Re: New Design - Wandervogel
Thanks. I was hoping my post would find the owner of the model. You've
done a good job with the photo, to make it look like a full-size boat.
What a pity it's an unfinished design. I'm sure there'd be plenty of
people who'd be interested if it were finished.
Howard
done a good job with the photo, to make it look like a full-size boat.
What a pity it's an unfinished design. I'm sure there'd be plenty of
people who'd be interested if it were finished.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@v...> wrote:
> The model is mine. I commissioned the design after the cartoon 101
in
> 103 Sailing Rigs. The model was made from the preliminary drawing.
> Alas, the full design is in limbo, apparently behind several others
in
> PB&F's queue.
The model is mine. I commissioned the design after the cartoon 101 in
103 Sailing Rigs. The model was made from the preliminary drawing.
Alas, the full design is in limbo, apparently behind several others in
PB&F's queue.
As with the recurring theme here lately, I have a "fill in" project.
Mine is a Birdwatcher. The second coat of paint is going on the hull,
so anticipation for the launch is building.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
103 Sailing Rigs. The model was made from the preliminary drawing.
Alas, the full design is in limbo, apparently behind several others in
PB&F's queue.
As with the recurring theme here lately, I have a "fill in" project.
Mine is a Birdwatcher. The second coat of paint is going on the hull,
so anticipation for the launch is building.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
> I've just realized the photo of the Birdwatcher-type boat that
> appears on the front page of Bolger3 was a model, not a full-size
> boat. See:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/
>
> Anyone have any news on this design -- whether it was finished,
> whether construction was started etc. ?
>
> Howard
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarmanD@c...> wrote:
> > I would like to let the Group in on a new design in the works at
> PB&F,
> > which should come off the board soon. It is an elaboration on the
> > Wandervogel cartoon that was rig number 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. I
> > commissioned it about a year ago. I was looking for a comfortable,
> > trailerable, shoal-draft cruiser. The William D. Jochems design
> was
> > appealing, but ultimately, I decided it was more ambitious than I
> > wanted to build and tow. Wandervogel is a couple feet smaller at
> > 23?-9? x 6?-9? x 8?, or about the size of a Martha Jane.
I've just realized the photo of the Birdwatcher-type boat that
appears on the front page of Bolger3 was a model, not a full-size
boat. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/
Anyone have any news on this design -- whether it was finished,
whether construction was started etc. ?
Howard
appears on the front page of Bolger3 was a model, not a full-size
boat. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/
Anyone have any news on this design -- whether it was finished,
whether construction was started etc. ?
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarmanD@c...> wrote:
> I would like to let the Group in on a new design in the works at
PB&F,
> which should come off the board soon. It is an elaboration on the
> Wandervogel cartoon that was rig number 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. I
> commissioned it about a year ago. I was looking for a comfortable,
> trailerable, shoal-draft cruiser. The William D. Jochems design
was
> appealing, but ultimately, I decided it was more ambitious than I
> wanted to build and tow. Wandervogel is a couple feet smaller at
> 23?-9? x 6?-9? x 8?, or about the size of a Martha Jane.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
boom long enought to later add a jib; actually flying a jib might
help things out, and it might not. In "Beach Cruising and Coastal
Camping" Ida Little said her Bolger-designed Dugog picked up a full
knot in most conditions with the addition of a very small somewhat
silly-looking jib. Certainly it seems to me if you're going to go to
all the trouble to build the balestron boom you might as well put the
jib on it; it will be no extra effort or extra sheets to handle when
tacking, and the jib will balance the main some and actually lower
sheet tension. And it would look cool.
bit odd to me. Overall, though, the whole thing is very jaunty and
capable looking. The twin rudders and central outboard seem to me to
be a very good arrangement.
