Re: seaworthy bolger ply designs.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
Jason,
As a friend of mine is fond of saying,"they've crossed the
Atlantic on a Windsurfer and the Titanic sank!" Good
construction,good seamanship and good luck play very big,key,roles
in the success of any off-shore small boat adventure.
And yes,too,just how much dis-comfort you think you can put up
with for a protracted length of time :-)
But lets' not dilly-dally over this,you've got a boat to build
and launch before Christmas! Enough time on the computer alraedy! :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to seeing a Micro Navigator,any
Navigator,even a Micro(!) under sail..........
wrote:
Jason,
As a friend of mine is fond of saying,"they've crossed the
Atlantic on a Windsurfer and the Titanic sank!" Good
construction,good seamanship and good luck play very big,key,roles
in the success of any off-shore small boat adventure.
And yes,too,just how much dis-comfort you think you can put up
with for a protracted length of time :-)
But lets' not dilly-dally over this,you've got a boat to build
and launch before Christmas! Enough time on the computer alraedy! :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to seeing a Micro Navigator,any
Navigator,even a Micro(!) under sail..........
Seaworthy.... VMG with out effort or stress, comfortably!!!
Todd
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
Todd
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind ofdidn't
> small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
> boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
> confidence.
>
> "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
>
> AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
> AS29......maybe, maybe not
> seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
> The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
> Centenial II.......not me
> Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
> Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i
> ask......must be some crazies out there
> Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
> Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
> romp.......well proven
> yonder.....better than romp
> Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
> etc.
>
> What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
> never even heard off.
>
> jason
> Wow--that could be modified into a great liveaboard.Indeed so. I believe that one is under construction, but I have not
seen any pictures. It is easy to see how the house could be extended
thru the hold area to make a roomy boat, as you suggest, but, damn,
that well-deck would be a great "space" (as they say in
achitecture).
Peter
Wow--that could be modified into a great liveaboard.
Anybody have any information about this design? Have
any been built?
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Anybody have any information about this design? Have
any been built?
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> >http://hallman.org/sbj/74/__________________________________
> > Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
>
> Quite like the 30' cargo Motorsailer.
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>http://hallman.org/sbj/74/Quite like the 30' cargo Motorsailer.
> Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/MS%20Cargo%20Boat/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Thanks Bruce-
Somebody asks and you post a picture. Have you converted your garage
to a library?
Jason
> > Can anyone post a scan of this thing?*************************************************
>http://hallman.org/sbj/74/
>
> Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
> The hull shape is close to Col.H.G.Hasler.
Thanks Bruce-
Somebody asks and you post a picture. Have you converted your garage
to a library?
Jason
> Can anyone post a scan of this thing?http://hallman.org/sbj/74/
Definately not the Motor Sailer in BWAOM
The hull shape is close to Col.H.G.Hasler.
And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on
the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.
I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
when we drove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.
I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
...
In my very limited experience, and in my waters ( the Med ), I have
learned that there usually is a size of wave, just under the size that
will float the boat over it, that is much more dangerous than the
large ones.
Large waves ( unless breaking ) tend to make boats do the bottle
cork, but the smaller ones that make the boat break them are the ones
that stress the boat and crew, and can, if not careful, trip or break
you.
Juan.
the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.
I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
when we drove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.
I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
...
In my very limited experience, and in my waters ( the Med ), I have
learned that there usually is a size of wave, just under the size that
will float the boat over it, that is much more dangerous than the
large ones.
Large waves ( unless breaking ) tend to make boats do the bottle
cork, but the smaller ones that make the boat break them are the ones
that stress the boat and crew, and can, if not careful, trip or break
you.
Juan.
This would be a lot like his Fast Motorsailer featured in his book Boats with an Open Mind(BWAOM) or is it entirely differnt type of concept?
"Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@...> wrote:Jason,
A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.
I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.
Lewis
(too many projects)
"Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@...> wrote:Jason,
A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.
I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.
Lewis
(too many projects)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
> small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
> boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
> confidence.
>
> "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
>
> AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
> AS29......maybe, maybe not
> seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
> The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
> Centenial II.......not me
> Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
> Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
> ask......must be some crazies out there
> Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
> Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
> romp.......well proven
> yonder.....better than romp
> Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
> etc.
>
> What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
> never even heard off.
>
> jason
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> A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed upat
> the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolgerwas
> very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthyCan anyone post a scan of this thing?
> boat by design.
Thanks,
Jason
Jason,
A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.
I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.
Lewis
(too many projects)
A 23' Motorsailer from SJB #74 (I think, my collection is boxed up at
the monent) that never went beyond the cartoon stage. Mr. Bolger was
very enthuastic at the time about it as being the minimal seaworthy
boat by design. (This was the early 80's.) It was the first boat with
a "cutwater" that I remember seeing. Plywood taped seam construction.
