Re: Bolger design direction
Comfy's the word. Mine's just barely wet but clearly is about twice as contained, safe,
and stable feeling as functional
8 foot boat could possibly be.
Most _boat_ from three sheets of plywood, definitely. Not letting the esthetics or
what's thought to be proper compromise the function is also part of the rigor. Yet, maybe
it's only 'cause I have the labor in one or the appropriate sense of humor, but can even
like the looks.
Mark
Lincoln Ross wrote:
and stable feeling as functional
8 foot boat could possibly be.
Most _boat_ from three sheets of plywood, definitely. Not letting the esthetics or
what's thought to be proper compromise the function is also part of the rigor. Yet, maybe
it's only 'cause I have the labor in one or the appropriate sense of humor, but can even
like the looks.
Mark
Lincoln Ross wrote:
>
> I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
> least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
> sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
> have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
> it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
> at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
> people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
> tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
> around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
> underloaded.
> >Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> >snip
> >Brick is more or less an intellectual
> >exercise is how much boat can be
> >squeezed out of three sheets of
> >plywood, with the 'function' being
> >secondary.
> >
> snip
>
I think it's more than an intellectual exercise. . Brick is perhaps the
least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
underloaded.
least trouble to get a boat that will sail ok with 3 or so adults. I've
sailed it with two adults, and with 4 little boys as passengers, and
have seen it with 4 adults. Only the 4 adults seemed too much, although
it did work. I think it works way better than an intellectual exercise,
at least if built close to plans and using the Bohndell sail. With two
people you can just tack upwind, moving only the hand that is on the
tiller and not anything else except maybe turning your head to look
around. Comfy. With a crew weight around 400 lbs. it seemed slightly
underloaded.
>Bruce Hallman wrote:snip
>
>snip
>Brick is more or less an intellectual
>exercise is how much boat can be
>squeezed out of three sheets of
>plywood, with the 'function' being
>secondary.
>
> Like haiku poetry.Alternatly, would could discuss adopting (or inventing) an Official
Light Verse Form for the Bolger Group.
dbaldnz wrote:
If we are going to start arguing of
how many angels can dance on the
head of a pin, lets discuss which
Bolger boat is the true pinnacle of
this design philosophy.
I would argue that it is Tortoise,
which has the elegant simplicity
of the others, but unlike the others
it has more...it has 'function'.
Brick is more or less an intellectual
exercise is how much boat can be
squeezed out of three sheets of
plywood, with the 'function' being
secondary.
Tortoise, on the other hand, is an
response to the desire: To find
the perfect, capable, disposable
boat tender.
Bolger describes Tortoise:
=========quoting=====
This was meant to he a disposable boat
if there ever was one: shop-grade
plywood (though I'm beginning to think
this cheap material may be less apt to rot
than exterior-grade), no priming, one coat
of white paint. But Tortoise grew on me.
She rowed quite well if I kept the stroke
short and gentle. She towed in docile
fashion at eight knots (as fast as the
cruiser would go). I could swing around
in her, and even stand up, without feeling
very insecure. She carried without
protest two live men and two dead
marine batteries. I could throw the oars
and the seat up on the cruiser's deck,
about 4' above the water, and snake the
punt up after me .without a second
thought.... I figured it
would take up so little room on a public
float that nobody would resent it lying
there, look so unpretentious that vandals
might not think of vandalizing it, and cost
so little that it wouldn't break my heart if
they did. It was also supposed to be of
the right proportions to rest my weight on
when I had to walk over salt-water ice,
pushing it ahead of me.
> I also agree that some of his designsLike haiku poetry.
> like Brick reach the pinnacle of
> simplicity, and purity,
If we are going to start arguing of
how many angels can dance on the
head of a pin, lets discuss which
Bolger boat is the true pinnacle of
this design philosophy.
I would argue that it is Tortoise,
which has the elegant simplicity
of the others, but unlike the others
it has more...it has 'function'.
Brick is more or less an intellectual
exercise is how much boat can be
squeezed out of three sheets of
plywood, with the 'function' being
secondary.
