Re: Fasteners

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, boblq <boblq@c...> wrote:
> I am planning to build a kayak in the near future. I was thinking of
> one of the Pygmy's but I may instead go the direction of a skin on
> frame craft. I am left wondering if this technique could be scaled,
> perhaps with some change in materials up to larger craft.
>
> Bob

How large do you want? Umiaks of up to 60 feet were built from
driftwood and split walrus skins. Modern reproductions (do a google
image search on umiak and umiaq) tend to be more like a third to half
that, with the same materials as modern skin on frame kayaks.
See any of the articles on Oceanic canoe construction or "sewn" wooden boats.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________

-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
On Sunday 29 August 2004 10:27 am, Will Samson wrote:
> "I am planning to build a kayak in the near future. I was thinking of
> one of the Pygmy's but I may instead go the direction of a skin on
> frame craft. I am left wondering if this technique could be scaled,
> perhaps with some change in materials up to larger craft.
>
> Bob"
>
> You might want to take a look at Robert Morris's "Building Skin-on-Frame
> boats". He explains how to build a variety of kayaks, an open canoe, a
> pram and a sailing dinghy using these techniques. Well worth a look. He
> doesn't do umiaks, but these traditional open boats were sometimes over 30
> feet long and took a whole crowd of people.

I have been subscribed to the baidarka list and have seen
mention of that book before. I guess it is time to get it.

> I built a skin-on-frame baidarka (Aleutian kayak or iqyax) a few years ago
> and it's still going strong. It gets more use than any other boat I ever
> built and yet it was made from reclaimed timber, willow branches and cotton
> duck canvas - total cost under $150. So it's a very economical way of
> building a boat and you're risking very little, in terms of expensive
> materials, by embarking on this course.
>
> Bill

I do realize this is getting to be fairly off topic for the
Bolger group so if I am out of line posting here please
do tell me.

Hmm ... very interesting. I have another motive I will share with
you. I do love boats and construction but I also am married to
a beautiful woman from the Philippines and through my marriage
have acquired a large family of in laws. My wife is one of thirteen
brothers and sisters. In her village we have over fifty nieces and
nephews, the cousins of our own children Alvin and Antonet, who
are 15 and 16. They need work. So I am exploring all kinds of
labor intensive things that they might do which we can turn into
an export business.

The long and short of it is I would love to retire there, build boats
and export them to the developed world. I have been exploring
the wonderful world of small wooden boats with this in mind.

My goal is to make an extended vacation hopefully this Christmas
and to build something down there. Get some real hands on
experience with my family trying this kind of work. I have built
a house there with them previously so I am not naive about
the problems and the opportunities. I know them to be intelligent
and industrious.

One resource that I do need to explore is bamboo. It was used
(Nansen) long ago to build kayaks. Perhaps it is time for a revival.

> PS you might want to look at Harvey Golden's website for pics of huge
> Umiaks etc:
>
>http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/otherprojects/VintageSkinboats.html

Great site. I showed my son the open frame, much of which could
certainly be adapted to bamboo. He just looked at it and said,
"Yeh we could build that."

In deference to the group I would say that the original
Bolger spirit so clearly articulated in BWAOM informs a lot
of what I am doing though the context (the Phillipines) is
different.

Bolger is as much a way of approaching a problem and
life with many wonderful examples of that approach as
it is the specific set of boats.

Bob La Quey
Various engineering nuts at MIT have made human powered vehicles from
aluminum tubing which is carefully machined to fit very tight and then
lashed together with kevlar roving (I think that's the term) and epoxy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
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"I would perhaps go to Bill Samson's group for info as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smallsailboats/"

I'd love to take the credit for this one, but it's Bill Sergeant (not Samson) who does this group.

Bill




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"I am planning to build a kayak in the near future. I was thinking of
one of the Pygmy's but I may instead go the direction of a skin on
frame craft. I am left wondering if this technique could be scaled,
perhaps with some change in materials up to larger craft.

