[bolger] Re: drying mast timer/old violins

Whilst scientific studies can show changes in cell structure due to
immersion they can not prove that this causes the sound to be better. The
only one could prove this would be to have 2 strads made from identical
pieces of wood, one immersed and one not. I guess you'd have to say that
violins, like boats are all unique, fashioned as they are from wood with
infinitely varied characteristics.
Nice to know that Bolgerites are interested in such things
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: David Jost <djost@...>
To:bolger@...<bolger@...>
Date: Monday, 27 March 2000 13:39
Subject: [bolger] Re: drying mast timer/old violins


>the publication Scientific American did a study on Strads/amatis etc. .
>. and they discovered that there actually was a change in the cell
>walls from the immersion in water that gave the instruments a great
>sound. there are people out there looking for sunken logs and such to
>use in violin making here in the US. Not my idea of a great job, but
>somebodies got to do it.
> When my Micro gets too old to sail, I will fit it with a neck and
>bridge and use it as a contrabass.
>
>David Jost 'celebrating 2 successive days of mast glueing. One more
>to go for the main spar"
>
>"greg squire" <gre-@...> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3930
>> Hi
>> Another Kiwi writing in.
>> As the owner of an old italian violin I can assure all that none of
>the
>> immersion stuff written on the wood used by the Cremonese violin
>makers has
>> much to do with the longevity or excellence of the instruments.
>> The wood legend has to do with the fact that most forests were found
>on land
>> too hilly to be used for farming and logs were floated downstream in
>time
>> honoured fashion to Venice principally for use by boat builders.
>> Wood that had too curly a grain was cheap and for fiddle makers this
>was a
>> great way of cutting costs and at the same time producing an
>instrument with
>> an individual and striking look.
>> I say this with a certain disappointment as my violin, although worth
>the
>> equivalent of, let's say 50 micros, has a very plain even grain to
>which the
>> maker added a fake 'flame' with a paintbrush.
>> It has, however survived the 250 years since it's birth and will
>probably
>> last another 250.
>> Anyone around out ther sailing in a 250 year old boat?
>> I rest my case!
>> Greg
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Jost <djost@...>
>> To:bolger@...<bolger@...>
>> Date: Sunday, 26 March 2000 15:16
>> Subject: [bolger] Re: drying mast timer/old violins
>>
>>
>> >Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so
>good.
>> >The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around Venice.
>> >These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating
>in
>> >their treatment of the timber at hand.
>> >
>> >"edward haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
>> >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3917
>> >> Hi David,
>> >>
>> >> The oldtimers dried wood underwater. You sink it until the sap is
>> >replaced
>> >> with water. Then you dry (cure) slowly. Fewer checks that way.
>> >Otherwise a
>> >> whole round is bound to open up, no matter how many tarps. Cut it
>in
>> >winter.
>> >> The oldtimers also said a mast was not weakened by checks. I have
>> >seen some
>> >> deep ones in skipjack masts. Be advised they are work boats.
>> >>
>> >> My own experience somewhat confirms that. A piece of gum and a
>piece
>> >of
>> >> locust. The gum I cured in the attic, made it an oar, got checks
>but
>> >plenty
>> >> of strength too. The locust I used as a pier piling for 15 years.
>> >When I
>> >> pulled it up it did not open when dry. So, I dunno, the oldtimers
>> >might have
>> >> been right.
>> >>
>> >> ED HAILE
>> >> Noticing the drop off in traffic here now that the dogwoods are
>> >nearly out
>> >> on the Chesapeake.
>> >>
>> >> >I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at
>base
>> >> >and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast
>for
>> >> >something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall
>you
>> >> >strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not
>sure?
>> >> >david beede
>> >> >(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake
>Swan)
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >
>> >> >SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
>> >> >Feed someone.
>> >> >http://www.thehungersite.com/
>> >> >Save a little rain forest.
>> >> >http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
>> >> >
>> >> >Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
>> >> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
>> >> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
>> >> >Here's my latest boat:
>> >> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
>> >> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
>> >> >Quasi esoteric musical instruments
>> >> >http://unicornstrings.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
>Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/2121/6/_/3457/_/954121179/
>
>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
>--http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>
>
the publication Scientific American did a study on Strads/amatis etc. .
. and they discovered that there actually was a change in the cell
walls from the immersion in water that gave the instruments a great
sound. there are people out there looking for sunken logs and such to
use in violin making here in the US. Not my idea of a great job, but
somebodies got to do it.
When my Micro gets too old to sail, I will fit it with a neck and
bridge and use it as a contrabass.

