Re: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
Do you have any pictures of the process and the results?
HJ
dnjost wrote:
HJ
dnjost wrote:
>I installed lexan windows on my catboat that are held in place by
>window weatherstripping that can be purchased through an automotive
>place such as JC whitney. It was relatively easy to install and
>involved no compounds or goop. replacing the window will be very
>simple. No leaks to date.
>
>David Jost
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:The physics behind Bolgers reasoning for the seaworthlyness
> Cool boat but so radical you'd have to have a big set
> and some serious faith In Mr. B to use it for it's intended purpose.
of the Hassler #635 seems very sound. It is only a 20 foot
boat so the cost of building it wouldn't kill you either.
You certainly could run a bunch of coastal cruises to build
your faith in the boat design before sailing off to Tahiti too.
Good points! Modify the drill as you would for brass to prevent
digging in.
Doug
digging in.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Lucite/Plexiglas is much more susceptible to cracking. For drilling
it,
> blunt the drill so it is scraping rather than wedging. This should
work for
> Lexan/polycarbonate too if you're worried. Do turn it slow!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
the wrong button.
I was not aware that it was DOG drool. Nice to have a dog to blame
when certain things happen. Reminds of a Bill Cosby monologue I heard
one time:-)
Nels
wrote:
>> Oh yeah,Ooops - Sorry for the previous post - I started laughing and pushed
> Well send them back and i'll get my beast to drool on them and then
> i'll autograph them for you :)
> Jason, waiting to see what Nels Long Micro Navigator will look like
the wrong button.
I was not aware that it was DOG drool. Nice to have a dog to blame
when certain things happen. Reminds of a Bill Cosby monologue I heard
one time:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
wrote:
>
> > No need to apologize for the plan sheets as I am just kidding.
> They
> > will be amongst my most cherished collector's items;-)
> >
> > Cheers, Nels
> ****************************
> Oh yeah,
> Well send them back and i'll get my beast to drool on them and then
> i'll autograph them for you :)
> Jason, waiting to see what Nels Long Micro Navigator will look like
> No need to apologize for the plan sheets as I am just kidding.They
> will be amongst my most cherished collector's items;-)****************************
>
> Cheers, Nels
Oh yeah,
Well send them back and i'll get my beast to drool on them and then
i'll autograph them for you :)
Jason, waiting to see what Nels Long Micro Navigator will look like
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
He only mentioned it briefly and stated he had no time to look at it
yet, I will see if I can locate the fax.
If is far too complicated for my requirements compared to LONG MICRO.
No need to apologize for the plan sheets as I am just kidding. They
will be amongst my most cherished collector's items;-)
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
> Nels-but
> How motivated was he for drawing a ply version? Steel is amazing
> i'm a fan of boats that don't sink ;) Was a steel bottom still theplans
> plan? Ballast to compensate for the fact the boat would weigh a
> third less? Cool boat but so radical you'd have to have a big set
> and some serious faith In Mr. B to use it for it's intended purpose.
> Do tell,
> Jason, still sorry about my paw print crinkled tax inducing nav
He only mentioned it briefly and stated he had no time to look at it
yet, I will see if I can locate the fax.
If is far too complicated for my requirements compared to LONG MICRO.
No need to apologize for the plan sheets as I am just kidding. They
will be amongst my most cherished collector's items;-)
Cheers, Nels
*
Nels-
How motivated was he for drawing a ply version? Steel is amazing but
i'm a fan of boats that don't sink ;) Was a steel bottom still the
plan? Ballast to compensate for the fact the boat would weigh a
third less? Cool boat but so radical you'd have to have a big set
and some serious faith In Mr. B to use it for it's intended purpose.
Do tell,
Jason, still sorry about my paw print crinkled tax inducing nav plans
> Mr. Bolger has mentioned that he may be drawing it for plywood(snip)
> building, since there has been not much response to the steel
> version. He suggested it to me instead of a Long Micro Nav
> modification.
>
> Cheers, Nels
Nels-
How motivated was he for drawing a ply version? Steel is amazing but
i'm a fan of boats that don't sink ;) Was a steel bottom still the
plan? Ballast to compensate for the fact the boat would weigh a
third less? Cool boat but so radical you'd have to have a big set
and some serious faith In Mr. B to use it for it's intended purpose.
