Re: AS-29's current form
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
Great point Jeff and one worth seriously exploring by anyone
contemplating a steel boat.My boat yard neighbour,who is building a
Roberts 40, regularly makes so much noise, either hammering or
grinding his welds, that I can hardly hear myself think(not that
there is all that much going on up in my attic)but it is I who must
wear ear plugs! Too bad there was not a way to build it so that it
could be tuned,like a steel drum,all fired up for some Calypso
music :-)Fortunately,he mostly works on Fridays and Saturdays but he
tells me he has a few weeks vacation coming up in the middle of
August...aaaaiiiieeeeeee!!!!!!!
About the only way a person could pull off this sort of ear-drum
shattering racket in their"backyard" would be if they lived in an
area zoned for industrial...heavy industry...manufacturing. I cannot
imagine a regular neighbourhood ever putting up with it for very
long.At least not as long as it takes a part-timer to build a
boat..........:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,not yet deaf but a little crazy nontheless,from along
the shores of the St.Lawrence........
> I like working with steel but it's noisy and you have to have niceneighbors if you do it more than once every couple years! LOL
Great point Jeff and one worth seriously exploring by anyone
contemplating a steel boat.My boat yard neighbour,who is building a
Roberts 40, regularly makes so much noise, either hammering or
grinding his welds, that I can hardly hear myself think(not that
there is all that much going on up in my attic)but it is I who must
wear ear plugs! Too bad there was not a way to build it so that it
could be tuned,like a steel drum,all fired up for some Calypso
music :-)Fortunately,he mostly works on Fridays and Saturdays but he
tells me he has a few weeks vacation coming up in the middle of
August...aaaaiiiieeeeeee!!!!!!!
About the only way a person could pull off this sort of ear-drum
shattering racket in their"backyard" would be if they lived in an
area zoned for industrial...heavy industry...manufacturing. I cannot
imagine a regular neighbourhood ever putting up with it for very
long.At least not as long as it takes a part-timer to build a
boat..........:-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,not yet deaf but a little crazy nontheless,from along
the shores of the St.Lawrence........
Out here on Montauk, for a boat the 30 foot range, you should expect to
pay about $300/foot/season (May-October). Longer boats are presumed to
need wider slips, and pay more per foot.
-David
pay about $300/foot/season (May-October). Longer boats are presumed to
need wider slips, and pay more per foot.
-David
On Monday, August 2, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Ken wrote:
>
> How much are you talking for the berth exactly?
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ryan [mailto:david@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 8:08 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>
>
> On Monday, August 2, 2004, at 10:25 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
>> Indeed, one lesson
>> I have learned with my Micro Navigator project it that
>> the hull construction is only 1/4 of the total work and
>> 1/6 the $$$ of the entire project.
>
> George Beuhler harps on this quite a bit in his "Backyard Boat
> Building", imploring the reader to think LONGER to get the most value
> out of their build. Of course if you pay by the foot for your berth,
> this may be an unrealized economy. Out here on the East End of Long
> Island, the cost of a seasonal berth for a 30' Beuhler-style boat could
> exceed construction cost in only two or three years.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hbum76/
> M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/
> D=groups/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1091545681/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/
> SIG=13
> 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/
> referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as
> p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002%20>
>
>
> <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/
> alternate_320x250_06150
> 4.jpg>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/
> D=group
> s/S=:HM/A=2196952/rand=608495294>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
It seems to me that trailerable is the way to go for folks thinking of
living aboard as the boat on a trailer can also function as a travel
trailer thereby expanding the number of places to berth.
How much are you talking for the berth exactly?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ryan [mailto:david@...]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 8:08 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
living aboard as the boat on a trailer can also function as a travel
trailer thereby expanding the number of places to berth.
How much are you talking for the berth exactly?
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: David Ryan [mailto:david@...]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 8:08 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
On Monday, August 2, 2004, at 10:25 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
> Indeed, one lesson
> I have learned with my Micro Navigator project it that
> the hull construction is only 1/4 of the total work and
> 1/6 the $$$ of the entire project.
George Beuhler harps on this quite a bit in his "Backyard Boat
Building", imploring the reader to think LONGER to get the most value
out of their build. Of course if you pay by the foot for your berth,
this may be an unrealized economy. Out here on the East End of Long
Island, the cost of a seasonal berth for a 30' Beuhler-style boat could
exceed construction cost in only two or three years.
YIBB,
David
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129hbum76/M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/
D=groups/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1091545681/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13
04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as
p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002%20>
<http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_06150
4.jpg>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/D=group
s/S=:HM/A=2196952/rand=608495294>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Monday, August 2, 2004, at 10:25 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
Building", imploring the reader to think LONGER to get the most value
out of their build. Of course if you pay by the foot for your berth,
this may be an unrealized economy. Out here on the East End of Long
Island, the cost of a seasonal berth for a 30' Beuhler-style boat could
exceed construction cost in only two or three years.
YIBB,
David
> Indeed, one lessonGeorge Beuhler harps on this quite a bit in his "Backyard Boat
> I have learned with my Micro Navigator project it that
> the hull construction is only 1/4 of the total work and
> 1/6 the $$$ of the entire project.
Building", imploring the reader to think LONGER to get the most value
out of their build. Of course if you pay by the foot for your berth,
this may be an unrealized economy. Out here on the East End of Long
Island, the cost of a seasonal berth for a 30' Beuhler-style boat could
exceed construction cost in only two or three years.