David Jost 'celebrating 2 successive days of mast glueing. One more
to go for the main spar"

"greg squire" <gre-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3930
> Hi
> Another Kiwi writing in.
> As the owner of an old italian violin I can assure all that none of
the
> immersion stuff written on the wood used by the Cremonese violin
makers has
> much to do with the longevity or excellence of the instruments.
> The wood legend has to do with the fact that most forests were found
on land
> too hilly to be used for farming and logs were floated downstream in
time
> honoured fashion to Venice principally for use by boat builders.
> Wood that had too curly a grain was cheap and for fiddle makers this
was a
> great way of cutting costs and at the same time producing an
instrument with
> an individual and striking look.
> I say this with a certain disappointment as my violin, although worth
the
> equivalent of, let's say 50 micros, has a very plain even grain to
which the
> maker added a fake 'flame' with a paintbrush.
> It has, however survived the 250 years since it's birth and will
probably
> last another 250.
> Anyone around out ther sailing in a 250 year old boat?
> I rest my case!
> Greg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Jost <djost@...>
> To:bolger@...<bolger@...>
> Date: Sunday, 26 March 2000 15:16
> Subject: [bolger] Re: drying mast timer/old violins
>
>
> >Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so
good.
> >The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around Venice.
> >These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating
in
> >their treatment of the timber at hand.
> >
> >"edward haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
> >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3917
> >> Hi David,
> >>
> >> The oldtimers dried wood underwater. You sink it until the sap is
> >replaced
> >> with water. Then you dry (cure) slowly. Fewer checks that way.
> >Otherwise a
> >> whole round is bound to open up, no matter how many tarps. Cut it
in
> >winter.
> >> The oldtimers also said a mast was not weakened by checks. I have
> >seen some
> >> deep ones in skipjack masts. Be advised they are work boats.
> >>
> >> My own experience somewhat confirms that. A piece of gum and a
piece
> >of
> >> locust. The gum I cured in the attic, made it an oar, got checks
but
> >plenty
> >> of strength too. The locust I used as a pier piling for 15 years.
> >When I
> >> pulled it up it did not open when dry. So, I dunno, the oldtimers
> >might have
> >> been right.
> >>
> >> ED HAILE
> >> Noticing the drop off in traffic here now that the dogwoods are
> >nearly out
> >> on the Chesapeake.
> >>
> >> >I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at
base
> >> >and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast
for
> >> >something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall
you
> >> >strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not
sure?
> >> >david beede
> >> >(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake
Swan)
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >
> >> >SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
> >> >Feed someone.
> >> >http://www.thehungersite.com/
> >> >Save a little rain forest.
> >> >http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
> >> >
> >> >Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
> >> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
> >> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
> >> >Here's my latest boat:
> >> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
> >> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
> >> >Quasi esoteric musical instruments
> >> >http://unicornstrings.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
Hi
Another Kiwi writing in.
As the owner of an old italian violin I can assure all that none of the
immersion stuff written on the wood used by the Cremonese violin makers has
much to do with the longevity or excellence of the instruments.
The wood legend has to do with the fact that most forests were found on land
too hilly to be used for farming and logs were floated downstream in time
honoured fashion to Venice principally for use by boat builders.
Wood that had too curly a grain was cheap and for fiddle makers this was a
great way of cutting costs and at the same time producing an instrument with
an individual and striking look.
I say this with a certain disappointment as my violin, although worth the
equivalent of, let's say 50 micros, has a very plain even grain to which the
maker added a fake 'flame' with a paintbrush.
It has, however survived the 250 years since it's birth and will probably
last another 250.
Anyone around out ther sailing in a 250 year old boat?
I rest my case!
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: David Jost <djost@...>
To:bolger@...<bolger@...>
Date: Sunday, 26 March 2000 15:16
Subject: [bolger] Re: drying mast timer/old violins


>Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so good.
>The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around Venice.
>These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating in
>their treatment of the timber at hand.
>
>"edward haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
>original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3917
>> Hi David,
>>
>> The oldtimers dried wood underwater. You sink it until the sap is
>replaced
>> with water. Then you dry (cure) slowly. Fewer checks that way.
>Otherwise a
>> whole round is bound to open up, no matter how many tarps. Cut it in
>winter.
>> The oldtimers also said a mast was not weakened by checks. I have
>seen some
>> deep ones in skipjack masts. Be advised they are work boats.
>>
>> My own experience somewhat confirms that. A piece of gum and a piece
>of
>> locust. The gum I cured in the attic, made it an oar, got checks but
>plenty
>> of strength too. The locust I used as a pier piling for 15 years.
>When I
>> pulled it up it did not open when dry. So, I dunno, the oldtimers
>might have
>> been right.
>>
>> ED HAILE
>> Noticing the drop off in traffic here now that the dogwoods are
>nearly out
>> on the Chesapeake.
>>
>> >I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
>> >and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
>> >something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
>> >strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
>> >david beede
>> >(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake Swan)
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
>> >Feed someone.
>> >http://www.thehungersite.com/
>> >Save a little rain forest.
>> >http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
>> >
>> >Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
>> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
>> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
>> >Here's my latest boat:
>> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
>> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
>> >Quasi esoteric musical instruments
>> >http://unicornstrings.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 2.9%
>Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/936/6/_/3457/_/954040576/
>
>-- Check out your group's private Chat room
>--http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
>
>
>
I suspect that this is where the whole concept of "tuning the rig"
started from. I am tuning mine to A440.

"lincoln ross" <lincoln-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3923
> "david jost" <djos-@...> wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3919
> > Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so
> good.
> > The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around
Venice.
> > These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating
> in
> > their treatment of the timber at hand.
> >
> >
> If you build your mast this way, you won't need an anemometer, just a
> pitch pipe.
>
"david jost" <djos-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3919
> Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so
good.
> The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around Venice.
> These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating
in
> their treatment of the timber at hand.
>
>
If you build your mast this way, you won't need an anemometer, just a
pitch pipe.
Aha! that is precisely why the old Stradivarius violins were so good.
The wood was stabilized by its immerision in the water around Venice.
These old violin makers were either very lucky, or very calculating in
their treatment of the timber at hand.

"edward haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3917
> Hi David,
>
> The oldtimers dried wood underwater. You sink it until the sap is
replaced
> with water. Then you dry (cure) slowly. Fewer checks that way.
Otherwise a
> whole round is bound to open up, no matter how many tarps. Cut it in
winter.
> The oldtimers also said a mast was not weakened by checks. I have
seen some
> deep ones in skipjack masts. Be advised they are work boats.
>
> My own experience somewhat confirms that. A piece of gum and a piece
of
> locust. The gum I cured in the attic, made it an oar, got checks but
plenty
> of strength too. The locust I used as a pier piling for 15 years.
When I
> pulled it up it did not open when dry. So, I dunno, the oldtimers
might have
> been right.
>
> ED HAILE
> Noticing the drop off in traffic here now that the dogwoods are
nearly out
> on the Chesapeake.
>
> >I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
> >and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
> >something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
> >strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
> >david beede
> >(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake Swan)
> >
> >--
> >
> >SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
> >Feed someone.
> >http://www.thehungersite.com/
> >Save a little rain forest.
> >http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
> >
> >Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
> >Here's my latest boat:
> >http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
> >http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
> >Quasi esoteric musical instruments
> >http://unicornstrings.com
> >
> >
> >
Hi David,

The oldtimers dried wood underwater. You sink it until the sap is replaced
with water. Then you dry (cure) slowly. Fewer checks that way. Otherwise a
whole round is bound to open up, no matter how many tarps. Cut it in winter.
The oldtimers also said a mast was not weakened by checks. I have seen some
deep ones in skipjack masts. Be advised they are work boats.

My own experience somewhat confirms that. A piece of gum and a piece of
locust. The gum I cured in the attic, made it an oar, got checks but plenty
of strength too. The locust I used as a pier piling for 15 years. When I
pulled it up it did not open when dry. So, I dunno, the oldtimers might have
been right.

ED HAILE
Noticing the drop off in traffic here now that the dogwoods are nearly out
on the Chesapeake.

