[bolger] Re: Poplar as building wood
> I think the Group should assign you penance of some sort. Perhaps aOuch, my back! No planing boats for me, thank you.
> week in a Boston Whaler while we collectively lounge about in
> Harmonica clones and similar.
I'm trying to get Bolger to work up SBJ #9 into a
real design, but not getting too lucky.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> cottonwood. I was talking about "poplar", not "yellow poplar" whichis
> the same as "tulip poplar" which is as COD above, and others, haveI can direct you to a cite for some guys on a trapping trip along the
> described.
Rio Grande circa 1815-1820, who took hatchets and made dugout canoes
from cottonwood. They didn't plan on using 'em for more than a couple
months of course, but what other tree allows you to make a dugout with
a hatchet? <chuckle> And I'm not sure you have any other choice down
south texas anyway.
> [tulip pop] It is not good spar material, however. xxx lowAgreed, but I bet poplar works, esp if you make it slightly oversize,
> in shock resistance, and low in flexibilty. Douglas fir is really the
> best, I think, for this purpose
on small boats. You can get away with a lot on small boats because
loadings are low in general. The penalty is mainly weight. We needn't
make featherwieght boats an obsession.
As an example of an unusual spar, the notorious John Harris made his
Peero masts from cypress - hollow too - I think they are too bendy, and
they do bend, but they work.
As an aside, you don't want a bendy mast if you use a lugsail, because
mast bend shortens the distance along the luff and causes the sail to
bag when going to windward - the worst possible time. If you can keep
that mast stiff,or you're in moderate airs, a balance lug goes to
windward nicely.
So my inclination is to err on the side of "too fat" for such a mast -
if it's too much, you can shave it down some if you're a tweak.
Investing a lot of time and energy into a fancy spar that's too bendy
is a temptation to "make do" with something you've worked hard on - but
to the detriment of the boat's performance.
> > shantyboats. (Chris, look in your text file of The CabinboatPrimer).
>I think the Group should assign you penance of some sort. Perhaps a
> Alas, I should. Shame on me.
week in a Boston Whaler while we collectively lounge about in Harmonica
clones and similar.
> 2. Tulip Poplar (Lirodendron) - related to Magnolia, not to "poplar" orAlas, COD is right as usual. I checked my wood handbook. Yellow poplar
> cottonwood.
> Actually reasonably durable, and according to the wood books real
> stable when dry.
is different from what is marketed as "poplar" which is typically
cottonwood. I was talking about "poplar", not "yellow poplar" which is
the same as "tulip poplar" which is as COD above, and others, have
described.
It is not good spar material, however. The Wood Handbook lists is as low
in shock resistance, and low in flexibilty. Douglas fir is really the
best, I think, for this purpose (other than Sitka spruce, but if you have
the money for that, why are you on this group?).
> shantyboats. (Chris, look in your text file of The Cabinboat Primer).Alas, I should. Shame on me.
or 12 ft, I think, it was a bear for a one man trailering operation --
after the Great Hurricane of 99, maybe 8 inches dia, intending to carve
out an outrigger float with Mr Drawknife and Mr Grinder.
I'll do this and treat it and paint it up and we'll see what happens.
> I live in Virginia and poplar is a very common forest tree hereaboutsand
> shows up in lumber yards all the time. Clear wood is anything butrare.
>up
> As a boat wood it has two undesirables: low rot resistance and soaks
> water.antifreeze
>
> In the age of West System, helped along by some of Dave Carnell's
> and boric acid preservatives, you might consider the stuff.Not to mention Cuprinol.
1. Much construction grade 2x4 is spruce. You can tell by the weight
and color.
2. Tulip Poplar (Lirodendron) - related to Magnolia, not to "poplar" or
cottonwood.
Actually reasonably durable, and according to the wood books real
stable when dry. I suspect with modern paint etc there is not much
problem with a poplar bit on a boat which is not stored *in* the water
or *acting as a birdbath*.
You need to check the durability rating methodology - in most cases
woods seem to be rated by the gummintfor durability in contact with the
ground, which should not really be an issue with boats. I'd hope anyway
<grin>. So while Locust might rate really highly in durability only a
lunatic would attempt to make a boat from it (heavy, heavy, heavy,
hard, hard, hard). But great for cleats.
