[bolger] Re: Lessons in Sharpie Design
In a message dated 3/29/00 1:36:09 PM Central Standard Time,jkohnen@...
writes:
<< Westy Farmer's FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! >>
Thanks for the news! I noticed the Weston Farmer add in the 4/1/00 MAIB, but
no mention there that the book is back in print. I'll give a call on Monday
and hope you're not just pulling an "April Fool's!" on me. As to price - some
months ago I received a quote via Amazon.com for $68 for a used copy, which
seemed a bit steep to me.
writes:
<< Westy Farmer's FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! >>
Thanks for the news! I noticed the Weston Farmer add in the 4/1/00 MAIB, but
no mention there that the book is back in print. I'll give a call on Monday
and hope you're not just pulling an "April Fool's!" on me. As to price - some
months ago I received a quote via Amazon.com for $68 for a used copy, which
seemed a bit steep to me.
Westy Farmer's FROM MY OLD BOAT SHOP is back in print! His heirs have
issued a new edition with some additional articles added (IIRC). Look for
the ads in MAIB and the back of WoodenBoat. Unfortunately it's not cheap.
issued a new edition with some additional articles added (IIRC). Look for
the ads in MAIB and the back of WoodenBoat. Unfortunately it's not cheap.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:29:29 EST, Bill in Eden Prairie, MN wrote:
> In a message dated 3/23/00 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time,
>paquette@...writes:
>
> << Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
> design? >>
> ...
> A book I like that is out of print, but in circulation in the Hennepin
> County Library system, Weston Farmer's "From The (or My) Old Boathouse".
> This is not a design primer, but more-or-less the memoirs of a
> semi-self-taught designer from an era before professionalization of boat
> design....
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.cyber-dyne.com/~jkohnen/nautical.html
When men come to love sea-life, they are not fit to live on land.
<Samuel Johnson>
"mark paquette" <paquett-@...> wrote:
"Design" is a dodgy issue. Workboats typically weren't "designed" but
of course yachts were. So things relative to workboats and sharpies are
often more about "how to build" or describing how they were built, than
they are how they were designed".
Thoughts: anything by Commodore Munroe or Vincent Gilpin. Anything by
Chapelle ("Yacht Designing and Planning") -- I suspect there must be
magazine articles on "sharpie yachts" by Chapelle which have never made
it into book form. These would likely be from the 30s and 40s, 50's
maybe? Anything by Bolger, of course.
Sucher's SIMPLIFIED BOATBUILDING/FLAT-BOTTOMED BOAT ...
Reuel Parker's THE SHARPIE BOOK does a good job surveying all the
sharpie-yachters from Clapham and Munroe on down. We could use a new
book on Clapham and Munroe, though.
Look on the Cheap Pages. "Short Boats" page has old articles on skiffs
and scows, and you can pretty much blow up the sizes of these small
boats as the techniques are much the same. Especially for scows. Also
many links there and on other Cheap Pages.
I've got a link to W.P. Stephens, "Canoe and Boat Building for
Amateurs", which discusses something of design ca 1890-1900.
I don't mean to slight John Gardner, though he's a bit too New England
for my tastes. "Wooden Boats to Build and Use" has a couple interesting
essays as does the other one (the one that's not "The Dory Book").
I've got about 6 ca 1880-1920 e-books more or less edited, I really
should get them online. Sigh.
> Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books onboat design?
"Design" is a dodgy issue. Workboats typically weren't "designed" but
of course yachts were. So things relative to workboats and sharpies are
often more about "how to build" or describing how they were built, than
they are how they were designed".
Thoughts: anything by Commodore Munroe or Vincent Gilpin. Anything by
Chapelle ("Yacht Designing and Planning") -- I suspect there must be
magazine articles on "sharpie yachts" by Chapelle which have never made
it into book form. These would likely be from the 30s and 40s, 50's
maybe? Anything by Bolger, of course.
Sucher's SIMPLIFIED BOATBUILDING/FLAT-BOTTOMED BOAT ...