YIBB,
David
> Perhaps Bolger will read this thread and get some ideas.He has already...
http://hallman.org/bolger/487/487.gif
... and has not found an ideal solution
to the thermal radiation problem of steel. Steel
hulls need lamination with foam insulation on the
top, bottom, sides *and* both sides of the interior
bulkheads.
That tedious work will negate to some degree the
ease of working with steel plate. Indeed, one lesson
I have learned with my Micro Navigator project it that
the hull construction is only 1/4 of the total work and
1/6 the $$$ of the entire project.
Still, laminating with styrofoam wouldn't be that bad and...
...I would love to own a Weston Martyr #487,
if for nothing else, to try out the dipping lug rig with
bow and stern steering sails.
I haven't used one, but all reports are that the MIG units with flux cored
wire or inert gas are as great as you say.
There is one caveat though. The homebuilt aircraft people found that the
localized nature of the heating left severe stresses, and that, in turn led
to cracks if you were dealing with the higher grades of steel. 4130 in
particular was a problem for the T-18s in their landing gear cluster weld.
The cure of course is to get out the oxy-acetylene rig and heat the whole
area up with a big bushy flame after the initial welds were complete. Then
you have to beat the structure back into alignment, but it won't crack later
and cause intense embarrassment.
Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
wire or inert gas are as great as you say.
There is one caveat though. The homebuilt aircraft people found that the
localized nature of the heating left severe stresses, and that, in turn led
to cracks if you were dealing with the higher grades of steel. 4130 in
particular was a problem for the T-18s in their landing gear cluster weld.
The cure of course is to get out the oxy-acetylene rig and heat the whole
area up with a big bushy flame after the initial welds were complete. Then
you have to beat the structure back into alignment, but it won't crack later
and cause intense embarrassment.
Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
>
> You must be correct on this one. I just looked at the little wire
> feed units. These are relatively cheap and appear easy to use.
> This could incite a new wave of designs for home builders, epoxy
> coated steel hulled boats. Imagine the possibilities. However, I
> think I will wait for someone else to build an AS29 out of steel
> first. Perhaps Bolger will read this thread and get some ideas.
> With the deterioration of the quality of plywood, and the increase
> in price of all supplies this could be the route to go.
Actually you can get wire feed welders that run on 110 that would weld up most steel for small boat trailers. Up to about 1/8 inch thick in most cases. If you use box steel you can get by with thinner walled material. I also own one of the cheap wire feeds for thin metal and with some practice you can do a adequate job.
These little welders can be had much cheaper than a full oxy-acetylene rig and work with flux filled wire which makes it easy to cart around to the backyard if necessary.
Jeff
These little welders can be had much cheaper than a full oxy-acetylene rig and work with flux filled wire which makes it easy to cart around to the backyard if necessary.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis E. Gordon
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
I am not a welder, but my dad was a genius at it, and I have been
around welding a lot. I think that Juan is correct in that a wire feed
welder is better for this application. Maybe I missed it, but no one
has mentioned the biggest objection to ox/acyl welding: the heat
required will buckle the panels. You want to tack weld to keep the
heat down and then fill in between the tacks (with a stick welder, say
an inch at a time).
If you must stick weld, DC is much easier to use than a cheap AC "buzz
box". The gas and diesel powered generator/welders have selectable AC/DC.
Just MHO,
Lewis
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" <robert_gainer@h...> wrote:
> David,
> I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I
understand that
> you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why
not wire
> an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook
undisturbed.
> Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
> >From: "dnjost" <djost@m...>
> >Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
> >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:01:51 -0000
> >
> >Juan,
> >My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
> >250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
> >Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
> >and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
> >
> >With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
> >it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
> >easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
> >the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
> >it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
> >build a trailer for my Micro.
> >
> >Happy Building
> >David Jost
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In
> >Spain you
> > > can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350
> >â?¬. (
> > > 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in
> >steel
> > > tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
> > >
> > > Juan.
> >
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do a lot of welding in my garage especially building boat trailers and stick welding is a lot faster than gas welding and cheaper. I was luck and had access to 220v in my garage. But, wiring in an outlet might just cost more than some trailers.
I like working with steel but it's noisy and you have to have nice neighbors if you do it more than once every couple years! LOL
Jeff
I like working with steel but it's noisy and you have to have nice neighbors if you do it more than once every couple years! LOL
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Gainer
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
David,
I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I understand that
you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why not wire
an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook undisturbed.
Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
Robert Gainer
>From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:01:51 -0000
>
>Juan,
>My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
>250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
>Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
>and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
>
>With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
>it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
>easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
>the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
>it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
>build a trailer for my Micro.
>
>Happy Building
>David Jost
>
>
>
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In
>Spain you
> > can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350
>â,¬. (
> > 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in
>steel
> > tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
> >
> > Juan.
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> You must be correct on this one. I just looked at the little wireThere are threads on welding over at the Origamiboats group from
> feed units. These are relatively cheap and appear easy to use.
time to time. Many opinions. Many comments from guys in the middle
of steel boat construction.
Peter
David -
You must be correct on this one. I just looked at the little wire
feed units. These are relatively cheap and appear easy to use.
This could incite a new wave of designs for home builders, epoxy
coated steel hulled boats. Imagine the possibilities. However, I
think I will wait for someone else to build an AS29 out of steel
first. Perhaps Bolger will read this thread and get some ideas.
With the deterioration of the quality of plywood, and the increase
in price of all supplies this could be the route to go.
David Jost
You must be correct on this one. I just looked at the little wire
feed units. These are relatively cheap and appear easy to use.