Do tell,
Jason, still sorry about my paw print crinkled tax inducing nav plans
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:
give PCB&F a call or send them a fax. They are VERY motivated to get
one built and I am sure would provide all the information you could
ever want and then some.
Just as David and Susan of I60 fame:-)
Plywood would be my choice - with the steel bottom a la FIJI, but
steel or Aluminum would be awesome!
Cheers, Nels
> Thanks you. I had a look at that and their seems to be a page orI am pretty sure that is the complete article. If you are interested
> two missing. I have been able to read it allright however.
> I would be interested in building out of steel or alum.d
give PCB&F a call or send them a fax. They are VERY motivated to get
one built and I am sure would provide all the information you could
ever want and then some.
Just as David and Susan of I60 fame:-)
Plywood would be my choice - with the steel bottom a la FIJI, but
steel or Aluminum would be awesome!
Cheers, Nels
Lucite/Plexiglas is much more susceptible to cracking. For drilling it,
blunt the drill so it is scraping rather than wedging. This should work for
Lexan/polycarbonate too if you're worried. Do turn it slow!
(In a hurry with a Lexan safety enclosure, I made holes with a soldering gun
and cleaned them up with a round file.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
blunt the drill so it is scraping rather than wedging. This should work for
Lexan/polycarbonate too if you're worried. Do turn it slow!
(In a hurry with a Lexan safety enclosure, I made holes with a soldering gun
and cleaned them up with a round file.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "doug6949" <prototype@...>
> The cracks are usually started from the drilling process itself. Even
> hairline cracks will spread over time with flexing and UV exposure.
>
> Drilling isn't out of the question, it just isn't my preferred method.
>
> Doug
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>
> > I did some impromptu testing of my Lexan,
> > and I find it very hard to comprehend that
> > it would crack under any non-explosive
> > conditions.
> >
> > I had one 'crack' experience, when a piece
> > got back fed into my table saw blade
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
The cracks are usually started from the drilling process itself. Even
hairline cracks will spread over time with flexing and UV exposure.
Drilling isn't out of the question, it just isn't my preferred method.
Doug
hairline cracks will spread over time with flexing and UV exposure.
Drilling isn't out of the question, it just isn't my preferred method.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> I did some impromptu testing of my Lexan,
> and I find it very hard to comprehend that
> it would crack under any non-explosive
> conditions.
>
> I had one 'crack' experience, when a piece
> got back fed into my table saw blade
For a vessel used in protected waters this is probably the best means
of mounting windows. All thats necessary for bluewater service is the
provide secondary inner support to keep them from popping through.
Doug
of mounting windows. All thats necessary for bluewater service is the
provide secondary inner support to keep them from popping through.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
> I installed lexan windows on my catboat that are held in place by
> window weatherstripping that can be purchased through an automotive
> place such as JC whitney. It was relatively easy to install and
> involved no compounds or goop. replacing the window will be very
> simple. No leaks to date.
>
> David Jost
Thanks you. I had a look at that and their seems to be a page or
two missing. I have been able to read it allright however.
I would be interested in building out of steel or alum.d
two missing. I have been able to read it allright however.
I would be interested in building out of steel or alum.d
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
wrote:
> > Hello, Does anyone have the complete article of Bolger's "design
> for
> > a minimum world cruising single-hander".
> > It interestes me a great deal and I would love to read the
article
> > in it's entirety. Thank you.
>
> The entire article is in the files at Bolger3
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%
20Hasler/
>
> It is pretty hard to read it there, but I saved it to my desktop
and
> enlarged it enough to fit on an 81/2X11 page and it was readable.
>
> Mr. Bolger has mentioned that he may be drawing it for plywood
> building, since there has been not much response to the steel
> version. He suggested it to me instead of a Long Micro Nav
> modification.
>
> Cheers, Nels
Yes-
Storm boards can save more than windows or port lights--- they can save boats and lives-----j.e.fitch
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can be forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in a knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can be fixed into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but removed in calm weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed to sit up to 1 inch away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
Yes, he's a boating fanatic as well.
