Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article (angle of heel question)
On Thursday, September 9, 2004, at 07:46 PM, Gregory Watson wrote:
considerably wider than legal trailer width. ;-)
YIBB,
David
>No, I don't think so. For one thing, the beam of a 60 catamaran are
>> I'm sure there will be combinations of wind strength and point of
>> sail that provide a lot of WHOOOOOOSH with very little effort or
>> discomfort.
>
> I think they call that a catamaran...
>
considerably wider than legal trailer width. ;-)
YIBB,
David
> A racer learns that the boat goes fastest when the angle of heelActually, when the boat heels, in general the waterline length
> provides the most sail carrying power. On most boats this is in the
> 25 degree range. Less rather than more. Certainly, if you reef back
> to this number, you will go just as fast as you would at a higher
> angle of heel.
>
> > I'm hoping the I60 will provide a level of both comfort and
> > exhilaration not usually associated with sailing.
>
> I'm sure there will be combinations of wind strength and point of
> sail that provide a lot of WHOOOOOOSH with very little effort or
> discomfort.
>
> Peter
increases. That increases the distance between the bow wave and the
stern wave, which allows the boat to go faster (usually square root
of waterline length x 1.5 or so, dependent on things like beam and
wetted surface). The reason you see powerboats go bow-to-the-sky
when they're taking off is that the hull has to climb up & over the
bow wave to get on a plane.
Sails actuall work better when they're upright - it's one of the
reasons cats are faster than multihulls. However, remember that the
wind going across the sail creates lift, which pulls the boat forward
(not pushes as most people think) - this is why too much twist in
your sail creates more heel - the lift at the bottom of the sail is
directed nearly straight at the water.
Heel, and the resulting weather helm, is desireable. Think about it
this way - when you squeeze a watermellon between your fingers, it
shoots outaway from them... think of the keel as the watermellon
seed, the heel and weather helm as one finger, and the wind as the
other finger. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but it kind of
gets the point across...
> I'm sure there will be combinations of wind strength and point ofI think they call that a catamaran...
> sail that provide a lot of WHOOOOOOSH with very little effort or
> discomfort.
Peter,
I actually don�t know much about the fishing part of the museum. I run the
sailing and boat building school only. As time permits I do get involved in
other parts of the operation and its all been a great experience. Its one of
those things where you wonder why people pay you to do it. When I had the
boat business, I used to do this stuff for them in my spare time and never
thought of being paid. I guess I should be careful whom I say that to. <BG>
I do know that in the Hudson they set nets on poles to catch the shad in the
lower river. There was some fishing done in the Kingston area of the river,
by towing nets out from the shore and looping back to the shore to encircle
the fish. The boat we are building is one that was involved in that type of
fishing. It�s a pulling boat that paid out the net over the stern. The
transom looks like a Whitehall from aft and in profile the skeg is rounded
under the boat so you don�t catch the net as you handle the boat.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
I actually don�t know much about the fishing part of the museum. I run the
sailing and boat building school only. As time permits I do get involved in
other parts of the operation and its all been a great experience. Its one of
those things where you wonder why people pay you to do it. When I had the
boat business, I used to do this stuff for them in my spare time and never
thought of being paid. I guess I should be careful whom I say that to. <BG>
I do know that in the Hudson they set nets on poles to catch the shad in the
lower river. There was some fishing done in the Kingston area of the river,
by towing nets out from the shore and looping back to the shore to encircle
the fish. The boat we are building is one that was involved in that type of
fishing. It�s a pulling boat that paid out the net over the stern. The
transom looks like a Whitehall from aft and in profile the skeg is rounded
under the boat so you don�t catch the net as you handle the boat.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 21:03:47 -0000
>
> > We started this morning on real work associated with the
> > construction of the 18-foot shad fishing boat...
>
>That sounds like a grand project.
>
>Do you know anything about shad fishing? I suppose I should read
>John McFee's new book. I understand it suggests that the shad run
>was the only thing that kept George Washington from starving at
>Valley Forge.
>
>I was looking in the Sharpstown Barge earlier this year. It was
>apparently developed for the shad fishery in the Chesapeake shortly
>after the introduction of the outboard. Hence, a long thin boat to
>make good speed with low power. I have assume from what I know about
>shad and alewives (the same? not the same?) that they were always
>caught in a fish trap of some kind and the boats were only needed to
>empty the trap and transport the fish. Hence "barge." Do you know if
>that is all true?
>
>Peter
>
>p.s. If we get this settled, we can try to discover what the
>Connecticut River Drag Boats were dragging.
>
> We started this morning on real work associated with theThat sounds like a grand project.
> construction of the 18-foot shad fishing boat...
Do you know anything about shad fishing? I suppose I should read
John McFee's new book. I understand it suggests that the shad run
was the only thing that kept George Washington from starving at
Valley Forge.
I was looking in the Sharpstown Barge earlier this year. It was
apparently developed for the shad fishery in the Chesapeake shortly
after the introduction of the outboard. Hence, a long thin boat to
make good speed with low power. I have assume from what I know about
shad and alewives (the same? not the same?) that they were always
caught in a fish trap of some kind and the boats were only needed to
empty the trap and transport the fish. Hence "barge." Do you know if
that is all true?
Peter
p.s. If we get this settled, we can try to discover what the
Connecticut River Drag Boats were dragging.
Sorry to not have responded to you post sooner Peter. We started this
morning on real work associated with the construction of the 18-foot shad
fishing boat that we are building. She will be carvel planked on stem bent
oak frames with Hackmatack Knees and White Oak stem, plank keel and
deadwood. We are lofting her now and will use a � size scale model to get
the patterns for all the planks so we can start ordering the wood in the
next week or so. I am so excited to have now started on this. It�s been a
long time since I have used copper rivets or spieled for a plank.
Of course you are right about the water parting as the boat goes past. I
have never quite put it the way you did about the action and reaction of the
hull and keel being responsible for the forward motion of the boat. But it
is the way it works. When we started that thread last night I was going
somewhere with that thought about water, but now I can�t think of what I had
in mind.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
morning on real work associated with the construction of the 18-foot shad
fishing boat that we are building. She will be carvel planked on stem bent
oak frames with Hackmatack Knees and White Oak stem, plank keel and
deadwood. We are lofting her now and will use a � size scale model to get
the patterns for all the planks so we can start ordering the wood in the
next week or so. I am so excited to have now started on this. It�s been a
long time since I have used copper rivets or spieled for a plank.
Of course you are right about the water parting as the boat goes past. I
have never quite put it the way you did about the action and reaction of the
hull and keel being responsible for the forward motion of the boat. But it
is the way it works. When we started that thread last night I was going
somewhere with that thought about water, but now I can�t think of what I had
in mind.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 01:04:31 -0000
>
> > By the way, Peter, if the water is an incompressible thing
> > does it go somewhere?
>
>Certainly. If nothing else, it parts to make way for the hull to
>pass.