This could incite a new wave of designs for home builders, epoxy
coated steel hulled boats. Imagine the possibilities. However, I
think I will wait for someone else to build an AS29 out of steel
first. Perhaps Bolger will read this thread and get some ideas.
With the deterioration of the quality of plywood, and the increase
in price of all supplies this could be the route to go.
David Jost
Gentlemen,
May I offer a word on the subject? Gas and stick welding are old standbys,
but I suspect you haven't had the experience of working with a wire-fed
welding rig. You won't go back.... Using an inexpensive setup, even an
inexperienced welder can turn out good full-penetration welds in no time at
all. You don't have to stop to change sticks, which makes a surprising
difference in the speed and quality of the weld. It's also much easier to
avoid the sort of heat buildup that can lead to plate distortion. IMHO, a
wire-fed welder is the equivalent of a pneumatic nailer or stapler in
construction: fast, easy and more efficient.
If you want to be convinced, go find an old-time welder and ask them about
these rigs. If they're like many I know, they'll start waving their hands
and wailing about how any young kid can just pick one up and start welding,
rather than the long and painful learning curve THEY went through...... ;-)
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 8:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
David,
I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I understand that
you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why not wire
an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook undisturbed.
Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
Robert Gainer
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
May I offer a word on the subject? Gas and stick welding are old standbys,
but I suspect you haven't had the experience of working with a wire-fed
welding rig. You won't go back.... Using an inexpensive setup, even an
inexperienced welder can turn out good full-penetration welds in no time at
all. You don't have to stop to change sticks, which makes a surprising
difference in the speed and quality of the weld. It's also much easier to
avoid the sort of heat buildup that can lead to plate distortion. IMHO, a
wire-fed welder is the equivalent of a pneumatic nailer or stapler in
construction: fast, easy and more efficient.
If you want to be convinced, go find an old-time welder and ask them about
these rigs. If they're like many I know, they'll start waving their hands
and wailing about how any young kid can just pick one up and start welding,
rather than the long and painful learning curve THEY went through...... ;-)
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 8:21 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
David,
I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I understand that
you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why not wire
an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook undisturbed.
Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
Robert Gainer
>From: "dnjost" <djost@...>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:01:51 -0000
>
>Juan,
>My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
>250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
>Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen and
>the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
>
>With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep it
>far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also easier
>(my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through the metal
>the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else, it takes a
>little practice. This was when I thought I was going to build a
>trailer for my Micro.
>
>Happy Building
>David Jost
>
>
>
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In
>Spain you
> > can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350
>â¬. (
> > 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in
>steel
> > tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
> >
> > Juan.
>
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Thank Lewis,
Next time, I will try that. I wondered what those settings were
for. It just means getting a generator out to the side yard. With
hurricane season coming up, it gives me an excuse to buy one.
David Jost
Hmmm, what should I break to get an excuse to fix with the welder?
Next time, I will try that. I wondered what those settings were
for. It just means getting a generator out to the side yard. With
hurricane season coming up, it gives me an excuse to buy one.
David Jost
Hmmm, what should I break to get an excuse to fix with the welder?
>AC "buzz
> If you must stick weld, DC is much easier to use than a cheap
> box". The gas and diesel powered generator/welders have selectableAC/DC.
><robert_gainer@h...> wrote:
> Just MHO,
>
> Lewis
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer"
> > David,Why
> > I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I
> understand that
> > you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas.
> not wire
> > an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook
> undisturbed.
> > Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
> > Robert Gainer
> >
> >
> >
I am not a welder, but my dad was a genius at it, and I have been
around welding a lot. I think that Juan is correct in that a wire feed
welder is better for this application. Maybe I missed it, but no one
has mentioned the biggest objection to ox/acyl welding: the heat
required will buckle the panels. You want to tack weld to keep the
heat down and then fill in between the tacks (with a stick welder, say
an inch at a time).
If you must stick weld, DC is much easier to use than a cheap AC "buzz
box". The gas and diesel powered generator/welders have selectable AC/DC.
Just MHO,
Lewis
around welding a lot. I think that Juan is correct in that a wire feed
welder is better for this application. Maybe I missed it, but no one
has mentioned the biggest objection to ox/acyl welding: the heat
required will buckle the panels. You want to tack weld to keep the
heat down and then fill in between the tacks (with a stick welder, say
an inch at a time).
If you must stick weld, DC is much easier to use than a cheap AC "buzz
box". The gas and diesel powered generator/welders have selectable AC/DC.
Just MHO,
Lewis
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" <robert_gainer@h...> wrote:
> David,
> I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I
understand that
> you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why
not wire
> an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook
undisturbed.
> Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
> >From: "dnjost" <djost@m...>
> >Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
> >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:01:51 -0000
> >
> >Juan,
> >My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
> >250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
> >Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
> >and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
> >
> >With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
> >it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
> >easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
> >the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
> >it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
> >build a trailer for my Micro.
> >
> >Happy Building
> >David Jost
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > > for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In
> >Spain you
> > > can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350
> >â?¬. (
> > > 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in
> >steel
> > > tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
> > >
> > > Juan.
> >
David,
I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I understand that
you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why not wire
an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook undisturbed.
Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
Robert Gainer
I am about as far as you can be from an expert welder, but I understand that
you can lay a lot more weld with a stick then you can with gas. Why not wire
an outlet in the shop from the main box and let the wife cook undisturbed.
Or you may want to get a small gas powered miller.
Robert Gainer
>From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:01:51 -0000
>
>Juan,
>My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
>250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
>Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
>and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
>
>With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
>it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
>easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
>the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
>it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
>build a trailer for my Micro.