Jeff
Storm boards can save more than windows or port lights--- they can save boats and lives-----j.e.fitch
Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:
Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can be forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in a knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can be fixed into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but removed in calm weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed to sit up to 1 inch away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
Yes, he's a boating fanatic as well.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question about Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when under extreme stress but not under impact where it can rebound. Stress cracks are caused from constant stress 24/7 such as when a mounting hole is too small. Like all plastics it expands and contracts with temperature. But the biggest cause is the long term effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents and air pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear drill a tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a clear caulk.
He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending the
stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than solvent
glues or something.)
>"doug6949" <prototype@...>
>wrote:
>snip
>
>James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
>still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
>trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
>propagaters and are known for leaking.
>
>
>
snip
Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why not! That's an excellent thought!
Jeff
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Derby
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
I've been following this thread with great interest. Thanks, Jeff, for
going to an expert.
On the back-up bars, I was wondering if one could fit grab rails in the
proper place to kill two birds at once.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff" <boatbuilding@...>
> Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can be
forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in a
knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can be fixed
into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but removed in calm
weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed to sit up to 1 inch
away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
>
> I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question about
Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when under extreme
stress but not under impact where it can rebound. Stress cracks are caused
from constant stress 24/7 such as when a mounting hole is too small. Like
all plastics it expands and contracts with temperature. But the biggest
cause is the long term effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents
and air pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing
uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear drill a
tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a clear caulk.
>
> He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive
windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends
a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the
thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the
Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are
welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan
and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for
the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and
contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the
opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
>
> Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending
the
> stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
> circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than
solvent
> glues or something.)
>
> >"doug6949" <prototype@...>
> >wrote:
> >snip
> >
> >James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
> >still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
> >trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are
crack
> >propagaters and are known for leaking.
> >
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The way he described it was that the metal rod was bent around the Lexan panel to the same dimensions, since Lexan should always have rounded corners, metal rods work better than flat bar. The metal rods fit around the Lexan like a picture frame with a gap between the Lexan and rod to be at least the thickness of the Lexan. In otherwords you should have a 1/4" gap between the edge of the Lexan and the metal rod that would run around the outside edge. He said that the metal rod will bend fairly easy to match the radius of the Lexan panel. Especially if you cut the same curve in the Lexan corners as an 1 1/2" metal pipe. Then you can use the pipe to form the corners in the metal rod.
I can ask if pre-made forms are available but since most installations are custom, I would doubt it. On pre-fab windows using Lexan, they'd have integrated frames that do the same thing.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can ask if pre-made forms are available but since most installations are custom, I would doubt it. On pre-fab windows using Lexan, they'd have integrated frames that do the same thing.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been following this thread with great interest. Thanks, Jeff, for
going to an expert.
On the back-up bars, I was wondering if one could fit grab rails in the
proper place to kill two birds at once.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
going to an expert.
On the back-up bars, I was wondering if one could fit grab rails in the
proper place to kill two birds at once.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff" <boatbuilding@...>
> Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can be
forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in a
knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can be fixed
into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but removed in calm
weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed to sit up to 1 inch
away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
>
> I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question about
Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when under extreme
stress but not under impact where it can rebound. Stress cracks are caused
from constant stress 24/7 such as when a mounting hole is too small. Like
all plastics it expands and contracts with temperature. But the biggest
cause is the long term effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents
and air pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing
uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear drill a
tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a clear caulk.
>
> He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive
windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends
a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the
thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the
Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are
welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan
and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for
the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and
contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the
opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
>
> Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending
the
> stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
> circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than
solvent
> glues or something.)
>
> >"doug6949" <prototype@...>
> >wrote:
> >snip
> >
> >James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
> >still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
> >trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are
crack
> >propagaters and are known for leaking.
> >
Hi Jeff,
Would these bars be on the inside or outside of the window for a
boat? PCB&F have mentioned that plywood shutters can be added if one
feels they need the extra security. Also I suppose the shutters could
be lexan as well:-)
Here in Canada all our windows are double or triple glazed sealed
units for insulation purposes - so for a three season pilot house
this would be a consideration to help prevent condensation.
Did he say if you could buy pre-manufactured frames as you mentioned
in the previous post? Also - is the sealant applied to the frame or
to the lexan and how is the frame attached to the door or window?