I still want to build it from the cartoon. I have developed the
offsets and faired them with an old CAD program.
Lewis
(too many projects)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
> small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
> boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
> confidence.
>
> "seaworthy"......you decide what that means
>
> AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
> AS29......maybe, maybe not
> seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
> The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
> Centenial II.......not me
> Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
> Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
> ask......must be some crazies out there
> Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
> Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
> romp.......well proven
> yonder.....better than romp
> Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
> etc.
>
> What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
> never even heard off.
>
> jason
Most certainly "on deck"
Because what can go wrong will go wrong and if you attempt a major
open sea crossing you can count on being on deck in bad weather.
And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on
the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.
I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
when we ddrove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.
I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
square in the Tasmin) coming at us from the starboard side day after
day. We all kept thinking of what it would be like if one hit us but
every one slipped under the boat. Still, after a week, someone would
still call out every once in a while - "holy s___, look at that one!)
Aand we would watch it approach and feel it slip under us.
I don't thing I can write down what seaworthy is but I know what it
feels like when you have a seaworthy boat under you.
If you have not been out there, you have to rely on people like
Bolger. For those of us who have, I think we each have our own
definition based on our experiences.
Because what can go wrong will go wrong and if you attempt a major
open sea crossing you can count on being on deck in bad weather.
And the first time your boat falls off a big wave and you are out on
the bow, you will know what seaworthy is.
I recall as clear as day the first time I stood there cresting on one
wave and looking 20 feet down into the trough I was petrified and
when we ddrove down and only about a quart of water came on deck, I
was blown away. Sure did wonders for my confidence.
I recall bright sunny days watching 3 or 4 meter waves (they are
square in the Tasmin) coming at us from the starboard side day after
day. We all kept thinking of what it would be like if one hit us but
every one slipped under the boat. Still, after a week, someone would
still call out every once in a while - "holy s___, look at that one!)
Aand we would watch it approach and feel it slip under us.
I don't thing I can write down what seaworthy is but I know what it
feels like when you have a seaworthy boat under you.
If you have not been out there, you have to rely on people like
Bolger. For those of us who have, I think we each have our own
definition based on our experiences.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> pvanderwaart wrote:
> > 4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A
> > cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
> > position and muster the strength to handle the rig?
>
> "On deck?" <grin>
>
> This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea
> of H.G. 'Blondie' Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer 'Jester'
> which is(was) designed to be handled entirely from inside the
> cabin, with no reason whatever to go 'on deck' when it is nasty.
>
> Several of Bolger's recent designs use this philosophy,
> and the Chinese Gaffer rig's main purpose is for this
> reason too.
I like your description of "Storm Petrel" - "made to take a beating,
but not cruise"
In his commentary on Storm Petrel, PCB wrote:
"I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all
weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part
of it. Quality of handling and gear are, if anything, more important.
"I admit to skepticism about the possibility of a foolproof boat, and
when politicians and bureaucrats set out to prohibit the other kind,
the first thing that happens is that they make boats a lot more
expensive without making them much safer. The second thing is that
when making boats more expensive doesn't get results, they start
restricting their use and end up by locking everybody in padded cells
where they'll be quite safe.
"However that may be, what the designer can do about seaworthiness is
to lay out the boat in such a way that it can roll over and over, be
totally submerged and come through rightside up without a disastrous
amount of water inside. He can also do a good deal to help the
builder make it strong enough to stand these things.
"The Storm Petrel is supposed to be the absolute minimum seaworthy
boat."
Steve H
but not cruise"
In his commentary on Storm Petrel, PCB wrote:
"I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all
weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part
of it. Quality of handling and gear are, if anything, more important.
"I admit to skepticism about the possibility of a foolproof boat, and
when politicians and bureaucrats set out to prohibit the other kind,
the first thing that happens is that they make boats a lot more
expensive without making them much safer. The second thing is that
when making boats more expensive doesn't get results, they start
restricting their use and end up by locking everybody in padded cells
where they'll be quite safe.
"However that may be, what the designer can do about seaworthiness is
to lay out the boat in such a way that it can roll over and over, be
totally submerged and come through rightside up without a disastrous
amount of water inside. He can also do a good deal to help the
builder make it strong enough to stand these things.
"The Storm Petrel is supposed to be the absolute minimum seaworthy
boat."
Steve H
pvanderwaart wrote:
This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea
of H.G. 'Blondie' Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer 'Jester'
which is(was) designed to be handled entirely from inside the
cabin, with no reason whatever to go 'on deck' when it is nasty.
Several of Bolger's recent designs use this philosophy,
and the Chinese Gaffer rig's main purpose is for this
reason too.
> 4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A"On deck?" <grin>
> cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
> position and muster the strength to handle the rig?