Reuel Parker's THE SHARPIE BOOK does a good job surveying all the
sharpie-yachters from Clapham and Munroe on down. We could use a new
book on Clapham and Munroe, though.
Look on the Cheap Pages. "Short Boats" page has old articles on skiffs
and scows, and you can pretty much blow up the sizes of these small
boats as the techniques are much the same. Especially for scows. Also
many links there and on other Cheap Pages.
I've got a link to W.P. Stephens, "Canoe and Boat Building for
Amateurs", which discusses something of design ca 1890-1900.
I don't mean to slight John Gardner, though he's a bit too New England
for my tastes. "Wooden Boats to Build and Use" has a couple interesting
essays as does the other one (the one that's not "The Dory Book").
I've got about 6 ca 1880-1920 e-books more or less edited, I really
should get them online. Sigh.
G Carlson program is worth geting your hands on. I have try the others he
mentions and they are ok but are not real easy to use (this from a user of
various 3d and solid modeling programs). I have had hours of fun working
with Carlson program. GET IT, USE IT, LOVE IT is all I can say.
______________________________________________________
mentions and they are ok but are not real easy to use (this from a user of
various 3d and solid modeling programs). I have had hours of fun working
with Carlson program. GET IT, USE IT, LOVE IT is all I can say.
______________________________________________________
If you want many of Michalak's boat ideas in one place, you can find
them in his book. Well worth it. The essay on missile baloney (actually
kinda relevant) is especially entertaining, tho I think that's on the
site, too.
wmrpag-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3943
snip
them in his book. Well worth it. The essay on missile baloney (actually
kinda relevant) is especially entertaining, tho I think that's on the
site, too.
wmrpag-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3943
>snipposted
> Jim Michalak has a number of very interesting articles on boat design
> on the web. The URL:http://www.apci.net?~michalak/#indexwill getyou
> started, I think. snip three sites on the internet and I findnavigating a bit frustrating at times,
snip
A copy of my hull design program is indeed in the egroup vault, and on my
website www.carlsondesign.com. Robert Laine's - also free - Carene
programs are available or linked from my site.
Hullform is a different commercial program; I believe the free version is
either stripped down or a previous release. It's seem to be nice software,
seeming to handle both hard-chined and round hulls, but appears more
complex.
I also have Plyboats, and my ownd program is just another way to skin that cat.
Regards,
Gregg Carlson
website www.carlsondesign.com. Robert Laine's - also free - Carene
programs are available or linked from my site.
Hullform is a different commercial program; I believe the free version is
either stripped down or a previous release. It's seem to be nice software,
seeming to handle both hard-chined and round hulls, but appears more
complex.
I also have Plyboats, and my ownd program is just another way to skin that cat.
Regards,
Gregg Carlson
>There are at least a few free-ware programs on the net. Our Moderator, Greg
>Carlson, has one available on his web site. Milchalak's site somewhere
>offers a trial down load of "PLYBOATS", and another program called "HULLFORM"
>or something like that, which may or may not be Carlson's program. In the
>Bolger e-group there appears to be a file for a program which may or may not
>be the same or a similar program. I haven't the courage to try either. I
>successfully down-loaded a program offered by a French man called "Carene50"
>or some such, but haven't really tried to figure out how to use it. I offer a
>word of caution - if you don't know what you are doing in down-loading
>programs off the internet (and I most assuredly do not know what I am doing)
>it is possible to inadvertantly do something or somethings which will
>thoroughly annoy the internet-saavy poster whose generosity you wish to avail
>yourself of.
>
>Ciao for niao;
>Bill in Eden Prairie, MN
In a message dated 3/23/00 7:23:44 PM Central Standard Time,
paquette@...writes:
<< Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
design? >>
All of Bolger's books, IMHO, make for very enlightening reading. His
excellent prose style can lull one into reading with pleasure and not quite
grasping all of the implications of his sometimes very condensed opinions. I
find that most of his stuff bears periodic re-reading - at least for me - I
often take note of a detail on re-reading that simply passed under the radar
on first or even second reading.