>
>Happy Building
>David Jost
>
>
>
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > for plate welding you��d be better off with a wire welder. In
>Spain you
> > can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350
>���. (
> > 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in
>steel
> > tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
> >
> > Juan.
>
Juan,
My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
build a trailer for my Micro.
Happy Building
David Jost
My arc welder is a traditional buzz box that must be connected to a
250V outlet. The only one I have is the one my stove plugs in to.
Mrs. J. does not care for the 250V wire coming through the kitchen
and the stove pulled out for the sake of boat building.
With and oxy-acetelyne outfit, you can roll it to the work and keep
it far away from the main flow of traffic in the yard. It is also
easier (my opinion) to control the weld bead. I blew a hole through
the metal the first time I tried the buzz box. Like anything else,
it takes a little practice. This was when I thought I was going to
build a trailer for my Micro.
Happy Building
David Jost
>Spain you
> Why?
>
> for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In
> can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350â¬. (
> 375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment insteel
> tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
>
> Juan.
... He makes a point, the cost of the equipment for
welding is easily offset in that it is relatively easy to sell to
the next potential welder.
I have successfully arc welded a few items, but would rather go with
an acetylene torch outfit for a job as large as a 30 foot boat!
Why?
for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In Spain you
can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350 €. (
375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in steel
tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
Juan.
welding is easily offset in that it is relatively easy to sell to
the next potential welder.
I have successfully arc welded a few items, but would rather go with
an acetylene torch outfit for a job as large as a 30 foot boat!
Why?
for plate welding you´d be better off with a wire welder. In Spain you
can buy them ( without the gas bottle) starting at arround 350 €. (
375$?) Considering it would be the majority of the investment in steel
tools, for a 30 footer, I think it is not the major issue.
Juan.
There are plenty of metal Bolger designs. One I was looking at again
the other day is Currach, an open boat with a vee-bottomed semi-
planing 24' x 7'7" hull made from 1/8" steel plate.
In the same book (30-odd boats) there is Lion's Paw, a 39' sailing
sharpie leeboard schooner with a 3/8" steel plate bottom (weighing
2470 lb) and (1/8" I guess) steel topsides. It was welded together
upright from complete panels made up flat, instant boat style, by
someone who, according to Bolger, was neither boatbuilder nor welder -
- although I reckon he'd have been entitled to call himself both by
the time he'd finished.
Another steel design with a simple shape is Solution 48, that long
and 13' wide, with a 1/2" vee-bottom. Hull assembly took only 282 man
hours. (Should I say person hours?)
Something the size and weight of AS29 could perhaps be built in
aluminium plate. There a companies in Australia, and no doubt
elsewhere, that will cut to shape all the panels needed to build a
plate aluminium boat. They say the rest is easy these days, with
modern aluminium welding techniques, materials and equipment. I'd
guess an aluminium hull, being thicker than the equivalent made of
steel, would be almost as resistant as steel to being punctured by,
say, the corner of a shipping container.
Howard
the other day is Currach, an open boat with a vee-bottomed semi-
planing 24' x 7'7" hull made from 1/8" steel plate.
In the same book (30-odd boats) there is Lion's Paw, a 39' sailing
sharpie leeboard schooner with a 3/8" steel plate bottom (weighing
2470 lb) and (1/8" I guess) steel topsides. It was welded together
upright from complete panels made up flat, instant boat style, by
someone who, according to Bolger, was neither boatbuilder nor welder -
- although I reckon he'd have been entitled to call himself both by
the time he'd finished.
Another steel design with a simple shape is Solution 48, that long
and 13' wide, with a 1/2" vee-bottom. Hull assembly took only 282 man
hours. (Should I say person hours?)
Something the size and weight of AS29 could perhaps be built in
aluminium plate. There a companies in Australia, and no doubt
elsewhere, that will cut to shape all the panels needed to build a
plate aluminium boat. They say the rest is easy these days, with
modern aluminium welding techniques, materials and equipment. I'd
guess an aluminium hull, being thicker than the equivalent made of
steel, would be almost as resistant as steel to being punctured by,
say, the corner of a shipping container.
Howard
"But I had in mind that the simple frameless shape required could be
subcontracted out. The plates could be made stitch-and-glue style
(cut to shape and welded together) out of relatively thick metal
(1/4"?) without the high level of skill required to build a complete
round-bottomed, or even multi-chined, hull out of 1/8" plate."
I've been thinking to build an Illinois this way. IMO a company that
builds steel tanks for for potable water or the oil industry could
quickly and cheaply build a typical Bolger sharpie hull, IE an AS29
up through the 100' Sir Joseph Banks. I would have such a hull built
up to the gunwhales, and trucked to the site where it would be fitted
with wooden decks, and an insulated/wooden interior. I see the
advantage being not necessarily in cost or even time to build, but
long term durability and safety of the hull. A long distance
cruiser, is likely to take impact from debris, especially since it is
more likely to be on the move at night. I'd rather take on such
impact w' steel.
In BWAOM, the Sir Joseph Banks essay, Bolger describes some details
of building a big sharpie in steel. His arguments for steel in
construction of that big sharpie make great sense. Of course, Bolger
ALWAYS makes sense. Anyway, I can see his thoughts "scaling down"
even to the 30' sailing boats.
subcontracted out. The plates could be made stitch-and-glue style
(cut to shape and welded together) out of relatively thick metal
(1/4"?) without the high level of skill required to build a complete
round-bottomed, or even multi-chined, hull out of 1/8" plate."
