Re: Versalam Spars?
> versalam update. I boiled a chunk for about three hours last nightI used a piece of thi once as an emergency fenc post. Its still there
> and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
> coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
> at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
> through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
> hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
> 22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
> stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
> guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
> scarfs up to 40' !
> Jason
after 6 years. Ours uses radiata pine and the checking seems to go
straight through the layers. the glue seems good though.
I'm told it wont warp but is very stiff and heay over longer
lengths.
Cheers Paul
Hi John,
All true.
I believe my Versalam was 1-7/8? thick, so my mast was 3.75" square -
powder glued - maybe a little slender. I rounded the corners but left
it square rather than remove more material. It weighed right at one
"grunt" ton (what you did when you picked it up).
The material I used scarfed several layers in one spot rather than
staggering them for some reason, so I always half-expected it to part
there. But it stood up perfectly well in 25 knot breezes, even with
my reacher set. On the lake, I didn't consider it dangerous, but I
probably wouldn't have taken a bunch of nuns offshore with it.
Gregg Carlson
All true.
I believe my Versalam was 1-7/8? thick, so my mast was 3.75" square -
powder glued - maybe a little slender. I rounded the corners but left
it square rather than remove more material. It weighed right at one
"grunt" ton (what you did when you picked it up).
The material I used scarfed several layers in one spot rather than
staggering them for some reason, so I always half-expected it to part
there. But it stood up perfectly well in 25 knot breezes, even with
my reacher set. On the lake, I didn't consider it dangerous, but I
probably wouldn't have taken a bunch of nuns offshore with it.
Gregg Carlson
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...> wrote:
> Greg Carlson, who is the founder of this group, used to have a Micro. He
> built his solid mast out of a piece of versalam, running the glue lines
> athwartships. IIRC, he said it worked fine, although it was very heavy.
>
> For those who don't know, Versalam and Glulam are unidirectional
plywood.
> The grain in the veneers all runs the same direction.
>
> JB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:12 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Versalam Spars?
>
>
> > Actually i don't plan on trying it anytime in the near future as i
> > already have my micro spars ready to go. Just thought the stuff
may> > be of interest to some folks(like me) that have a strong
adversion to> > scarfing.
> >> > The piece i have has few voids and they ae small enough and
Greg Carlson, who is the founder of this group, used to have a Micro. He
built his solid mast out of a piece of versalam, running the glue lines
athwartships. IIRC, he said it worked fine, although it was very heavy.
For those who don't know, Versalam and Glulam are unidirectional plywood.
The grain in the veneers all runs the same direction.
JB
built his solid mast out of a piece of versalam, running the glue lines
athwartships. IIRC, he said it worked fine, although it was very heavy.
For those who don't know, Versalam and Glulam are unidirectional plywood.
The grain in the veneers all runs the same direction.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Versalam Spars?
> Actually i don't plan on trying it anytime in the near future as i
> already have my micro spars ready to go. Just thought the stuff may
> be of interest to some folks(like me) that have a strong adversion to
> scarfing.
>
> The piece i have has few voids and they ae small enough and
> "Mast I ordered a 25 foot piece ofI remember that, now that you quote it. It is certainly easy to get
> VersaLam,...
caught up in the "First quality Sitka spruce, air dried for three
years, no knots, straight grain" mind set. There's lots of stuff to
try, if you can contemplate the possibility of a mast failure.
Peter
Actually i don't plan on trying it anytime in the near future as i
already have my micro spars ready to go. Just thought the stuff may
be of interest to some folks(like me) that have a strong adversion to
scarfing.
The piece i have has few voids and they ae small enough and
accessible enough in ripped mast stave form so as to easily
fill....95% of them. I would think it to be stronger than some kiln
dried knotty SPF some people build with....albeit much more
pricey.....It runs $3.50 a foot for a full 9" x 1.75"
I actually found somewhere on the web a fellow who build his micro's
spars from this stuff....."Mast I ordered a 25 foot piece of
VersaLam, which is essentially Douglas Fir plywood, 1-7/8 by 11-1/2
inch by whatever length you want, normally used for architectural
beams. I ripped two pieces (killing one circular saw) and glued and
screwed the mast with Weldwood plastic glue and temporary sheetrock
screws. I finished by band-sawing the taper and router-rounding the
corners, producing a rigid and strong but heavy spar. Scraps built a
strong mast partners."
here:
http://www.carlsondesign.com/projects.html#Micro
Jason
already have my micro spars ready to go. Just thought the stuff may
be of interest to some folks(like me) that have a strong adversion to
scarfing.