>
>A sailboat functions by the interchange of momentum between the air
>and water. If there is no velocity difference at the interface (a
>condition commonly called a flat calm), the boat goes nowhere. The
>keel (or centerboard) and rudder push water to leeward; if they
>didn't they could not create a force. (That's Newton again.) Of
>course, since water is a lot heavier than air, the volume is a lot
>less.
>
>Peter
>
>
>I have a problem sailing to windward, whether a result of being blownWatch the luff of the jib, then.
>or being sucked. (I will leave the obvious word play for someone else.)
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
What I am going to say actually refers to the subject line:-)
I believe it mentioned in the WB article that Boats like
BIRDWATCHER sail "over" the water, while heavier displacement boats
sail "through" the water. Therefore a design like this tends to heel
quickly and then accelerate as the W/L increases whereas a boat with
more displayment will tend to heel less and not accelerate as quicky
due the added wetted surface and weight of the keel tending to hold
the boat upright.
I agree with John that too much heel kills performance. This was a
constant battle for years between the Brits and Americans when the
Americans used shallow draft "sandbaggers" and the British used
narrow deep draft keelboats. The American designs where faster but
more apt to founder in big seas.
Different horses for different courses. However most of Bolgers
designs work best when sailed in the condtions they were designed for.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
I believe it mentioned in the WB article that Boats like
BIRDWATCHER sail "over" the water, while heavier displacement boats
sail "through" the water. Therefore a design like this tends to heel
quickly and then accelerate as the W/L increases whereas a boat with
more displayment will tend to heel less and not accelerate as quicky
due the added wetted surface and weight of the keel tending to hold
the boat upright.
I agree with John that too much heel kills performance. This was a
constant battle for years between the Brits and Americans when the
Americans used shallow draft "sandbaggers" and the British used
narrow deep draft keelboats. The American designs where faster but
more apt to founder in big seas.
Different horses for different courses. However most of Bolgers
designs work best when sailed in the condtions they were designed for.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> I don't know about different boats with the same stiffness, and I,for one,
> am spouting off about a complex subject which I don't fullyunderstand,
> but...The phenomona of boats heeling to a puff, gathering speed,and the
> heel reducing is something I've experienced on many boats. I thinka crude
> explanation is that the wind generates a force on the sail. Theforce is
> applied to the boat which cannot accelerate at the same speed as theboat to
> acceleration of force on the sail. The force on the sail causes the
> heel more (the boats I've messed with heel quicker than theyaccelerate).
> As the force of the wind on the sail causes the boat to accelerate,more
> force is used to move the boat forward, less force is used to heelit, and
> the form stability of the boat pushes the boat to a more nearlylevel
> position. If you are really inclined and like to play with math,pick up
> Marchaj's book at the library.
>
> John T
I don't know about different boats with the same stiffness, and I, for one,
am spouting off about a complex subject which I don't fully understand,
but...The phenomona of boats heeling to a puff, gathering speed, and the
heel reducing is something I've experienced on many boats. I think a crude
explanation is that the wind generates a force on the sail. The force is
applied to the boat which cannot accelerate at the same speed as the
acceleration of force on the sail. The force on the sail causes the boat to
heel more (the boats I've messed with heel quicker than they accelerate).
As the force of the wind on the sail causes the boat to accelerate, more
force is used to move the boat forward, less force is used to heel it, and
the form stability of the boat pushes the boat to a more nearly level
position. If you are really inclined and like to play with math, pick up
Marchaj's book at the library.
John T
am spouting off about a complex subject which I don't fully understand,
but...The phenomona of boats heeling to a puff, gathering speed, and the
heel reducing is something I've experienced on many boats. I think a crude
explanation is that the wind generates a force on the sail. The force is
applied to the boat which cannot accelerate at the same speed as the
acceleration of force on the sail. The force on the sail causes the boat to
heel more (the boats I've messed with heel quicker than they accelerate).
As the force of the wind on the sail causes the boat to accelerate, more
force is used to move the boat forward, less force is used to heel it, and
the form stability of the boat pushes the boat to a more nearly level
position. If you are really inclined and like to play with math, pick up
Marchaj's book at the library.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Gainer" <robert_gainer@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> David,
> OK know I understand where you are going with this. Yes you have the
general
> idea right. Now that you have made the example more complex the answers
> become more difficult.
>
> The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero. If you add the
> component of the moments representing heel, and a similar one for drag and
> then one for forward motion. The result of resolving this will be zero
> unless something is accelerating either in a positive (speeding up) or
> negative (slowing down) way. This means that increasing speed means less
> drag more wind or less heel. No mater what you do, the answer to the
> equation must stay the same. Now if the boat is better designed there is
> less drag so the boat can be faster and keep the same answer to the
equation
> by dropping the amount of drag and increasing the amount of speed.
>
> In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag is
> increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance and
> that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to increase
the
> heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>
> >From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:52:13 -0400
> >
> >Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
> >
> >Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
> >
> >Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
> >equal stiffness.
> >
> >Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
> >is easily driven.
> >
> >Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
> >easily driven
> >
> >Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
> >motion and heeling? I don't think so.
> >
> >I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
> >less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
> >
> >Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
> >
> >Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
> >forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig is
> >divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier my
> >observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
> >accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
> >heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
> >catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates - making
> >me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
> >
> >Does that make any sense?
> >
> >YIBB,
> >
> >David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > > I don't understand the question. I know you don't mean, more wind,
more
> > > heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can
> > > you
> > > restate the question?
> > > All the best,
> > > Robert Gainer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> > >> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> > >> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
> > >>
> > >> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
> > >> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
> > >> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> David,
> > >>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes
> > >>> the
> > >>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn't count of
course.
> > >>> There
> > >>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the
> > >>> boats
> > >>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then
> > >>> she
> > >>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
> > >>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
> > >>> All the best,
> > >>> Robert Gainer
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> > >>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> > >>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
> > >>>> equal
> > >>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> rig
> > >>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>> some of
> > >>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other
> > >>>>> at
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and
> > >>>>> some
> > >>>>> of it
> > >>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> wind.
> > >>>>> All the best,
> > >>>>> Robert Gainer
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Bolger rules!!!
> > >>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > >>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > >>>>> posts
> > >>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > >>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > >>>>> 01930,
> > >>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > >>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Bolger rules!!!
> > >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > >>> posts
> > >>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > >>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > >>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> >(978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Simple answer is, sure. If your sail is horizontal, it gives no drive. If
vertical, the wind sees the most sail area.
This assumes no change in wetted hull shape, no benefit from wind shear, and
the water is deep enough to keep your daggerboard out of the mud.
Running downwind with a lateen one can heel to windward to get more area
aloft where the wind is stronger.
Note that some hulls can be steered by varying the amount of heel which then
affects the rudder drag.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
vertical, the wind sees the most sail area.
This assumes no change in wetted hull shape, no benefit from wind shear, and
the water is deep enough to keep your daggerboard out of the mud.