This is where Bolger & Friend draw upon the idea
of H.G. 'Blondie' Hasler & his trans-Atlantic racer 'Jester'
which is(was) designed to be handled entirely from inside the
cabin, with no reason whatever to go 'on deck' when it is nasty.
Several of Bolger's recent designs use this philosophy,
and the Chinese Gaffer rig's main purpose is for this
reason too.
> When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge ofThere is, of course, no unanimity of opinon on this complex
> seaworthiness?
question. Just in the last week I've read of Phil Bolger and Tom
MacNaughton saying that they thought the currently fashionable ideas
of what makes a cruising boat to be inadequate. I suppose them mean
boats of the Catalina/Hunter/Beneteau type, though neither was
specific. And they have very different ideas about what makes a good
boat. I've seen each of them dismiss features that the other likes.
What I think in terms of is
1) Is it going to keep the water out? General strength of
construction, care with respect to hatches and vents.
2) Is it going to stay right side up? Range of stability.
3) Can it handle heavy weather? This means power to carry sail so
that it can get upwind in all but the strongest storms.
4) Does it take care of the crew? A deck you can get around on. A
cockpit with protection. A safe interior. Can the crew get into
position and muster the strength to handle the rig?
A boat should be seaworthy in these terms for coastal cruising. If
you want ocean crossing, you have to add a certain load carrying
capacity for supplies.
These are just the first-order terms. There are second-order terms
of great importance such as a comfortable motion at sea. And
equipment is very important. Storm sails, reefing gear, anchors, etc.
Peter
Phil,
When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge of
seaworthiness? Can you point to a feature or trait and say that is or is not
desirable. Or is it the �overall� look of the boat and rig that tells you.
For example, do you have a spreadsheet and assign points either positive or
negative for a list of characteristics in the design, construction and rig.
Is this a gut reaction, or have you put numbers to any of this based on
comparing other boats that have a track record, good or bad.
Thanks,
Robert Gainer
When you look at a design, what is it that you use as a gauge of
seaworthiness? Can you point to a feature or trait and say that is or is not
desirable. Or is it the �overall� look of the boat and rig that tells you.
For example, do you have a spreadsheet and assign points either positive or
negative for a list of characteristics in the design, construction and rig.
Is this a gut reaction, or have you put numbers to any of this based on
comparing other boats that have a track record, good or bad.
Thanks,
Robert Gainer
>From: "Phil S." <newbarndesign@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: seaworthy bolger ply designs.
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:17:15 -0000
>
>Hi Jason I am not sure if you are looking for a sail or power only, but i
>just recieved the
>packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design issues I
>am not fond of
>it looks to be a really sea worthy and excelent design.
>Regards
>phil
>
> > "seaworthy"......you decide what that meansPCB: "I define seaworthiness as the ability to keep the sea in all
weathers in reasonable safety. Design and construction are only part
of it.
Quality of handling and gear are, if anything, more important"
Other seaworthy Bolger boats,
_Col. H.G. Hasler_, 20'0" LOA 8'0" breadth, welded steel construction,
"Minimum World Crusing Single-hander"
Also, _Fiji_ 34'7" LWL 11'0" breadth,
"go-anywhere yawl"
Both these boats have Chinese Cat Yawl rigs.
I also recall a Bolger boat called "passagemaker" but I can't
find any notes on it, anybody else remember this?
Hi Jason I am not sure if you are looking for a sail or power only, but i just recieved the
packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design issues I am not fond of
it looks to be a really sea worthy and excelent design.
Regards
phil
packet from Phil and Friends about Tahiti, Other than some design issues I am not fond of
it looks to be a really sea worthy and excelent design.
Regards
phil
> "seaworthy"......you decide what that means39' centerboard yawl
the 30' ply, leeboard cruiser for the Red Sea? Avara?
I've been thumbing through lots of books trying to see what kind of
small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
confidence.
"seaworthy"......you decide what that means
AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
AS29......maybe, maybe not
seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
Centenial II.......not me
Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
ask......must be some crazies out there
Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
romp.......well proven
yonder.....better than romp
Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
etc.
What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
never even heard off.
jason
small ply boats bolger deemed seeworthy. He never seemed to doom a
boat but would say "in a pinch" it would do. Doesn't instill
confidence.
"seaworthy"......you decide what that means
AS39....it's done the atlantic, not small
AS29......maybe, maybe not
seabird 86'.......better than the original and it made it across
The ostar's boats.....the where designed for it right?
Centenial II.......not me
Storm petryl......made to take a beating, but not cruise
Micro Navigator.....susan told me NOT for circumnavigation! i didn't
ask......must be some crazies out there
Long Micro Navigator.....opinions?
Jessie cooper.......in a pinch
romp.......well proven
yonder.....better than romp
Col Hasler.........supposed to be....steel
etc.
What do you folks think? I know there are dozens of designs i have
never even heard off.
jason