Dugong was Re: Birdwatcher v Camper 640
Dovekie mods are listed in the Hensnest group files section. Many
members of the Hensnest are members of the Shallow Water Sailors, a
group originally consisting of Dovekie owners, where now Hens are
popular as well.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hensnest/files/
http://shallowwatersailor.us/
After hull #59 Dovekies are equipped with a Jiffy reefing system.
After hull #75 have a bow centerboard
After #84 are equipped with the larger sail (143 sq/ft vs. 128 sq/ft)
After #85 were equipped with wider leeboards.
I wish my Dovekie had the wider leeboards, although they don't look
as cool. The most annoying thing is catching powerboats wakes to the
side of the boat, which causes it to slip sidways. I think it is
properly called sway. Very nauseous motion.
Paul
members of the Hensnest are members of the Shallow Water Sailors, a
group originally consisting of Dovekie owners, where now Hens are
popular as well.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hensnest/files/
http://shallowwatersailor.us/
After hull #59 Dovekies are equipped with a Jiffy reefing system.
After hull #75 have a bow centerboard
After #84 are equipped with the larger sail (143 sq/ft vs. 128 sq/ft)
After #85 were equipped with wider leeboards.
I wish my Dovekie had the wider leeboards, although they don't look
as cool. The most annoying thing is catching powerboats wakes to the
side of the boat, which causes it to slip sidways. I think it is
properly called sway. Very nauseous motion.
Paul
> It's worth noting that Peter Duff thought that there were enoughand
> problems with the Dovekie in the original configuration that he
> almost have up on it. He instituted a little development program
> a series of changes instead. I don't remember them all, but they
> included a change in leeboards (from 1 to 2?) and a small bow
> centerboard. One of the big problems was dissatisfaction with the
> original reefing scheme.
> Dugong seem so much like a Dovekie [which is reportedIt's worth noting that Peter Duff thought that there were enough
> as a success], that I wonder about what differences cause
> the trouble with Dugong?
problems with the Dovekie in the original configuration that he
almost have up on it. He instituted a little development program and
a series of changes instead. I don't remember them all, but they
included a change in leeboards (from 1 to 2?) and a small bow
centerboard. One of the big problems was dissatisfaction with the
original reefing scheme.
Now Bolger used the prototype for a year without feeling the need
for all the changes, which must say something about something.
Peter
> complained about how long it took, and Bolger responded that theDugong seem so much like a Dovekie [which is reported
> times taken, examine on a per task basis, suggested that the
> builders were painstakingly slow. Who's to know?
as a success], that I wonder about what differences cause
the trouble with Dugong?
'between the lines' Bolger politely implies that the Little's
carry more weight on the boat than he envisioned
for a 26 foot(!) 1000lb bare weight rowboat.
Here is a cut and paste of Bolger's comments
about Ida Little's Dugong.
=================quoted text below========
Phil Bolger Comments
A boomless spritsail needs very careful
location of sheet blocks to draw well and
even with optimum sheet leads does not
draw well running off the wind, I hope
they will put the boom where they can get
it back, later, when they get easier with
the rest of the rig. But the point that it can
be left off at times is worth making as is
use of a trysail for shifting anchorage.
The times and costs listed are some-
what horrifying, and I would scream like a
banshee if a professional working at my
expense listed 90 hours for lofting and 21
to paint the name, to just take the begin-
ning and the end. I was billed for about
3,000 hours on Resolution of nearly
twice the length and more than ten times
the weight. She was the quickest and
sloppiest job I could talk Brad Story into
producing. Dugong should be a Rolls-
Royce among boats.
The attitude indicated by their equip-
ment listing delights me. We will be aus-
tere and independent, and they are. Buy
by all the gods we'll have this, that and the
tape deck, and they do. The weight of a
ton mentioned is amazingly small (though
it was more than I meant the boat to carry
and I'd have worried if I'd known she
would have to) and suggests to me that
they don't have anything they don't
really want and use frequently. That is
something worth aiming for.
> Any pictures of Ida's boatThere was enough controversy over this boat to make anyone think
> anywhere? Anyone else ever build one?
twice. A lot of time was spent building it. The builders (Ida et al)
complained about how long it took, and Bolger responded that the
times taken, examine on a per task basis, suggested that the
builders were painstakingly slow. Who's to know?