Tortoise, on the other hand, is an
response to the desire: To find
the perfect, capable, disposable
boat tender.
Bolger describes Tortoise:
=========quoting=====
This was meant to he a disposable boat
if there ever was one: shop-grade
plywood (though I'm beginning to think
this cheap material may be less apt to rot
than exterior-grade), no priming, one coat
of white paint. But Tortoise grew on me.
She rowed quite well if I kept the stroke
short and gentle. She towed in docile
fashion at eight knots (as fast as the
cruiser would go). I could swing around
in her, and even stand up, without feeling
very insecure. She carried without
protest two live men and two dead
marine batteries. I could throw the oars
and the seat up on the cruiser's deck,
about 4' above the water, and snake the
punt up after me .without a second
thought.... I figured it
would take up so little room on a public
float that nobody would resent it lying
there, look so unpretentious that vandals
might not think of vandalizing it, and cost
so little that it wouldn't break my heart if
they did. It was also supposed to be of
the right proportions to rest my weight on
when I had to walk over salt-water ice,
pushing it ahead of me.
As owner of half a Brick, I have to agree. (Which half, I'm afraid I
don't know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to,
and it's way roomy, comfortable, and it can carry a huge load. There
should be more Bricks. My friends kids don't really like his 24 foot
glass boat, but they really like the Brick.
don't know.) The silly thing sails much better than it has any right to,
and it's way roomy, comfortable, and it can carry a huge load. There
should be more Bricks. My friends kids don't really like his 24 foot
glass boat, but they really like the Brick.
>juan negron wrote:
>
> snip
>I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
>not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
>of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
>design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
>I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
>two kids!
>
>snip
>You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
>a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
>these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
>wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
>They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
>that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
>
>Juan.
>
Ah, you speak a great truth John.
Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn't found his life
become more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive!
Providentially it came to Phillip C. Bolger a lot later in life than
most of us.
DonB
"John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...> All men need the guidance
of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have
become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive.
Show me a man with a woman in this Group, who hasn't found his life
become more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive!
Providentially it came to Phillip C. Bolger a lot later in life than
most of us.
DonB
"John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...> All men need the guidance
of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have
become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive.
>posts
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: juan negron
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction
>
>
> All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
> trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
> some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
> architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
> course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
> letting us knhat he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
> another point is aimed for.
>
> I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
> not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
> of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
> design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
> I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
> two kids!
>
> As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
> obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
> emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
> of one of the facets of a boat designer.
>
> You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
> a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
> these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
> wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
> They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
> that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
>
> Juan.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You must be thinking of someone else on this thread Juan, because I
never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain
myself from building a Brick at one stage!
I also agree that some of his designs like Brick reach the pinnacle of
simplicity, and purity, a good word you use.
DonB
never criticized the simple boats at all. In fact I had to restrain
myself from building a Brick at one stage!
I also agree that some of his designs like Brick reach the pinnacle of
simplicity, and purity, a good word you use.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, juan negron <juan.negron@g...> wrote:
> All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
> trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
> some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
> architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
> course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
> letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
> another point is aimed for.
>
> I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
> not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
> of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
> design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
> I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
> two kids!
>
> As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
> obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
> emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
> of one of the facets of a boat designer.
>
> You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
> a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
> these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
> wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
> They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
> that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
>
> Juan.
Bolger's genius/weakness is that he established a set of parameters for a design and pursued those parameters to their logical conclusion, no matter how far off the beaten path that took him. All men need the guidance of a good woman, and since PCB became PB&F, the resulting designs have become a little more conventional, complex, and a lot more expensive. A classic example is Birdwatcher I vs. Birdwatcher II. Both boats have the same interior volume and seaworthiness. BW II is probably faster, more refined, expensive, and heavier than BW I. Happily, both sets of plans remain available, so you can choose between them (or mix and match features from both).
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: juan negron
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger design direction
All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
another point is aimed for.
I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
two kids!
