Re: [bolger] Re: Concrete Oldshoe Keel and Shot as Keel Weight

> stick it togather as succesive molten pours won't adhere that well
> anyhow(maybe someone who has done this beat on there casting a bit
> and can clarify wether this is a myth(bruce?).

I did three successive pours, and the layers stuck together good
enough. The 'stick together' is better if the lead is hotter than
just barely melted. With the Micro ballast keel, you drive nails
through the sheathing into the lead on 6" centers, so even if
there is some separation of the layers of successive pours,
the separation gets stuck together with the nails.

What is the ratio of volumes of solid lead spheres to bulk volume of
"spheres in a mold?"
Is it (4/3 x pi x R^3) / D^3 ? What is the decimal equivalent? That
should be the ratio of masses also. - Bill K

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Stancil [mailto:jasonstancil@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 5:55
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Concrete Oldshoe Keel and Shot as Keel Weight

> I think people are not realizing that only a small amount of epoxy

is needed to bond the lead shot. It was a time ago now, but I doubt I

> used more than 2 pints for the whole keel, probably less.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
yep,
Nothing easier than this method. i used about 2 quarts and most of
that was poured ontop of the lead after it had been beded
down......thinking it would fill some voids and lock it together a
bit better. I guess there weren't too many voids cause i had to
scrape out most of it as it would settle down and was pooled up
where the batten would eventially lay. My theory is if you can melt
it all at once and pour it great. If not epoxy is a great way to
stick it togather as succesive molten pours won't adhere that well
anyhow(maybe someone who has done this beat on there casting a bit
and can clarify wether this is a myth(bruce?). Thanks Don for piping
up.......he's the one that sold me on the method and i couldn't be
happier for the time, money and effort invested.
Jason

Whatever, just build your oldshoes and post some pictures! better
yet come over to my place and work on my boat so i can get it in the
water before november :)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I think people are not realizing that only a small amount of epoxy

is needed to bond the lead shot. It was a time ago now, but I doubt I

> used more than 2 pints for the whole keel, probably less.

> I think people are not realizing that only a small amount of epoxy

is needed to bond the lead shot. It was a time ago now, but I doubt I

> used more than 2 pints for the whole keel, probably less.

I think people are not realizing that only a small amount of epoxy is
needed to bond the lead shot. It was a time ago now, but I doubt I
used more than 2 pints for the whole keel, probably less. And that
boat stood terrible bashing and pounding. I widened the keel just a
little to make up for the lower density compared with poured lead.
DonB

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, grant corson <corson@a...> wrote:
> What would happen if the lead shot were to be put into a form and a
propane
> torch, the kind plumbers use were to be played over the surface of
the shot,
> wouldn't it melt together and eliminate the need for epoxy and also
keep it
> in an easily recyclable state . Of course I realize it depends on
what kind
> of form it is in due to the possibility of fire, but the lead melts so
> quickly I wouldn't think it would be a problem is care was taken, just a
> thought, Grant
>
> on 9/21/04 12:00 PM, Jason Stancil at jasonstancil@h... wrote:
>
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quohog@a...> wrote:
> >> I've been following this discussion with interest and a smile. And
> > a
> >> little bit of a shudder. As a past competitive Trap & Skeet
> > shooter I
> >> can think of a lot better uses for #9 chilled shot.
> >
> > I used to shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays until about 7 years
> > ago. When i quit my dad quit. The MEC and pointise(sp) reloaders
> > have been under wraps ever since. I knew if i didn't use those dusty
> > bags fast my brother in law would go spray down the woods with the
> > stuff. Not sure what i was thinking spreading toxic heavy metals all
> > over God's green earth.......what ever happened to that Bismuth fad.
> > I used all the 9s and 8s i could find and left the Bro in Law the
> > 7.5 and larger. Ballast, such a higher calling for lead :) forever
> > safely encapsulated in an epoxy tomb. Actually my only concern about
> > not melting the stuff was it can't be recycle into another boat
> > (easily) and can't be sold as scrap when the boat has surved it's
> > purpose.
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax:
> > (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>grant corson wrote:
> What would happen if the lead shot
> were to be put into a form and a propane
> torch, ...wouldn't it melt together(?)

What could be easier/cheaper than
taking 200 pounds of scrap lead,
putting it in a metal bucket, and
building a fire underneath?

Most of this discussion thread amounts
to finding a more complex (and expensive)
method to cast a lead ballast. The old
fashion method has already been proven
simple and cheap a thousand times over
in backyard boat shops everywhere.