Bob"

You might want to take a look at Robert Morris's "Building Skin-on-Frame boats". He explains how to build a variety of kayaks, an open canoe, a pram and a sailing dinghy using these techniques. Well worth a look. He doesn't do umiaks, but these traditional open boats were sometimes over 30 feet long and took a whole crowd of people.

I built a skin-on-frame baidarka (Aleutian kayak or iqyax) a few years ago and it's still going strong. It gets more use than any other boat I ever built and yet it was made from reclaimed timber, willow branches and cotton duck canvas - total cost under $150. So it's a very economical way of building a boat and you're risking very little, in terms of expensive materials, by embarking on this course.

Bill

PS you might want to look at Harvey Golden's website for pics of huge Umiaks etc:

http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/otherprojects/VintageSkinboats.html





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, boblq <boblq@c...> wrote:
> I am planning to build a kayak in the near future. I was thinking of
> one of the Pygmy's but I may instead go the direction of a skin on
> frame craft. I am left wondering if this technique could be scaled,
> perhaps with some change in materials up to larger craft.
>
> Bob

Hi Bob,

Not really Bolger related, but here is a design, that uses spruce
framing tied together with kevlar roving and epoxy or airplane dope.
(Aerolite?)

http://geodesicairoliteboats.com/boats/robroy14.html

I would perhaps go to Bill Samson's group for info as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smallsailboats/

Good luck, Nels
On Sunday 29 August 2004 12:30 am, Will Samson wrote:
> The way this thread is going, it seems like the logical conclusion is to
> build an umiak, with a lashed frame and fabric skin. No fasteners, no
> glue, just lots of string.
>
> Incidentally, the frames of umiaks and kayaks are usually varnished or
> painted and this helps to stop the lashings from loosening - especially
> with modern slippery materials that don't hold a knot as well as more
> natural fibres.
>
> Bill

I am planning to build a kayak in the near future. I was thinking of
one of the Pygmy's but I may instead go the direction of a skin on
frame craft. I am left wondering if this technique could be scaled,
perhaps with some change in materials up to larger craft.

Bob
> Hmm, thanks for the hints ... a few minutes with Google turned up
>http://www.cuttsandcase.com/patented_method.html

That's the one I was thinking of.

Once upon a time, I got an earful from a fiberglass canoe builder at
a Small Boat Show. He was irked because another builder across the
dock was getting a lot of mileage out of his kevlar reinforced
canoes. The guy's point was that the properties of kevlar did not
match up with the resin the guy was using, and there was no advantage
to the kevlar construction.

I guess I think your idea can work, but it make take some
experimentation to work out the best combination of materials.

PEter
The way this thread is going, it seems like the logical conclusion is to build an umiak, with a lashed frame and fabric skin. No fasteners, no glue, just lots of string.

Incidentally, the frames of umiaks and kayaks are usually varnished or painted and this helps to stop the lashings from loosening - especially with modern slippery materials that don't hold a knot as well as more natural fibres.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Saturday 28 August 2004 07:18 am, pvanderwaart wrote:
> > Instead
> > of metal fasteners I am considering exploring some
> > form of rope or twine liberally doused in epoxy.
> > Perhaps nylon rope or glass (even carbon) fiber.
>
> There are a bunch of questions here.
>
> The first point, already raised, is that if you are thinking of using
> a lot of epoxy, a pure glue joint might be better without the
> addition of fibers.
OK.
>
> Second, the addition of fiberglass tape to an epoxy fillet is the
> standard way of adding fiber to a joint, and it works pretty well.

Yeh I know that.

> Third, I worry that the addition of epoxy may decrease the breaking
> strength of a rope or twine. The strength of the latter lies in the
> way it tightends under strain to allow every fiber to take some of
> the load. If you make the bundle inflexible with epoxy, the only the
> tightest fibers will take load, so the strain will be concentrated.
> Proably the fibers will stretch easier than the epoxy, in which case
> the plastic will shatter and the joint will fail before the rope does
> any good.

Hmm ... thanks for that perspective. I had not
thought of that. Sounds reasonable though.