Running downwind with a lateen one can heel to windward to get more area
aloft where the wind is stronger.
Note that some hulls can be steered by varying the amount of heel which then
affects the rudder drag.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
sailing faster is sailing more upright.
> By the way, Peter, if the water is an incompressible thingCertainly. If nothing else, it parts to make way for the hull to
> does it go somewhere?
pass.
A sailboat functions by the interchange of momentum between the air
and water. If there is no velocity difference at the interface (a
condition commonly called a flat calm), the boat goes nowhere. The
keel (or centerboard) and rudder push water to leeward; if they
didn't they could not create a force. (That's Newton again.) Of
course, since water is a lot heavier than air, the volume is a lot
less.
Peter
David,
On that note, its past my bedtime so goodnight and enjoy.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
On that note, its past my bedtime so goodnight and enjoy.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:46:24 -0400
>
>I have a problem sailing to windward, whether a result of being blown
>or being sucked. (I will leave the obvious word play for someone else.)
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>
>
David,
Yes, remember Peter�s example of the catamaran. It can accelerate vary
rapidly and doesn�t heel very much as it does it. It has very little inertia
and great stability, so it�s easier to change the speed then it is to change
the angle of heel.
The water in a wave does move, a given particle in a water travels in a
circular orbit that decreases in diameter in proportion to the depth of the
particle. Waves are a more complex subject then you can imagine.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
Yes, remember Peter�s example of the catamaran. It can accelerate vary
rapidly and doesn�t heel very much as it does it. It has very little inertia
and great stability, so it�s easier to change the speed then it is to change
the angle of heel.
The water in a wave does move, a given particle in a water travels in a
circular orbit that decreases in diameter in proportion to the depth of the
particle. Waves are a more complex subject then you can imagine.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:40:43 -0400
>
>So would it be correct to say that things being equal, (which they
>seldom are,) a boat that can accelerate more rapidly will heel less
>when hit by a puff?
>
>The incompressibility is in interesting question. Clearly
>incompressible water can be displaced by the input of energy; yet one
>of the most observable examples, wind blowing over a body of water,
>ultimately results in swell � which transfers energy from one place to
>another without moving water (save up and down.)
>
>The world is full of interest phenomenon.
>
I have a problem sailing to windward, whether a result of being blown
or being sucked. (I will leave the obvious word play for someone else.)
YIBB,
David
or being sucked. (I will leave the obvious word play for someone else.)
YIBB,
David
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 07:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> David,
> You have it right. Peter is just trying to reduce it to a simpler term
> so
> that its easer to visualize whats happing. Some people have a problem
> with
> the concept of the boat being sucked to windward instead of being
> blown to
> windward. It does work because Every action has an equal and opposite
> reaction The action in this case is vacuum and the reaction is forward
> movement.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:05:58 -0400
>>
>> I was taught that when beating the boat is pulled forward by low
>> pressure on the leeward side of the sail, and pulled to windward by
>> low
>> pressure on the weather side of the keel. Have I been laboring all
>> these years under a misapprehension?
>>
>> -D
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:57 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
>>
>>>> The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero.
>>>
>>> It's best to think in terms of Newton's ?th Law: Every action has an
>>> equal an opposite reaction. In this case, air is directed back, and
>>> the boat is directed forward.
>>>
>>> Homework question: Which way is water directed?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>> posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
So would it be correct to say that things being equal, (which they
seldom are,) a boat that can accelerate more rapidly will heel less
when hit by a puff?
The incompressibility is in interesting question. Clearly
incompressible water can be displaced by the input of energy; yet one
of the most observable examples, wind blowing over a body of water,
ultimately results in swell – which transfers energy from one place to
another without moving water (save up and down.)
The world is full of interest phenomenon.
YIBB,
David
seldom are,) a boat that can accelerate more rapidly will heel less
when hit by a puff?
The incompressibility is in interesting question. Clearly
incompressible water can be displaced by the input of energy; yet one
of the most observable examples, wind blowing over a body of water,
ultimately results in swell – which transfers energy from one place to
another without moving water (save up and down.)
The world is full of interest phenomenon.
YIBB,
David
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 07:23 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> David,
> To answer your second question first. Yes, I am one of the people who
> went
> Trans-Atlantic, but I don’t refer to her as that little boat. She is a
> 22-foot Sea Sprite designed by Carl Alberg. Depending on your point of
> view
> she is a large boat. The smallest boat that I know of to do the trip
> is 6
> feet and 13 feet is not an uncommon size to take Trans-Atlantic.
>
> Your schooner heels more when the gust hits because the equation is
> trying
> to get out of balance. You have increased the wind and the heeling
> moment
> can be increased faster then the speed can be increased. The rig has
> less
> inertia then the boat does. As the speed picks up you reduce the
> heeling
> moment and still keep the resolution of forces at zero. So the boat
> will
> recover from the heel as the speed increases. Also as you increase in
> speed
> the drag goes up so the net is that the heeling is reduced. At all
> times the
> net of the resolution of the forces is zero.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
> By the way, Peter, if the water is an incompressible thing does it go
> somewhere?
>
>
>
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:51:42 -0400
>>
>> Getting closer. So far no surprises. Now for the tricky part.
>>
>> I'm sailing my schooner in 8 knots of wind. She's going 4 knots and
>> heeling 10 degrees.
>>
>> As we pass into one of the terrain-cause "wind funnels" the wind jumps
>> to 12 knots. The boat's first response is to increase her heel angle,
>> perhaps as far as 20 degrees. But as she starts to accelerate the
>> angle
>> of heel comes back down. This seems to occur even when I try very hard
>> *not* to adjust the trim of my ballast (crew). I (think) observed the
>> same thing on the Bluenose II, where I'm quite sure there was no
>> live/dynamic ballast effect. To me this suggests some sort of dynamic
>> relationship between the way the force on the rig is divided between
>> forward acceleration and heeling moment.
>>
>> Perhaps it's my imagination, but if I'm imaging it then Peter V. is
>> imagining it too. If we're not imagining this phenomenon, then what's
>> going on?
>>
>> BTW. Are you the same Robert Gainer that sailed that little boat all
>> the way across the Atlantic?
>>
>> YIBB,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:14 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>
>>> In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag
>>> is
>>> increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance
>>> and
>>> that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to
>>> increase the
>>> heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
>>> All the best,
>>> Robert Gainer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:52:13 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
>>>>
>>>> Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
>>>>
>>>> Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are
>>>> of
>>>> equal stiffness.
>>>>
>>>> Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form
>>>> that
>>>> is easily driven.
>>>>
>>>> Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
>>>> easily driven
>>>>
>>>> Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
>>>> motion and heeling? I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and
>>>> heel
>>>> less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
>>>>
>>>> Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is
>>>> so.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from
>>>> the
>>>> forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig
>>>> is
>>>> divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier
>>>> my
>>>> observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
>>>> accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests
>>>> has
>>>> heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
>>>> catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates –
>>>> making
>>>> me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
>>>>
>>>> Does that make any sense?
