Re: [bolger] Re: Loose Footed Lug on Martha Jane
>Derek--Your analysis is correct if the foot of the sail is lashed to theYes, exactly. Plus increased sheet loads will bend the boom even more. If
>boom every 6 to 12 inches. If the sail is loose footed (which is where
>this thread began) i.e. the sail is fastened to the boom only by its
>corners, increased downhaul tension will tend to bend the boom and the
>sail will become fuller. The solution is a much stiffer boom than you
>might think would be necessary.
the mast is bendy, there will never be a tight luff whether or not the sail
is laced at the foot. The more downhaul, the more (mast) bend.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
Derek--Your analysis is correct if the foot of the sail is lashed to the boom every 6 to 12 inches. If the sail is loose footed (which is where this thread began) i.e. the sail is fastened to the boom only by its corners, increased downhaul tension will tend to bend the boom and the sail will become fuller. The solution is a much stiffer boom than you might think would be necessary.
If you can live with the way a lug comes down when you lower it (the peak comes down first), the balanced lug has a lot going for it. It offers a lot of area on a low rig. It is more or less self-vanging. If you can keep the leading edge tight, it is close winded. Jibes are fairly gentle, and the sail is easy to control. If you reef it to the aft end of the boom, it can be reefed a lot without changing the center of effort and producing a lee helm. While it can be argued that the sail blowing against the mast on one tack spoils the shape, I have never been able to find any discernible difference in performance between one tack and the other. All in all, if you are not convinced that a leg of mutton, sloop rig is the only way to go, a balanced lug is a good choice.
John T
If you can live with the way a lug comes down when you lower it (the peak comes down first), the balanced lug has a lot going for it. It offers a lot of area on a low rig. It is more or less self-vanging. If you can keep the leading edge tight, it is close winded. Jibes are fairly gentle, and the sail is easy to control. If you reef it to the aft end of the boom, it can be reefed a lot without changing the center of effort and producing a lee helm. While it can be argued that the sail blowing against the mast on one tack spoils the shape, I have never been able to find any discernible difference in performance between one tack and the other. All in all, if you are not convinced that a leg of mutton, sloop rig is the only way to go, a balanced lug is a good choice.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Waters
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Loose Footed Lug on Martha Jane
Hi Craig
You have much more lugsail experience than I, and I don't doubt you, but I
'm not understanding something...
Balanced Lug; light wind, spars straight, sail full. When the wind pipes up,
racking down on the boom downhaul beside the mast pulls the yard and boom
into bows. Luff and leech remain pulled straight and the belly is pulled out
of the sail to fill the spar curves; result, flatter sail. Of course, that
doesn't work if the sail is loose footed :)
Or so it has seemed to me on the water. What am I missing?
cheers
Derek
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Craig
You have much more lugsail experience than I, and I don't doubt you, but I
'm not understanding something...
Balanced Lug; light wind, spars straight, sail full. When the wind pipes up,
racking down on the boom downhaul beside the mast pulls the yard and boom
into bows. Luff and leech remain pulled straight and the belly is pulled out
of the sail to fill the spar curves; result, flatter sail. Of course, that
doesn't work if the sail is loose footed :)
Or so it has seemed to me on the water. What am I missing?
cheers
Derek
You have much more lugsail experience than I, and I don't doubt you, but I
'm not understanding something...
Balanced Lug; light wind, spars straight, sail full. When the wind pipes up,
racking down on the boom downhaul beside the mast pulls the yard and boom
into bows. Luff and leech remain pulled straight and the belly is pulled out
of the sail to fill the spar curves; result, flatter sail. Of course, that
doesn't work if the sail is loose footed :)
Or so it has seemed to me on the water. What am I missing?
cheers
Derek
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:15:48 -0400, craig o'donnell wrote:
Is this the Michalak lugsail essay you are talking about?
I suspect there might be more than one.
> Jim Michalak's essay on lugsails covers a lot of this well.http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/1998/1115/
Is this the Michalak lugsail essay you are talking about?