Cheers, Nels
Would these bars be on the inside or outside of the window for a
boat? PCB&F have mentioned that plywood shutters can be added if one
feels they need the extra security. Also I suppose the shutters could
be lexan as well:-)
Here in Canada all our windows are double or triple glazed sealed
units for insulation purposes - so for a three season pilot house
this would be a consideration to help prevent condensation.
Did he say if you could buy pre-manufactured frames as you mentioned
in the previous post? Also - is the sealant applied to the frame or
to the lexan and how is the frame attached to the door or window?
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can
be forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in
a knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can
be fixed into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but
removed in calm weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed
to sit up to 1 inch away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
>
> Yes, he's a boating fanatic as well.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
>
>
>
> I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question
about Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when
under extreme stress but not under impact where it can rebound.
Stress cracks are caused from constant stress 24/7 such as when a
mounting hole is too small. Like all plastics it expands and
contracts with temperature. But the biggest cause is the long term
effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents and air
pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing
uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear
drill a tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a
clear caulk.
>
> He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive
windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he
recommends a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or
equal to the thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the
outside dimensions of the Lexan plus expansion space equal to the
thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are welded on every 8 inches or so to
fit on the outside surface of the lexan and opposing tabs to bolt to
the door / window frame. The main reason for the metal rod is to
mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and contraction and
to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the opening by
at least 4 times it's thickness.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lincoln Ross
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:22 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
>
>
> Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when
bending the
> stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
> circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other
than solvent
> glues or something.)
>
> >"doug6949" <prototype@c...>
> >wrote:
> >snip
> >
> >James Wharram used this method successfully for many years -
probably
> >still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane
with a
> >trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes
are crack
> >propagaters and are known for leaking.
> >
> >
> >
> snip
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Oh, I forgot to add that in high impact areas where the Lexan can be forced enough to bow inward like on a large boat window during in a knockdown, he recommends removable hardwood or steel bars that can be fixed into place every 12 inches during extreme weather but removed in calm weather for unobstructed views. They can be designed to sit up to 1 inch away from the Lexan so it can't rub and mar it.
Yes, he's a boating fanatic as well.
Jeff
Yes, he's a boating fanatic as well.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question about Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when under extreme stress but not under impact where it can rebound. Stress cracks are caused from constant stress 24/7 such as when a mounting hole is too small. Like all plastics it expands and contracts with temperature. But the biggest cause is the long term effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents and air pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear drill a tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a clear caulk.
He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending the
stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than solvent
glues or something.)
>"doug6949" <prototype@...>
>wrote:
>snip
>
>James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
>still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
>trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
>propagaters and are known for leaking.
>
>
>
snip
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I called a friend in the glazing business and asked this question about Lexan. He told me that Lexan will rarely crack but can when under extreme stress but not under impact where it can rebound. Stress cracks are caused from constant stress 24/7 such as when a mounting hole is too small. Like all plastics it expands and contracts with temperature. But the biggest cause is the long term effects of cleaners with alcohol and other solvents and air pollution. These things will harden the exposed surface causing uneven expansion and contractions. If a small crack should appear drill a tiny hole at the end of the crack to stop and fill with a clear caulk.
He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
Jeff
He recommends mounting lexan with an adhesive like automotive windshields. In doors or any place exposed to extreme impact, he recommends a steel or aluminum rod frame with a of 3/16" diameter or equal to the thickness of the Lexan. It should fit around the outside dimensions of the Lexan plus expansion space equal to the thickness of the Lexan. Tabs are welded on every 8 inches or so to fit on the outside surface of the lexan and opposing tabs to bolt to the door / window frame. The main reason for the metal rod is to mount the Lexan allowing it float with expansion and contraction and to protect the edges. Oh, and the Lexan should overlap the opening by at least 4 times it's thickness.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: Lincoln Ross
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Windows, was Design 635
Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending the
stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than solvent
glues or something.)
>"doug6949" <prototype@...>
>wrote:
>snip
>
>James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
>still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
>trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
>propagaters and are known for leaking.
>
>
>
snip
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ever see a crack propagate in Lexan? I haven't, except when bending the
stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than solvent
glues or something.)
stuff back on itself 180 degrees. Is there some environmental
circumstance that would make cracks propagate in it? (Other than solvent
glues or something.)
>"doug6949" <prototype@...>snip
>wrote:
>snip
>
>James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
>still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
>trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
>propagaters and are known for leaking.