>>>>
>>>> YIBB,
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>> I don’t understand the question. I know you don’t mean, more wind,
>>>>> more
>>>>> heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed.
>>>>> Can
>>>>> you
>>>>> restate the question?
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher
>>>>>> article
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
>>>>>> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed,
>>>>>>> yes
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn’t count of
>>>>>>> course.
>>>>>>> There
>>>>>>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> boats
>>>>>>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is
>>>>>>> sailed
>>>>>>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>>>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the
>>>>>>>>>>> boat?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> rig
>>>>>>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> some of
>>>>>>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> of it
>>>>>>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much
>>>>>>>>> energy
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> wind.
>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
>>>>>>>>> horses
>>>>>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Fred'
>>>>>>>>> posts
>>>>>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>>>>>> 01930,
>>>>>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>> - Open discussion:
>>>>>>>>>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
>>>>>>> horses
>>>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>>>>> posts
>>>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>>>> 01930,
>>>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>>> posts
>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>> 01930,
>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>> posts
>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>>> Fax:
>>>> (978) 282-1349
>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>> posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
David,
You have it right. Peter is just trying to reduce it to a simpler term so
that its easer to visualize whats happing. Some people have a problem with
the concept of the boat being �sucked� to windward instead of being blown to
windward. It does work because �Every action has an equal and opposite
reaction� The action in this case is vacuum and the reaction is forward
movement.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
You have it right. Peter is just trying to reduce it to a simpler term so
that its easer to visualize whats happing. Some people have a problem with
the concept of the boat being �sucked� to windward instead of being blown to
windward. It does work because �Every action has an equal and opposite
reaction� The action in this case is vacuum and the reaction is forward
movement.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 19:05:58 -0400
>
>I was taught that when beating the boat is pulled forward by low
>pressure on the leeward side of the sail, and pulled to windward by low
>pressure on the weather side of the keel. Have I been laboring all
>these years under a misapprehension?
>
>-D
>
>
>On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:57 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
>
> >> The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero.
> >
> > It's best to think in terms of Newton's ?th Law: Every action has an
> > equal an opposite reaction. In this case, air is directed back, and
> > the boat is directed forward.
> >
> > Homework question: Which way is water directed?
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
David,
To answer your second question first. Yes, I am one of the people who went
Trans-Atlantic, but I don�t refer to her as that little boat. She is a
22-foot Sea Sprite designed by Carl Alberg. Depending on your point of view
she is a large boat. The smallest boat that I know of to do the trip is 6
feet and 13 feet is not an uncommon size to take Trans-Atlantic.
Your schooner heels more when the gust hits because the equation is trying
to get out of balance. You have increased the wind and the heeling moment
can be increased faster then the speed can be increased. The rig has less
inertia then the boat does. As the speed picks up you reduce the heeling
moment and still keep the resolution of forces at zero. So the boat will
recover from the heel as the speed increases. Also as you increase in speed
the drag goes up so the net is that the heeling is reduced. At all times the
net of the resolution of the forces is zero.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
By the way, Peter, if the water is an incompressible thing does it go
somewhere?
To answer your second question first. Yes, I am one of the people who went
Trans-Atlantic, but I don�t refer to her as that little boat. She is a
22-foot Sea Sprite designed by Carl Alberg. Depending on your point of view
she is a large boat. The smallest boat that I know of to do the trip is 6
feet and 13 feet is not an uncommon size to take Trans-Atlantic.
Your schooner heels more when the gust hits because the equation is trying
to get out of balance. You have increased the wind and the heeling moment
can be increased faster then the speed can be increased. The rig has less
inertia then the boat does. As the speed picks up you reduce the heeling
moment and still keep the resolution of forces at zero. So the boat will
recover from the heel as the speed increases. Also as you increase in speed
the drag goes up so the net is that the heeling is reduced. At all times the
net of the resolution of the forces is zero.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
By the way, Peter, if the water is an incompressible thing does it go
somewhere?
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 18:51:42 -0400
>
>Getting closer. So far no surprises. Now for the tricky part.
>
>I'm sailing my schooner in 8 knots of wind. She's going 4 knots and
>heeling 10 degrees.
>
>As we pass into one of the terrain-cause "wind funnels" the wind jumps
>to 12 knots. The boat's first response is to increase her heel angle,
>perhaps as far as 20 degrees. But as she starts to accelerate the angle
>of heel comes back down. This seems to occur even when I try very hard
>*not* to adjust the trim of my ballast (crew). I (think) observed the
>same thing on the Bluenose II, where I'm quite sure there was no
>live/dynamic ballast effect. To me this suggests some sort of dynamic
>relationship between the way the force on the rig is divided between
>forward acceleration and heeling moment.
>
>Perhaps it's my imagination, but if I'm imaging it then Peter V. is
>imagining it too. If we're not imagining this phenomenon, then what's
>going on?
>
>BTW. Are you the same Robert Gainer that sailed that little boat all
>the way across the Atlantic?
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>
>
>On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:14 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >
> > In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag is
> > increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance
> > and
> > that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to
> > increase the
> > heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
> > All the best,
> > Robert Gainer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:52:13 -0400
> >>
> >> Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
> >>
> >> Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
> >>
> >> Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
> >> equal stiffness.
> >>
> >> Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
> >> is easily driven.
> >>
> >> Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
> >> easily driven
> >>
> >> Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
> >> motion and heeling? I don't think so.
> >>
> >> I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
> >> less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
> >>
> >> Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
> >> forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig
> >> is
> >> divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier
> >> my
> >> observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
> >> accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
> >> heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
> >> catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates � making
> >> me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
> >>
> >> Does that make any sense?
> >>
> >> YIBB,
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>> I don�t understand the question. I know you don�t mean, more wind,
> >>> more
> >>> heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can
> >>> you
> >>> restate the question?
> >>> All the best,
> >>> Robert Gainer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
> >>>> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
> >>>> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> David,
> >>>>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of
> >>>>> course.
> >>>>> There
> >>>>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> boats
> >>>>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then
> >>>>> she
> >>>>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is
> >>>>> sailed
> >>>>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>> Robert Gainer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >>>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher
> >>>>>> article
> >>>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
> >>>>>> equal
> >>>>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> rig
> >>>>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> some of
> >>>>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the
> >>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and
> >>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>> of it
> >>>>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> wind.
> >>>>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>>> Robert Gainer
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> >>>>>>> horses
> >>>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>>>>>> posts
> >>>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
> >>>>>>> away
> >>>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> >>>>>>> 01930,
> >>>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>>>> posts
> >>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> >>>>> 01930,
> >>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>> posts
> >>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> >>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bolger rules!!!
> >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >> posts
> >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> >> Fax:
> >> (978) 282-1349
> >> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
I was taught that when beating the boat is pulled forward by low
pressure on the leeward side of the sail, and pulled to windward by low
pressure on the weather side of the keel. Have I been laboring all
these years under a misapprehension?