>I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
>and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
>something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
>strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
>david beede
>(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake Swan)
>
>--
>
>SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
>Feed someone.
>http://www.thehungersite.com/
>Save a little rain forest.
>http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
>
>Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
>http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
>Here's my latest boat:
>http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
>Quasi esoteric musical instruments
>http://unicornstrings.com
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>DON'T HATE YOUR RATE!
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
>Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/2120/6/_/3457/_/953922109/
>
>eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
>
>

______________________________________________________
My limited understanding of wood says that the thinner the piece, the
less likely it is to split. Also, that it should dry slowly, RELATIVE
TO THE THICKNESS OF THE PIECE. So if you know what size you want you
can get it somewhere near that ahead of time to speed drying and reduce
risk of splitting. Of course, it's easier to keep straight if you don't
narrow it.

david beede <juliej-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3900
> I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
> and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
> something someday. Any clues on how to dry it?
snip
David, George Buehler recommends to chop down the tree in winter,
remove branches and bark immediately, paint both ends with tar or thick
paint and store it under a tarp. Put it on supports to keep it
straight, and once every few months coat it with oil and turn it along
the lenght axis.
Best, Pippo

david beede <juliej-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3900
> I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
> and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
> something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
> strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
Try this web site for information about cutting and drying wood. It is
overseen by a professional:http://www.woodweb.com/~industry/saw-dry/

As I remember, the key to processing is to not allow the wood to dry rapidly.
To that end a heavy, moisture impermable coating should be put on the end to
seal the grain.

Regards, Warren
In a message dated 3/24/2000 1:22:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
juliejj@...writes:

<< I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
david beede
(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop >>

Not an expert here - but I think it will check - I think you need to cut
something larger and rip it into planks - let them air dry and then glue them
back together. Steve
Hi David. Sounds like a great piece of wood. Hopefully a master mast maker
will respond to your question. My guess is that it'll dry best very slowly
in shaded open air conditions. I don't know how much similarity there is
between Florida cedar and BC red cedar. Is the Florida variety what we call
cypress? BC red will dry quite nicely right in the woods where it fell if
laid on skids to keep it straight and off the ground. Two years of open air
drying will probably shed about 70% of the moisture. Mold that will grow on
the surface will do no real harm. Lengthwise cracks are sure to occur, but
supposedly don't weaken the timber. Stipping the bark would be my
inclination. If the tree is healthy the bark will come off very easily
immediately after falling. But there might be an argument for leaving it on.
The minor damage bugs will do under the bark might be less than that caused
by rapid evaporation of the sap wood while the inner wood drys more slowly.
Myself and two frinds built a large log house completely out of BC red cedar
many years ago. At most we let the logs dry for six months. Once the house
was together and a woodstove was going the logs started to check. Over the
course of the first winter every single one of the roughly 200 logs suddenly
opened up with a "CRACK" that sounded like a 22 going off in the house.
Sometimes it sounded like a war zone in the middle of the night. Is this
tree coming down to clear room for the new shop? It would fit nicely in your
32' building. But I wouldn't recommend it if you're going to heat the space.
At least not for the first two years. I'll be watching to see if you get
some advice from someone people who really know what their talking about.

jeb, grabbing every opportunity to talk about any aspect of boat building
while waiting for spring to really arrive on the shores of Fundy



At 01:34 PM 3/24/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
>and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
>something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
>strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
>david beede
>(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake Swan)
>
>--
>
>SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
>Feed someone.
>http://www.thehungersite.com/
>Save a little rain forest.
>http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296
>
>Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
>http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
>Here's my latest boat:
>http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
>http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
>Quasi esoteric musical instruments
>http://unicornstrings.com
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>DON'T HATE YOUR RATE!
>Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as
>0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
>Apply NOW!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/2120/6/_/3457/_/953922109/
>
>eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
I'm needing to cut down a 30' cedar tree that is about 8" dia at base
and straight as an arrow. I'm thinking it might make a great mast for
something someday. Any clues on how to dry it? I think I recall you
strip off the bark and seal the ends with paraffin, but I'm not sure?
david beede
(playing lumberjack to build my boatshop on the shore of Lake Swan)

--

SOME CLICKS THAT COUNT!!
Feed someone.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Save a little rain forest.
http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player12296

Simplicity Boats (& mirror sites)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/index.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/index.html
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
http://unicornstrings.com
David,
try an open D on the side stays. I find it
gives a more "soulful" feeling to one's sailing.
Jeff Gilbert
jgilbert@...

>David Jost <djost@...> reckons ==>
>I suspect that this is where the whole concept of "tuning the rig".
>started from. I am tuning mine to A440.