I suspect there might be more than one.
>I would have thought the boom on a lugNo, actually it does, probably more load and less predictable than with a
>would not have the loading of the rig I was talking about.
modern triangular sail. Tood Bradshaw claims a sailmaker can compensate for
bendy lug spars in cutting the sail, but I think he's insane to therefore
suggest that you don't need stiff lug spars. OK, the sailmaker has cut the
sail to compensate for a bending yard and a bending boom. Oops. The sail is
now optimized for exactly one windspeed. More bend? Sail goes tubby. Not
what you want as the wind pipes up. Less wind? Oops. Sail goes flat. Not
what you want when the wind is light.
The reason is twofold. I've fought with bendy lug spars (wound up epoxying
stiffeners to the spars) in small and medium sized boats, and a lug spar
what bends ruins the set of the sail. And two, I've seen far too many badly
cut lug sails from "professional sailmakers". I hope, for example, that
they have changed sailmakers or cut, but the Eastport Pram sails from UK
which CLC was selling with their kit are the worst lugsails I've ever seen.
Why? because the sailmaker's real business is stuff for J24s and they just
slap these out. If you buy an Eastport Pram and plan to sail it, get a sail
from someone else.
I wouldn't want to depend on Tood's contention when picking a random
sailmaker. I think you're better off with fat spars and a hunk of polytarp.
In playing around with many lugsails and some loose footed spritsails I've
come to the conclusion that you cut a small boat lugsail with a lot more
camber than seems obvious. Too much camber is better in a light boat than
too little. Too little and you won't go in light airs, and the windspeed
where the sail might develop power is going to be such that you're not
typically having a great time in a small boat (you probably wouldn't go out
in it anyway; you might find yourself dealing with it if you went out when
the wind was lighter, of course) , not to mention the fact that in the ways
that say 15 kt kicks up your small boat sail is going to be whipping all
over the place and not developing power anyway.
When you think about the number of degrees of freedom in the rig you
realize that a triangular sail with bendy spars is very tightly
constrained. Only the leech is free to flap and even those are sometimes
battened or controlled by leech lines. The mast is held in place by shrouds
or stays and often stay tension is used to bend or unbend the mast.
A lugsail is attached at two points, tack and halyard. No shrouds. If the
luff of a lugsail is not bar-taut, the sail will not set well. You need
non-bendy spars and a fat mast, and nonstretch line for halyard and
downhaul. I prefer a 3:1 tackle on the downhaul so I can really yank the
luff tight. Attaching the halyard at the proper point is important too.
Jim Michalak's essay on lugsails covers a lot of this well.
I'm oversimplifying a little but that's the gist.
On the other hand Stu at Dabbler can probably cut whatever you ask for,
however you ask for it, and do a great job. He's a specialist. He'll charge
accordingly. It's worth it. Ask Hugh Horton.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
I was really pointing out that there was no problem even with a
highly stressed modern rig. I would have thought the boom on a lug
would not have the loading of the rig I was talking about.
Yes, we also took the clew adjustment forward as you say.
DonB
highly stressed modern rig. I would have thought the boom on a lug
would not have the loading of the rig I was talking about.
Yes, we also took the clew adjustment forward as you say.
DonB
> And this was a racing lug? Love to see one....and bendy
>
> The problem with lug spars is that they are easy to make too thin
> when made of wood. They must not bend. Remember that stiffnessincreases as
> the 3rd or 4th power (can never remember) of the diameter.stuffness. Adding
>
> So adding an inch to a 1" spar makes a huge difference in
> an inch to a 12" spar doesn't make it all that much stiffer. We'redealing
> with the lower end of this range.Bermudian
>
> Bendy rigs on "modern" boats are different. A lugsail is not a
> sail. The tension is different, the mechanics are different.easy for a
>
> My point about the outhaul is that I'm not sure that it will be
> singlehander, given the non-open-boat nature of a Martha Jane, toreach the
> outhaul when actually under way. That is, without coming up intothe wind
> and stopping. A similar problem can be encountered on sprit-boomedleg of
> mutton sails if you don't lead the snotter line aft close to thetiller.