...the Forest Products Laboratory of the US gummint is on the Web and
has various "PDF" files of their Wood Handbook for downloading if
anyone cares to compare.
Poplar and sycamore are two traditional woods for dugout canoes as they
are easy to work and grow long and straight near watercourses. Ask your
local Native American.
Poplar has probably gotten a bad rap over the years as it's not a
"yacht wood" and won't last if it's sitting in your local creek or on
your local mudbank without any treatment at all for 3 or 4 or 5 years.
But from a few references I've tracked down it's pretty clear it was
often used in the 1800s for cheap and fast river skiffs and
shantyboats. (Chris, look in your text file of The Cabinboat Primer).
If the boat only had to last a season or two, why not?
Maybe one of these days I'll actually get around to testing some poplar
bits. With some care and treatment why wouldn't poplar parts last as
long as you'd need them to?
Another forgotten wood you might be able to find from a sawmill is
sassafras, which was "once the preferred wood for small skiffs in the
Upper Chesapeake". Probably because it is very durable.
vacuum bags each (bookmatched) plank in light fiberglass, so it's just a
core with great workability. A friend of mine just finished a 15 foot
driftboat using poplar for ribs and logs/wales. It's all epoxy-coated, but
not glassed. I'll probably use some in the interior cabinetry of my Sweet
Caroline minicruiser. It can't be any worse than the lumberyard stuff I'm
using for framing the hull.
Don Hodges
The local marine museam has about half a dozen "Log canoues" built out
of the stuff. Many more than any other type of craft. On most of them
however, all that is left is the logs....Some of these things date back
to the 1600's
They (the poplar logs) don't show much sign of rotting...It looks like
the rest of the boat rotted away from them.
Sometime after the current project, I think I am going to go out back
and knock over a few trees to try a 5-log canoue...But Bolger doesn't
have any plans for those, so that's a different mail list... :)
DGO
I live in Virginia and poplar is a very common forest tree hereabouts and
shows up in lumber yards all the time. Clear wood is anything but rare.
As a boat wood it has two undesirables: low rot resistance and soaks up
water. The clearness and workability are great. Poplar, tulip poplar, is the
name. No relation to European trees, such as Lombardy popl. Locally one
discriminates sharply between heart poplar and sapwood portions. The heart
is the local wood of choice for siding. Not too long ago it was favored for
exterior trim. On the old home place there was some heart poplar siding that
was put up in the 1820s, maybe even in the 1690s, that had furred down very
thin by the time it was removed in the 1970s. Oldtimers claimed it would
soak up paint at uneconomical rates. On houses it was whitewashed. Once it
weathers it has a very furry, silky feel.
In the age of West System, helped along by some of Dave Carnell's antifreeze
and boric acid preservatives, you might consider the stuff.
ED HAILE
>From:Glen_Gibson@...______________________________________________________
>Reply-To:bolger@egroups.com
>To:bolger@egroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Poplar as building wood
>Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:30:50 -0800
>
>
>
>Any thoughts about using Poplar as the main building wood for my Micro,
>including the masts/spars?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Glen
>
>
>
> Balancing performance, cost, durability & workability, what timberSpruce or douglas fir. I like douglas fir a lot, it's relatively
> would the group favour for smallish spar construction with standard
> home-builder tools? Thanks Jeff Gilbert
inexpensive, a pleasure to work, relatively available, and makes a
beautiful sawdust and shaving.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
used it for the chine logs and gun'els on the one sheet skiff. These boats
are only a year old so I can't comment on the durability. However, I used
a mahogany stain on it and it is beautiful. It takes anykind of stain well
and while soft for a hardwood, it is very much harder than spruce. That is
the primary reason I used it on areas that I thought would sustain heavier
wear. That and the fact that it is inexpensive compared to oak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clyde S. Wisner [SMTP:clydewis@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 3:46 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Poplar as building wood
>
> I built a solid mast of poplar for my melonseed and discovered it was
> quite a bit heavier than lumber yard spruce. I made one of spruce which I
> switch from boat to boat, currently set up for brick. Anyway, the poplar
> may become a flag pole. Clyde Wisner
>
>Glen_Gibson@...wrote:
>
> Any thoughts about using Poplar as the main building wood for my
> Micro,
> including the masts/spars? Home Depot in CA has beautiful,
> up to 16' long poplar, at very reasonable prices. Would be nice to
> just hop
> down to HD for some more building wood.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Glen
>
> VITAL STATISTICS: A deciduous hardwood. Other common names are
> yellow poplar
> and tulip poplar. Average height:
> over 100 feet.