Jeff Gilbert has has "a Hons degree with a triple major in Maths, Applied
Maths & Stats." (He also claims to have a Ph.D. in Miscalculation). In a
prior exchange, he suggested that I might profit by a design course offered
by "McNaughton's Boatyard, Eastport". I don't know if this a mail-order, or
online class or whether Jeff is taking it.
As far as primers on naval architecture go, I don't have any recommendations
to make and I'm not sure one isn't pretty much similar to the other. I have
a copy of "Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships" by Cyrus Hamlin, N.A.,
Cornell Maritime Press, 1989, which covers the basics at a pretty high level
of generality. If you get hooked on thinking about boat design you will want
more than a couple of reference books - I'd suggest starting with the Duluth
public library and the inter-library loan program before parting with hard
cash.
A book I like that is out of print, but in circulation in the Hennepin
County Library system, Weston Farmer's "From The (or My) Old Boathouse".
This is not a design primer, but more-or-less the memoirs of a
semi-self-taught designer from an era before professionalization of boat
design. He gives some interesting and entertaining accounts of tackling
design problems with very rudimentary tools by modern standards, but with
considerable ingenuity. If I run across a copy in a used book store, I''ll
snap it up in a minute to have his observations regarding crude tests with
models handy for reference. He eventually ended up residing in Wayzata, MN.
Jim Michalak has a number of very interesting articles on boat design posted
on the web. The URL:http://www.apci.net?~michalak/#indexwill get you
started, I think. I recently read his articles on water ballast with
considerable interest. His material seems to be spread about on at least
three sites on the internet and I find navigating a bit frustrating at times,
but I'm a certifiable computer incompetent.
Finally, I would suggest that a computer boat design program can be a lot of
fun. These allow you to play with design parameters without the need of a
drafting table, splines, etc. It also performs a lot of mathematical
calculations quickly and automatically, which permits one to experiment and
to make many more "mistakes" in a much shorter period of time.
I have an edition of "PLYBOATS" by Ray Clark - its available on the internet
and regularly advertised in "Wooden Boat". I mail-ordered it on a floppy
disk and it came with a pretty good (print) users' manual, at a price of $50,
if recollection serves. The constraints that it puts on shapes probably make
it unacceptable to any serious designer or would-be designer, but the same
constraints make it easy and quick for a diletante to "design" simple boats.
It automatically calculates and displays displacement, righting moment a
various degrees of heel, prismatic coefficients and probably some other
quantities that elude immediate recall. I can only give it a qualified
endorsement however as my computer goes into total brain-lock when I ask it
to print the panel expansions. This is a disappointment, as I hoped to use
this functions to build small models of "Bolgeresque" boats. Although Ray
Clark wasn't able to diagnose my particular problem, evidently most other
purchasers can use this function with their ink-jet printers with
satisfaction.
There are at least a few free-ware programs on the net. Our Moderator, Greg
Carlson, has one available on his web site. Milchalak's site somewhere
offers a trial down load of "PLYBOATS", and another program called "HULLFORM"
or something like that, which may or may not be Carlson's program. In the
Bolger e-group there appears to be a file for a program which may or may not
be the same or a similar program. I haven't the courage to try either. I
successfully down-loaded a program offered by a French man called "Carene50"
or some such, but haven't really tried to figure out how to use it. I offer a
word of caution - if you don't know what you are doing in down-loading
programs off the internet (and I most assuredly do not know what I am doing)
it is possible to inadvertantly do something or somethings which will
thoroughly annoy the internet-saavy poster whose generosity you wish to avail
yourself of.
Ciao for niao;
Bill in Eden Prairie, MN
paquette@...writes:
<< Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
design? >>
All of Bolger's books, IMHO, make for very enlightening reading. His
excellent prose style can lull one into reading with pleasure and not quite
grasping all of the implications of his sometimes very condensed opinions. I
find that most of his stuff bears periodic re-reading - at least for me - I
often take note of a detail on re-reading that simply passed under the radar
on first or even second reading.
