Re: Laminated Styrofoam [was] Bantam 20/24 - Prefab the Hulls?
There is a variant of 3M 77 that doesn't eat foam. Not sure if it's
still made. But the stuff creeps. Epoxy can be extended with
microballoons. I'd want to test anything else to see if it creeps,
especially something like roofing tar.. I suspect the Elmers could take
a long time to dry out trying to evaporate through a plywood glue line.
Urethane of some type might work, but it ain't cheap. Epoxy for decks
might want to be a higher temperature type unless the decks were very
light colored. I'm assuming in all this that we're talking about using
the foam for a core, and not just for insulation.
still made. But the stuff creeps. Epoxy can be extended with
microballoons. I'd want to test anything else to see if it creeps,
especially something like roofing tar.. I suspect the Elmers could take
a long time to dry out trying to evaporate through a plywood glue line.
Urethane of some type might work, but it ain't cheap. Epoxy for decks
might want to be a higher temperature type unless the decks were very
light colored. I'm assuming in all this that we're talking about using
the foam for a core, and not just for insulation.
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
>
>
>>> rkamils wrote:
>>> Perhaps the foam could have been glued
>>> together with one of the spray adhesives,
>>
>>
>
>The spray adhesive I used, "3M Super 77" contained
>volatiles that melt expanded polystyrene foam.
>
>This begs the question: Just how do PB&F envision
>the lamination of Styrofoam to plywood?
>...now so common in their recent designs, Birdwatcher, et al.
>
>Epoxy seems like vast overkill, considering the
>intrinsic strength of Styrofoam.
>
>One adhesive that crosses my mind is 'roofing patch',
>AKA "Black Jack", cheap and sticky.
>[Like Geo. Beuhler uses.]
>It could be troweled on, and 'combed' into ridges, like
>they use when glueing tile to a floor.
>
>Or, perhaps, white Elmers, but that is not cheap,
>even when purchased by the gallon.
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> I have used a contact glue to install 'formica' counter
> top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
> Of course, some of the styrofoam they sell at the local
> home-improvment-mega-store has a plastic/mylar film
> on the flat faces, which probably would protect the styrofoam.
>
> > I used contact glue...
> > DonB
the best way to do it if you are going to use "contact" clue, is go to the hardware store and look for waterbased contact glue,it wont attack the foam.. Scott Backen
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Laminated Styrofoam [was] Bantam 20/24 - Prefab the Hulls?
I have used a contact glue to install 'formica' counter
top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
Of course, some of the styrofoam they sell at the local
home-improvment-mega-store has a plastic/mylar film
on the flat faces, which probably would protect the styrofoam.
> I used contact glue...
> DonB
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sold in our local 'home improvement' store there is also a 'caulking gun
cartridge' product made specifically for bonding 'styrofoam' insulation as
used in housebuilding.
cheers
Derek
cartridge' product made specifically for bonding 'styrofoam' insulation as
used in housebuilding.
cheers
Derek
I have used a contact glue to install 'formica' counter
top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
There is a contact cement specifically formulated for styrofoam. It
should say so on the label.
Juan.
top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
There is a contact cement specifically formulated for styrofoam. It
should say so on the label.
Juan.
> John BellPerhaps some similarity, but the Bolger stem is different,
> Look at Diablo, Gypsy, Cartopper, Samuel Clyde, etc.
> I see similarities in them.
made from a solid piece of wood cut on a curve.
Interestingly, in the writeup for Samuel Clyde, Bolger writes:
"If I were designing such a boat now, I would want to fit her
with a box cutwater as in Microtrawler et al."
Look at Diablo, Gypsy, Cartopper, Samuel Clyde, etc. I see similarities in
them.
It's possible one begat the other, but there are only so many things you can
do with developable plywood panels on a two strake hull with a flat bottom.
JB
them.
It's possible one begat the other, but there are only so many things you can
do with developable plywood panels on a two strake hull with a flat bottom.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: [bolger] Toto bow shape versus cutwater
> I was just having random thoughts about the 'signature'
> bow shape of Jim Michalak, which he uses with Frolic2,
> Toto, Roar2, Caprice, Larsboat, Dorado, others?
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/caprice/leinweb4.jpg
>
> I am curious if this is a pure Mickalak invention, and it Phil Bolger has
> ever designed a boat with this bow shape?