I've been thinking to build an Illinois this way. IMO a company that
builds steel tanks for for potable water or the oil industry could
quickly and cheaply build a typical Bolger sharpie hull, IE an AS29
up through the 100' Sir Joseph Banks. I would have such a hull built
up to the gunwhales, and trucked to the site where it would be fitted
with wooden decks, and an insulated/wooden interior. I see the
advantage being not necessarily in cost or even time to build, but
long term durability and safety of the hull. A long distance
cruiser, is likely to take impact from debris, especially since it is
more likely to be on the move at night. I'd rather take on such
impact w' steel.
In BWAOM, the Sir Joseph Banks essay, Bolger describes some details
of building a big sharpie in steel. His arguments for steel in
construction of that big sharpie make great sense. Of course, Bolger
ALWAYS makes sense. Anyway, I can see his thoughts "scaling down"
even to the 30' sailing boats.
In David Gerr's book that lists designs that can be built for under
$12K, he has a nice chapter on steel boatbuilding for amateur
construction. He makes a point, the cost of the equipment for
welding is easily offset in that it is relatively easy to sell to
the next potential welder.
I have successfully arc welded a few items, but would rather go with
an acetylene torch outfit for a job as large as a 30 foot boat!
happy building,
David Jost
"giving birth to a Tortoise as we speak."
$12K, he has a nice chapter on steel boatbuilding for amateur
construction. He makes a point, the cost of the equipment for
welding is easily offset in that it is relatively easy to sell to
the next potential welder.
I have successfully arc welded a few items, but would rather go with
an acetylene torch outfit for a job as large as a 30 foot boat!
happy building,
David Jost
"giving birth to a Tortoise as we speak."
Where I come from, the great majority of commercially built small
boats (say 10 to 15 ft) are made of aluminium. Most of them are
pretty light, certainly lighter than fibreglass. AFIK they are built
like car bodies; i.e. pressed out of of sheet metal. No doubt you
could use the same technique to make steel boats that would be
reasonably light, but how long would they last? (Larger aluminium
hulls are usu. made from thicker plate using a technique similar to
the way steel boats are built.)
When suggesting a kind of steel/plywood composite construction, I
realized there would be very few amateurs (or professionals for that
matter) with both woodworking and metalworking skills. But I had in
mind that the simple frameless shape required could be subcontracted
out. The plates could be made stitch-and-glue style (cut to shape and
welded together) out of relatively thick metal (1/4"?) without the
high level of skill required to build a complete round-bottomed, or
even multi-chined, hull out of 1/8" plate. This lower hull would make
a handy jig for assembling the plywood hull. It would also be much
easier to turn over than a complete steel or ply hull.
David, I hadn't thought of differing coefficients of thermal
expansion. Over a length of 10 metres, for a temperature increase of
50 deg. C (hard to imagine a temerature change greater than that
where I live), steel would expand by about 4mm at each end (or 8mm in
the middle,if you like), assuming that plywood doesn't expand or
contract at all when it is heated. I'm not sure whether bedding
compound, or the plywood, could accommodate that degree of movement;
perhaps not.
Howard
boats (say 10 to 15 ft) are made of aluminium. Most of them are
pretty light, certainly lighter than fibreglass. AFIK they are built
like car bodies; i.e. pressed out of of sheet metal. No doubt you
could use the same technique to make steel boats that would be
reasonably light, but how long would they last? (Larger aluminium
hulls are usu. made from thicker plate using a technique similar to
the way steel boats are built.)
When suggesting a kind of steel/plywood composite construction, I
realized there would be very few amateurs (or professionals for that
matter) with both woodworking and metalworking skills. But I had in
mind that the simple frameless shape required could be subcontracted
out. The plates could be made stitch-and-glue style (cut to shape and
welded together) out of relatively thick metal (1/4"?) without the
high level of skill required to build a complete round-bottomed, or
even multi-chined, hull out of 1/8" plate. This lower hull would make
a handy jig for assembling the plywood hull. It would also be much
easier to turn over than a complete steel or ply hull.
David, I hadn't thought of differing coefficients of thermal
expansion. Over a length of 10 metres, for a temperature increase of
50 deg. C (hard to imagine a temerature change greater than that
where I live), steel would expand by about 4mm at each end (or 8mm in
the middle,if you like), assuming that plywood doesn't expand or
contract at all when it is heated. I'm not sure whether bedding
compound, or the plywood, could accommodate that degree of movement;
perhaps not.
Howard
Robert,
By and large I agree; 30 feet would be a good rule of thumb. You can use
steel (or aluminium alloy) under 30 feet, but it takes real skill in design
and both skill and discipline in construction. Distortion is more a
function of building technique, and need not happen with care. As far as
corrosion goes, I must disagree; steel can be protected in many ways with
modern coatings, and wastage is no longer inevitable. I would, however,
plan some extra plate thicknesses where the coatings might face abrasion,
such as the forefoot, bottom and leading edge of the keel, rubrails, etc.
Regards,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer@...]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 6:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
David,
I think that steel is at a disadvantage in sizes below 30 feet because the
hull is made thicker then the requirements of just strength. The shell is
increased in thickness to allow for welding without distortion. The other
reason for greater thickness is to allow for wastage from corrosion. Because
of this steel doesn't have any weight advantage until the boat is larger
then 30 feet and it begins to shine when the craft is larger then 40 feet.
This is of course the type of statement that will rile a lot of people who
are either for or against steel boats.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
By and large I agree; 30 feet would be a good rule of thumb. You can use
steel (or aluminium alloy) under 30 feet, but it takes real skill in design
and both skill and discipline in construction. Distortion is more a
function of building technique, and need not happen with care. As far as
corrosion goes, I must disagree; steel can be protected in many ways with
modern coatings, and wastage is no longer inevitable. I would, however,
plan some extra plate thicknesses where the coatings might face abrasion,
such as the forefoot, bottom and leading edge of the keel, rubrails, etc.
