Re: micro lugger!
Thanks for the postive feedback Don. When i went for the navigator i
just wanted the house not really the rig. You may remember i got
oldshoe and micro plans and was originally just going to put a
little house on the old shoe, then you and bruce lured me in to the
navigator. I liked the chinese gaff rig but always new it was
too "busy for me(lazy). It's only 15 feet of boat how out of control
can it get ;) with a goof rig?
Jason
***********************************************************
just wanted the house not really the rig. You may remember i got
oldshoe and micro plans and was originally just going to put a
little house on the old shoe, then you and bruce lured me in to the
navigator. I liked the chinese gaff rig but always new it was
too "busy for me(lazy). It's only 15 feet of boat how out of control
can it get ;) with a goof rig?
Jason
***********************************************************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> I very much hear what you are saying about the simplicity aspect
> Jason. Complicated boats don't get sailed so often. If you are
> making the sail yourself, why not give it a go as an experiment?
> The boat is small enough not to get into too much trouble if it
gets
> out of hand.
> Before I started on my Navigator conversion, I looked at a similar
> rig, but still with the mizzen.....then I saw the Navigator and
went
> that way.....not sure yet if I did the right thing.
> If you found it too hard to handle, you could convert the rig to
> full chinese, make it even bigger and reefing would be as easy as
> pulling down the blinds at home,
> DonB
I very much hear what you are saying about the simplicity aspect
Jason. Complicated boats don't get sailed so often. If you are
making the sail yourself, why not give it a go as an experiment?
The boat is small enough not to get into too much trouble if it gets
out of hand.
Before I started on my Navigator conversion, I looked at a similar
rig, but still with the mizzen.....then I saw the Navigator and went
that way.....not sure yet if I did the right thing.
If you found it too hard to handle, you could convert the rig to
full chinese, make it even bigger and reefing would be as easy as
pulling down the blinds at home,
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
Jason. Complicated boats don't get sailed so often. If you are
making the sail yourself, why not give it a go as an experiment?
The boat is small enough not to get into too much trouble if it gets
out of hand.
Before I started on my Navigator conversion, I looked at a similar
rig, but still with the mizzen.....then I saw the Navigator and went
that way.....not sure yet if I did the right thing.
If you found it too hard to handle, you could convert the rig to
full chinese, make it even bigger and reefing would be as easy as
pulling down the blinds at home,
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> I know everone is sick of my fiddling questions andboat
> thoughts......funny thing is that the whole thing is built to the
> plans so far, even though i keep babbling about changes.
>
> So heres the deal i'm a graduate student and my funds for this
> are about dry!Bolger
>
> With less than 5 degrees mast rake i can get the martha
> jane main to line up within 2" of the bolger sailplan centroid I
> did a scale blueprint and have triple checked it). The problem is
> the boom is 6 inches longer than the boat (protrudes 8" beyond the
> stern.......could trip up if i do too much dummy stuff.
> I believe i can fiddle that 2" out and if i still have lee helm
> could make my rudder an inch or to longer to back up the CLR.
> has done this on the newer navigator version.do
>
> I'm almost done building my micro navigator (30 days plus rigging
> time) and i calculated the
> cost of rigging for the chinese gaff cat yawl.......hardware alone
> will run 250 bucks(low end)! 24 blocks(new navigator rig) and alot
> of fairleads and
> over 250' of lines. Thus my thougts of conversion. No matter
> how much i dream of cruising the old school balanced lugger will
> me fineto
> 98% of the time with only 4 blocks and 100' of lines......i can
> still run all the lines to the inside of the pilot house. i may(?)
> have to slide the hatch for 30 seconds to reef.....i'll do
> slab/jiffy reef style. Another reason for this idea is to encourage
> my impulse sails the chinese gaffer will not get rigged spur of the
> moment. My little brick/pd with a lug sail takes all of 60 seconds
> step the mast, set the tack, raise the yard and reset the tack toand
> go......I figure the big lug will take about 5 minutes as i'll stow
> it rigged and the mast is on a counterbalanced tabernacle.