>
>
>
I installed lexan windows on my catboat that are held in place by
window weatherstripping that can be purchased through an automotive
place such as JC whitney. It was relatively easy to install and
involved no compounds or goop. replacing the window will be very
simple. No leaks to date.
David Jost
window weatherstripping that can be purchased through an automotive
place such as JC whitney. It was relatively easy to install and
involved no compounds or goop. replacing the window will be very
simple. No leaks to date.
David Jost
Out at General Dynamics in Fort Worth I watched a video of the "chicken
cannon" tests on an aircraft canopy. The Lexan was probably 1" thick and
the (dead) chicken was propelled into it at over 200 mph. The question
wasn't whether the canopy would break, but whether the pilot's head was
sufficiently far back so he wouldn't be struck in the face. If I remember
right, the windscreen bulged aft some 18" or more, and then popped back into
shape. Yes, you do have to allow for deflection of the plastic. If it pops
out of its frame, all bets are off.
If you Google > Lexan bonding < you'll get lots of hits on adhesives and
techniques.
Plywood and steel are both much cheaper than polycarbonate, but it is
adequately "strong." Steel and Lexan are quite different. If you want
rigid, go with reinforced concrete.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
cannon" tests on an aircraft canopy. The Lexan was probably 1" thick and
the (dead) chicken was propelled into it at over 200 mph. The question
wasn't whether the canopy would break, but whether the pilot's head was
sufficiently far back so he wouldn't be struck in the face. If I remember
right, the windscreen bulged aft some 18" or more, and then popped back into
shape. Yes, you do have to allow for deflection of the plastic. If it pops
out of its frame, all bets are off.
If you Google > Lexan bonding < you'll get lots of hits on adhesives and
techniques.
Plywood and steel are both much cheaper than polycarbonate, but it is
adequately "strong." Steel and Lexan are quite different. If you want
rigid, go with reinforced concrete.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
> My main concern would be the way the Lexan is held in its frame. It's
> all very well to say it's as strong as steel (but I don't believe it,
> or even that it's as strong as 1/2" ply), but we don't build hulls
> out of steel panels held in frames with bedding compound. And if
> Lexan is such wonderful, economical stuff, why not build a whole boat
> out of it?
I just want to add that florda bay boats of peep/marsh/bay hen fame
used to offer an option of a lexan bottom so you could see what was
down there. I saw one that was about 10 years old and it was solid
and didn't leak a drop.........scratched and crazed so you had the
sea vision or mr. magoo but really neat. No worse for wear than the
gelcoat from repeated beachings. I thumped on it and guess it was
half inch thick.
Jason
used to offer an option of a lexan bottom so you could see what was
down there. I saw one that was about 10 years old and it was solid
and didn't leak a drop.........scratched and crazed so you had the
sea vision or mr. magoo but really neat. No worse for wear than the
gelcoat from repeated beachings. I thumped on it and guess it was
half inch thick.
Jason
> Howard StephensonDifficult to remove even with mastic.
> It wouldn't be too easy to replace if it were epoxied in
> place.
I accept, that if I ever need to remove my Lexan,
I will have to use a jigsaw to cut it out of the frame.
>Doug6949I did some impromptu testing of my Lexan,
> The holes are crack propagaters...
and I find it very hard to comprehend that
it would crack under any non-explosive
conditions.
I had one 'crack' experience, when a piece
got back fed into my table saw blade [my
stupidity], the high velocity tooth on the blade
caught the Lexan and whizzed a piece of it
[past my head] across the shop. Upon inspection,
the fragment showed signs of fracture.
I can't imagine that kind of real world high velocity
impact stress, even in hurricane sized waves
at sea.
I guess there's one good reason, Bruce: Lexan will scratch
eventually. It wouldn't be too easy to replace if it were epoxied in
place.
Re strength of Lexan: I suppose plastic sheet material is pretty
strong and that's why it's the central layer of Triplex glass.
News reports on the recent car-bomb explosion of the Australian
Embassy in Jakarta indicate that not one life was lost inside the
building because each window facing the main road was protected by a
plastic sheet over it. Unfortunately people out on the road didn't
have the same protection.
Howard
eventually. It wouldn't be too easy to replace if it were epoxied in
place.