> Fourth, if you want to use a rope joint, then why not emulate the
> Wharram catamarans and use a rope lashing without any goop of any
> kind. It works for him.

Actually that is where I started. Then I wondered, "What happens
if I slather some epoxy on this puppy?". (how the hell does
one punctuate such a sentence?)

I like to experiment so such thoughts occur to me all the time.
Most of these thoughts are stupid but once in a while something
interesting comes of them.

I think what comes of this is that if I want to impregnate the
rope with something (why?) then something flexible is more
in order.

> Fifth, after all that, there is a patented method for planking a
> small boat that uses a line running through holes across the planks.
> The line provides the strength in the keel to gunnel direction. I
> forget who actually invented it, but I associate the idea with the
> Cutts & Case Shipyard in Oxford, Md. (More strongly with Oxford than
> with Cutts & Case). It could have been the same Mr. Wiley who
> invented the windows that Mr. Bolger likes to use, and who designed
> some lovely boats including a beautiful double-ender named
> Mockingbird.

Hmm, thanks for the hints ... a few minutes with Google turned up
http://www.cuttsandcase.com/patented_method.html

Looks very interesting.

I was thinking of a similar idea but applied to a different
problem i.e. tying the frame to the plank. One wraps the
fiber (kevlar, carbon, whatever) around the frame and
plank. then epoxies the entire system. Sort of like
stitch and glue with the stitches left in place.

I guess the thing to do is to build a few joints like this
and then destructively test them to determine their
structural properties. With kevlar or carbon they
may well be very strong and they should not corrode.

I like the idea of fasteners but not of metals that corrode.

boblq
> Instead
> of metal fasteners I am considering exploring some
> form of rope or twine liberally doused in epoxy.
> Perhaps nylon rope or glass (even carbon) fiber.

There are a bunch of questions here.

The first point, already raised, is that if you are thinking of using
a lot of epoxy, a pure glue joint might be better without the
addition of fibers.

Second, the addition of fiberglass tape to an epoxy fillet is the
standard way of adding fiber to a joint, and it works pretty well.

Third, I worry that the addition of epoxy may decrease the breaking
strength of a rope or twine. The strength of the latter lies in the
way it tightends under strain to allow every fiber to take some of
the load. If you make the bundle inflexible with epoxy, the only the
tightest fibers will take load, so the strain will be concentrated.
Proably the fibers will stretch easier than the epoxy, in which case
the plastic will shatter and the joint will fail before the rope does
any good.

Fourth, if you want to use a rope joint, then why not emulate the
Wharram catamarans and use a rope lashing without any goop of any
kind. It works for him.

Fifth, after all that, there is a patented method for planking a
small boat that uses a line running through holes across the planks.
The line provides the strength in the keel to gunnel direction. I
forget who actually invented it, but I associate the idea with the
Cutts & Case Shipyard in Oxford, Md. (More strongly with Oxford than
with Cutts & Case). It could have been the same Mr. Wiley who
invented the windows that Mr. Bolger likes to use, and who designed
some lovely boats including a beautiful double-ender named
Mockingbird.

Peter
Hello folks,

I am building a small trimaran mostly as an experiment.
For my own amusement I designed it myself and am
experimenting with various construction techniques,
mostly stitch and glue, lamination, etc.

I have certain structures where screws or bolts might
conventionally be used but I have begun to consider
another alternative. For instance consider tying a
sawn frame or bulkhead to a chine or plank. Instead
of metal fasteners I am considering exploring some
form of rope or twine liberally doused in epoxy.
Perhaps nylon rope or glass (even carbon) fiber.
The idea being to avoid the rusting and consequent
poor interface that often occurs between metal
and wood while still providing positive connection
between two structural members.

I vaguely recall a Wooden Boat article on the use
of such a technique in the construction of large
wooden boats in some Arabic country. A natural
tar was used as I recall rather than epoxy but the
idea was the same.

Has anyone ever tried something like this? What
were the results?

Comments?

Bob La Quey