-D
pressure on the leeward side of the sail, and pulled to windward by low
pressure on the weather side of the keel. Have I been laboring all
these years under a misapprehension?
-D
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:57 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
>> The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero.
>
> It's best to think in terms of Newton's ?th Law: Every action has an
> equal an opposite reaction. In this case, air is directed back, and
> the boat is directed forward.
>
> Homework question: Which way is water directed?
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero.It's best to think in terms of Newton's ?th Law: Every action has an
equal an opposite reaction. In this case, air is directed back, and
the boat is directed forward.
Homework question: Which way is water directed?
Peter
Getting closer. So far no surprises. Now for the tricky part.
I'm sailing my schooner in 8 knots of wind. She's going 4 knots and
heeling 10 degrees.
As we pass into one of the terrain-cause "wind funnels" the wind jumps
to 12 knots. The boat's first response is to increase her heel angle,
perhaps as far as 20 degrees. But as she starts to accelerate the angle
of heel comes back down. This seems to occur even when I try very hard
*not* to adjust the trim of my ballast (crew). I (think) observed the
same thing on the Bluenose II, where I'm quite sure there was no
live/dynamic ballast effect. To me this suggests some sort of dynamic
relationship between the way the force on the rig is divided between
forward acceleration and heeling moment.
Perhaps it's my imagination, but if I'm imaging it then Peter V. is
imagining it too. If we're not imagining this phenomenon, then what's
going on?
BTW. Are you the same Robert Gainer that sailed that little boat all
the way across the Atlantic?
YIBB,
David
I'm sailing my schooner in 8 knots of wind. She's going 4 knots and
heeling 10 degrees.
As we pass into one of the terrain-cause "wind funnels" the wind jumps
to 12 knots. The boat's first response is to increase her heel angle,
perhaps as far as 20 degrees. But as she starts to accelerate the angle
of heel comes back down. This seems to occur even when I try very hard
*not* to adjust the trim of my ballast (crew). I (think) observed the
same thing on the Bluenose II, where I'm quite sure there was no
live/dynamic ballast effect. To me this suggests some sort of dynamic
relationship between the way the force on the rig is divided between
forward acceleration and heeling moment.
Perhaps it's my imagination, but if I'm imaging it then Peter V. is
imagining it too. If we're not imagining this phenomenon, then what's
going on?
BTW. Are you the same Robert Gainer that sailed that little boat all
the way across the Atlantic?
YIBB,
David
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 06:14 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>
> In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag is
> increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance
> and
> that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to
> increase the
> heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:52:13 -0400
>>
>> Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
>>
>> Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
>>
>> Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
>> equal stiffness.
>>
>> Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
>> is easily driven.
>>
>> Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
>> easily driven
>>
>> Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
>> motion and heeling? I don't think so.
>>
>> I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
>> less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
>>
>> Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
>>
>> Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
>> forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig
>> is
>> divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier
>> my
>> observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
>> accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
>> heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
>> catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates making
>> me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
>>
>> Does that make any sense?
>>
>> YIBB,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>> I dont understand the question. I know you dont mean, more wind,
>>> more
>>> heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can
>>> you
>>> restate the question?
>>> All the best,
>>> Robert Gainer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
>>>>
>>>> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
>>>> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
>>>> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes
>>>>> the
>>>>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesnt count of
>>>>> course.
>>>>> There
>>>>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if
>>>>> the
>>>>> boats
>>>>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then
>>>>> she
>>>>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is
>>>>> sailed
>>>>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher
>>>>>> article
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
>>>>>> equal
>>>>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> rig
>>>>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> some of
>>>>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> of it
>>>>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> wind.
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
>>>>>>> horses
>>>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>>>>> posts
>>>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>>>> 01930,
>>>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>>> posts
>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>> 01930,
>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>> posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>> posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>> Fax:
>> (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
David,
OK know I understand where you are going with this. Yes you have the general
idea right. Now that you have made the example more complex the answers
become more difficult.
The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero. If you add the
component of the moments representing heel, and a similar one for drag and
then one for forward motion. The result of resolving this will be zero
unless something is accelerating either in a positive (speeding up) or
negative (slowing down) way. This means that increasing speed means less
drag more wind or less heel. No mater what you do, the answer to the
equation must stay the same. Now if the boat is better designed there is
less drag so the boat can be faster and keep the same answer to the equation
by dropping the amount of drag and increasing the amount of speed.
In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag is
increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance and
that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to increase the
heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
All the best,
Robert Gainer
OK know I understand where you are going with this. Yes you have the general
idea right. Now that you have made the example more complex the answers
become more difficult.
The sum of the resultant forces will always equal zero. If you add the
component of the moments representing heel, and a similar one for drag and
then one for forward motion. The result of resolving this will be zero
unless something is accelerating either in a positive (speeding up) or
negative (slowing down) way. This means that increasing speed means less
drag more wind or less heel. No mater what you do, the answer to the
equation must stay the same. Now if the boat is better designed there is
less drag so the boat can be faster and keep the same answer to the equation
by dropping the amount of drag and increasing the amount of speed.
In your example the slower boat does not have to heel more. The drag is
increased because the hull is poorly designed and has more resistance and
that may use up the extra energy so there is none left over to increase the
heeling. Does this make sense to you and answer the question now?
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:52:13 -0400
>
>Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
>
>Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
>
>Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
>equal stiffness.
>
>Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
>is easily driven.
>
>Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
>easily driven
>
>Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
>motion and heeling? I don't think so.
>
>I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
>less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
>
>Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
>
>Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
>forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig is
>divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier my
>observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
>accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
>heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
>catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates � making
>me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
>
>Does that make any sense?
>
>YIBB,
>
>David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>
> > David,
> > I don�t understand the question. I know you don�t mean, more wind, more
> > heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can
> > you
> > restate the question?
> > All the best,
> > Robert Gainer
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
> >>
> >> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
> >> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
> >> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes
> >>> the
> >>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of course.
> >>> There
> >>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the
> >>> boats
> >>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then
> >>> she
> >>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
> >>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
> >>> All the best,
> >>> Robert Gainer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
> >>>>
> >>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
> >>>> equal
> >>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> rig
> >>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> some of
> >>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other
> >>>>> at
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> of it
> >>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> wind.
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>> Robert Gainer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>>>> posts
> >>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> >>>>> 01930,
> >>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>> posts
> >>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> >>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
>(978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Okay, let's see if I can get this out in a cogent manner.
Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
equal stiffness.
Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
is easily driven.
Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
easily driven
Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
motion and heeling? I don't think so.
I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig is
divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier my
observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates � making
me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
Does that make any sense?
YIBB,
David
Let's suppose we have two boats, both flying the same rig.
Let us also suppose that although different in form, both hulls are of
equal stiffness.
Let's say that one of these hulls is very light and is of a form that
is easily driven.