Kevin
wrote:
> 2) I've never seen the vang arrangement before. Pretty neat, thoughprecedent
> it complicates the the boom construction. Does PB&F cite a
> or claim it as original? Possibly an independent re-invention. It'sIt's a balestron rig without a jib. One might consider making the
> real difficult to be completely novel.
boom long enought to later add a jib; actually flying a jib might
help things out, and it might not. In "Beach Cruising and Coastal
Camping" Ida Little said her Bolger-designed Dugog picked up a full
knot in most conditions with the addition of a very small somewhat
silly-looking jib. Certainly it seems to me if you're going to go to
all the trouble to build the balestron boom you might as well put the
jib on it; it will be no extra effort or extra sheets to handle when
tacking, and the jib will balance the main some and actually lower
sheet tension. And it would look cool.
> 3) The complicated and unusual-looking mizzen tabernacle supportsI agree.
> will look appropriately exotic with the Chinese rig.
> 4) Looks like a great boat.I agree with that too, though the angle of the fore cabin window is a
bit odd to me. Overall, though, the whole thing is very jaunty and
capable looking. The twin rudders and central outboard seem to me to
be a very good arrangement.
Kevin
I looked seriously at the Birdwatcher a year ago, and Birdwatcher II
when the last WoodenBoat came out. I concluded that Birdwatcher was
smaller than my wife and I would want to spend a week or even a
weekend in. Strange, because BW and Wandervogel are within about 3"
of each other in overall length. BW loses a lot of volume being
double-ended. It is also narrower of beam. BW's cabin is somewhat
spoiled by the centerboard case. If you like sitting on the floor
(maybe a wet floor if the CB case spits), go with the BW. The WV will
have proper chair-height seats, both cabin and cockpit.
The cockpit degrades the birdwatcher concept somewhat in that it
compromises righting ability from a knock-down. On the model, at 90
degree knock-down attitude, the front edge of the cockpit rail is just
going under. The buoyancy of the house prevents much water getting in
the cockpit. But really, how often will it get knocked 90 degrees?
Obviously, WV gives up lots to BW in simplicity of the sailing rig.
Once the rig is up, the Chinese gaffer should be easier to reef, if it
lives up to the advanced billing.
WV will be heavier, more expensive, and more complicated to build.
when the last WoodenBoat came out. I concluded that Birdwatcher was
smaller than my wife and I would want to spend a week or even a
weekend in. Strange, because BW and Wandervogel are within about 3"
of each other in overall length. BW loses a lot of volume being
double-ended. It is also narrower of beam. BW's cabin is somewhat
spoiled by the centerboard case. If you like sitting on the floor
(maybe a wet floor if the CB case spits), go with the BW. The WV will
have proper chair-height seats, both cabin and cockpit.
The cockpit degrades the birdwatcher concept somewhat in that it
compromises righting ability from a knock-down. On the model, at 90
degree knock-down attitude, the front edge of the cockpit rail is just
going under. The buoyancy of the house prevents much water getting in
the cockpit. But really, how often will it get knocked 90 degrees?
Obviously, WV gives up lots to BW in simplicity of the sailing rig.
Once the rig is up, the Chinese gaffer should be easier to reef, if it
lives up to the advanced billing.
WV will be heavier, more expensive, and more complicated to build.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jennings <rjennings@g...> wrote:
> I really like the idea of a small cockpit in a Birdwatcher II type
> boat. What have you gained and lost with the Wandervogel compared to
> the Birdwatcher II? I ask because I'm close to buying the BW II plans
> but will wait if the Wandervogel has some qualities that are better
> for my needs than the BW II. It sounds like Bolger just keeps
> designing better boats.
>
>
I really like the idea of a small cockpit in a Birdwatcher II type
boat. What have you gained and lost with the Wandervogel compared to
the Birdwatcher II? I ask because I'm close to buying the BW II plans
but will wait if the Wandervogel has some qualities that are better
for my needs than the BW II. It sounds like Bolger just keeps
designing better boats.
boat. What have you gained and lost with the Wandervogel compared to
the Birdwatcher II? I ask because I'm close to buying the BW II plans
but will wait if the Wandervogel has some qualities that are better
for my needs than the BW II. It sounds like Bolger just keeps
designing better boats.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 08:20:35 -0800
Subject: Re: [bolger] New Design - Wandervogel
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
oarmandt <oarmand@...> wrote:
> Wandervogel
> I have built a model from the preliminary drawing.