Re strength of Lexan: I suppose plastic sheet material is pretty
strong and that's why it's the central layer of Triplex glass.
News reports on the recent car-bomb explosion of the Australian
Embassy in Jakarta indicate that not one life was lost inside the
building because each window facing the main road was protected by a
plastic sheet over it. Unfortunately people out on the road didn't
have the same protection.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>In hindsight, I can't think of a good reason for
> the mastic, epoxy would be stronger.
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
bed it in 3M5200 on the outside surface. The pane should be bigger
than the hull opening by, say, 1.0-2.0 inches on all sides. The hull
opening should be stiffened internally with framing.
James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
propagaters and are known for leaking.
Here is a thought experiment: Take a 4'X8' sheet of luaan and support
it's ends on sawhorses. This panel will barely support it's own
weight. Now build a rigid frame slightly smaller than the luaan and
support it on the sawhorses. Place the luaan on but do not secure to
the frame. If the frame is rigid you should be able to stand anywhere
on the luaan panel.
elastic modulus, is hard to join and harder to repair. And I suppose
that which applies to folks living in glass houses might somehow
correlate here.
Doug
wrote:
>I think the best way to attach the lexan to a boat cabin would be to
> My main concern would be the way the Lexan is held in its frame.
bed it in 3M5200 on the outside surface. The pane should be bigger
than the hull opening by, say, 1.0-2.0 inches on all sides. The hull
opening should be stiffened internally with framing.
James Wharram used this method successfully for many years - probably
still does. However, I would be inclined to secure the pane with a
trim ring rather than drilling holes in the Lexan. The holes are crack
propagaters and are known for leaking.
Here is a thought experiment: Take a 4'X8' sheet of luaan and support
it's ends on sawhorses. This panel will barely support it's own
weight. Now build a rigid frame slightly smaller than the luaan and
support it on the sawhorses. Place the luaan on but do not secure to
the frame. If the frame is rigid you should be able to stand anywhere
on the luaan panel.
> out of steel panels held in frames with bedding compound. And ifboat
> Lexan is such wonderful, economical stuff, why not build a whole
> out of it?Because it's heavy, expensive (in hull-sized quantities), has a low
elastic modulus, is hard to join and harder to repair. And I suppose
that which applies to folks living in glass houses might somehow
correlate here.
Doug
> My main concern would be the way the Lexan is held in its frame. It'sPlywood is much cheaper than Lexan, but I have no doubt that
> all very well to say it's as strong as steel (but I don't believe it,
> or even that it's as strong as 1/2" ply), but we don't build hulls
> out of steel panels held in frames with bedding compound. And if
> Lexan is such wonderful, economical stuff, why not build a whole boat
> out of it?
>
> Howard
you could build a boat with Lexan, using standard taped seam
techniques.
I attached my Lexan with SS screws at about 2" centers, bedded
in Silicon mastic. If I were to install Lexan windows again, I would
consider using epoxy and fiberglass tape for the edge connection.
Not unlike how I would choose to join the edges of two sheets
of plywood. In hindsight, I can't think of a good reason for
the mastic, epoxy would be stronger.
If Doug's cinder block test at 60 mph was done identically
on 1/4" plywood, and on 1/8" Lexan, I bet that the plywood
would fare worse.
Yes, the edge connections are critical,
both for Lexan *and* for plywood.
Well at least your post is a serious discussion of the subject, Doug.
Nice of you to make the Bolger reply available to us, Bruce, but it's
a diatribe rather than something that informs us.
My main concern would be the way the Lexan is held in its frame. It's
all very well to say it's as strong as steel (but I don't believe it,
or even that it's as strong as 1/2" ply), but we don't build hulls
out of steel panels held in frames with bedding compound. And if
Lexan is such wonderful, economical stuff, why not build a whole boat
out of it?
Howard
Nice of you to make the Bolger reply available to us, Bruce, but it's
a diatribe rather than something that informs us.
My main concern would be the way the Lexan is held in its frame. It's
all very well to say it's as strong as steel (but I don't believe it,
or even that it's as strong as 1/2" ply), but we don't build hulls
out of steel panels held in frames with bedding compound. And if
Lexan is such wonderful, economical stuff, why not build a whole boat
out of it?
Howard
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "doug6949" <prototype@c...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%
> 20Hasler/
> > At the time there was some controversy about the use of Lexan
> > windows, failing at sea.