Let's say that the other is quite heavy and is of a form that is not
easily driven
Will both boats divide the force on the rig equally between forward
motion and heeling? I don't think so.
I would guess that the more easily driven boat will go faster and heel
less, and the other boat will go more slowly and heel more.
Of course just because I would guess this is so doesn't mean it is so.
Perhaps the slowness of the slow craft is due to subtraction from the
forward motion, rather than a difference in how the force on the rig is
divided. Perhaps there are other factors. However, as I said earlier my
observation is that when hit with a gust my boat heels then
accelerates, suggesting that the force on the rig first manifests has
heeling, then becomes forward motion. Peter has pointed out a
catamaran (presumable lighter and stiffer) simply accelerates � making
me wonder if a boat that is better able to go fast will heel less.
Does that make any sense?
YIBB,
David
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> David,
> I don�t understand the question. I know you don�t mean, more wind, more
> heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can
> you
> restate the question?
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
>>
>> I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
>> sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
>> sailing faster is sailing more upright.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes
>>> the
>>> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of course.
>>> There
>>> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the
>>> boats
>>> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then
>>> she
>>> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
>>> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
>>> All the best,
>>> Robert Gainer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>>>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>>>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
>>>>
>>>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and
>>>> equal
>>>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
>>>>>
>>>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to
>>>>> the
>>>>> rig
>>>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can
>>>>> have
>>>>> some of
>>>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other
>>>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and
>>>>> some
>>>>> of it
>>>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy
>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>> wind.
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Robert Gainer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>>>> posts
>>>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>>>>> 01930,
>>>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>> posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David,
I don�t understand the question. I know you don�t mean, more wind, more
heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can you
restate the question?
All the best,
Robert Gainer
I don�t understand the question. I know you don�t mean, more wind, more
heel, more speed as opposed to less heel, less, wind, less speed. Can you
restate the question?
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:23 -0400
>
>I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
>sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
>sailing faster is sailing more upright.
>
>
>
>
>On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>
> > David,
> > If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes the
> > faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of course.
> > There
> > are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the
> > boats
> > are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then she
> > might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
> > upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
> > All the best,
> > Robert Gainer
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: David Ryan <david@...>
> >> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
> >> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
> >>
> >> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and equal
> >> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
> >>>
> >>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to the
> >>> rig
> >>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have
> >>> some of
> >>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at
> >>> the
> >>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some
> >>> of it
> >>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in
> >>> the
> >>> wind.
> >>> All the best,
> >>> Robert Gainer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bolger rules!!!
> >>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> >>> posts
> >>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> >>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
I understand both empirically and imperially that sailing upright is
sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
sailing faster is sailing more upright.
sailing faster; what I'm wondering is if (all things being equal)
sailing faster is sailing more upright.
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> David,
> If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes the
> faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesnt count of course.
> There
> are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the
> boats
> are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then she
> might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
> upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>> From: David Ryan <david@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
>>
>> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and equal
>> sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
>>>
>>> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to the
>>> rig
>>> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have
>>> some of
>>> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at
>>> the
>>> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some
>>> of it
>>> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in
>>> the
>>> wind.
>>> All the best,
>>> Robert Gainer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
>>> posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Peter you forgot to add the effect from the increased angle of attack for
the rudder. As the puff hits you need to add rudder to maintain course and
that will add to the heeling moment of the keel.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
the rudder. As the puff hits you need to add rudder to maintain course and
that will add to the heeling moment of the keel.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:31:56 -0000
>
> > Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness
> > and equal sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>
>An interesting question, and I think the answer may be yes, given a
>few additional normalizing conditions. The first question is why is
>one boat faster than the other. Perhaps longer? On a good catamaran,
>the first reaction to a puff is acceleration, whereas a ballasted
>monohull will heel.
>
>I have experienced the "heel, then go" phenomenon that you describe.
>I'm not entirely sure of the physics. The first order change due to
>the boat moving faster is to move the apparent wind forward and
>increase it's speed. Those things would seem to be associated with
>more heel, not less. More speed would also increase the lift from the
>keel, which would be in the "more heel" direction.
>
>I'll bet the answer is in a detail analysis of the direction and
>magnitude of the force vectors off the sails.
>
>Peter
>
> Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffnessAn interesting question, and I think the answer may be yes, given a
> and equal sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
few additional normalizing conditions. The first question is why is
one boat faster than the other. Perhaps longer? On a good catamaran,
the first reaction to a puff is acceleration, whereas a ballasted
monohull will heel.
I have experienced the "heel, then go" phenomenon that you describe.
I'm not entirely sure of the physics. The first order change due to
the boat moving faster is to move the apparent wind forward and
increase it's speed. Those things would seem to be associated with
more heel, not less. More speed would also increase the lift from the
keel, which would be in the "more heel" direction.
I'll bet the answer is in a detail analysis of the direction and
magnitude of the force vectors off the sails.
Peter
David,
If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes the
faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of course. There
are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the boats
are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then she
might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
If the two boats are the same, except for how they are sailed, yes the
faster boat is more upright. Going down wind doesn�t count of course. There
are some things that interfere with this in practice, such as if the boats
are not the same and heeling over gives one a longer waterline then she
might be faster when she heels over more then the one that is sailed
upright. For the most part sailing upright is faster.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
>From: David Ryan <david@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:07:35 -0400
>
>Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and equal
>sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
>
>
>On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
> >
> > The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to the
> > rig
> > that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have
> > some of
> > one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at
> > the
> > same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some
> > of it
> > goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in
> > the
> > wind.
> > All the best,
> > Robert Gainer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Then does it follow that if two boats are of equal stiffness and equal
sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
sailplan, the one that goes faster will heel less?
On Sunday, August 29, 2004, at 03:29 PM, Robert Gainer wrote:
>
>
>>> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
>
> The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to the
> rig
> that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have
> some of
> one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at
> the
> same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some
> of it
> goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in
> the
> wind.
> All the best,
> Robert Gainer
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
David,
that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have some of
one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at the
same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some of it
goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in the
wind.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
> > but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?The two forces are one and the same. The wind transfers energy to the rig
that can be used to heel the boat or drive her forward. You can have some of
one and some of the other together but not all of one or the other at the
same time. Of course that means that some of it goes to heel and some of it
goes to drive and the sum is the same. Theirs only so much energy in the
wind.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
> Hit with a gust, my Schooner will heel down, then come back to her
> feet as she accelerates forward. I noticed the same thing when we
> were on the Bluenose II last Summer. You'd know better than I,
> but it's the heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
That sounds like "roll tacking" where you deliberately induce excessive heel
(remain sitting on what is now the leeward rail) and then shift your weight
to bring the boat back upright. During the roll the effective wind is
brought aft for quicker filling of the sail and for the acceleration you
mention. The sheet can be started a few inches and then trimmed at the same
time. Yes, you can get wet if your timing is bad or your abs are
recalcitrant.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>I'm so new to the group that I don't even qualify as a lurker, but I'mThere was a lot about it when it came out. Jim Michalak's web archive at
>wondering why there's been no comment on Mason Smith's article about
>the Birdwatcher in the current Wooden Boat magazine. The article
>fascinating me. Any experience with Birdwatcher out there, either as
>sailor/owner or builder?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bernie Weinraub
Duckworks magazine online has some essays about his Birdwatcher, too.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
BWAOM pages 245/246 when describing WHALEWATCHER, which is his ideal
combination of matching the forward sides with the bottom profile.