Regards,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gainer [mailto:robert_gainer@...]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 6:37 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
David,
I think that steel is at a disadvantage in sizes below 30 feet because the
hull is made thicker then the requirements of just strength. The shell is
increased in thickness to allow for welding without distortion. The other
reason for greater thickness is to allow for wastage from corrosion. Because
of this steel doesn't have any weight advantage until the boat is larger
then 30 feet and it begins to shine when the craft is larger then 40 feet.
This is of course the type of statement that will rile a lot of people who
are either for or against steel boats.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
> Bolger did once mention his admiration for folks who trulyWolf Trap 30, and other places.
> understand metal and can work it like wood....just can't remember
> whether it was in the chapter on Lions Paw or another design.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" <robert_gainer@h...>
wrote:
generally across the board.
Now all we have to do is sit back and wait for someone to post the
inevitable link to some fellows web page showing how he did a
perfect copy of a Herreshoff 12 1/2......outta steel :-)
Bolger did once mention his admiration for folks who truly
understand metal and can work it like wood....just can't remember
whether it was in the chapter on Lions Paw or another design.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, who sometimes wishes he could work with steel the way
some work with wood..
wrote:
> This is of course the type of statement that will rile a lot ofpeople who
> are either for or against steel boats.Not at all Robert!It just happens to make perfect sense and applies
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
generally across the board.
Now all we have to do is sit back and wait for someone to post the
inevitable link to some fellows web page showing how he did a
perfect copy of a Herreshoff 12 1/2......outta steel :-)
Bolger did once mention his admiration for folks who truly
understand metal and can work it like wood....just can't remember
whether it was in the chapter on Lions Paw or another design.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, who sometimes wishes he could work with steel the way
some work with wood..
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
In addition to the above,
> such a composite scheme involving materials with radically
different
> expansion coefficients would almost certainly lead to difficulties
in
> maintaining watertight integrity (sorry about the jargon, but you
get the
> idea).
It has been argued by some designers who have "toyed" with this
sort of composite constuction design,that with todays flexible poly-
adhesives,concerns of the joint or seam integrity can be laid to
rest and this despite the different expansion rates.
An alluring notion,for sure! However, and this is just my own take
on the whole idea, such a design(s) are not really all that suitable
for "amateur" construction since they require proficiency with two
very different skills.
To wit; the entire backbone and hull bottom must be very
accurately welded up together since it will form the supporting base
for the wood upper hull and super-structure.It is easy to plane off
a few shavings of wood to get things fair and aligned,but a whole
different story for the steel which has been known to play murder
with planes :-) Any little error in the steel lower sections will be
telegraphed to the wood upper works and a whole series of
cascading"adjustments" needed to the wood bits and pieces just to
get the entire hull looking half decent.
The yard where I am presently putting Windermere together used to
have a couple of dozen amateur steel boat hulls anchored around the
property in various stages of completion and,to a boat,ranging in
appearance from the fabled"hungry horse" look all the way to
the "Gerry's Kids" look........Not a pretty sight,for sure,nor all
that encouraging for anyone contemplating steel boat building.
Coincidently,my boat-yard neighbour is assembling a Roberts Spray
40 and doing a perfectly true and fair job of it and this is his
first attempt at boat building! What's his secret? 38 years working
as a tinsmith,sheet metal man and pro welder..........he understands
and works steel the way most of us understand toilette paper.He can
do it with his hands behind his back and eyes closed.
If you want a steel boat,then practice alot and build one.If it
is wood or fiberglass,then the same applies....practice.
Oh well,this is way too long when all I wanted to say was I
agreed with David :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.from along the wet,muggy and dark shores of the
St.Lawrence.............
> I'm still not comfortable with the manyThe Bolger steel plate ballast method uses bolts. He used interior
> methods I've since heard suggested for attaching those plates.
> These days, I'd even wonder about shaping the plates
> carefully to the bottom curve, and
> applying them with 5200 as their sole means of support...
steel plates in a couple boats, perhaps Black Skimmer....
There was a round-the-world racing boat named Coyote. If I understood
what I read correctly, some important connection in the the keel was
made only with adhesive. Epoxy perhaps. The boat had a gounding in
the Chesapeake which was not considered too serious, but she lost her
keel on a transatlantic run and was found floating upside down. I'd
stick with bolts, myself. (If anyone know for sure if this is true,
I'd welcome confirmation.)
Peter
David,
I think that steel is at a disadvantage in sizes below 30 feet because the
hull is made thicker then the requirements of just strength. The shell is
increased in thickness to allow for welding without distortion. The other
reason for greater thickness is to allow for wastage from corrosion. Because
of this steel doesn�t have any weight advantage until the boat is larger
then 30 feet and it begins to shine when the craft is larger then 40 feet.
This is of course the type of statement that will rile a lot of people who
are either for or against steel boats.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
I think that steel is at a disadvantage in sizes below 30 feet because the
hull is made thicker then the requirements of just strength. The shell is
increased in thickness to allow for welding without distortion. The other
reason for greater thickness is to allow for wastage from corrosion. Because
of this steel doesn�t have any weight advantage until the boat is larger
then 30 feet and it begins to shine when the craft is larger then 40 feet.