Once the boat was built, the sailers (Ida et al) didn't like the rig
and had trouble getting the boat to sail well. I don't remember in
detail how much was difficulty in getting the sail to set well, and
how much was not enough sail area. I think Bolger expected a greater
reliance on human power. A jib was added.
Eventually, they sailed the boat a pretty long way, and for a fairly
long time, so designer, builders and sailors all get fair credit,
but it was not all happiness, all the time.
My take on projects like this is that when you depart from the
beaten track, you depart from what has worked the best for the most
people over the most years. Some aspects of the project may be more
difficult than would be expected in something more conventional AND
NOT ONLY THE ONES YOU ANTICIPATE.
Peter
> Hey, where did this design come from? First time I ever heard of it....and, I just noticed, Dugong is featured in Chapter 8
> It sure does look like a Dovekie. Any pictures of Ida's boat
> anywhere? Anyone else ever build one?
>Paul
of Bolger's book _Different Boats_.
Jason,
Got it. Thanks. No wait on signup.
Bill
Got it. Thanks. No wait on signup.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Stancil
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: rigs of favour, new files was Birdwatcher v Camper 640
>
> For us who are new to this server, what is the website URL for
the "files section of bolger 4 photos"? I have also seen "Bolger3"
written somewhere, as well. I couldn't locate anything like that,
either. Thanks.
Here you go:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4photos/files/
It's the last three files on that page. I guess you have to join but
i don't beleive you have to wait for approval.
Jason
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>the "files section of bolger 4 photos"? I have also seen "Bolger3"
> For us who are new to this server, what is the website URL for
written somewhere, as well. I couldn't locate anything like that,
either. Thanks.
Here you go:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4photos/files/
It's the last three files on that page. I guess you have to join but
i don't beleive you have to wait for approval.
Jason
Jason,
For us who are new to this server, what is the website URL for the "files section of bolger 4 photos"? I have also seen "Bolger3" written somewhere, as well. I couldn't locate anything like that, either. Thanks.
Hope your search for the "right sail" for your Navigator is going well.
Bill Deane
For us who are new to this server, what is the website URL for the "files section of bolger 4 photos"? I have also seen "Bolger3" written somewhere, as well. I couldn't locate anything like that, either. Thanks.
Hope your search for the "right sail" for your Navigator is going well.
Bill Deane
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Stancil
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: [bolger] rigs of favour, new files was Birdwatcher v Camper 640
> I've often wondered about the practicability of the lateen,
lugsail
> or spritsail. It seems to me that, by the end of the era of sail,
> they had just about all been abandoned in favour of the gaff rig,
> because it is so much handier than the others.
I posted three new jpegs in the files section of bolger 4 photos. An
old article which tests the sprit, gaff, lateen and bermudian
against one another.
According to this article....and i've seen contrary.
1. sprit
2. gaff
3. bermudian
4. lateen
alas the didn't test the lug.
I think many rigs came and went based on the local need......the NC
sharpies switched from sprits to gaff when the fishing methods
changed and they needed a different rig for dragging the bottom.
Jason
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>why don't you ...hurry up with those sea trials ;)Season's tickets to the baseball games has eaten up
> Jason
most of my 'boat time', which should change come
October.
I think the biggest reason for the Chinese Gaff rig
on the Micro Navigator is that (unlike most any other
rig) the Chinese Gaff rig is fully reefable from inside the
cabin.
The Micro Navigator has no cockpit and very little deck.
PB&F oversized the main sail so that it still will work
in light air, intending it to be sailed partially reefed
most of the time. Also, there is no changing sails
like with a sloop.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
traditional gaff as being better all around small boat sail than
than a low aspect bermudian.
Could it sail much dif.than derek's micro gaffer? I guess there is
alot more windage on the navigator.............why don't you and Don
B hurry up with those sea trials ;)
Jason
> > I just thought it was... diff. from conventional thinkingI was refering to the article which points to the sprit and
> > jason
>
> It makes me smile to hear that you view the
> Chinese Gaff Rig on a Micro Navigator to be
> 'conventional thinking', being as one has never
> yet been completed or sailed. <smile>
traditional gaff as being better all around small boat sail than
than a low aspect bermudian.