> --Junks,
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
>I don't want to put words in the mouth of your sailmaker, but I thinkIt's not my sailmaker. I'm pointing out that the mast of an MJ is way up
>that he would feel that the difference between the set and use of the
>loose-foote and the attached foot is minimial.
front, and the cockpit is way in back.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
> My point about the outhaul is that I'm not sure that itI don't want to put words in the mouth of your sailmaker, but I think
> will be easy for a singlehander, given the non-open-boat
> nature of a Martha Jane, to reach the outhaul when actually
> under way.
that he would feel that the difference between the set and use of the
loose-foote and the attached foot is minimial. He would expect that
the outhaul would be used in a similar way with each type of sail to
control the flatness of the sail. The strain of the attached foot on
its lashings is minimal. The fall of the clew outhaul should be led
far enough forward along the boom that it can be reached easily when
an adjustment is needed.
Peter
>My trailer sailer with aAnd this was a racing lug? Love to see one....
>light alloy boom, loose foot, boom vang and highly tensioned racing
>rig never collapsed, was easy to adjust with 2 part outhaul, and the
>draft of the sail was controllable to the last inch.
The problem with lug spars is that they are easy to make too thin and bendy
when made of wood. They must not bend. Remember that stiffness increases as
the 3rd or 4th power (can never remember) of the diameter.
So adding an inch to a 1" spar makes a huge difference in stuffness. Adding
an inch to a 12" spar doesn't make it all that much stiffer. We're dealing
with the lower end of this range.
Bendy rigs on "modern" boats are different. A lugsail is not a Bermudian
sail. The tension is different, the mechanics are different.
My point about the outhaul is that I'm not sure that it will be easy for a
singlehander, given the non-open-boat nature of a Martha Jane, to reach the
outhaul when actually under way. That is, without coming up into the wind
and stopping. A similar problem can be encountered on sprit-boomed leg of
mutton sails if you don't lead the snotter line aft close to the tiller.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
With respect, I think most here are talking about much larger
mainsails than a Martha Jane's, and making the loads on this sized
boat seem much more dramatic than they are. My trailer sailer with a
light alloy boom, loose foot, boom vang and highly tensioned racing
rig never collapsed, was easy to adjust with 2 part outhaul, and the
draft of the sail was controllable to the last inch. And efficient,
because the sail shape was maintained right down to the foot.
I think your sailmaker knows what he is doing. Give it a go as
is....it ain't rocket science.
DonB
mainsails than a Martha Jane's, and making the loads on this sized
boat seem much more dramatic than they are. My trailer sailer with a
light alloy boom, loose foot, boom vang and highly tensioned racing
rig never collapsed, was easy to adjust with 2 part outhaul, and the
draft of the sail was controllable to the last inch. And efficient,
because the sail shape was maintained right down to the foot.
I think your sailmaker knows what he is doing. Give it a go as
is....it ain't rocket science.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
> >So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make
> >them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no
problems
> >with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
> >sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of
drive.
> >My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying
to
> >give me more options than I need.
>
>
> ... my two cents.
>
> In theory, he's right about the outhaul. However, the sail has to
be rigged
> correctly to even do what he's suggesting, with a long outhaul
pennant
> running back toward the mast from the clew. It would probably need
a
> purchase. it seems like a complicating factor.
>
> True that loose-footed sails are "traditional" but they are a pain
in the
> ass off wind. On the CLC Skerry, Jay Hockenberry and I developed a
> sheeting system for a loose footed & boomless sail that worked
pretty well
> and gave you a 3:1 purchase so you could really flatten the sail
in.
>
> But the real reason "traditional" sails had no boom was that the
boom was
> in the way of the fishing gear.