This is of course the type of statement that will rile a lot of people who
are either for or against steel boats.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: "David Romasco" <dromasco@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:40:16 -0400
>
>Because a properly designed steel vessel in that size would in fact be
>lighter when the entire hull and deck were steel; steel is a lighter
>building material than plywood (above dinghy sizes) when properly designed
>and fabricated. The reason you don't see it in more common use is simply
>because of the ease of fiberglass for mass production, and the simple
>technology of plywood for amateur construction. In addition to the above,
>such a composite scheme involving materials with radically different
>expansion coefficients would almost certainly lead to difficulties in
>maintaining watertight integrity (sorry about the jargon, but you get the
>idea).
>
>I salute those who attempt the Bolger steel shoe. I spent many an hour
>over
>the plans for Bolger's Blackgauntlet II when they were released around
>forty
>years ago (!), and to this day I'm still not comfortable with the many
>methods I've since heard suggested for attaching those plates. These days,
>I'd even wonder about shaping the plates carefully to the bottom curve, and
>applying them with 5200 as their sole means of support; those of you who
>have tangled with undoing that singular substance will know what I mean.
>
>David Romasco
>
> _____
>
>From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
>Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 5:23 PM
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
>
>
>I've often thought that the best way to design and build a hull like
>AS29 or, say, Blackgauntlet, would be to build it out of steel up to
>about the waterline and build the topsides and superstructure out of
>plywood. The ply would overlap the steel and connected to it with ss
>bolts through the ply and steel and a wooden stringer on the outside.
>
>This would be relatively easy to construct. The weight and strength
>would be where it is most needed. Has this ever been done?
>
>Howard
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Because a properly designed steel vessel in that size would in fact be
lighter when the entire hull and deck were steel; steel is a lighter
building material than plywood (above dinghy sizes) when properly designed
and fabricated. The reason you don't see it in more common use is simply
because of the ease of fiberglass for mass production, and the simple
technology of plywood for amateur construction. In addition to the above,
such a composite scheme involving materials with radically different
expansion coefficients would almost certainly lead to difficulties in
maintaining watertight integrity (sorry about the jargon, but you get the
idea).
I salute those who attempt the Bolger steel shoe. I spent many an hour over
the plans for Bolger's Blackgauntlet II when they were released around forty
years ago (!), and to this day I'm still not comfortable with the many
methods I've since heard suggested for attaching those plates. These days,
I'd even wonder about shaping the plates carefully to the bottom curve, and
applying them with 5200 as their sole means of support; those of you who
have tangled with undoing that singular substance will know what I mean.
David Romasco
_____
From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 5:23 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
I've often thought that the best way to design and build a hull like
AS29 or, say, Blackgauntlet, would be to build it out of steel up to
about the waterline and build the topsides and superstructure out of
plywood. The ply would overlap the steel and connected to it with ss
bolts through the ply and steel and a wooden stringer on the outside.
This would be relatively easy to construct. The weight and strength
would be where it is most needed. Has this ever been done?
Howard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lighter when the entire hull and deck were steel; steel is a lighter
building material than plywood (above dinghy sizes) when properly designed
and fabricated. The reason you don't see it in more common use is simply
because of the ease of fiberglass for mass production, and the simple
technology of plywood for amateur construction. In addition to the above,
such a composite scheme involving materials with radically different
expansion coefficients would almost certainly lead to difficulties in
maintaining watertight integrity (sorry about the jargon, but you get the
idea).
I salute those who attempt the Bolger steel shoe. I spent many an hour over
the plans for Bolger's Blackgauntlet II when they were released around forty
years ago (!), and to this day I'm still not comfortable with the many
methods I've since heard suggested for attaching those plates. These days,
I'd even wonder about shaping the plates carefully to the bottom curve, and
applying them with 5200 as their sole means of support; those of you who
have tangled with undoing that singular substance will know what I mean.
David Romasco
_____
From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 5:23 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29's current form
I've often thought that the best way to design and build a hull like
AS29 or, say, Blackgauntlet, would be to build it out of steel up to
about the waterline and build the topsides and superstructure out of
plywood. The ply would overlap the steel and connected to it with ss
bolts through the ply and steel and a wooden stringer on the outside.
This would be relatively easy to construct. The weight and strength
would be where it is most needed. Has this ever been done?
Howard
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've often thought that the best way to design and build a hull like
AS29 or, say, Blackgauntlet, would be to build it out of steel up to
about the waterline and build the topsides and superstructure out of
plywood. The ply would overlap the steel and connected to it with ss
bolts through the ply and steel and a wooden stringer on the outside.
This would be relatively easy to construct. The weight and strength
would be where it is most needed. Has this ever been done?
Howard
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
AS29 or, say, Blackgauntlet, would be to build it out of steel up to
about the waterline and build the topsides and superstructure out of
plywood. The ply would overlap the steel and connected to it with ss
bolts through the ply and steel and a wooden stringer on the outside.
This would be relatively easy to construct. The weight and strength
would be where it is most needed. Has this ever been done?
Howard
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> > Also how do you attach a steel shoe with out letting
> > water seep into the ply bottom? Dump truck load of
> > 5200 followed by 18 coats of paint?
>
> I think the steel needs to be in 2 foot sections to
> avoid problems with differential thermal expansion.
>
Jaon Stancil wrote:
windows above the galley,
and a small doghouse above the portapotty.
[moved forward] to allow the use of a Tortioise
instead of a Shoebox Punt.
The new raised cabin has a Harken mainsheet
traveller, with the boom raised a foot, the
gooseneck connection of the boom to the
tabernacle is changed to boom jaws on the
mast.