Could it sail much dif.than derek's micro gaffer? I guess there is
alot more windage on the navigator.............why don't you and Don
B hurry up with those sea trials ;)
Jason
> I just thought it was... diff. from conventional thinkingIt makes me smile to hear that you view the
> jason
Chinese Gaff Rig on a Micro Navigator to be
'conventional thinking', being as one has never
yet been completed or sailed. <smile>
That is a very handy looking rig all round.
tonight..........up against the forward bulkhead with a 5 degree
rake for the lug sail. Yard should center 40% back from the mast and
the mast with the mast head just aft of center of forward hatch(my
hatch is about 1 or 2" further forwad than the plans......i screwed
up something).
Jason
> Must give you some hope for your Navigator rig Jason?It's too late for prudence now. I started building the tabernacle
> DonB
>
tonight..........up against the forward bulkhead with a 5 degree
rake for the lug sail. Yard should center 40% back from the mast and
the mast with the mast head just aft of center of forward hatch(my
hatch is about 1 or 2" further forwad than the plans......i screwed
up something).
Jason
>of
> But I said "handier" because I was thinking more about convenience
> use, rather than speed or windward ability.I know i just thought it was interesting and diff. from conventional
thinking.
handier is why my navigator is now a lugger.........i'm lazy
jason
Sorry to hear Camper did not work out for you, and you make some good
points and useful ideas to fix them John.
I wonder if the wood rails were intended for small children to
coralled in, and could be left out if not needed?
Bolger usually replies promptly. Once he forgot to reply to me
regarding some plan information shortcomings, and a 2nd fax got an
instant reply and apology.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
wrote:
that attractive. For example:
the rails flair at the same angle as the hull sides, getting on and
off the boat promises to be a challenge.
top, and around the mast to get to the fore deck. It is easy to
imagine a scenario where you lose your ballance, grab the mast, and
pull the boat over.
dragging. I for one, am not that skinny.
wind. The boom rises, the gaff falls off, and you get rhythmic
rolling. Camper doesn't have room for a vang.
the front of the cabin. It's been a couple of months and I've had no
answer, so I assume they were not receptive....
points and useful ideas to fix them John.
I wonder if the wood rails were intended for small children to
coralled in, and could be left out if not needed?
Bolger usually replies promptly. Once he forgot to reply to me
regarding some plan information shortcomings, and a 2nd fax got an
instant reply and apology.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
wrote:
> I ordered a set of Camper plans seven years ago. I think Camper isa good basic idea which has been fancied up to the point it is not all
that attractive. For example:
> --The rails use at least 2 sheets of 1/2 " ply and add 100 lbs tothe weight (up above the deck where you don't really need it). Since
the rails flair at the same angle as the hull sides, getting on and
off the boat promises to be a challenge.
> --The center line mast makes getting forward to deal with the anchora major problem. You have to step up through the slot, over the cabin
top, and around the mast to get to the fore deck. It is easy to
imagine a scenario where you lose your ballance, grab the mast, and
pull the boat over.
> --With the mast lowered, there is about 11 " to squeeze between themast and the slot coaming if you need to tend an anchor that's
dragging. I for one, am not that skinny.
> --A gaff rigged sail is pretty and can be fun to play with, but inmy opinion, a gaff sail without a vang is a problem when sailing down
wind. The boom rises, the gaff falls off, and you get rhythmic
rolling. Camper doesn't have room for a vang.
>replace the gaff with a balanced lug and offset mast, and opening up
> I wrote to PB&F suggesting modifications to eliminate the rails,
the front of the cabin. It's been a couple of months and I've had no
answer, so I assume they were not receptive....
>stern.
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dbaldnz
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:11 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Birdwatcher v Camper 640
>
>
> I am think it rather strange that the Camper#640 has not found more
> favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
> The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher which
> seem to exercise several minds about how to overcome them. She has a
> stern which allows an outboard, a similar viewing cabin, similar size,
> and I feel sure she would be quite a bit quicker. Bolger himself says
> the Birdwatcher hull form is slow. The Camper would have much more
> power and be able to carry her sail in a breeze with the transom
> A more able boat in most respects I would have thought; perhapsposts
> designed as a development of Birdwatcher? Someone should build one.