The ideal angle when sailing WHALEWATCHER is 10-12 degrees of heel.
Of course this is only considering the hull design and not the sails
I believe. He freely admits that sail design and sailing ability may
have a greater performance impact than the hull design.
He also mentions that when sailed upright i.e. in light winds there
is less wetted surface on a boat with considerable rocker in the
bottom. This is what most if not all the box boats seem to have in
common and some of the flared hulls as well.
By the same token, when visiting the Viking Ship Museum in Oslo
Norway I was amazed to see that a couple of the older, smaller ones
had a cross-section shape almost exactly like CHEBACCO - And I'm
talking about the plywood verson, with perfectly plumb sides below
the gunwales amidships (Wide strakes) and then a perfectly flat
bottom section with hard chines. These boat remains are over 1000
years old and although only the larger ones survived as they were
used for burial of prominant people, they were obviously smaller ones
commonly made.
Some of these boats are being built today in the shorter versions and
the performance under both sail and oar are pretty impressive. I met
one American fellow who builds them. He went over to Norway to learn
about them and stayed there:-)
These small raiding boats could be rowed all day by seven raiders at
seven knots and when they landed they could get out and carry the
boat to hide it. And they still had more than enough energy left to
pillage and plunder and make a fast escape.
Nels
> I'm quite sure that the Light Schooner prefers an angle of heelI find that Bolger summarizes his sharpie philosophy pretty well on
> somewhat less than 25 degrees, and I'd guess that the I60 will also
> want to sail relatively flat.
>
BWAOM pages 245/246 when describing WHALEWATCHER, which is his ideal
combination of matching the forward sides with the bottom profile.
The ideal angle when sailing WHALEWATCHER is 10-12 degrees of heel.
Of course this is only considering the hull design and not the sails
I believe. He freely admits that sail design and sailing ability may
have a greater performance impact than the hull design.
He also mentions that when sailed upright i.e. in light winds there
is less wetted surface on a boat with considerable rocker in the
bottom. This is what most if not all the box boats seem to have in
common and some of the flared hulls as well.
By the same token, when visiting the Viking Ship Museum in Oslo
Norway I was amazed to see that a couple of the older, smaller ones
had a cross-section shape almost exactly like CHEBACCO - And I'm
talking about the plywood verson, with perfectly plumb sides below
the gunwales amidships (Wide strakes) and then a perfectly flat
bottom section with hard chines. These boat remains are over 1000
years old and although only the larger ones survived as they were
used for burial of prominant people, they were obviously smaller ones
commonly made.
Some of these boats are being built today in the shorter versions and
the performance under both sail and oar are pretty impressive. I met
one American fellow who builds them. He went over to Norway to learn
about them and stayed there:-)
These small raiding boats could be rowed all day by seven raiders at
seven knots and when they landed they could get out and carry the
boat to hide it. And they still had more than enough energy left to
pillage and plunder and make a fast escape.
Nels
I'm quite sure that the Light Schooner prefers an angle of heel
somewhat less than 25 degrees, and I'd guess that the I60 will also
want to sail relatively flat.
One think I think I've noticed is that to some degree angle of heel
relates to conversion of the wind on the sails into forward momentum.
Hit with a gust, my Schooner will heel down, then come back to her feet
as she accelerates forward. I noticed the same thing when we were on
the Bluenose II last Summer. You'd know better than I, but it's the
heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
YIBB,
David
somewhat less than 25 degrees, and I'd guess that the I60 will also
want to sail relatively flat.
One think I think I've noticed is that to some degree angle of heel
relates to conversion of the wind on the sails into forward momentum.
Hit with a gust, my Schooner will heel down, then come back to her feet
as she accelerates forward. I noticed the same thing when we were on
the Bluenose II last Summer. You'd know better than I, but it's the
heeling force the same force that drives the boat?
YIBB,
David
On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 12:31 PM, pvanderwaart wrote:
>
>
>> I don't suppose the excessive heeling does much for
>> performance either.
>
> A racer learns that the boat goes fastest when the angle of heel
> provides the most sail carrying power. On most boats this is in the
> 25 degree range. Less rather than more. Certainly, if you reef back
> to this number, you will go just as fast as you would at a higher
> angle of heel.
>
>> I'm hoping the I60 will provide a level of both comfort and
>> exhilaration not usually associated with sailing.
>
> I'm sure there will be combinations of wind strength and point of
> sail that provide a lot of WHOOOOOOSH with very little effort or
> discomfort.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
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> I have to confess, I haven't see the article in question. Was it aboutThe Wooden Boat article was about a 'cruise' in an original
> the BW, the BWII, or both?
Birdwatcher, with a 'sidebar' page by PB&F describing their
recently issued upgrade to the design.
> I have to confess, I haven't see the article in question.The article was about a BW, but the Bolger-written sidebar introduced
> Was it about the BW, the BWII, or both?
BWII.
> I don't suppose the excessive heeling does much forA racer learns that the boat goes fastest when the angle of heel
> performance either.
provides the most sail carrying power. On most boats this is in the
25 degree range. Less rather than more. Certainly, if you reef back
to this number, you will go just as fast as you would at a higher
angle of heel.
> I'm hoping the I60 will provide a level of both comfort andI'm sure there will be combinations of wind strength and point of
> exhilaration not usually associated with sailing.
sail that provide a lot of WHOOOOOOSH with very little effort or
discomfort.
Peter
On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 10:52 AM, pvanderwaart wrote:
the BW, the BWII, or both?
island. I might even get a chance to fly the staysail now and then!
microbrewery movement. What I mean by this is the demands of mass
marketing, while producing a product that (by definition) has mass
appeal, it can also result in a product that is massively unappealing
to a (sometimes) significant minority. (BTW, my coconspirator Sue has
a particular talent for finding exotic and tasty domestic brews.)
Of course there is the option of combining form stability with a deep
keel! I'm hoping the I60 will provide a level of both comfort and
exhilaration not usually associated with sailing. My current theory
(with the LS) is that the angle of heel be much more than the angle of
flair on the top sides. That's probably too convenient to actually be
the truth, but it does have a nice ring to it!
YIBB,
David
>> Plans for the BWII are outselling the original byI have to confess, I haven't see the article in question. Was it about
>> wide margin. I'd guess it's the outboard that makes most of the
>> difference.
>
> Or the advertising value of a WoodenBoat article.
the BW, the BWII, or both?