Also, they added larger lexan backrests
to the cockpit area, plus the anti-phlumphing
bow appendage.
the low bridge...from canal riverine cruising...to island hopping
in the Caribbean."
No mention of trips to Europe.
> and wonder the current state of the AS-29.They added a larger doghouse with bigger
windows above the galley,
and a small doghouse above the portapotty.
[moved forward] to allow the use of a Tortioise
instead of a Shoebox Punt.
The new raised cabin has a Harken mainsheet
traveller, with the boom raised a foot, the
gooseneck connection of the boom to the
tabernacle is changed to boom jaws on the
mast.
Also, they added larger lexan backrests
to the cockpit area, plus the anti-phlumphing
bow appendage.
> Where does bolger now stand on the seaworthy factor?"coastal liveaboard episodes back up the bay, the creek, beyond
the low bridge...from canal riverine cruising...to island hopping
in the Caribbean."
No mention of trips to Europe.
> Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:Yes, ouch!
> Man, not lately. The price of steel is about double
.
AS-29 has 2,000 lbs of plate steel about $1,000
at today's prices.
Yonder has 5,000 lbs about $2,500.
Steel is still cheaper than lead, which I think
sells for around $1 a pound.
3M-5200 sells for about $10 per cartridge.
Sorry, I meant to keep the section on the cost of Steel versus 5200!
>I bet the 5200 might cost more than the steel itself.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I googled bolger yonder but can't find any pictures. All i know ishttp://hallman.org/bolger/yonder.gif
> it is an updated romp and appeared in MAIB. Know where any pictures
> are. With a 10' beam it's too big to trailer this side of an 18
> wheeler.
Search the Bolger Yahoo Group, there was a lot of discussion when
the MAIB articles came out a year ago. Both the AS29 and the
Yonder are equivalent 'rental crane' and 'contract trucker' operations
to get to water in my opinion.
At first impression, the curvy hull of Yonder seems much more
work than a sheet plywood AS29, but Yonder is strip planked
on plywood bulkhead frames, without a high drama hull flip or
trying to handle floppy 30 foot pieces of plywood. I imagine that
edge nailed strips, with an air stapler, would go pretty quick.
The inside fit out of the two would be about equal, and that is the
bulk of the work anyway.
>I think the steel needs to be in 2 foot sections toMan, not lately. The price of steel is about double what it was a year ago. I just purchased steel to build my trailer for the Sneakeasy and what should have been about $150.00 was over $300.00. This is the 4th trailer I've built in the last 5 years so I have a basis for past steel prices.
>avoid problems with differential thermal expansion.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>pictures
> I googled bolger yonder but can't find any pictures. All i know is
> it is an updated romp and appeared in MAIB. Know where any
> are. With a 10' beam it's too big to trailer this side of an 18**************************
> wheeler.
>
> Jason
Never mind i found it in the files of bolger 3.
Hard chine or round bilge? Plywood?
Man i got to get to work and stop this world wide waste surfing
Jason
> I too, keep dreaming of an AS29, but then I think that*******************************
> an AS29 could be build for about the same trouble
> as a Yonder, and in the end, a Yonder would be
> worth twice what an AS29 would be worth plus be
> a more seaworthy boat.
I googled bolger yonder but can't find any pictures. All i know is
it is an updated romp and appeared in MAIB. Know where any pictures
are. With a 10' beam it's too big to trailer this side of an 18
wheeler.
Jason
> Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:I think the steel needs to be in 2 foot sections to
> Also how do you attach a steel shoe with out letting
> water seep into the ply bottom? Dump truck load of
> 5200 followed by 18 coats of paint?
avoid problems with differential thermal expansion.
It is through bolted, with over sized holes, [also to accommodate
thermal expansion.]
Yes, lots of 5200 is used for sticking the plate to the
wood, and filling the over sized bolt holes.
The steel is called to be galvanized or 'high tech' painted.
I bet the 5200 might cost more than the steel itself.
I too, keep dreaming of an AS29, but then I think that
an AS29 could be build for about the same trouble
as a Yonder, and in the end, a Yonder would be
worth twice what an AS29 would be worth plus be
a more seaworthy boat.
For some reason i can't stop drooling over the AS-29.
Even though i have no time money or space to build and cruise one.
I know it has undergone some changes over the years since it's
inception and write up in BWAOM......new fore foot & some type of
steel shoe. I've seen what Bolger has OK'ed on the AS-39 Le Cabotan
(spelling?...sorry) and wonder the current state of the AS-29. Where
does bolger now stand on the seaworthy factor?....coastal cruiser or
has it reach the point of offshore stability and sea keeping. There
are quite a few of these monster out there, mostly australia it
seems, but they all stay real close to shore.
Also how do you attach a steel shoe with out letting water seep into
the ply bottom? Dump truck load of 5200 followed by 18 coats of
paint?
Anyone that has built one how "intricate" are they?
Jason
Even though i have no time money or space to build and cruise one.
I know it has undergone some changes over the years since it's
inception and write up in BWAOM......new fore foot & some type of
steel shoe. I've seen what Bolger has OK'ed on the AS-39 Le Cabotan
(spelling?...sorry) and wonder the current state of the AS-29. Where
does bolger now stand on the seaworthy factor?....coastal cruiser or
has it reach the point of offshore stability and sea keeping. There
are quite a few of these monster out there, mostly australia it
seems, but they all stay real close to shore.
Also how do you attach a steel shoe with out letting water seep into
the ply bottom? Dump truck load of 5200 followed by 18 coats of
paint?
Anyone that has built one how "intricate" are they?
Jason