Re: Dutch Windmills -- now on-topic
I din't realize until just now how on-topic we've been, ever since
Nels' first post. In 100 Small Boat Rigs, straight after talking
about the Flettner rotor, PCB describes his rig 100: the rotor drive
i.e. an air rotor coupled to an underwater propellor.
He says they might work, but are completely impractical: "Sooner or
later, a hand or a head will bounce once on the deck and roll
overboard ..."
Howard
Nels' first post. In 100 Small Boat Rigs, straight after talking
about the Flettner rotor, PCB describes his rig 100: the rotor drive
i.e. an air rotor coupled to an underwater propellor.
He says they might work, but are completely impractical: "Sooner or
later, a hand or a head will bounce once on the deck and roll
overboard ..."
Howard
To me they look like two Flettner rotors -- see my earlier post
saying that Bolger had written about the device. They require power
to rotate them, but not very much. As I said before, a www seach will
soon find you all the info. you could possibly need to know about
them, including a page of fairly dense mathematics somewhere.
Howard
saying that Bolger had written about the device. They require power
to rotate them, but not very much. As I said before, a www seach will
soon find you all the info. you could possibly need to know about
them, including a page of fairly dense mathematics somewhere.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Related, certainly; but, if I understand the write-up, it might be
closer to
> an airboat than a sailboat. It uses a motor to turn the drum which
reacts
> with the wind to generate thrust.
I saw her in Nome in 88. As you see many wonderful and strange sites in
Nome, I just gave it my "well look at that " and went on about my
business. I think they were debating the NE passage and it wasn't a good
year to try.
HJ
juan negron wrote:
Nome, I just gave it my "well look at that " and went on about my
business. I think they were debating the NE passage and it wasn't a good
year to try.
HJ
juan negron wrote:
>This seems related, no?
>
>Cousteau Society's Alcyone "turbosails"
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6r38w
>
>
>----
>
>
Related, certainly; but, if I understand the write-up, it might be closer to
an airboat than a sailboat. It uses a motor to turn the drum which reacts
with the wind to generate thrust. I'm not at all sure about the relative
energy inputs (wind vs. fan motor). It may be closer to the STOL aircraft
that use blowing air for boundary layer control?
I think it might be difficult to send one's topmasts down in a storm.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
an airboat than a sailboat. It uses a motor to turn the drum which reacts
with the wind to generate thrust. I'm not at all sure about the relative
energy inputs (wind vs. fan motor). It may be closer to the STOL aircraft
that use blowing air for boundary layer control?
I think it might be difficult to send one's topmasts down in a storm.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "juan negron" <juan.negron@...>
> This seems related, no?
>
> Cousteau Society's Alcyone "turbosails"
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6r38w
All roads lead to Bolger.
On p. 247 of "100 Small Boat Rigs", PCB says:
"... the Flettner rotor. This was simply a tall cylinder.... that
rotated on a vertical axis. A motor running continuously is needed to
spin the cylinder." There's more, but anyone interested can try a
search engine. I got nearly 400 Google hits on "Flettner rotor".
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
On p. 247 of "100 Small Boat Rigs", PCB says:
"... the Flettner rotor. This was simply a tall cylinder.... that
rotated on a vertical axis. A motor running continuously is needed to
spin the cylinder." There's more, but anyone interested can try a
search engine. I got nearly 400 Google hits on "Flettner rotor".
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>It's a tall narrow device,auxiliary
> not much thicker than a mast, that rotates quite slowly. Through an
> aplication of the Bernoulli effect (as I recall), the device works
> like a normal sail. It's been proposed as a source of cheap
> driving power for engine-powered cargo vessels.
Nels, that site provides a lot of interesting info. on the idea you
brought up -- using a windmill on a boat to propel it, but Roger is
talking about something quite different. It's a tall narrow device,
not much thicker than a mast, that rotates quite slowly. Through an
aplication of the Bernoulli effect (as I recall), the device works
like a normal sail. It's been proposed as a source of cheap auxiliary
driving power for engine-powered cargo vessels.
brought up -- using a windmill on a boat to propel it, but Roger is
talking about something quite different. It's a tall narrow device,
not much thicker than a mast, that rotates quite slowly. Through an
aplication of the Bernoulli effect (as I recall), the device works
like a normal sail. It's been proposed as a source of cheap auxiliary
driving power for engine-powered cargo vessels.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > Some years ago, Popular Science(?), had a write-up for a sailboat
> using a rotor mounted with its axis vertical.
> Generally called Autogiro boats:
> Nels
Thanks for the info., Mark. Fortunately WB 88 is in one of my bound
volumes. I knew I'd read about it somewhere, and even thought it
might have been in an issue of WB but rejected the idea as not being
very much about wooden boats. So even they get a little off-topic at
times.