This is exciting, this design falls right into
the 'sweet spot' for backyard built trailerable
camp cruisers.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger3/lst?&.dir=/Wandervogel
points to the folder with the photos.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
________________________________
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
oarmandt <oarmand@...> wrote:
the 'sweet spot' for backyard built trailerable
camp cruisers.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger3/lst?&.dir=/Wandervogel
points to the folder with the photos.
> WandervogelThis is exciting, this design falls right into
> I have built a model from the preliminary drawing.
the 'sweet spot' for backyard built trailerable
camp cruisers.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger3/lst?&.dir=/Wandervogel
points to the folder with the photos.
Thanks for sharing the news about the new design and the pictures of
the model. A couple of unconnected thoughts:
1) Given the embarassment of the Martha Jane stability issue, I bet
PB&F is more than happy to have the chance to get a replacement
design on the books. MJ's have worked out well for a lot of people,
but the fully revised version (which they are in the position of
having to recommend) is a lot more work than the original. "Doing it
right from the start", i.e. a fresh design, probably gets the
advantages with less cost and effort. This might explain why they
would produce "their" version as well as "your" version.
2) I've never seen the vang arrangement before. Pretty neat, though
it complicates the the boom construction. Does PB&F cite a precedent
or claim it as original? Possibly an independent re-invention. It's
real difficult to be completely novel.
3) The complicated and unusual-looking mizzen tabernacle supports
will look appropriately exotic with the Chinese rig. I think it would
look odd with the cleaner sharpie rig, a la Skillygallee. Bolger is
deep into tabernacles these days, and come seem very complicated and
intrusive. For example, the slightly angled ones on the Jochems. On
the St. Valerie, the boom rests awkwardly (it seems to me) on the
tabernacle rather than the mast.
4) Looks like a great boat.
Peter
the model. A couple of unconnected thoughts:
1) Given the embarassment of the Martha Jane stability issue, I bet
PB&F is more than happy to have the chance to get a replacement
design on the books. MJ's have worked out well for a lot of people,
but the fully revised version (which they are in the position of
having to recommend) is a lot more work than the original. "Doing it
right from the start", i.e. a fresh design, probably gets the
advantages with less cost and effort. This might explain why they
would produce "their" version as well as "your" version.
2) I've never seen the vang arrangement before. Pretty neat, though
it complicates the the boom construction. Does PB&F cite a precedent
or claim it as original? Possibly an independent re-invention. It's
real difficult to be completely novel.
3) The complicated and unusual-looking mizzen tabernacle supports
will look appropriately exotic with the Chinese rig. I think it would
look odd with the cleaner sharpie rig, a la Skillygallee. Bolger is
deep into tabernacles these days, and come seem very complicated and
intrusive. For example, the slightly angled ones on the Jochems. On
the St. Valerie, the boom rests awkwardly (it seems to me) on the
tabernacle rather than the mast.
4) Looks like a great boat.
Peter
Exciting stuff Doug! No doubt it's a Bolger.
And a great model, doll included.
DonB
And a great model, doll included.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarmanD@c...> wrote:
> I would like to let the Group in on a new design in the works at
PB&F,
> which should come off the board soon. It is an elaboration on the
> Wandervogel cartoon that was rig number 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. I
> commissioned it about a year ago. I was looking for a comfortable,
> trailerable, shoal-draft cruiser. The William D. Jochems design
was
> appealing, but ultimately, I decided it was more ambitious than I
> wanted to build and tow. Wandervogel is a couple feet smaller at
> 23?-9? x 6?-9? x 8?, or about the size of a Martha Jane. It has
the
> Birdwatcher style cabin, but like Jochems, has a small cockpit for
> when the weather is too fine to stay inside. The rig is the
Chinese
> Gaff. The cartoon in 103 Rigs was a cat, but it has since evolved
to
> a cat-yawl. Once you have the sheet staff, why not a yawl?