> Average trunk diameter: 3 to 6 feet. The
> 1992 National Register of Big Trees
> identifies
> today's largest yellow poplar. It is found in
> Bedford, Virginia and is 146 feet
> tall with a
> canopy of 125 feet spread and a trunk
> circumference of 374 inches. Poplars
> grow from
> southern New England southward to
> Florida and westward to Missouri. It
> is the state
> tree of Indiana and Kentucky.
>
> DESCRIPTION: The yellow poplar grows
> quickly into
> a tall straight tree. It is found
> alone in open, rich, moist soil.
> Because of its
> fast maturity the lumber from poplar is
> lightweight and soft for a hardwood.
> But it is
> strong, durable and seasons well resisting
> warpage once it is dried. Because the
> trunk has
> no limbs or branches, except at the very
> top, the wood has no knots. It is
> straight
> grained and evenly textured making it
> rewarding to work with. It cuts and
> sands well,
> keeps its edge and resists splitting. The
> sapwood is cream color; the heartwood
> is pale
> brown with occasional yellow-green streaks.
> The wood stains well and can easily
> be made to
> resemble walnut or maple. Because it
> takes paint exceptionally well, it is
> often
> painted.
>
> USES: An
> abundant
> and stable wood, poplar
> use
> dates back to
> the East Coast Native
> American
>
> populations. Their long dugout canoes
> were
> carved from the
> trunks of the tall yellow
> poplar.
> Early
> American settlers used it in
>
> furniture and for
> interior applications. It was,
> and
> still is, used
> for boatbuilding. Recently
> poplar
> has been used
> in the manufacture of
> plywood.
> Due to its
> affordability, it was, and still
> is, used
> in a
> multitude of inexpensive wood
> products
> such as
> toys, broom handles, boxes,
> crates,
> baskets,
> food containers, popsicle sticks
> and
> tongue
> depressors. Before they were made
> of metal
> and
> plastic, Venetian blinds were made
> of poplar. Poplar is used as the
> interior
> components of fine furniture and cabinetry.
> Importantly, it has recently become a
>
> satisfactory, fine, hardwood alternative to clear pine
> for interior millwork: built-in
> furniture,
> cabinets, shelving and moldings, including door
> jambs and cornices. Due to the huge
> export market
> for poplar and its increased
> popularity in the domestic market, it
> is less
> available than previously, but the price
> remains very attractive.
>
>
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Glen_Gibson@... wrote:
Any thoughts about using Poplar as the main building wood for my Micro,
including the masts/spars? Home Depot in CA has beautiful,
up to 16' long poplar, at very reasonable prices. Would be nice to just hop
down to HD for some more building wood.
Thanks in advance,
Glen
VITAL STATISTICS: A deciduous hardwood. Other common names are yellow
poplar
and tulip poplar. Average height: over 100 feet.
Average trunk diameter: 3 to 6 feet. The
1992 National Register of Big Trees identifies
today's largest yellow poplar. It is found in
Bedford, Virginia and is 146 feet tall with a
canopy of 125 feet spread and a trunk
circumference of 374 inches. Poplars grow from
southern New England southward to
Florida and westward to Missouri. It is the state
tree of Indiana and Kentucky.
DESCRIPTION: The yellow poplar grows quickly into
a tall straight tree. It is found
alone in open, rich, moist soil. Because of its
fast maturity the lumber from poplar is
lightweight and soft for a hardwood. But it is
strong, durable and seasons well resisting
warpage once it is dried. Because the trunk has
no limbs or branches, except at the very
top, the wood has no knots. It is straight
grained and evenly textured making it
rewarding to work with. It cuts and sands well,
keeps its edge and resists splitting. The
sapwood is cream color; the heartwood is pale
brown with occasional yellow-green streaks.
The wood stains well and can easily be made to
resemble walnut or maple. Because it
takes paint exceptionally well, it is often
painted.