>
> I know i'll loose the self steering ability and steady anchoring
> 5-10 degrees(?) of pointing ability but it's a matter of launchingwill
> next month or next year. For day sailing i know the balance rig
> be better and i can sew it up myself on the cheap.http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YD0SQVnWGygqS6e3nWGhplU8cd2rSU4uKWUDssle
>
> Go ahead flame me! There is a scale sailplan here:
>
> Fyd6tPfhNiiaxUUutO-IpQoFemwVYbld8VbIt2iywnwMg-
> 05s4uw_jNRN6mijTpBoA/lugger.bmp
>
> That's too big to link......it's in bolger 4 group in the files
> section, called micro lugger.
>
> Oh yeah sail area goes from 207sqft to 200 with this.
>
> Thoughts and curses appreciated,
> Jason
To understand more,
a good book to read about
sail theory and practice is:
Emiliano Marino's
_The Sailmaker's Apprentice_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/007157980X
a good book to read about
sail theory and practice is:
Emiliano Marino's
_The Sailmaker's Apprentice_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/007157980X
> So are you saying even though the centriod of the sails areYes, that is what I am saying. The book I have on hand
> the same the thrust is in a diff. location? Please explain.
(http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/s/reviews/curry/index.cfm)dates
from 1925 or so, but it was based on experiment. Curry, page 41: The
Center of Pressure. With the changes in relation of length to
breadth of a plane, not only do the pressure and its distribution
change, but the center of pressure does as well, shifting either
toward the fore edge, that is opposed to the wind, or toward the
rear edge, where the wind passes off the plane.
page 42: These curves show that the center of pressure on the high
sail for the small angles of opposition - that concern us on a beat
to the windward - lies farther forward, nearer its luff, than on the
low, gaff rigged sail.
The designer doesn't know where the center of pressure (thrust) is
since the actual center of pressure changes depending on the precise
trim of the sail. He is positioning the sail by rule of thumb based
on the centroid. Many designs from major designers have their rig
adjusted after trials of a prototype.
Peter
> Huh?same
> So are you saying even though the centriod of the sails are the
> the thrust is in a diff. location? Please explain.************************
> Jason
Also........Just trying to figure this out as the four sail plans i
have seen for micro all have the same cetroid location in relation
to the boat except the pre 1986 version with the smaller sprit rig(
alittle diff.......the post 86' sprit and the two navigator chinese
gaff sail plans are the same.
Jason
> On the MJ, I think that 2" difference would have less effect thansails
> the difference in the planform (shape) of the sail. (Different
> produce their thrust centered at different points.)********************************
Huh?
So are you saying even though the centriod of the sails are the same
the thrust is in a diff. location? Please explain.
Jason
> With less than 5 degrees mast rake i can get the marthaAs a point of comparison, when my 15' Cynthia J. catboat was built,
> jane main to line up within 2" of the bolger sailplan centroid...
the leeboards were hung about 5" too far aft. (The builder measured
forward from x rather than aft from y.) The occasional weather helm
was noticeable and annoying, but didn't keep the boat from sailing
pretty well.
On the MJ, I think that 2" difference would have less effect than
the difference in the planform (shape) of the sail. (Different sails
produce their thrust centered at different points.) There is more
ability to cope in a leeboard boat, especially with weather helm,
since you can bring the board back a little.
Peter
I know everone is sick of my fiddling questions and
thoughts......funny thing is that the whole thing is built to the
plans so far, even though i keep babbling about changes.
So heres the deal i'm a graduate student and my funds for this boat
are about dry!
With less than 5 degrees mast rake i can get the martha
jane main to line up within 2" of the bolger sailplan centroid I
did a scale blueprint and have triple checked it). The problem is
the boom is 6 inches longer than the boat (protrudes 8" beyond the
stern.......could trip up if i do too much dummy stuff.
I believe i can fiddle that 2" out and if i still have lee helm
could make my rudder an inch or to longer to back up the CLR. Bolger
has done this on the newer navigator version.