What would happen if the lead shot were to be put into a form and a propane
torch, the kind plumbers use were to be played over the surface of the shot,
wouldn't it melt together and eliminate the need for epoxy and also keep it
in an easily recyclable state . Of course I realize it depends on what kind
of form it is in due to the possibility of fire, but the lead melts so
quickly I wouldn't think it would be a problem is care was taken, just a
thought, Grant

on 9/21/04 12:00 PM, Jason Stancil atjasonstancil@...wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quohog@a...> wrote:
>> I've been following this discussion with interest and a smile. And
> a
>> little bit of a shudder. As a past competitive Trap & Skeet
> shooter I
>> can think of a lot better uses for #9 chilled shot.
>
> I used to shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays until about 7 years
> ago. When i quit my dad quit. The MEC and pointise(sp) reloaders
> have been under wraps ever since. I knew if i didn't use those dusty
> bags fast my brother in law would go spray down the woods with the
> stuff. Not sure what i was thinking spreading toxic heavy metals all
> over God's green earth.......what ever happened to that Bismuth fad.
> I used all the 9s and 8s i could find and left the Bro in Law the
> 7.5 and larger. Ballast, such a higher calling for lead :) forever
> safely encapsulated in an epoxy tomb. Actually my only concern about
> not melting the stuff was it can't be recycle into another boat
> (easily) and can't be sold as scrap when the boat has surved it's
> purpose.
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> Garden suggests getting really big chunks of iron or steel to hide
> in the middle of the concrete - sections of rail track or I-beam-
> and having a coating of pure concrete an inch or so think all

around

> to keep the water away from the metal.

I know there are plenty of solid concrete and rebar dams out there.
If my basement is any indication of how good a water sealer concrete
is(the micro launched itself twice in the tranquil waters of my
basement), i don't beleive an inch of the stuff is going to protect
iron ballast in the long run.

Jason
PS did you know the bare hull of a micro can float in 4 inches of
water?........made repositioning easy. But, it was kind of wierd
having to put it on a mooring in the house :)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Magen" <quohog@a...> wrote:

> I've been following this discussion with interest and a smile. And

> little bit of a shudder. As a past competitive Trap & Skeet

shooter I

> can think of a lot better uses for #9 chilled shot.

I used to shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays until about 7 years
ago. When i quit my dad quit. The MEC and pointise(sp) reloaders
have been under wraps ever since. I knew if i didn't use those dusty
bags fast my brother in law would go spray down the woods with the
stuff. Not sure what i was thinking spreading toxic heavy metals all
over God's green earth.......what ever happened to that Bismuth fad.
I used all the 9s and 8s i could find and left the Bro in Law the
7.5 and larger. Ballast, such a higher calling for lead :) forever
safely encapsulated in an epoxy tomb. Actually my only concern about
not melting the stuff was it can't be recycle into another boat
(easily) and can't be sold as scrap when the boat has surved it's
purpose.
Jason

> With that last in mind I would want to use a mixture of
> concrete and boiler punchings {or washer punchings},
> if I could get them. I like the concentrated mass of wheel
> weights {they make damn good bullets} but might give them
> a 'bath' in epoxy first {expensive} or try to make
> 'pigs' of them with by mixing with polyester resin {much cheaper}.

William Garden has some discussion of concrete/iron ballast in one
of his books, including a comparison of weights and some general
advice. As I recall, the density with concrete + metal tops out at
about 200 lbs/cu ft, as compared to 700 lbs/cu ft for lead. Thus,
allowing for buoyancy of 64 lbs cu ft, you need a little over 4.5 cu
ft of concrete keel for every cu ft of lead keel. (All figures
approximate.)

Garden suggests getting really big chunks of iron or steel to hide
in the middle of the concrete - sections of rail track or I-beam-
and having a coating of pure concrete an inch or so think all around
to keep the water away from the metal.

Peter

I've been following this discussion with interest and a smile. And a
little bit of a shudder. As a past competitive Trap & Skeet shooter I
can think of a lot better uses for #9 chilled shot. I also remember when
a bag of shot was almost $25 . . . lead is a 'Commodity' and follows the
Market. In addition I've done a bit of bullet casting and remember how
careful I had to be with a 25 pound 'pot' . . .

For the 'correct answer', I bow to the 'Ultimate Scrounger' - George
Buehler. I have a 1991 edition of his book, 'Buehler's Backyard
Boatbuilding'. In his chapter on 'Keels and Ballast' he starts off by
stating that, '. . . the most intimidating part of building is casting
an iron or lead keel'. He then goes on to say that although lead can be
worked at home, ' . . . it's a pricey proposition.'. Not only is the
lead expensive, but you have to use BRONZE bolts & screws to avoid
electrolysis. This is followed by the concerns of cast iron keels &
foundries. Then he gets to the point - 'Fortunately, there is an
alternative - a keel cast from concrete AND scrap metal'. 'Bridge
rivets, horseshoes, boiler punchings - there's all sorts of steel out
there . . .'. He cautions against using lead - if water gets to it there
could be problems with electrolysis, unless you paint it with epoxy to
seal it.

With that last in mind I would want to use a mixture of concrete and
boiler punchings {or washer punchings}, if I could get them. I like the
concentrated mass of wheel weights {they make damn good bullets} but
might give them a 'bath' in epoxy first {expensive} or try to make
'pigs' of them with by mixing with polyester resin {much cheaper}. The
'pigs' would then be 'entombed' in the concrete. A ZINC-rich paint
*might* be the cheapest coating - longevity ???

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:15:08 -0500
> From: "Gabriel McAtee" <gmcatee@...>
> Subject: RE: Re: Concrete Oldshoe Keel
>
> Generally, the cheapest lead I have been able to find for other

projcts has

> been used tire balancing weights...

SNIP
and . . .
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:16:39 -0000
From: "dbaldnz" <oink@...>
Subject: Re: re lead shot as keel weight

Actually I installed some further ballast under the floor of my
Navigator. I got several boxes of steel washer punchings, (what causes
the hole in a washer), and cost just a few dollars.
SNIP