>
> Though, it does seem that Bolger uses the cutwater bow, say for instance
> on the upgrade to the Sneakeasy, for the same purpose.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
I was just having random thoughts about the 'signature'
bow shape of Jim Michalak, which he uses with Frolic2,
Toto, Roar2, Caprice, Larsboat, Dorado, others?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/caprice/leinweb4.jpg
I am curious if this is a pure Mickalak invention, and it Phil Bolger has
ever designed a boat with this bow shape?
Though, it does seem that Bolger uses the cutwater bow, say for instance
on the upgrade to the Sneakeasy, for the same purpose.
bow shape of Jim Michalak, which he uses with Frolic2,
Toto, Roar2, Caprice, Larsboat, Dorado, others?
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/caprice/leinweb4.jpg
I am curious if this is a pure Mickalak invention, and it Phil Bolger has
ever designed a boat with this bow shape?
Though, it does seem that Bolger uses the cutwater bow, say for instance
on the upgrade to the Sneakeasy, for the same purpose.
I have used a contact glue to install 'formica' counter
top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
Of course, some of the styrofoam they sell at the local
home-improvment-mega-store has a plastic/mylar film
on the flat faces, which probably would protect the styrofoam.
top laminates, but I would expect that to melt the styrofoam.
Of course, some of the styrofoam they sell at the local
home-improvment-mega-store has a plastic/mylar film
on the flat faces, which probably would protect the styrofoam.
> I used contact glue...
> DonB
I used contact glue...the sort you paint on both surfaces, and when
touch dry you push them together, hopefully in the right location
because there is no second chance.
DonB
touch dry you push them together, hopefully in the right location
because there is no second chance.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > rkamils wrote:
> > Perhaps the foam could have been glued
> > together with one of the spray adhesives,
>
> The spray adhesive I used, "3M Super 77" contained
> volatiles that melt expanded polystyrene foam.
>
> This begs the question: Just how do PB&F envision
> the lamination of Styrofoam to plywood?
> ...now so common in their recent designs, Birdwatcher, et al.
>
> Epoxy seems like vast overkill, considering the
> intrinsic strength of Styrofoam.
>
> One adhesive that crosses my mind is 'roofing patch',
> AKA "Black Jack", cheap and sticky.
> [Like Geo. Beuhler uses.]
> It could be troweled on, and 'combed' into ridges, like
> they use when glueing tile to a floor.
>
> Or, perhaps, white Elmers, but that is not cheap,
> even when purchased by the gallon.
> rkamils wrote:The spray adhesive I used, "3M Super 77" contained
> Perhaps the foam could have been glued
> together with one of the spray adhesives,
volatiles that melt expanded polystyrene foam.
This begs the question: Just how do PB&F envision
the lamination of Styrofoam to plywood?
...now so common in their recent designs, Birdwatcher, et al.
Epoxy seems like vast overkill, considering the
intrinsic strength of Styrofoam.
One adhesive that crosses my mind is 'roofing patch',
AKA "Black Jack", cheap and sticky.
[Like Geo. Beuhler uses.]
It could be troweled on, and 'combed' into ridges, like
they use when glueing tile to a floor.
Or, perhaps, white Elmers, but that is not cheap,
even when purchased by the gallon.
The hulls are built individually. I built both outer floats in my basement
in early spring, and carried them out, with help from a friend, to my garage.
I also built and glassed the panels for the main hull, but did not assemble
them in the basement as the extra weight from the extra length, and 1/2" bottom
might have been a problem. I have a really steep hill from my house to the
garage. All three hulls are then joined with the bridge deck. Also, I found it
took a lot of epoxy, and time, for the added layers of the double bottom.
Perhaps the foam could have been glued together with one of the spray adhesives,
but I did not think of this until I was on my last layer. One should check
with Mr. Bolger on this anyway. Maybe they don't need to glued together at
all.
I had hoped to be done with the complete hull and deck assembly by now, but
lost two months of working time this summer helping my elderly parents out
after my Dad had a heart attack. I never thought I would get it finished this
year anyway, but I still hope to get the hulls joined together before winter
stops work for the year. There is a frost warning out for northern Minnesota
tonight, so who knows?!!
One more thing. Expecting a 1200 LB weight is too low. That is the figure
Bolger expected for the original Bantam 16/20, without the double bottom. All
he stated for the upgraded double bottom was that it would "add several
hundred pounds" and to "check large-prop four strokes" of not more than 25 h.p. That
is for the shorter version. I don't think he recommends more than the 9.9
for the 20/24 as it is built to light. You should ask him.
From chilly Duluth, Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in early spring, and carried them out, with help from a friend, to my garage.