I'm almost done building my micro navigator (30 days plus rigging
time) and i calculated the
cost of rigging for the chinese gaff cat yawl.......hardware alone
will run 250 bucks(low end)! 24 blocks(new navigator rig) and alot
of fairleads and
over 250' of lines. Thus my thougts of conversion. No matter
how much i dream of cruising the old school balanced lugger will do
me fine
98% of the time with only 4 blocks and 100' of lines......i can
still run all the lines to the inside of the pilot house. i may(?)
have to slide the hatch for 30 seconds to reef.....i'll do
slab/jiffy reef style. Another reason for this idea is to encourage
my impulse sails the chinese gaffer will not get rigged spur of the
moment. My little brick/pd with a lug sail takes all of 60 seconds to
step the mast, set the tack, raise the yard and reset the tack to
go......I figure the big lug will take about 5 minutes as i'll stow
it rigged and the mast is on a counterbalanced tabernacle.
I know i'll loose the self steering ability and steady anchoring and
5-10 degrees(?) of pointing ability but it's a matter of launching
next month or next year. For day sailing i know the balance rig will
be better and i can sew it up myself on the cheap.
Go ahead flame me! There is a scale sailplan here:
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YD0SQVnWGygqS6e3nWGhplU8cd2rSU4uKWUDssle
Fyd6tPfhNiiaxUUutO-IpQoFemwVYbld8VbIt2iywnwMg-
05s4uw_jNRN6mijTpBoA/lugger.bmp
That's too big to link......it's in bolger 4 group in the files
section, called micro lugger.
Oh yeah sail area goes from 207sqft to 200 with this.
Thoughts and curses appreciated,
Jason
thoughts......funny thing is that the whole thing is built to the
plans so far, even though i keep babbling about changes.
So heres the deal i'm a graduate student and my funds for this boat
are about dry!
With less than 5 degrees mast rake i can get the martha
jane main to line up within 2" of the bolger sailplan centroid I
did a scale blueprint and have triple checked it). The problem is
the boom is 6 inches longer than the boat (protrudes 8" beyond the
stern.......could trip up if i do too much dummy stuff.
I believe i can fiddle that 2" out and if i still have lee helm
could make my rudder an inch or to longer to back up the CLR. Bolger
has done this on the newer navigator version.
I'm almost done building my micro navigator (30 days plus rigging
time) and i calculated the
cost of rigging for the chinese gaff cat yawl.......hardware alone
will run 250 bucks(low end)! 24 blocks(new navigator rig) and alot
of fairleads and
over 250' of lines. Thus my thougts of conversion. No matter
how much i dream of cruising the old school balanced lugger will do
me fine
98% of the time with only 4 blocks and 100' of lines......i can
still run all the lines to the inside of the pilot house. i may(?)
have to slide the hatch for 30 seconds to reef.....i'll do
slab/jiffy reef style. Another reason for this idea is to encourage
my impulse sails the chinese gaffer will not get rigged spur of the
moment. My little brick/pd with a lug sail takes all of 60 seconds to
step the mast, set the tack, raise the yard and reset the tack to
go......I figure the big lug will take about 5 minutes as i'll stow
it rigged and the mast is on a counterbalanced tabernacle.
I know i'll loose the self steering ability and steady anchoring and
5-10 degrees(?) of pointing ability but it's a matter of launching
next month or next year. For day sailing i know the balance rig will
be better and i can sew it up myself on the cheap.
Go ahead flame me! There is a scale sailplan here:
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YD0SQVnWGygqS6e3nWGhplU8cd2rSU4uKWUDssle
Fyd6tPfhNiiaxUUutO-IpQoFemwVYbld8VbIt2iywnwMg-
05s4uw_jNRN6mijTpBoA/lugger.bmp
That's too big to link......it's in bolger 4 group in the files
section, called micro lugger.
Oh yeah sail area goes from 207sqft to 200 with this.
Thoughts and curses appreciated,
Jason