Jeff Gilbert has has "a Hons degree with a triple major in Maths, Applied
Maths & Stats." (He also claims to have a Ph.D. in Miscalculation). In a
prior exchange, he suggested that I might profit by a design course offered
by "McNaughton's Boatyard, Eastport". I don't know if this a mail-order, or
online class or whether Jeff is taking it.
As far as primers on naval architecture go, I don't have any recommendations
to make and I'm not sure one isn't pretty much similar to the other. I have
a copy of "Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships" by Cyrus Hamlin, N.A.,
Cornell Maritime Press, 1989, which covers the basics at a pretty high level
of generality. If you get hooked on thinking about boat design you will want
more than a couple of reference books - I'd suggest starting with the Duluth
public library and the inter-library loan program before parting with hard
cash.
A book I like that is out of print, but in circulation in the Hennepin
County Library system, Weston Farmer's "From The (or My) Old Boathouse".
This is not a design primer, but more-or-less the memoirs of a
semi-self-taught designer from an era before professionalization of boat
design. He gives some interesting and entertaining accounts of tackling
design problems with very rudimentary tools by modern standards, but with
considerable ingenuity. If I run across a copy in a used book store, I''ll
snap it up in a minute to have his observations regarding crude tests with
models handy for reference. He eventually ended up residing in Wayzata, MN.
Jim Michalak has a number of very interesting articles on boat design posted
on the web. The URL:http://www.apci.net?~michalak/#indexwill get you
started, I think. I recently read his articles on water ballast with
considerable interest. His material seems to be spread about on at least
three sites on the internet and I find navigating a bit frustrating at times,
but I'm a certifiable computer incompetent.
Finally, I would suggest that a computer boat design program can be a lot of
fun. These allow you to play with design parameters without the need of a
drafting table, splines, etc. It also performs a lot of mathematical
calculations quickly and automatically, which permits one to experiment and
to make many more "mistakes" in a much shorter period of time.
I have an edition of "PLYBOATS" by Ray Clark - its available on the internet
and regularly advertised in "Wooden Boat". I mail-ordered it on a floppy
disk and it came with a pretty good (print) users' manual, at a price of $50,
if recollection serves. The constraints that it puts on shapes probably make
it unacceptable to any serious designer or would-be designer, but the same
constraints make it easy and quick for a diletante to "design" simple boats.
It automatically calculates and displays displacement, righting moment a
various degrees of heel, prismatic coefficients and probably some other
quantities that elude immediate recall. I can only give it a qualified
endorsement however as my computer goes into total brain-lock when I ask it
to print the panel expansions. This is a disappointment, as I hoped to use
this functions to build small models of "Bolgeresque" boats. Although Ray
Clark wasn't able to diagnose my particular problem, evidently most other
purchasers can use this function with their ink-jet printers with
satisfaction.
There are at least a few free-ware programs on the net. Our Moderator, Greg
Carlson, has one available on his web site. Milchalak's site somewhere
offers a trial down load of "PLYBOATS", and another program called "HULLFORM"
or something like that, which may or may not be Carlson's program. In the
Bolger e-group there appears to be a file for a program which may or may not
be the same or a similar program. I haven't the courage to try either. I
successfully down-loaded a program offered by a French man called "Carene50"
or some such, but haven't really tried to figure out how to use it. I offer a
word of caution - if you don't know what you are doing in down-loading
programs off the internet (and I most assuredly do not know what I am doing)
it is possible to inadvertantly do something or somethings which will
thoroughly annoy the internet-saavy poster whose generosity you wish to avail
yourself of.
Ciao for niao;
Bill in Eden Prairie, MN
Boat design books:
"How to design a boat" by John Teale. This is about the simplest. It should
be fine for simple boats up to about 20'. My only real complaint is that it
is so brief that you really have to fill in with info from other places
here and there. I would say it is a re-write of his earlier book which is
more indiosycratic and perhaps more fun. They cover the same material, more
or less.