As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
of one of the facets of a boat designer.
You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
Juan.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
All true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
another point is aimed for.
I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
two kids!
As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
of one of the facets of a boat designer.
You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
Juan.
trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
another point is aimed for.
I have built a Brick. To call a brick "crude" means you have either
not built one, or you have missed the pointS completely. Brick is one
of the most amazing examples of elegant no-holds-barred efficient
design. The damned things sail *proportionately* better than anything
I know. ( Try to sail in ANYTHING that is only 8' with 4 adults and
two kids!
As I was building it I kept saying out loud "Of course!" " Well,
obviously" and other expressions ( laced with some expletives for
emphasis). Contrary to your statement, the Brick is close to the apex
of one of the facets of a boat designer.
You can probably not build any other boat capable of delivering such
a fun - enjoyment / effort - expense ratio. That Bolger called
these boats what he called them means not awareness of crudeness, but
wit. He knows these boats may SEEM crude or simple, but they are not.
They are masterpieces of economy ( quality/expense), and calling them
that I think is a joke on those not in the know.
Juan.
FBBB,
An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania
for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is
about making compromises. Good design is making good compromises.
YIBB,
David
An untempered mania for thrift is no better than an untempered mania
for weatherliness, or any other one design characteristic. Design is
about making compromises. Good design is making good compromises.
YIBB,
David
> Tortoisegifted :).......bolgerados are such a talented bunch
>
> Such a wee punt!
> Too ugly to steal
> Right-side-up & dry
> Made a cat laugh.
> trying to squeeze a boat down toTortoise
> its' last drop of "basicness" with [haiku].
Such a wee punt!
Too ugly to steal
Right-side-up & dry
Made a cat laugh.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
another point is aimed for.
I like the "new" swing his creativity has taken,in particular his
demonstration that plywood built boats need not follow traditional
plywood shapes or styles.When I think of the forward sections of
boats like TOPAZ etc,with their developed "fillet pieces" and box-
keels to soften the ride of an otherwise flat-bottomed boat or the
cabin profiles and fenestration of this new group, I cannot help but
think of another rennaisance for amateur boatbuilding. That he
relies more on plywood may also suggest his sensitivity to dwindling
supplies of old fashion boat lumber and the high cost of what is
obtainable.
But that last part is just speculation on my part :-)
On HIS side too is the long list of boats with enchanting lines and
salty appearances which,sometimes over-shadowed by HIS more
outragious populace plywood designs,are just too "complex" and
expensive for a simple backyard amateur boabuilder.
The best testamonial is the very fact that HE continues to be"right
there" producing fresh designs(back-logged with work,infact!) yet
some of HIS basic stuff,like the Instant boat fleet continues to
draw complete and not so complete novices into building their own
boat some 20+ years after they were designed. He does indeed have
an "Open Mind" for"Different Boats" ,"Odd Boats" and "Small Boats"
while always ready for new design "Adventures"..:-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who even today spent some time parked on my rear-end
in front of Windermere being seduced by the shape of the fillet
pieces which I KNOW were just plywood panels yet remain confounded
by their transformation into such a lovely complex shape,from along
the shores of the steamy St.Lawrence..........
> Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost ofone
> turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in hisAll true Don and I think he just about went as far as one can go in
> economy boat designs.
trying to squeeze a boat down to its' last drop of "basicness" with
some designs being so crude and simple that the titles of navel
architech or boat designer were rendered almost meaningless.Of
course,anyone who would call a design BRICK,SHOEBOX or TORTISE is
letting us know that he is aware of the simple crudeness and that
another point is aimed for.
I like the "new" swing his creativity has taken,in particular his
demonstration that plywood built boats need not follow traditional
plywood shapes or styles.When I think of the forward sections of
boats like TOPAZ etc,with their developed "fillet pieces" and box-
keels to soften the ride of an otherwise flat-bottomed boat or the
cabin profiles and fenestration of this new group, I cannot help but
think of another rennaisance for amateur boatbuilding. That he
relies more on plywood may also suggest his sensitivity to dwindling
supplies of old fashion boat lumber and the high cost of what is
obtainable.