>
> Conor O'Brien used a system of vangs with a boomless sail to get
good
> shape, but it really requires a particular rig.
>
> A loose-footed lugsail can very easily develop lousy shape and
requires a
> very stout boom. Sails laced to a boom spread the compression
loads more
> easily. English yachties in the late 1800s finally came around to
sails
> laced to booms after American boats with such sails kept whompin'
them in
> races.
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese
Junks,
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
Mark--You keep the leach of a lug sail taut (necessary for windward performance) by pulling hard on the downhaul. For a lug sail which is attached to the boom only by its corners, your boom will take on the characteristics of a bow. I replaced a 1 1/2" diameter boom with a 1x4 boom (tapered toward the ends) to solve this problem on a 57 sq. ft balanced lug. If it is not too late, I would throw a T section boom together and try the sail for awhile as the sailmaker built it. If you're not happy, send it back to him after your sailing season is over and have the sail rebuilt to your specs.
All of the boats which I have built have been works in progress as I fiddle with them to bring them closer to what I think I want. Often, improvements result. But not always...
John T
All of the boats which I have built have been works in progress as I fiddle with them to bring them closer to what I think I want. Often, improvements result. But not always...
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: alaskamaz
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:17 AM
Subject: [bolger] Loose Footed Lug on Martha Jane
Greetings Bolgeristas,
I need your help:
I just received a new suit of sails (tanbark!) from my sail maker for
my Martha Jane, SELKIE. Until now he's made small sails for me, this
was the first time he'd made a suit for the MJ. To my surprise, there
were no lashing grommets on the foot of the sail, as I have on my
current suit. When I asked about this, I received the following reply:
"There were no grommets indicated for the foot of the sail so I made
it like every other lug and sprit sail, with foot roach as for a loose
foot sail. If this does not appeal to you or suit your sail handling
or trimming I can change it. I think you should try it as a loose
footed sail for a short period of time for these reasons. When you
are sailing in real light air, ease the clew outhaul. This gives the
sail more shape, thus developing more power and continue to sail off
your pointing angle. When you develop enough speed, and apparent
wind, then come up a little higher. When the wind begins, or is
stronger, pull the outhaul tighter to flatten the foot out, this
flattens the sail, minimizing power. One should not set the outhaul
tight and leave it, you are narrowing the sail range of performance.
I designed shape, (camber) in the foot of the mainsail in hopes it
would make the boat perform better in light to medium wind range. If
the boom can't take this, I can change it so the sail can be lashed to
the boom. This is the first true lug or sprit sail I have made that
was lashed to a boom, all have been boomless."
While this makes sense, I don't recall seeing any other MJs with a
loose foot--all that I've seen appear to have the foot lashed to the
boom. I realize that on the plans it shows no lashings, but neither
does the plan show lashing on the mainsail yard. Have all sailmakers
but mine have understood there to be lashings, or have you all
specifically asked for them? My only previous suit was made by Hunter
and Gamble (or Gamble and Hunter, rules dislexia!) and they had made
suits for Steve Anderson and possibly others before mine.
So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make
them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no problems
with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of drive.
My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying to
give me more options than I need.
I'll appreciate your input.
Mark Zeiger
Juneau, AK
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>In the case of a balance lug sail, like Martha Jane, perhaps theYou really should have the sheet running on a bridle to spread the sheet
>stress from the sheeting poing [in from the clew] and the
>location where the boom connects to the mast [inward from
>the tack] might indeed put lots of bend into the boom.
>You might need a more stout boom, but that would be easy
>to do.
load to at least 2 points on the boom if the sail is loose-footed.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
>So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make... my two cents.
>them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no problems
>with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
>sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of drive.
>My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying to
>give me more options than I need.
In theory, he's right about the outhaul. However, the sail has to be rigged
correctly to even do what he's suggesting, with a long outhaul pennant
running back toward the mast from the clew. It would probably need a
purchase. it seems like a complicating factor.