Howard
volumes. I knew I'd read about it somewhere, and even thought it
might have been in an issue of WB but rejected the idea as not being
very much about wooden boats. So even they get a little off-topic at
times.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark <marka@h...> wrote:
> For more wonder, WB Magazine ran a spread profiling Havilah Hawkins
and covering his
> early, development 7' model PVC catamaran; and a later, functioning
35' fantail chine
> boat with a 3000 pound lead keel and 600 pound, 28' pitch
controlled blades on a rotating
> and pivoting mast.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/auto/index.htm
Some even used an underwater prop AND an autogiro and some used
almost a verticl cylinder with slots type wind generator.
Nels
> Some years ago, Popular Science(?), had a write-up for a sailboatusing a
> rotor mounted with its axis vertical. I think the idea was to justgenerate
> lift rather than connect it to a propeller, but either shouldwork. The
> rotor was tall and thin and had a sort of ess shaped section (thinkthe
> mathematician's symbol for a path integral).Generally called Autogiro boats:
>
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/auto/index.htm
Some even used an underwater prop AND an autogiro and some used
almost a verticl cylinder with slots type wind generator.
Nels
Some years ago, Popular Science(?), had a write-up for a sailboat using a
rotor mounted with its axis vertical. I think the idea was to just generate
lift rather than connect it to a propeller, but either should work. The
rotor was tall and thin and had a sort of ess shaped section (think the
mathematician's symbol for a path integral).
It generated its lift like a golf ball does, encouraging flow over the top
and discouraging that on the bottom.
Kind of a windmill but without the power takeoff.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
rotor mounted with its axis vertical. I think the idea was to just generate
lift rather than connect it to a propeller, but either should work. The
rotor was tall and thin and had a sort of ess shaped section (think the
mathematician's symbol for a path integral).
It generated its lift like a golf ball does, encouraging flow over the top
and discouraging that on the bottom.
Kind of a windmill but without the power takeoff.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@...>
> I saw Captain Hawkins' windmill powered rig in Camden, on a hull like a
> lifeboat, mentioned at
>http://camden.villagesoup.com/opinions/GuestCols.cfm?StoryID=250
> It went well to windward, but a regular rig was better on all other
> points of sail.
>
> Also seehttp://foxxaero.homestead.com/indrad_007.html
>
> - Bill K.
Here's the lifeboat.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/KF011626.jpg?size=67&uid={a01a5c8f-526a-47ad-a331-916d3925082f}
It's 20'. The windmill 14'
For more wonder, WB Magazine ran a spread profiling Havilah Hawkins and covering his
early, development 7' model PVC catamaran; and a later, functioning 35' fantail chine
boat with a 3000 pound lead keel and 600 pound, 28' pitch controlled blades on a rotating
and pivoting mast. Best run was 4 knots, straight into a 30 knot wind. Performance in
general as you mentioned, even to windward in light air.
The 10' beam boat seemed plenty stiff, so plans were to swap the keel for just a 1000
pounds inside ballast.
WB #88 can be had here
http://pro.corbis.com/images/KF011626.jpg?size=67&uid={a01a5c8f-526a-47ad-a331-916d3925082f}
Mark
Bill Kreamer wrote:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/KF011626.jpg?size=67&uid={a01a5c8f-526a-47ad-a331-916d3925082f}
It's 20'. The windmill 14'
For more wonder, WB Magazine ran a spread profiling Havilah Hawkins and covering his
early, development 7' model PVC catamaran; and a later, functioning 35' fantail chine
boat with a 3000 pound lead keel and 600 pound, 28' pitch controlled blades on a rotating
and pivoting mast. Best run was 4 knots, straight into a 30 knot wind. Performance in
general as you mentioned, even to windward in light air.
The 10' beam boat seemed plenty stiff, so plans were to swap the keel for just a 1000
pounds inside ballast.
WB #88 can be had here
http://pro.corbis.com/images/KF011626.jpg?size=67&uid={a01a5c8f-526a-47ad-a331-916d3925082f}
Mark
Bill Kreamer wrote:
>
> I saw Captain Hawkins' windmill powered rig in Camden, on a hull like a
> lifeboat,
> mentioned at
>http://camden.villagesoup.com/opinions/GuestCols.cfm?StoryID=250
> It went well to windward, but a regular rig was better on all other
> points of sail.
>
> Also seehttp://foxxaero.homestead.com/indrad_007.html
>
> - Bill K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:51
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Dutch Windmills -- now getting off-topic
>
> Yes, it's an interesting site, Nels.
