
> > > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
> > > >
> > > > 417lbs
That whole business of calculating the lead bothers me more than somewhat.
It may be a useful tool for taking a boat that exists only on paper and
making sure it will not be too awful when built, but once you have a hull
and rig, your feel under sail is a whole lot more useful.

Slacking the main sheet will reduce both heel and weather helm.

How much heel are you experiencing when the weather helm becomes
objectionable? Perhaps you'd be happier with a more deeply reefed main that
let her sail more upright. Once the sail thrust is off to the side ( boat
heeled), it is trying to drive the bow into the wind.

Sail shape (full or flat)? Vanged? Change luff and foot tension to control
the shape? Have the sail re-cut for the higher winds you enjoy? Do you
have the leech line pulled too tight so that the cupped leach moves the CE
aft and increases the weather helm?

Is she on her lines, fore and aft? Changing the pitch trim will change the
lead, but which way depends on the hull's lines.

On what point of sail are you most unhappy with the helm balance? If you're
not beating to windward, you might be better off with the centerboard raised
a little. In my mind, raising the centerboard will move the center of
lateral resistance aft and thus increase the lead and reduce the weather
helm. (Unlike a dagger board.) Actually, it's possible that "raising" the
CB a few inches will just move it aft and not reduce the exposed area
significantly.

Main mast rake?

The only boat that I have sufficient experience with personally is the
Sunfish, and all I proved is that the racing bible, "Sail It Flat," was
right. Running, you're all the way aft. Beating, you're as far forward as
you can get and still hike out to keep the mast vertical. That was back
when I had abs.

The Micro has a very different hull than the Sunfish, so the answers are
probably different, but there are a lot of things to play with. Have fun.

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd" <ktsrfer@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 8:36 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: How much sail lead in a micro?


> I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
> below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
> and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
> weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
> the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
> weather helm.
>
> How much leed would one need?
>
> Todd
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > While we're picking on Jason ...
> >
> > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
> Line.
> >
> > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
> >
> > Roger :-)
> > derbyrm@s...
> > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> >
> >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
> > >
> > > 417lbs
You don't have a hook in the leach of your mainsail do you Todd?
This often causes weather helm. Short battens cures it usually.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots
not
> below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather
helm
> and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
> weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it
seems
> the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out
the
> weather helm.
>
> How much leed would one need?
>
> Todd
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > While we're picking on Jason ...
> >
> > Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
> Line.
> >
> > Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
> >
> > Roger :-)
> > derbyrm@s...
> > derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> >
> >
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
> > >
> > > 417lbs
I wanted to know how much leed? I also mean winds above 15knots not
below 15mph. With the mizzen sheeted tight still lots of weather helm
and when main sail is reefed with mizzen still flying eases the
weather helm sure butt we have wicked short steep chop and it seems
the hull could handle more sail area but I would like it with out the
weather helm.

How much leed would one need?

Todd

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> While we're picking on Jason ...
>
> Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water
Line.
>
> Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.
>
> Roger :-)
> derbyrm@s...
> derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
>
>
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
> >
> > 417lbs
While we're picking on Jason ...

Sail lead (leed) is measured as a percentage of the Load Water Line.

Lead (led) for ballest is measured in pounds.

Roger :-)
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>


> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> > So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?
>
> 417lbs
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up
yet?

Just swimmingly,if I do say so myself :-) Oh yes,the bottom is right
side up,the 4 major bulkheads are up and the massive 8 X 32 (aprox.)
side panels built and ready to be installed.......just gotta do a dry
fit trial first.
Pictures are in the wings waiting to be scanned before posting.Within
a week I figure.
Thanks for asking:-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,from along the shores of the St.Lawrence.........
> For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-
ketch.....nitpicky
> perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

Yeah, yeah, i had a brain fart. Like i said mine is still a heap in
the basement

Mizzen behind the helm = yawl
Mizzen forward of helm = ketch

Jason

How is that monster you are building coming along? Right side up yet?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
Hi Todd,

10 to 15 knots is PERFECT sailing air for the Micro! As for
your helm problem,alot will be solved by not dousing the mizzen.It
acts in many ways as a wind rudder but,more importantly,to give back
what essentially was removed from the rudder(in area) when compared
to a traditional catboat with its' "barn door" rudder.
When the winds are much above 15 knots,you should ensure that;a)
the mizzen is sheeted in tight and the snotter snugged up tight too,
and b) that the mainsail snotter is also drawn up tight for a really
flat sail. If those conditions make you feel a bit un-easy or simply
difficult to hold a beer and steer at the same time,then a reef in
the mainsail will return things to a happy sailing stance conducive
to un-laboured relaxation :-)
For Jason: the Micro is a cat-yawl,not a cat-ketch.....nitpicky
perhaps but thats' how Bolger calls it:-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,ex Micro owner/builder reduced to a busy boatbuilder
with a fierce thirst for cold beverages various..........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Todd" <ktsrfer@m...> wrote:
> So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig?

417lbs

I noticed
> when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the
> tiller gets really heavy even with the mizzen doused. Wouldn't it
> help to move the main mast foward or Maybe a different sail
> configuration lug or junk to move the sail more foward with out
> having to reef and slow down?

Mine is'nt even built yet and i am unfamilar with the cat ketch, so
i could be totally wrong you know better than me......but, you may
be striking the mizzen a bit early. I believe it's there to ease the
helm produced by having all the sail forward. I would think it would
be better to reef the main first. If the wind is strong enough for a
reef it ought to be running hull speed regardless.

If you saw that micro for sale the other day.....posted by
shorty....it had a balanced lug, with the mast in a tabernacle up
against the front bulkhead. The lug's center of effort is forward of
the sprit so the mast would have to come back to retain balance.


> Also thinking instead of the navigator cabin how about a sampan
aft
> cabin on the micro. I was thinking of recutting the sheer and
> extending the sheer aft 18'' or so and adding some rake to the
stern.
> Then build the cabin from the stern foward. But still end up
sitting
> about where you would with the navigator cabin. End up with a
micro
> Sampan.

sounds like a great pelican, would be interesting.


Jason
So how much lead is built in a micro with its original rig? I noticed
when the wind comes up to a steady 15 knots under full sails the
tiller gets really heavy even with the mizzen doused. Wouldn't it
help to move the main mast foward or Maybe a different sail
configuration lug or junk to move the sail more foward with out
having to reef and slow down?

Also thinking instead of the navigator cabin how about a sampan aft
cabin on the micro. I was thinking of recutting the sheer and
extending the sheer aft 18'' or so and adding some rake to the stern.
Then build the cabin from the stern foward. But still end up sitting
about where you would with the navigator cabin. End up with a micro
Sampan.

Todd