> Here in Western Long Island Sound, we tend to think a 12 Kt breeze isI guess I'd get a lot more use out of my Light Schooner if I lived up
> near hurricane strength. We're not used to it.
island. I might even get a chance to fly the staysail now and then!
> A lot of modern cruisers only have a narrow range of wind strengthI didn't know I liked beer until I was exposed to the beers of the PNW
> where they sail well. They have rigs that are fashioned after racing
> rigs, but they don't have the light sails that racers do. So they
> don't sail in light winds. So, the designer eliminates light wind
> from the sailing envelope to make the boat cheaper, and the boat
> sails even worse in light winds.
microbrewery movement. What I mean by this is the demands of mass
marketing, while producing a product that (by definition) has mass
appeal, it can also result in a product that is massively unappealing
to a (sometimes) significant minority. (BTW, my coconspirator Sue has
a particular talent for finding exotic and tasty domestic brews.)
> In order to have max interior room and to save money on ballast, theI don't suppose the excessive healing does much for performance either.
> cruising boat designer goes for a lot of form stability rather than a
> deep keel. The cruiser with his roller furler (plus he forgot to rig
> the reefing lines) can't cut down on sail area in strong winds, and
> the boat heels too much to please his wife.
Of course there is the option of combining form stability with a deep
keel! I'm hoping the I60 will provide a level of both comfort and
exhilaration not usually associated with sailing. My current theory
(with the LS) is that the angle of heel be much more than the angle of
flair on the top sides. That's probably too convenient to actually be
the truth, but it does have a nice ring to it!
YIBB,
David
> Plans for the BWII are outselling the original byOr the advertising value of a WoodenBoat article.
> wide margin. I'd guess it's the outboard that makes most of the
> difference.
Here in Western Long Island Sound, we tend to think a 12 Kt breeze is
near hurricane strength. We're not used to it.
A lot of modern cruisers only have a narrow range of wind strength
where they sail well. They have rigs that are fashioned after racing
rigs, but they don't have the light sails that racers do. So they
don't sail in light winds. So, the designer eliminates light wind
from the sailing envelope to make the boat cheaper, and the boat
sails even worse in light winds.
In order to have max interior room and to save money on ballast, the
cruising boat designer goes for a lot of form stability rather than a
deep keel. The cruiser with his roller furler (plus he forgot to rig
the reefing lines) can't cut down on sail area in strong winds, and
the boat heels too much to please his wife.
Peter
On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Will Samson wrote:
more than enough wind to sail! But even on nearly perfect sailing days,
half the sailboats that go by our beach have some weird sail plan up
(jib only, main only, mizzen and jib only, etc) and are running their
motors. I think a lot of people like the *idea* of sailing more than
they like sailing. Plans for the BWII are outselling the original by
wide margin. I'd guess it's the outboard that makes most of the
difference.
YIBB,
David
>I think the original idea is that if it's too choppy to row, there's
> I see he has now "grudgingly" (his word) designed BWII with provision
> for an OB, as well as a number of other practical enhancements. That
> should make it a more practical proposition for a lot of people.
>
more than enough wind to sail! But even on nearly perfect sailing days,
half the sailboats that go by our beach have some weird sail plan up
(jib only, main only, mizzen and jib only, etc) and are running their
motors. I think a lot of people like the *idea* of sailing more than
they like sailing. Plans for the BWII are outselling the original by
wide margin. I'd guess it's the outboard that makes most of the
difference.
YIBB,
David
Interestingly, Birdwatcher owners I've communicated with have either loved it to pieces or couldn't wait to unload it onto somebody else.
PCB, I seem to remember, claimed it was one of the finest examples of his work.
What a number of owners found difficult was PCB's refusal (for a long time) to have anything to do with anybody who wanted to put on an OB. Anybody who has tried to row a boat that size into a chop will know that rowing is an impractical way of getting home in anything other than a flat calm; and even then you wouldn't want to have to go very far.
I see he has now "grudgingly" (his word) designed BWII with provision for an OB, as well as a number of other practical enhancements. That should make it a more practical proposition for a lot of people.
Bill
PS Do I remember somebody saying the one in the article was up for sale again?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PCB, I seem to remember, claimed it was one of the finest examples of his work.
What a number of owners found difficult was PCB's refusal (for a long time) to have anything to do with anybody who wanted to put on an OB. Anybody who has tried to row a boat that size into a chop will know that rowing is an impractical way of getting home in anything other than a flat calm; and even then you wouldn't want to have to go very far.
I see he has now "grudgingly" (his word) designed BWII with provision for an OB, as well as a number of other practical enhancements. That should make it a more practical proposition for a lot of people.
Bill
PS Do I remember somebody saying the one in the article was up for sale again?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There's been a bit of talk about it here, look back through the archives.
I've got a set of plans for the original BW, and would someday like to build
one. But I've also got my own ideas for a similar boat and we'll see where
that takes me.
FWIW, I do read WB despite it's tendency towards gold platers. As a student
of design, it's nice to see lots of pretty boats to get ideas for shapes and
proportions in my own work.
JB
I've got a set of plans for the original BW, and would someday like to build
one. But I've also got my own ideas for a similar boat and we'll see where
that takes me.
FWIW, I do read WB despite it's tendency towards gold platers. As a student
of design, it's nice to see lots of pretty boats to get ideas for shapes and
proportions in my own work.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bernard Weinraub" <bernmart@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 2:42 AM
Subject: [bolger] Newbie question about Birdwatcher article
| I'm so new to the group that I don't even qualify as a lurker, but I'm
| wondering why there's been no comment on Mason Smith's article about
| the Birdwatcher in the current Wooden Boat magazine. The article
| fascinating me. Any experience with Birdwatcher out there, either as
| sailor/owner or builder?
|
| Thanks,
|
| Bernie Weinraub
|
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
The reason may be that many of us regard Wooden Boat as a stuffy old
publication more akin to Playboy in its fetishization of impractical,
unsafe and/or unobtainable types, and do not make a habit of reading it.
YIBB,
David
publication more akin to Playboy in its fetishization of impractical,
unsafe and/or unobtainable types, and do not make a habit of reading it.
YIBB,
David
On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 02:42 AM, Bernard Weinraub wrote:
> I'm so new to the group that I don't even qualify as a lurker, but I'm
> wondering why there's been no comment on Mason Smith's article about
> the Birdwatcher in the current Wooden Boat magazine. The article
> fascinating me. Any experience with Birdwatcher out there, either as
> sailor/owner or builder?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bernie Weinraub
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
I'm so new to the group that I don't even qualify as a lurker, but I'm
wondering why there's been no comment on Mason Smith's article about
the Birdwatcher in the current Wooden Boat magazine. The article
fascinating me. Any experience with Birdwatcher out there, either as
sailor/owner or builder?
Thanks,
Bernie Weinraub
wondering why there's been no comment on Mason Smith's article about
the Birdwatcher in the current Wooden Boat magazine. The article
fascinating me. Any experience with Birdwatcher out there, either as
sailor/owner or builder?
Thanks,
Bernie Weinraub