I also built and glassed the panels for the main hull, but did not assemble
them in the basement as the extra weight from the extra length, and 1/2" bottom
might have been a problem. I have a really steep hill from my house to the
garage. All three hulls are then joined with the bridge deck. Also, I found it
took a lot of epoxy, and time, for the added layers of the double bottom.
Perhaps the foam could have been glued together with one of the spray adhesives,
but I did not think of this until I was on my last layer. One should check
with Mr. Bolger on this anyway. Maybe they don't need to glued together at
all.
I had hoped to be done with the complete hull and deck assembly by now, but
lost two months of working time this summer helping my elderly parents out
after my Dad had a heart attack. I never thought I would get it finished this
year anyway, but I still hope to get the hulls joined together before winter
stops work for the year. There is a frost warning out for northern Minnesota
tonight, so who knows?!!
One more thing. Expecting a 1200 LB weight is too low. That is the figure
Bolger expected for the original Bantam 16/20, without the double bottom. All
he stated for the upgraded double bottom was that it would "add several
hundred pounds" and to "check large-prop four strokes" of not more than 25 h.p. That
is for the shorter version. I don't think he recommends more than the 9.9
for the 20/24 as it is built to light. You should ask him.
From chilly Duluth, Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "denisnh" <denisnh@y...> wrote:
on finishing the hulls prior to joining, the centre hull is complete
and side hulls close. I cannot see any impledement to this, however,
I will let you know once I have accomplished it.
If they can be
will plane; I have built mine with the rocker.
solid - depends upon how you will use the boat. The deepened bottom
can be built or not - the plans show it both ways.
Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?
I do not know if the structure is designed for 25 Hp. You may wish
to consult with Mr. Bolger before buying a motor.
> Hi Folks. Well, after much research and deliberation, I've arrivedwith
> at the decision to build the Bantam long version. I'll be going
> the longer cabin. Plans will be ordered this week and I hope tohave
> the three hulls done during the winter.or
>
> The question I have is can the three hulls be built individually,
> are they an integral part of the bridge and all have to be built asI certainly hope so, since that's the way I am building it. I plan
> one assembly? (due to framing requirements and such)
on finishing the hulls prior to joining, the centre hull is complete
and side hulls close. I cannot see any impledement to this, however,
I will let you know once I have accomplished it.
If they can be
> built individually, I should be able to build them in thebasement.
> I'll prefab what other pieces I can and then continue the projectin
> my unheated garage come spring.the
>
> Also, I assume the Bantam long version is a bit different from the
> original 20/24 as far as hull geometry? My understanding is that
> long version now has a rockered hull, and is therefore restrictedto
> displacement speeds? I believe the 20/24 was straight aft andcould
> plane with little power.The rocker is easily built in or left out; I do not know if the 24
will plane; I have built mine with the rocker.
>stout
> Finally, I assume the long version retained the folding cabin,
> deepened bottom for better rough water performance? Bolger admits
> that the structure is "dainty" to keep the vessel light. Is it
> enough for the occasional 4 ft. roller? Haven't seen any weigthabout
> estimates, but my guess would be the long version weighs in at
> 1200 to 1400 pounds assuming decent quality plywood and lightIt is designed with the folding cabin. It will be more work than
> glassing.
solid - depends upon how you will use the boat. The deepened bottom
can be built or not - the plans show it both ways.
Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?
I do not know if the structure is designed for 25 Hp. You may wish
to consult with Mr. Bolger before buying a motor.
>
> If anyone is building Bantam (long or short), or are thinking about
> building one, feel free to send me email to: DenisNH@y... I
> would really like to get some correspondence going with like-minded
> individuals. :-)
>
> By the way, I live in Southern New Hampshire.
>
> Thanks,
> Denis (aka Dennis)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "denisnh" <denisnh@y...> wrote: "I've
arrived at the decision to build the Bantam long version."
Have you seen the pics of John Bartlett's Pelican, a streched Bantam
in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4photos/
yet? There's a cover shot on the homepage and more in an album
named "Pelican" in the photo section.
"My understanding is that the long version now has a rockered hull,
and is therefore restricted to displacement speeds?"
Yes, she's rockered aft, seemed to move out very smartly with a 9.9.
I spent a day onboard Pelican with John last winter and thouroughly
enjoyed it. Very stable, handled largish power boat wakes with
aplomb. The ability to stroll about with your hands in your pockets
was very reassuring.
"I assume the long version retained the folding cabin,"
John's, Fort Myers, FL, has the fully glassed cabin, but it is built
solid, not folding. All seemed to be epoxy bonded together, and the
entire stucture felt very ridgid.
"Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?"
Nope, but a 25 would be overkill. Even heavily loaded a 9.9 should
push it to hull speed. That's all Hans has on the much heavier 22'
Champlain and it moves along fine. Maybe a 15 big foot for extra
oomph in high seas and winds.
Just my feelings from a great day on a stretched bantam.
Bruce Hector
Almost recovered from 3 weeks of Curry, aloos and Paranthas. Just
awaiting the final surgery to stop up the last of the leaks.
arrived at the decision to build the Bantam long version."
Have you seen the pics of John Bartlett's Pelican, a streched Bantam
in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4photos/
yet? There's a cover shot on the homepage and more in an album
named "Pelican" in the photo section.
"My understanding is that the long version now has a rockered hull,
and is therefore restricted to displacement speeds?"
Yes, she's rockered aft, seemed to move out very smartly with a 9.9.
I spent a day onboard Pelican with John last winter and thouroughly
enjoyed it. Very stable, handled largish power boat wakes with
aplomb. The ability to stroll about with your hands in your pockets
was very reassuring.
"I assume the long version retained the folding cabin,"
John's, Fort Myers, FL, has the fully glassed cabin, but it is built
solid, not folding. All seemed to be epoxy bonded together, and the
entire stucture felt very ridgid.
"Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?"
Nope, but a 25 would be overkill. Even heavily loaded a 9.9 should
push it to hull speed. That's all Hans has on the much heavier 22'
Champlain and it moves along fine. Maybe a 15 big foot for extra
oomph in high seas and winds.
Just my feelings from a great day on a stretched bantam.
Bruce Hector
Almost recovered from 3 weeks of Curry, aloos and Paranthas. Just
awaiting the final surgery to stop up the last of the leaks.
Hi Folks. Well, after much research and deliberation, I've arrived
at the decision to build the Bantam long version. I'll be going with
the longer cabin. Plans will be ordered this week and I hope to have
the three hulls done during the winter.
The question I have is can the three hulls be built individually, or
are they an integral part of the bridge and all have to be built as
one assembly? (due to framing requirements and such) If they can be
built individually, I should be able to build them in the basement.
I'll prefab what other pieces I can and then continue the project in
my unheated garage come spring.
Also, I assume the Bantam long version is a bit different from the
original 20/24 as far as hull geometry? My understanding is that the
long version now has a rockered hull, and is therefore restricted to
displacement speeds? I believe the 20/24 was straight aft and could
plane with little power.
Finally, I assume the long version retained the folding cabin,
deepened bottom for better rough water performance? Bolger admits
that the structure is "dainty" to keep the vessel light. Is it stout
enough for the occasional 4 ft. roller? Haven't seen any weigth
estimates, but my guess would be the long version weighs in at about
1200 to 1400 pounds assuming decent quality plywood and light
glassing. Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?
If anyone is building Bantam (long or short), or are thinking about
building one, feel free to send me email to:DenisNH@.... I
would really like to get some correspondence going with like-minded
individuals. :-)
By the way, I live in Southern New Hampshire.
Thanks,
Denis (aka Dennis)
at the decision to build the Bantam long version. I'll be going with
the longer cabin. Plans will be ordered this week and I hope to have
the three hulls done during the winter.
The question I have is can the three hulls be built individually, or
are they an integral part of the bridge and all have to be built as
one assembly? (due to framing requirements and such) If they can be
built individually, I should be able to build them in the basement.
I'll prefab what other pieces I can and then continue the project in
my unheated garage come spring.
Also, I assume the Bantam long version is a bit different from the
original 20/24 as far as hull geometry? My understanding is that the
long version now has a rockered hull, and is therefore restricted to
displacement speeds? I believe the 20/24 was straight aft and could
plane with little power.
Finally, I assume the long version retained the folding cabin,
deepened bottom for better rough water performance? Bolger admits
that the structure is "dainty" to keep the vessel light. Is it stout
enough for the occasional 4 ft. roller? Haven't seen any weigth
estimates, but my guess would be the long version weighs in at about
1200 to 1400 pounds assuming decent quality plywood and light
glassing. Anyone know top speed with a 25hp 4-stroke?
If anyone is building Bantam (long or short), or are thinking about
building one, feel free to send me email to:DenisNH@.... I
would really like to get some correspondence going with like-minded
individuals. :-)
By the way, I live in Southern New Hampshire.
Thanks,
Denis (aka Dennis)