The piece i have has few voids and they ae small enough and
accessible enough in ripped mast stave form so as to easily
fill....95% of them. I would think it to be stronger than some kiln
dried knotty SPF some people build with....albeit much more
pricey.....It runs $3.50 a foot for a full 9" x 1.75"
I actually found somewhere on the web a fellow who build his micro's
spars from this stuff....."Mast I ordered a 25 foot piece of
VersaLam, which is essentially Douglas Fir plywood, 1-7/8 by 11-1/2
inch by whatever length you want, normally used for architectural
beams. I ripped two pieces (killing one circular saw) and glued and
screwed the mast with Weldwood plastic glue and temporary sheetrock
screws. I finished by band-sawing the taper and router-rounding the
corners, producing a rigid and strong but heavy spar. Scraps built a
strong mast partners."
here:
http://www.carlsondesign.com/projects.html#Micro
Jason
> So, has anyone experimented with masts made of this material?The only design for ply in a mast that I can remember was from Sam
Rable (Boatbuilding in Your Own Backyard). That was a long time ago,
perhaps 50 years. In his case, conventional ply, there would have to
be some allowance for half the plies running in the wrong direction.
He used 2 staves of ply and 2 staves of natural timber to avoid a
ply-to-ply joint. I'm not sure how good a joint you can get between
two staves of laminated veneers. I'm also worried about internal
voids since the "manufactured lumber" that I've seen has all looked
pretty shaggy. Finally, I wonder about getting a fair finish on the
exterior.
But I don't say it's impossible.
Peter
Sounds like these could be just the ticket for the t-section booms and
gaffs on the I60.
Speaking of, I've spoken with Phil recently. Work continues on the I60;
we're getting closer!
YIBB,
David
gaffs on the I60.
Speaking of, I've spoken with Phil recently. Work continues on the I60;
we're getting closer!
YIBB,
David
On Thursday, August 12, 2004, at 02:39 PM, David wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
> wrote:
>> versalam update. I boiled a chunk for about three hours last night
>> and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
>> coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
>> at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
>> through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
>> hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
>> 22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
>> stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
>> guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
>> scarfs up to 40' !
>> Jason
> **************************
>
> Hi Jason,
> Interesting concept. I'd want to do more research. It's made by Boise
> Cascade IIRC so there ought to be some online info available. Then I'd
> talk to their tech people to get their thoughts on some issues. First,
> would it hold up for exterior/marine use? I know the glue is called
> "waterproof", but what is the exact spec? Second, the waxy coating
> worries me for glueing & finishing. Third, I know firsthand that this
> stuff is stiff & heavy. Exactly how does it compare to CVG fir or
> clear spruce? I think my supplier told me once that it was available
> up to 60 foot long (maybe longer, it's been a while). That seems like
> nifty feature. As I recall, there is a bit of a price premium to be
> paid.
> Regarding the issue of it being plywood. I guess technically it is.
> But there are a large variety of plywoods. What most of us think of as
> "plywood" is Veneer Core softwood or hardwood plywood. It is layed up
> with an uneven number of plies, with the grain direction alternating
> (perpendicular), and the face grain running the long way. Versalam is
> a type that is called "laminated veneer lumber". The number of plies
> IIRC can be even or uneven. The grain runs all parallel, just like a
> stick of lumber.
> So, has anyone experimented with masts made of this material? I'm
> going to be building spars for the Goat Island Skiff (by Micheal
> Storer) that we're working on - so I'd be interested.
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, and the
> intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
Hi Jason,
Interesting concept. I'd want to do more research. It's made by Boise
Cascade IIRC so there ought to be some online info available. Then I'd
talk to their tech people to get their thoughts on some issues. First,
would it hold up for exterior/marine use? I know the glue is called
"waterproof", but what is the exact spec? Second, the waxy coating
worries me for glueing & finishing. Third, I know firsthand that this
stuff is stiff & heavy. Exactly how does it compare to CVG fir or
clear spruce? I think my supplier told me once that it was available
up to 60 foot long (maybe longer, it's been a while). That seems like
nifty feature. As I recall, there is a bit of a price premium to be paid.
Regarding the issue of it being plywood. I guess technically it is.
But there are a large variety of plywoods. What most of us think of as
"plywood" is Veneer Core softwood or hardwood plywood. It is layed up
with an uneven number of plies, with the grain direction alternating
(perpendicular), and the face grain running the long way. Versalam is
a type that is called "laminated veneer lumber". The number of plies
IIRC can be even or uneven. The grain runs all parallel, just like a
stick of lumber.