But that last part is just speculation on my part :-)
On HIS side too is the long list of boats with enchanting lines and
salty appearances which,sometimes over-shadowed by HIS more
outragious populace plywood designs,are just too "complex" and
expensive for a simple backyard amateur boabuilder.
The best testamonial is the very fact that HE continues to be"right
there" producing fresh designs(back-logged with work,infact!) yet
some of HIS basic stuff,like the Instant boat fleet continues to
draw complete and not so complete novices into building their own
boat some 20+ years after they were designed. He does indeed have
an "Open Mind" for"Different Boats" ,"Odd Boats" and "Small Boats"
while always ready for new design "Adventures"..:-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who even today spent some time parked on my rear-end
in front of Windermere being seduced by the shape of the fillet
pieces which I KNOW were just plywood panels yet remain confounded
by their transformation into such a lovely complex shape,from along
the shores of the steamy St.Lawrence..........
Yet for so long, he went to amazing lengths to save the cost of one
turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
economy boat designs. And it seems to coincide with his new
partner.....just an observation,
DonB
turning block. Now there seems little regard for economy in his
economy boat designs. And it seems to coincide with his new
partner.....just an observation,
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> > I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
> > seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
> > boats.
>
> The 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
> designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
> by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
> changed with time.
Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:
designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
changed with time.
> I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i haveThe 'Instant Boat' phase of Bolger's work came after 30 years of
> seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
> boats.
designing boats, and he is now in the 52nd year of designing boats
by my estimate. No big surprise that his styles and tastes have
changed with time.
Don-
I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
boats. I was wondering if some of these changes, i.e. steel plates,
tabernacles, rigs, lexan and such is a product of Susan's influence.
So be it. I think that new boat(forgot the name) is great, i really
like it better than the birdwatcher, Jochem's and MJ. But i bet
Martha Jane could most likely be built in 2/3's the time and cost
(original MJ).
Same goes for the micro evolution. The first looked to be great but
the latter suites me better. I think the micro has lost alot of
simplicity since it's inception. But it still beats cold molding a
farthing though. Regardless the boats, both old and new retain the
Bolger charm.
Jason
I totally agree. Bolger's newer designs (ply ones anyhow) i have
seen have gotten much more complex since the original "instant"
boats. I was wondering if some of these changes, i.e. steel plates,
tabernacles, rigs, lexan and such is a product of Susan's influence.
So be it. I think that new boat(forgot the name) is great, i really
like it better than the birdwatcher, Jochem's and MJ. But i bet
Martha Jane could most likely be built in 2/3's the time and cost
(original MJ).
Same goes for the micro evolution. The first looked to be great but
the latter suites me better. I think the micro has lost alot of
simplicity since it's inception. But it still beats cold molding a
farthing though. Regardless the boats, both old and new retain the
Bolger charm.
Jason
A first look at Wandervogel shows an interesting design, clearly
following on from other recent boats.
But thinking further, is Bolger not heading in a different direction
from his earlier designs? I am considering here his smaller sailing
boats for basic purposes. When you consider Wandervogel, she has 2
rudders, 2 tabernacles, a multitude of wooden spars in a complicated
arrangement, lots of expensive lexan sheet, all taking lots more
time and money than previous designs for similar use.
I suspect this trend has evolved with his wife's participation in
the design process.
I'm not making these comments critically, rather to notice a
definite shift in his philosophy.
DonB
following on from other recent boats.
But thinking further, is Bolger not heading in a different direction
from his earlier designs? I am considering here his smaller sailing
boats for basic purposes. When you consider Wandervogel, she has 2
rudders, 2 tabernacles, a multitude of wooden spars in a complicated
arrangement, lots of expensive lexan sheet, all taking lots more
time and money than previous designs for similar use.
I suspect this trend has evolved with his wife's participation in
the design process.
I'm not making these comments critically, rather to notice a
definite shift in his philosophy.
DonB