> DonB
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups LinksService.
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good one Nels. That is a very handy looking rig all round.
Must give you some hope for your Navigator rig Jason?
DonB
Must give you some hope for your Navigator rig Jason?
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
> wrote:
> > This reminds me: I've drawn an alternate 165 sq. ft. balanced lug
> rig for
> > Birdwatcher
>
> Here is one here:
>
>http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/15oct03.htm
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/15oct03.htm
wrote:
> This reminds me: I've drawn an alternate 165 sq. ft. balanced lugrig for
> BirdwatcherHere is one here:
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/15oct03.htm
> Hey, where did this design come from? First time I ever heard of it.There was an article in Small Boat Journal
> It sure does look like a Dovekie. Any pictures of Ida's boat
> anywhere? Anyone else ever build one?
>Paul
Aug/Sept 1981 describing Ida Little's boat.
Bolger wrote a couple paragraphs, mostly
describing how he felt it had cost them
too much to build. Words to the effect that
it cost half as much as Resolution, but that
Resolution was ten times bigger.
I should remind anyone with recent interest in Birdwatcher that I
have John Craig's Junk Rig for Birdwatcher plans on my poorly
organized website:
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/JunkRig.html
Paul
have John Craig's Junk Rig for Birdwatcher plans on my poorly
organized website:
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/JunkRig.html
Paul
> We've been taught that, for rigs of the same area, the bermudianrig
> would have won.
Hey, where did this design come from? First time I ever heard of it.
It sure does look like a Dovekie. Any pictures of Ida's boat
anywhere? Anyone else ever build one?
Thanks,
Paul
It sure does look like a Dovekie. Any pictures of Ida's boat
anywhere? Anyone else ever build one?
Thanks,
Paul
> Another alternative to the 23' 6" Birdwatcher would
> be the 26' 0" Dugong
> Dugong is actually more like a home buildable Dovekie.
>http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/dugong.gif
I ordered a set of Camper plans seven years ago. I think Camper is a good basic idea which has been fancied up to the point it is not all that attractive. For example:
--The rails use at least 2 sheets of 1/2 " ply and add 100 lbs to the weight (up above the deck where you don't really need it). Since the rails flair at the same angle as the hull sides, getting on and off the boat promises to be a challenge.
--The center line mast makes getting forward to deal with the anchor a major problem. You have to step up through the slot, over the cabin top, and around the mast to get to the fore deck. It is easy to imagine a scenario where you lose your ballance, grab the mast, and pull the boat over.
--With the mast lowered, there is about 11 " to squeeze between the mast and the slot coaming if you need to tend an anchor that's dragging. I for one, am not that skinny.
--A gaff rigged sail is pretty and can be fun to play with, but in my opinion, a gaff sail without a vang is a problem when sailing down wind. The boom rises, the gaff falls off, and you get rhythmic rolling. Camper doesn't have room for a vang.
I wrote to PB&F suggesting modifications to eliminate the rails, replace the gaff with a balanced lug and offset mast, and opening up the front of the cabin. It's been a couple of months and I've had no answer, so I assume they were not receptive....
John T
--The rails use at least 2 sheets of 1/2 " ply and add 100 lbs to the weight (up above the deck where you don't really need it). Since the rails flair at the same angle as the hull sides, getting on and off the boat promises to be a challenge.
--The center line mast makes getting forward to deal with the anchor a major problem. You have to step up through the slot, over the cabin top, and around the mast to get to the fore deck. It is easy to imagine a scenario where you lose your ballance, grab the mast, and pull the boat over.
--With the mast lowered, there is about 11 " to squeeze between the mast and the slot coaming if you need to tend an anchor that's dragging. I for one, am not that skinny.
--A gaff rigged sail is pretty and can be fun to play with, but in my opinion, a gaff sail without a vang is a problem when sailing down wind. The boom rises, the gaff falls off, and you get rhythmic rolling. Camper doesn't have room for a vang.
I wrote to PB&F suggesting modifications to eliminate the rails, replace the gaff with a balanced lug and offset mast, and opening up the front of the cabin. It's been a couple of months and I've had no answer, so I assume they were not receptive....