True that loose-footed sails are "traditional" but they are a pain in the
ass off wind. On the CLC Skerry, Jay Hockenberry and I developed a
sheeting system for a loose footed & boomless sail that worked pretty well
and gave you a 3:1 purchase so you could really flatten the sail in.
But the real reason "traditional" sails had no boom was that the boom was
in the way of the fishing gear.
Conor O'Brien used a system of vangs with a boomless sail to get good
shape, but it really requires a particular rig.
A loose-footed lugsail can very easily develop lousy shape and requires a
very stout boom. Sails laced to a boom spread the compression loads more
easily. English yachties in the late 1800s finally came around to sails
laced to booms after American boats with such sails kept whompin' them in
races.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
Quoting Bolger Rig 12 - Shoulder-o'-Mutton
"A loose-footed sail with a long foot needs a stiff boom.
Since all the stress is concentrated at the end of the boom,
there's a tendency for ti to sag of its own weight, and as
soon as it goes slightly out of line, the compression from the
outhaul and sheet (which is the whole force driving the boat)
acts to increase the bend. The sheet has to be attached close
to the clew, and no vang can be used, because it would only add
still more to bending the boom. Such a rig has bad manners
running before a strong wind, though the downward action of the
drooping foot of the sail dampens the gyrations of the boom
somewhat."
===
In the case of a balance lug sail, like Martha Jane, perhaps the
stress from the sheeting poing [in from the clew] and the
location where the boom connects to the mast [inward from
the tack] might indeed put lots of bend into the boom.
You might need a more stout boom, but that would be easy
to do.
"A loose-footed sail with a long foot needs a stiff boom.
Since all the stress is concentrated at the end of the boom,
there's a tendency for ti to sag of its own weight, and as
soon as it goes slightly out of line, the compression from the
outhaul and sheet (which is the whole force driving the boat)
acts to increase the bend. The sheet has to be attached close
to the clew, and no vang can be used, because it would only add
still more to bending the boom. Such a rig has bad manners
running before a strong wind, though the downward action of the
drooping foot of the sail dampens the gyrations of the boom
somewhat."
===
In the case of a balance lug sail, like Martha Jane, perhaps the
stress from the sheeting poing [in from the clew] and the
location where the boom connects to the mast [inward from
the tack] might indeed put lots of bend into the boom.
You might need a more stout boom, but that would be easy
to do.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alaskamaz" <mzeiger@h...> wrote:
Hi Mark,
Based solely on my experience working the snotter on a Micro,I
cannot help but think that your sailmakers suggestion is right on the
money.
The ability to simply alter the draft of the sail by tugging on a
line is an elegant enhancement to an otherwise "primitive" rig.Being
able to tweek every bit of energy out of light airs and/or to
maintain near perfect control of the sail in stronger winds is a
feature not to be passed on lightly.
Besides,you do not have to be a racing speed demon to become a
better sailor and a better sailor is exactly what you'll become as
you discover for yourself how nice it is to really "control" your
sail shape.
And so I vote in favour of keeping her loose footed for at least
the rest of your sailing season,short as that may be :-(
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,with fond memories of feeling amazed at my boats
performance once I learned how to use the snotter to best advantage
in controlling sail shape,from along the shores of the
St.Lawrence........
A previous trailer sailer I had (not Bolger design) had a loose
foot,with adjustable clew. It worked very well, just as your
sailmaker says.