So, has anyone experimented with masts made of this material? I'm
going to be building spars for the Goat Island Skiff (by Micheal
Storer) that we're working on - so I'd be interested.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, and the
intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
> versalam update. I boiled a chunk for about three hours last night**************************
> and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
> coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
> at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
> through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
> hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
> 22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
> stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
> guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
> scarfs up to 40' !
> Jason
Hi Jason,
Interesting concept. I'd want to do more research. It's made by Boise
Cascade IIRC so there ought to be some online info available. Then I'd
talk to their tech people to get their thoughts on some issues. First,
would it hold up for exterior/marine use? I know the glue is called
"waterproof", but what is the exact spec? Second, the waxy coating
worries me for glueing & finishing. Third, I know firsthand that this
stuff is stiff & heavy. Exactly how does it compare to CVG fir or
clear spruce? I think my supplier told me once that it was available
up to 60 foot long (maybe longer, it's been a while). That seems like
nifty feature. As I recall, there is a bit of a price premium to be paid.
Regarding the issue of it being plywood. I guess technically it is.
But there are a large variety of plywoods. What most of us think of as
"plywood" is Veneer Core softwood or hardwood plywood. It is layed up
with an uneven number of plies, with the grain direction alternating
(perpendicular), and the face grain running the long way. Versalam is
a type that is called "laminated veneer lumber". The number of plies
IIRC can be even or uneven. The grain runs all parallel, just like a
stick of lumber.
So, has anyone experimented with masts made of this material? I'm
going to be building spars for the Goat Island Skiff (by Micheal
Storer) that we're working on - so I'd be interested.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, and the
intelligent are full of doubt" -- Bertrand Russell
Hi Jason, I'm no structural maven but I think I would question your
conclusion about Versalam being "stronger than all but the clearest
and tightet grained woods". You describe Versalam as "plywood". The
alternate laminations of plywood have much less resistence to bending
compared to the laminations with the grain running the length. You
would have to make up for that somehow which would add to the cross
section and to the weight. Dealing with the wax coating seems like a
lot of fuss for little if any benefit.
Bob Chamberland
conclusion about Versalam being "stronger than all but the clearest
and tightet grained woods". You describe Versalam as "plywood". The
alternate laminations of plywood have much less resistence to bending
compared to the laminations with the grain running the length. You
would have to make up for that somehow which would add to the cross
section and to the weight. Dealing with the wax coating seems like a
lot of fuss for little if any benefit.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
> versalam update. I boiled a chunk for about three hours last night
> and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
> coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
> at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
> through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
> hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
> 22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
> stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
> guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
> scarfs up to 40' !
> Jason
versalam update. I boiled a chunk for about three hours last night
and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
scarfs up to 40' !
Jason
and then dried it.......no delamination the glue held. The waxy
coating could be planed off by running a powerplane down each side
at 5/64" or less that would clear the wax for epoxy without cutting
through the outer plies. I calculated volume and weight from the
hunk i had...it would be ...66lbs. for a hollow square mast 4.5" x
22' mast with a one inch hollow....I have to guess the stuff is
stronger than all but the clearest and tightest grained woods. I
guess it's a bit heavier than laminating boards up but still no
scarfs up to 40' !
Jason
Versalam/Microlam (and other similar engineered beams) have become a
builder's standard in the Tolman Skiff community. They are used, for the
most part, in stringers for the hull. I understand that they have a waxy
coating that is nearly impossible to remove well enough to take epoxy or
varnish.
builder's standard in the Tolman Skiff community. They are used, for the
most part, in stringers for the hull. I understand that they have a waxy
coating that is nearly impossible to remove well enough to take epoxy or
varnish.
I was wandering the lumberyard today and found some versalam beams
way out back. It's doug fir exterior plywood beams......comes in
legnth up to 60'. 1.75" thich and in a variety of widths. Could this
be laminated into a scarfless mast. The guy gave me a piece to boil
up to see how it holds up......he was curious as some of the beams
have been left uncovered for over a year and it looked fine to me.
I'll report back later on the weight and waterproofness of the glue
later.
Seems like you could make a quick and beefy big mast in no time with
this stuff. Anyone done this?
Jason Stancil
way out back. It's doug fir exterior plywood beams......comes in
legnth up to 60'. 1.75" thich and in a variety of widths. Could this
be laminated into a scarfless mast. The guy gave me a piece to boil
up to see how it holds up......he was curious as some of the beams
have been left uncovered for over a year and it looked fine to me.
I'll report back later on the weight and waterproofness of the glue
later.
Seems like you could make a quick and beefy big mast in no time with
this stuff. Anyone done this?
Jason Stancil