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: dbaldnz
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:11 AM
Subject: [bolger] Birdwatcher v Camper 640
I am think it rather strange that the Camper#640 has not found more
favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher which
seem to exercise several minds about how to overcome them. She has a
stern which allows an outboard, a similar viewing cabin, similar size,
and I feel sure she would be quite a bit quicker. Bolger himself says
the Birdwatcher hull form is slow. The Camper would have much more
power and be able to carry her sail in a breeze with the transom stern.
A more able boat in most respects I would have thought; perhaps
designed as a development of Birdwatcher? Someone should build one.
DonB
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A very interesting article, Jason, and the results quite surprising.
We've been taught that, for rigs of the same area, the bermudian rig
would have won.
But I said "handier" because I was thinking more about convenience of
use, rather than speed or windward ability. In larger open-water
boats, lateen or sprit rigs become very difficult to handle unless
there is a large crew. They kept on being used on the Thames, the
Nile, the Norfolk Broads and Lake Geneva because there was little or
no wave action in these waters.
In smaller sizes, this becomes less important and other features more
important e.g. being able to take the rig down and stow it inside the
hull.
I'm sure PCB has taken all this into account when deciding which rig
to use on which design.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
We've been taught that, for rigs of the same area, the bermudian rig
would have won.
But I said "handier" because I was thinking more about convenience of
use, rather than speed or windward ability. In larger open-water
boats, lateen or sprit rigs become very difficult to handle unless
there is a large crew. They kept on being used on the Thames, the
Nile, the Norfolk Broads and Lake Geneva because there was little or
no wave action in these waters.
In smaller sizes, this becomes less important and other features more
important e.g. being able to take the rig down and stow it inside the
hull.
I'm sure PCB has taken all this into account when deciding which rig
to use on which design.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> I posted three new jpegs in the files section of bolger 4 photos.An old article which tests the sprit, gaff, lateen and bermudian
> against one another.
> I've often wondered about the practicability of the lateen,lugsail
> or spritsail. It seems to me that, by the end of the era of sail,I posted three new jpegs in the files section of bolger 4 photos. An
> they had just about all been abandoned in favour of the gaff rig,
> because it is so much handier than the others.
old article which tests the sprit, gaff, lateen and bermudian
against one another.
According to this article....and i've seen contrary.
1. sprit
2. gaff
3. bermudian
4. lateen
alas the didn't test the lug.
I think many rigs came and went based on the local need......the NC
sharpies switched from sprits to gaff when the fishing methods
changed and they needed a different rig for dragging the bottom.
Jason
This reminds me: I've drawn an alternate 165 sq. ft. balanced lug rig for
Birdwatcher out of my perception that original rig is too small for our
summertime light airs. I don't know if the extra area would really be
necessary, but the lug would save something like 7-8' off the mast and be
easier to reef and dowse in an emergency. If I were to build, I'd certainly
give serious consideration to the lug sail.
JB
Birdwatcher out of my perception that original rig is too small for our
summertime light airs. I don't know if the extra area would really be
necessary, but the lug would save something like 7-8' off the mast and be
easier to reef and dowse in an emergency. If I were to build, I'd certainly
give serious consideration to the lug sail.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Birdwatcher v Camper 640
> Interesting that this recent design uses a conventional gaff rig.
> I've often wondered about the practicability of the lateen, lugsail
> or spritsail. It seems to me that, by the end of the era of sail,
> they had just about all been abandoned in favour of the gaff rig,
> because it is so much handier than the others.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> > I am think it rather strange that the Camper#640 has not found more
> > favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
> > The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher...
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Interesting that this recent design uses a conventional gaff rig.
I've often wondered about the practicability of the lateen, lugsail
or spritsail. It seems to me that, by the end of the era of sail,
they had just about all been abandoned in favour of the gaff rig,
because it is so much handier than the others.
Howard
I've often wondered about the practicability of the lateen, lugsail
or spritsail. It seems to me that, by the end of the era of sail,
they had just about all been abandoned in favour of the gaff rig,
because it is so much handier than the others.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> I am think it rather strange that the Camper#640 has not found more
> favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
> The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher...