>
> I did much of the structural design on Chicago's 3200 series subway
> cars. At that time, light rail standards dictated frontal impact
> survivability at the motorman's window from a cinder block (25
pounds,
> I think) at 60mph.
>
> The window material we used was 9/16" laminated safety glass. The
real
> issue, however, was not the pane but it's means of retention in the
> carshell. The pane was mounted in a rubber seal like that used in
auto
> windshields.
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
cars. At that time, light rail standards dictated frontal impact
survivability at the motorman's window from a cinder block (25 pounds,
I think) at 60mph.
The window material we used was 9/16" laminated safety glass. The real
issue, however, was not the pane but it's means of retention in the
carshell. The pane was mounted in a rubber seal like that used in auto
windshields. However, behind the window there was a steel structure
that prevented the pane from popping inward from it's seal.
The opening of the steel structure was notably smaller than the pane -
perhaps 1.5" of the pane perimeter was ovelapped.
We used safety glass because it doesn't haze like Lexan. But the above
principles would apply equally well (or more) to Lexan. The inward
forces of wave pressure must be distributed to the inner surface of
the pane rather than taken at the perimeter.
This method fails miserably under the impact of a Chevrolet engine
block or Kenmore refrigerator suspended from an overpass. You should
have little trouble if you keep your vessel out of Queens, Harlem or
the Bronx.
Doug
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%20Hasler/
> At the time there was some controversy about the use of LexanI did much of the structural design on Chicago's 3200 series subway
> windows, failing at sea.
cars. At that time, light rail standards dictated frontal impact
survivability at the motorman's window from a cinder block (25 pounds,
I think) at 60mph.
The window material we used was 9/16" laminated safety glass. The real
issue, however, was not the pane but it's means of retention in the
carshell. The pane was mounted in a rubber seal like that used in auto
windshields. However, behind the window there was a steel structure
that prevented the pane from popping inward from it's seal.
The opening of the steel structure was notably smaller than the pane -
perhaps 1.5" of the pane perimeter was ovelapped.
We used safety glass because it doesn't haze like Lexan. But the above
principles would apply equally well (or more) to Lexan. The inward
forces of wave pressure must be distributed to the inner surface of
the pane rather than taken at the perimeter.
This method fails miserably under the impact of a Chevrolet engine
block or Kenmore refrigerator suspended from an overpass. You should
have little trouble if you keep your vessel out of Queens, Harlem or
the Bronx.
Doug
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%20Hasler/The reason those images are so hard to read is that they were
stored in the 'jpg' image type, which is best for photos.
The 'gif' file type is much better for black and white drawings.
#635, Col. H.G. Hasler is one of PB&F's most iconoclastic recent designs.
I wish somebody would build one.
At the time there was some controversy about the use of Lexan
windows, failing at sea.
http://hallman.org/bolger/635/635w.gif
Contains Bolger's reply to that criticism.
I used 1/8" Lexan windows on my Micro Navigator,
and after a little impromptu testing I believe that the
1/8" lexan is several times stronger than the 1/4"
plywood used in the rest of the hull.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%20Hasler/
It is pretty hard to read it there, but I saved it to my desktop and
enlarged it enough to fit on an 81/2X11 page and it was readable.
Mr. Bolger has mentioned that he may be drawing it for plywood
building, since there has been not much response to the steel
version. He suggested it to me instead of a Long Micro Nav
modification.
Cheers, Nels
> Hello, Does anyone have the complete article of Bolger's "designfor
> a minimum world cruising single-hander".The entire article is in the files at Bolger3
> It interestes me a great deal and I would love to read the article
> in it's entirety. Thank you.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%20Hasler/
It is pretty hard to read it there, but I saved it to my desktop and
enlarged it enough to fit on an 81/2X11 page and it was readable.
Mr. Bolger has mentioned that he may be drawing it for plywood
building, since there has been not much response to the steel
version. He suggested it to me instead of a Long Micro Nav
modification.
Cheers, Nels
Hello, Does anyone have the complete article of Bolger's "design for
a minimum world cruising single-hander".
It interestes me a great deal and I would love to read the article
in it's entirety. Thank you.
a minimum world cruising single-hander".
It interestes me a great deal and I would love to read the article
in it's entirety. Thank you.