>
> I intend the boat to be water-ballasted. PB&F are pushing the
idea of
> metal plate armoring the bottom instead. I suspect that the final
> plans will include both options. The preliminary drawings had twin
> bilge boards with cases integrated into the settee backs, to
satisfy
> those who are offended by the appearance of leeboards. I have
asked
> for leeboards as I subscribe to the KISS principle and I suspect
that
> the plans will show both options. To answer the demand for relief
> from sharpie hull noises in waves, Wandervogel will have a V-shaped
> bottom forward. It is typical sharpie flat aft.
>
> The rig includes the unique Chinese Gaff vang (a line from the mast
> head to the front end of the boom, which extends a couple feet
forward
> of the mast.) The main area is 295 square feet and the mizzen is
67.
> (Compare 362 square feet available to the 247 on Martha Jane. If
you
> would rather sail than listen to the motor, this design has the
> power.) The mizzen has gaff and battens and is shaped like the
main.
> It is intended to sail with the first reef in the main, unless the
> breeze is very light, as per the CG rig description in 103 Rigs.
> There is a unique solution to the problem of how to fit rudder,
> tiller, outboard and mizzenmast on the transom. There are twin,
> shallow, endplate-type rudders on the outer edges of the transom.
The
> outboard is on centerline. The mizzenmast is also on centerline,
with
> the tabernacle tall enough to hold the butt of the mast above the
> outboard. The tabernacle is an A-frame to allow room to swing the
> centerline tiller, mounted just below the mizzenmast. The folded
> masts will fit within the boat length (if you include rudders in
the
> length.)
>
> The cabin includes two 6?-8? long settees amidships. These are
> intended to convert to one queen-sized berth. There were no other
> cabin details on the preliminary drawing. The write-up talked
about
> two pipe berths that could be temporarily rigged somewhere in the
> cabin, but I was not clear on the details.
>
> I have built a model from the preliminary drawing. I posted
photos on
> Bolger3 in a file named Wandervogel. Having seen the model?s
photos,
> PB&F have said they thought the cabin should extend further
forward.
> The picture with sails up has the lower panel of the main cut off,
to
> represent the first reef, which is 20% of the mains?l area. The
> figure at the helm in the model photos is a ?Skipper? doll, who
would
> be 6?-2? tall at 1.5? = 1? scale.
>
> Doug
I would like to let the Group in on a new design in the works at PB&F,
which should come off the board soon. It is an elaboration on the
Wandervogel cartoon that was rig number 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. I
commissioned it about a year ago. I was looking for a comfortable,
trailerable, shoal-draft cruiser. The William D. Jochems design was
appealing, but ultimately, I decided it was more ambitious than I
wanted to build and tow. Wandervogel is a couple feet smaller at
23?-9? x 6?-9? x 8?, or about the size of a Martha Jane. It has the
Birdwatcher style cabin, but like Jochems, has a small cockpit for
when the weather is too fine to stay inside. The rig is the Chinese
Gaff. The cartoon in 103 Rigs was a cat, but it has since evolved to
a cat-yawl. Once you have the sheet staff, why not a yawl?
I intend the boat to be water-ballasted. PB&F are pushing the idea of
metal plate armoring the bottom instead. I suspect that the final
plans will include both options. The preliminary drawings had twin
bilge boards with cases integrated into the settee backs, to satisfy
those who are offended by the appearance of leeboards. I have asked
for leeboards as I subscribe to the KISS principle and I suspect that
the plans will show both options. To answer the demand for relief
from sharpie hull noises in waves, Wandervogel will have a V-shaped
bottom forward. It is typical sharpie flat aft.
The rig includes the unique Chinese Gaff vang (a line from the mast
head to the front end of the boom, which extends a couple feet forward
of the mast.) The main area is 295 square feet and the mizzen is 67.
(Compare 362 square feet available to the 247 on Martha Jane. If you
would rather sail than listen to the motor, this design has the
power.) The mizzen has gaff and battens and is shaped like the main.
It is intended to sail with the first reef in the main, unless the
breeze is very light, as per the CG rig description in 103 Rigs.