Cold molding is pretty expensive. The home builder could probably strip
plank Dugong, but the fastest route by far would be glued lap.
As for #640 versus BW, I'll take BW any day. BW has several 'rooms' that
help spread the crew out some. Also I'd prefer the unfettered access fore
and aft on BW.
There are couple of things about #640 that I don't understand, such as how
do you tend an anchor at the bow without having to climb over the house?
Big drawback to BW is that it can't be very easy to swim off of. But that's
it as far as I'm concerned.
plank Dugong, but the fastest route by far would be glued lap.
As for #640 versus BW, I'll take BW any day. BW has several 'rooms' that
help spread the crew out some. Also I'd prefer the unfettered access fore
and aft on BW.
There are couple of things about #640 that I don't understand, such as how
do you tend an anchor at the bow without having to climb over the house?
Big drawback to BW is that it can't be very easy to swim off of. But that's
it as far as I'm concerned.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Birdwatcher v Camper 640
> Another alternative to the 23' 6" Birdwatcher would
> be the 26' 0" Dugong, [which doesn't have the
> slot top or the windows], but it does have the
> qualities of being simple, beachable, light weight,
> and has oar auxilary power. Dugong is actually
> more like a home buildable Dovekie.
>
> Birdwatcher was originally designed for the same
> purpose, as a home-buildable alternative to Dovekie.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/dugong.gif
>
> I find the 'keel plank' of Dugong to be fascinating,
> made of edge laminated 1 1/2 strips of wood.
> The hull is laminated 'cold molded' strips of veneer
> on stringers on plywood frames. Ida Little owned it
> and it was built to 'gold plater' standards. I wonder
> how long one could be built to 'quick and dirty'
> standards?
>
Another alternative to the 23' 6" Birdwatcher would
be the 26' 0" Dugong, [which doesn't have the
slot top or the windows], but it does have the
qualities of being simple, beachable, light weight,
and has oar auxilary power. Dugong is actually
more like a home buildable Dovekie.
Birdwatcher was originally designed for the same
purpose, as a home-buildable alternative to Dovekie.
http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/dugong.gif
I find the 'keel plank' of Dugong to be fascinating,
made of edge laminated 1 1/2 strips of wood.
The hull is laminated 'cold molded' strips of veneer
on stringers on plywood frames. Ida Little owned it
and it was built to 'gold plater' standards. I wonder
how long one could be built to 'quick and dirty'
standards?
be the 26' 0" Dugong, [which doesn't have the
slot top or the windows], but it does have the
qualities of being simple, beachable, light weight,
and has oar auxilary power. Dugong is actually
more like a home buildable Dovekie.
Birdwatcher was originally designed for the same
purpose, as a home-buildable alternative to Dovekie.
http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/dugong.gif
I find the 'keel plank' of Dugong to be fascinating,
made of edge laminated 1 1/2 strips of wood.
The hull is laminated 'cold molded' strips of veneer
on stringers on plywood frames. Ida Little owned it
and it was built to 'gold plater' standards. I wonder
how long one could be built to 'quick and dirty'
standards?
dbaldnz wrote:
my car, too.
> The Camper#640...would be easier to tow behind
my car, too.
I am think it rather strange that the Camper#640 has not found more
favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher which
seem to exercise several minds about how to overcome them. She has a
stern which allows an outboard, a similar viewing cabin, similar size,
and I feel sure she would be quite a bit quicker. Bolger himself says
the Birdwatcher hull form is slow. The Camper would have much more
power and be able to carry her sail in a breeze with the transom stern.
A more able boat in most respects I would have thought; perhaps
designed as a development of Birdwatcher? Someone should build one.
DonB
favour; I have never heard of one built. (Bolger3, files).
The Camper#640 seems to address the drawbacks of Birdwatcher which
seem to exercise several minds about how to overcome them. She has a
stern which allows an outboard, a similar viewing cabin, similar size,
and I feel sure she would be quite a bit quicker. Bolger himself says
the Birdwatcher hull form is slow. The Camper would have much more
power and be able to carry her sail in a breeze with the transom stern.
A more able boat in most respects I would have thought; perhaps
designed as a development of Birdwatcher? Someone should build one.
DonB