"Principles of Yacht Design" by Lars larsson and Rolf E. Eliasson. Much
more complicated. More focused on larger high-performance yachts. They give
quite an overview on the advanced math but probably not quite enough for it
to really be considered a complete text.
I would say that Teale is at the high school senior level, Larsson is at
the College senior level, maybe even a step up.
Peter
"How to design a boat" by John Teale. This is about the simplest. It should
be fine for simple boats up to about 20'. My only real complaint is that it
is so brief that you really have to fill in with info from other places
here and there. I would say it is a re-write of his earlier book which is
more indiosycratic and perhaps more fun. They cover the same material, more
or less.
"Principles of Yacht Design" by Lars larsson and Rolf E. Eliasson. Much
more complicated. More focused on larger high-performance yachts. They give
quite an overview on the advanced math but probably not quite enough for it
to really be considered a complete text.
I would say that Teale is at the high school senior level, Larsson is at
the College senior level, maybe even a step up.
Peter
Nice old pic...
Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
design?
I am thinking of playing around with designing some very simples boats
for myself and having some of the basics in design in front of me might
help.
Mark in MN
"c. o'donnell" <dadadat-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3880
Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
design?
I am thinking of playing around with designing some very simples boats
for myself and having some of the basics in design in front of me might
help.
Mark in MN
"c. o'donnell" <dadadat-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3880
>yard.
> I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
> what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders
Craig,
Where do you dig up all these ancient pics? I find it almost more
inspiring to see questionable examples of old boats as I do the
beautiful ones. Wonder what that says about my building? I'm not going
there.....
Thanks for the pic.
David
"C. O'Donnell" wrote:
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
Where do you dig up all these ancient pics? I find it almost more
inspiring to see questionable examples of old boats as I do the
beautiful ones. Wonder what that says about my building? I'm not going
there.....
Thanks for the pic.
David
"C. O'Donnell" wrote:
>--
>
> I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
> what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard.
>
> No prizes for fairness on this one, and note that instead of a curve up
> to the stern it's like someone started building a scow and decided in
> the middle to wind up with a sharpie, so they made a pointed bow and a
> rounded stern.
>
> No reports on how it sailed, maybe well, maybe not <chuckle> but for
> sure not every sharpie was a nice as the ones Chapelle drew.
> Hydrodynamically that scow-rake stern probably didn't make a whole lot
> of difference.
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
I will put in the vault "nc_sharpie.jpg", a scan of an old picture of
what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard.
No prizes for fairness on this one, and note that instead of a curve up
to the stern it's like someone started building a scow and decided in
the middle to wind up with a sharpie, so they made a pointed bow and a
rounded stern.
No reports on how it sailed, maybe well, maybe not <chuckle> but for
sure not every sharpie was a nice as the ones Chapelle drew.
Hydrodynamically that scow-rake stern probably didn't make a whole lot
of difference.
what seems to be a 25-ish ft sharpie in a North Carolina builders yard.
No prizes for fairness on this one, and note that instead of a curve up
to the stern it's like someone started building a scow and decided in
the middle to wind up with a sharpie, so they made a pointed bow and a
rounded stern.
No reports on how it sailed, maybe well, maybe not <chuckle> but for
sure not every sharpie was a nice as the ones Chapelle drew.
Hydrodynamically that scow-rake stern probably didn't make a whole lot
of difference.
> Mark Paquette <paquette@...>Mark,
>asks
>Speaking of boat designs, can anyone recommend some good books on boat
>design?
I guess whats "good" depends on your taste in boats, your local
conditions, & how far advanced you are :
1/ Beginner, 2/ Advanced, or 3/ Comprehensively Confused.
Assuming 1/ a couple of Primers which I found gave a good oveview are
1/ "Understanding Boat Design" by Ted Brewer (4th Ed)
2/ "Design your own Yacht" by Ben Smith.
I'm sure this Group can rake you up a veritable Library!
Good luck
Jeff Gilbert.