DonB
foot,with adjustable clew. It worked very well, just as your
sailmaker says.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "alaskamaz" <mzeiger@h...> wrote:
> Greetings Bolgeristas,
>
> I need your help:
>
> I just received a new suit of sails (tanbark!) from my sail maker
for
> my Martha Jane, SELKIE. Until now he's made small sails for me,
this
> was the first time he'd made a suit for the MJ. To my surprise,
there
> were no lashing grommets on the foot of the sail, as I have on my
> current suit. When I asked about this, I received the following
reply:
>
> "There were no grommets indicated for the foot of the sail so I
made
> it like every other lug and sprit sail, with foot roach as for a
loose
> foot sail. If this does not appeal to you or suit your sail
handling
> or trimming I can change it. I think you should try it as a loose
> footed sail for a short period of time for these reasons. When
you
> are sailing in real light air, ease the clew outhaul. This gives
the
> sail more shape, thus developing more power and continue to sail
off
> your pointing angle. When you develop enough speed, and apparent
> wind, then come up a little higher. When the wind begins, or is
> stronger, pull the outhaul tighter to flatten the foot out, this
> flattens the sail, minimizing power. One should not set the
outhaul
> tight and leave it, you are narrowing the sail range of
performance.
> I designed shape, (camber) in the foot of the mainsail in hopes it
> would make the boat perform better in light to medium wind range.
If
> the boom can't take this, I can change it so the sail can be
lashed to
> the boom. This is the first true lug or sprit sail I have made
that
> was lashed to a boom, all have been boomless."
>
> While this makes sense, I don't recall seeing any other MJs with a
> loose foot--all that I've seen appear to have the foot lashed to
the
> boom. I realize that on the plans it shows no lashings, but neither
> does the plan show lashing on the mainsail yard. Have all
sailmakers
> but mine have understood there to be lashings, or have you all
> specifically asked for them? My only previous suit was made by
Hunter
> and Gamble (or Gamble and Hunter, rules dislexia!) and they had
made
> suits for Steve Anderson and possibly others before mine.
>
> So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make
> them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no
problems
> with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
> sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of
drive.
> My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying to
> give me more options than I need.
>
> I'll appreciate your input.
>
> Mark Zeiger
> Juneau, AK
Is your sailmaker close enough to you to sail with you?
When I have bought sails for my plastic boats my local guy always
goes out with me to help tune the sail settings, and to check performance
and sail shape on the boat (and to make sure I am not doing anything stupid
to destroy his craftsmanship, I am sure).
I bet your guy could show you approximately what the sail shape and
performance
would be like if lashed to boom, and contrast it with what you are able to
do
with what he provided you.
Justin
When I have bought sails for my plastic boats my local guy always
goes out with me to help tune the sail settings, and to check performance
and sail shape on the boat (and to make sure I am not doing anything stupid
to destroy his craftsmanship, I am sure).
I bet your guy could show you approximately what the sail shape and
performance
would be like if lashed to boom, and contrast it with what you are able to
do
with what he provided you.
Justin
----- Original Message -----
From: "alaskamaz" <mzeiger@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:17 AM
Subject: [bolger] Loose Footed Lug on Martha Jane
> Greetings Bolgeristas,
>
> I need your help:
>
I strongly suspect that Bolger intended the foot of the sail
to be lashed to the boom. In his book 102 Sail Rigs,
when the sail *is* loose footed with a boom (as with Rigs 12, 66, 78)
he clearly draws the sail loose and curved at the foot.
On the Martha Jane drawings, and on the Balanced Lug [Rig 17]
diagram in 102 Sail Rigs, the foot of the sail is not drawn curved,
and must therefore be fastened to the boom, IMO.
[even though the fastenings don't show on the drawing.]
This question could be quickly cleared up by faxing it to Bolger.
Trying a loose foot as your sailmaker recommends could be
worthwhile too.
to be lashed to the boom. In his book 102 Sail Rigs,
when the sail *is* loose footed with a boom (as with Rigs 12, 66, 78)
he clearly draws the sail loose and curved at the foot.
On the Martha Jane drawings, and on the Balanced Lug [Rig 17]
diagram in 102 Sail Rigs, the foot of the sail is not drawn curved,
and must therefore be fastened to the boom, IMO.
[even though the fastenings don't show on the drawing.]
This question could be quickly cleared up by faxing it to Bolger.
Trying a loose foot as your sailmaker recommends could be
worthwhile too.