USES: An abundant
and stable wood, poplar
use dates back to
the East Coast Native
American
populations. Their long dugout canoes
were carved from the
trunks of the tall yellow
poplar. Early
American settlers used it in
furniture and for
interior applications. It was,
and still is, used
for boatbuilding. Recently
poplar has been used
in the manufacture of
plywood. Due to its
affordability, it was, and still
is, used in a
multitude of inexpensive wood
products such as
toys, broom handles, boxes,
crates, baskets,
food containers, popsicle sticks
and tongue
depressors. Before they were made
of metal and
plastic, Venetian blinds were made
of poplar. Poplar is used as the interior
components of fine furniture and cabinetry.
Importantly, it has recently become a
satisfactory, fine, hardwood alternative to clear pine
for interior millwork: built-in furniture,
cabinets, shelving and moldings, including door
jambs and cornices. Due to the huge export market
for poplar and its increased
popularity in the domestic market, it is less
available than previously, but the price
remains very attractive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Any thoughts about using Poplar as the main building wood for myDespite reported durability from your report, my references give it a very
> Micro, including the masts/spars? Home Depot in CA has beautiful, up
> to 16' long poplar, at very reasonable prices. Would be nice to just
> hop down to HD for some more building wood.
low rot resistance. I have also heard same based on actual experience.
It is much heavier and more brittle than usual spar materials. I would
not consider using it, not at all.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
including the masts/spars? Home Depot in CA has beautiful,
up to 16' long poplar, at very reasonable prices. Would be nice to just hop
down to HD for some more building wood.
Thanks in advance,
Glen
VITAL STATISTICS: A deciduous hardwood. Other common names are yellow poplar
and tulip poplar. Average height: over 100 feet.
Average trunk diameter: 3 to 6 feet. The
1992 National Register of Big Trees identifies
today's largest yellow poplar. It is found in
Bedford, Virginia and is 146 feet tall with a
canopy of 125 feet spread and a trunk
circumference of 374 inches. Poplars grow from
southern New England southward to
Florida and westward to Missouri. It is the state
tree of Indiana and Kentucky.
DESCRIPTION: The yellow poplar grows quickly into
a tall straight tree. It is found
alone in open, rich, moist soil. Because of its
fast maturity the lumber from poplar is
lightweight and soft for a hardwood. But it is
strong, durable and seasons well resisting
warpage once it is dried. Because the trunk has
no limbs or branches, except at the very
top, the wood has no knots. It is straight
grained and evenly textured making it
rewarding to work with. It cuts and sands well,
keeps its edge and resists splitting. The
sapwood is cream color; the heartwood is pale
brown with occasional yellow-green streaks.
The wood stains well and can easily be made to
resemble walnut or maple. Because it
takes paint exceptionally well, it is often
painted.
USES: An abundant
and stable wood, poplar
use dates back to
the East Coast Native
American
populations. Their long dugout canoes
were carved from the
trunks of the tall yellow
poplar. Early
American settlers used it in
furniture and for
interior applications. It was,
and still is, used
for boatbuilding. Recently
poplar has been used
in the manufacture of
plywood. Due to its
affordability, it was, and still
is, used in a
multitude of inexpensive wood
products such as
toys, broom handles, boxes,
crates, baskets,
food containers, popsicle sticks
and tongue
depressors. Before they were made
of metal and
plastic, Venetian blinds were made
of poplar. Poplar is used as the interior
components of fine furniture and cabinetry.
Importantly, it has recently become a
satisfactory, fine, hardwood alternative to clear pine
for interior millwork: built-in furniture,
cabinets, shelving and moldings, including door
jambs and cornices. Due to the huge export market
for poplar and its increased
popularity in the domestic market, it is less
available than previously, but the price
remains very attractive.
writes, re Poplar for building, especially spars >>>>>
>Despite reported durability from your report, my references give (poplar)experience.
>a very low rot resistance. I have also heard same based on actual
>It is much heavier and more brittle than usual spar materials. I wouldHere in Australia I replaced my Paper
>not consider using it, not at all.
Tiger tillers with spruce, and felt it would be great for spars.
Light, strong, with the right amount of flex (measured by
instinct & ignorance).
Balancing performance, cost, durability & workability,
what timber would the group favour for smallish spar
construction with standard home-builder tools?
Thanks
Jeff Gilbert