There is a unique solution to the problem of how to fit rudder,
tiller, outboard and mizzenmast on the transom. There are twin,
shallow, endplate-type rudders on the outer edges of the transom. The
outboard is on centerline. The mizzenmast is also on centerline, with
the tabernacle tall enough to hold the butt of the mast above the
outboard. The tabernacle is an A-frame to allow room to swing the
centerline tiller, mounted just below the mizzenmast. The folded
masts will fit within the boat length (if you include rudders in the
length.)
The cabin includes two 6?-8? long settees amidships. These are
intended to convert to one queen-sized berth. There were no other
cabin details on the preliminary drawing. The write-up talked about
two pipe berths that could be temporarily rigged somewhere in the
cabin, but I was not clear on the details.
I have built a model from the preliminary drawing. I posted photos on
Bolger3 in a file named Wandervogel. Having seen the model?s photos,
PB&F have said they thought the cabin should extend further forward.
The picture with sails up has the lower panel of the main cut off, to
represent the first reef, which is 20% of the mains?l area. The
figure at the helm in the model photos is a ?Skipper? doll, who would
be 6?-2? tall at 1.5? = 1? scale.
Doug
which should come off the board soon. It is an elaboration on the
Wandervogel cartoon that was rig number 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. I
commissioned it about a year ago. I was looking for a comfortable,
trailerable, shoal-draft cruiser. The William D. Jochems design was
appealing, but ultimately, I decided it was more ambitious than I
wanted to build and tow. Wandervogel is a couple feet smaller at
23?-9? x 6?-9? x 8?, or about the size of a Martha Jane. It has the
Birdwatcher style cabin, but like Jochems, has a small cockpit for
when the weather is too fine to stay inside. The rig is the Chinese
Gaff. The cartoon in 103 Rigs was a cat, but it has since evolved to
a cat-yawl. Once you have the sheet staff, why not a yawl?
I intend the boat to be water-ballasted. PB&F are pushing the idea of
metal plate armoring the bottom instead. I suspect that the final
plans will include both options. The preliminary drawings had twin
bilge boards with cases integrated into the settee backs, to satisfy
those who are offended by the appearance of leeboards. I have asked
for leeboards as I subscribe to the KISS principle and I suspect that
the plans will show both options. To answer the demand for relief
from sharpie hull noises in waves, Wandervogel will have a V-shaped
bottom forward. It is typical sharpie flat aft.
The rig includes the unique Chinese Gaff vang (a line from the mast
head to the front end of the boom, which extends a couple feet forward
of the mast.) The main area is 295 square feet and the mizzen is 67.
(Compare 362 square feet available to the 247 on Martha Jane. If you
would rather sail than listen to the motor, this design has the
power.) The mizzen has gaff and battens and is shaped like the main.
It is intended to sail with the first reef in the main, unless the
breeze is very light, as per the CG rig description in 103 Rigs.
There is a unique solution to the problem of how to fit rudder,
tiller, outboard and mizzenmast on the transom. There are twin,
shallow, endplate-type rudders on the outer edges of the transom. The
outboard is on centerline. The mizzenmast is also on centerline, with
the tabernacle tall enough to hold the butt of the mast above the
outboard. The tabernacle is an A-frame to allow room to swing the
centerline tiller, mounted just below the mizzenmast. The folded
masts will fit within the boat length (if you include rudders in the
length.)
The cabin includes two 6?-8? long settees amidships. These are
intended to convert to one queen-sized berth. There were no other
cabin details on the preliminary drawing. The write-up talked about
two pipe berths that could be temporarily rigged somewhere in the
cabin, but I was not clear on the details.
I have built a model from the preliminary drawing. I posted photos on
Bolger3 in a file named Wandervogel. Having seen the model?s photos,
PB&F have said they thought the cabin should extend further forward.
The picture with sails up has the lower panel of the main cut off, to
represent the first reef, which is 20% of the mains?l area. The
figure at the helm in the model photos is a ?Skipper? doll, who would
be 6?-2? tall at 1.5? = 1? scale.
Doug