Greetings Bolgeristas,
I need your help:
I just received a new suit of sails (tanbark!) from my sail maker for
my Martha Jane, SELKIE. Until now he's made small sails for me, this
was the first time he'd made a suit for the MJ. To my surprise, there
were no lashing grommets on the foot of the sail, as I have on my
current suit. When I asked about this, I received the following reply:
"There were no grommets indicated for the foot of the sail so I made
it like every other lug and sprit sail, with foot roach as for a loose
foot sail. If this does not appeal to you or suit your sail handling
or trimming I can change it. I think you should try it as a loose
footed sail for a short period of time for these reasons. When you
are sailing in real light air, ease the clew outhaul. This gives the
sail more shape, thus developing more power and continue to sail off
your pointing angle. When you develop enough speed, and apparent
wind, then come up a little higher. When the wind begins, or is
stronger, pull the outhaul tighter to flatten the foot out, this
flattens the sail, minimizing power. One should not set the outhaul
tight and leave it, you are narrowing the sail range of performance.
I designed shape, (camber) in the foot of the mainsail in hopes it
would make the boat perform better in light to medium wind range. If
the boom can't take this, I can change it so the sail can be lashed to
the boom. This is the first true lug or sprit sail I have made that
was lashed to a boom, all have been boomless."
While this makes sense, I don't recall seeing any other MJs with a
loose foot--all that I've seen appear to have the foot lashed to the
boom. I realize that on the plans it shows no lashings, but neither
does the plan show lashing on the mainsail yard. Have all sailmakers
but mine have understood there to be lashings, or have you all
specifically asked for them? My only previous suit was made by Hunter
and Gamble (or Gamble and Hunter, rules dislexia!) and they had made
suits for Steve Anderson and possibly others before mine.
So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make
them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no problems
with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of drive.
My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying to
give me more options than I need.
I'll appreciate your input.
Mark Zeiger
Juneau, AK
I need your help:
I just received a new suit of sails (tanbark!) from my sail maker for
my Martha Jane, SELKIE. Until now he's made small sails for me, this
was the first time he'd made a suit for the MJ. To my surprise, there
were no lashing grommets on the foot of the sail, as I have on my
current suit. When I asked about this, I received the following reply:
"There were no grommets indicated for the foot of the sail so I made
it like every other lug and sprit sail, with foot roach as for a loose
foot sail. If this does not appeal to you or suit your sail handling
or trimming I can change it. I think you should try it as a loose
footed sail for a short period of time for these reasons. When you
are sailing in real light air, ease the clew outhaul. This gives the
sail more shape, thus developing more power and continue to sail off
your pointing angle. When you develop enough speed, and apparent
wind, then come up a little higher. When the wind begins, or is
stronger, pull the outhaul tighter to flatten the foot out, this
flattens the sail, minimizing power. One should not set the outhaul
tight and leave it, you are narrowing the sail range of performance.
I designed shape, (camber) in the foot of the mainsail in hopes it
would make the boat perform better in light to medium wind range. If
the boom can't take this, I can change it so the sail can be lashed to
the boom. This is the first true lug or sprit sail I have made that
was lashed to a boom, all have been boomless."
While this makes sense, I don't recall seeing any other MJs with a
loose foot--all that I've seen appear to have the foot lashed to the
boom. I realize that on the plans it shows no lashings, but neither
does the plan show lashing on the mainsail yard. Have all sailmakers
but mine have understood there to be lashings, or have you all
specifically asked for them? My only previous suit was made by Hunter
and Gamble (or Gamble and Hunter, rules dislexia!) and they had made
suits for Steve Anderson and possibly others before mine.
So let the debate begin: try something new, or insist that he make
them as the designer (apparently) intended? I have noticed no problems
with the sail in light conditions, but I'm not such an experienced
sailor that I know how or care to eek out every last ounce of drive.
My sailmaker is a racer, which makes me think he might be trying to
give me more options than I need.
I'll appreciate your input.
Mark Zeiger
Juneau, AK