>
> I remember seeing an illustrated magazine article about a boat that
> had what looked like a huge propellor mounted on it -- much like the
> wind-driven generators we see now, although a lot smaller. The device
> was geared to an underwater propellor that moved the boat along quite
> nicely, even directly to windward. It would not do so well dead
> downwind, as you say.
>
> I was greatly surprised to see how much power was generated by these
> windmills. But on a boat, sails are certainly much simpler and there
> is less risk of one of the crew being decapitated.
>
> BTW I recently saw an item on TV about the Netherlands' last
> remaining functional steam-powered machines used to raise water out
> of Holland and up to sea-level. They were only used occasionally.
> They were converted to burn oil, but still had the old reciprocating
> steam engines driving what looked like Pelton wheels.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> > I have been intrigued by the sails on Dutch windmills and their
> > variants. How they ulitized slots, self reefing, air brake systems
> > and other controls to keep then turning at a more or less constant
> > speed and pointing into the wind. I wonder if they were ever tried
> on
> > a boat? It should be able to sail directly into the wind, and reach
> > as well, but then might not go downwind at all:-) Go here and
> scroll
> > well down the page: See the variant that connects directly to the
> > water with a sloped shaft!
> >
> >http://webserv.nhl.nl/~smits/windmill.htm
> >
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
I saw Captain Hawkins' windmill powered rig in Camden, on a hull like a
lifeboat,
mentioned at
http://camden.villagesoup.com/opinions/GuestCols.cfm?StoryID=250
It went well to windward, but a regular rig was better on all other
points of sail.
Also seehttp://foxxaero.homestead.com/indrad_007.html
- Bill K.
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:51
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Dutch Windmills -- now getting off-topic
Yes, it's an interesting site, Nels.
I remember seeing an illustrated magazine article about a boat that
had what looked like a huge propellor mounted on it -- much like the
wind-driven generators we see now, although a lot smaller. The device
was geared to an underwater propellor that moved the boat along quite
nicely, even directly to windward. It would not do so well dead
downwind, as you say.
I was greatly surprised to see how much power was generated by these
windmills. But on a boat, sails are certainly much simpler and there
is less risk of one of the crew being decapitated.
BTW I recently saw an item on TV about the Netherlands' last
remaining functional steam-powered machines used to raise water out
of Holland and up to sea-level. They were only used occasionally.
They were converted to burn oil, but still had the old reciprocating
steam engines driving what looked like Pelton wheels.
Howard
lifeboat,
mentioned at
http://camden.villagesoup.com/opinions/GuestCols.cfm?StoryID=250
It went well to windward, but a regular rig was better on all other
points of sail.
Also seehttp://foxxaero.homestead.com/indrad_007.html
- Bill K.
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Stephenson [mailto:stephensonhw@...]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 8:51
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Dutch Windmills -- now getting off-topic
Yes, it's an interesting site, Nels.
I remember seeing an illustrated magazine article about a boat that
had what looked like a huge propellor mounted on it -- much like the
wind-driven generators we see now, although a lot smaller. The device
was geared to an underwater propellor that moved the boat along quite
nicely, even directly to windward. It would not do so well dead
downwind, as you say.
I was greatly surprised to see how much power was generated by these
windmills. But on a boat, sails are certainly much simpler and there
is less risk of one of the crew being decapitated.
BTW I recently saw an item on TV about the Netherlands' last
remaining functional steam-powered machines used to raise water out
of Holland and up to sea-level. They were only used occasionally.
They were converted to burn oil, but still had the old reciprocating
steam engines driving what looked like Pelton wheels.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> I have been intrigued by the sails on Dutch windmills and their
> variants. How they ulitized slots, self reefing, air brake systems
> and other controls to keep then turning at a more or less constant
> speed and pointing into the wind. I wonder if they were ever tried
on
> a boat? It should be able to sail directly into the wind, and reach
> as well, but then might not go downwind at all:-) Go here and
scroll
> well down the page: See the variant that connects directly to the
> water with a sloped shaft!
>
>http://webserv.nhl.nl/~smits/windmill.htm
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, it's an interesting site, Nels.
I remember seeing an illustrated magazine article about a boat that
had what looked like a huge propellor mounted on it -- much like the
wind-driven generators we see now, although a lot smaller. The device
was geared to an underwater propellor that moved the boat along quite
nicely, even directly to windward. It would not do so well dead
downwind, as you say.
I was greatly surprised to see how much power was generated by these
windmills. But on a boat, sails are certainly much simpler and there
is less risk of one of the crew being decapitated.
BTW I recently saw an item on TV about the Netherlands' last
remaining functional steam-powered machines used to raise water out
of Holland and up to sea-level. They were only used occasionally.
They were converted to burn oil, but still had the old reciprocating
steam engines driving what looked like Pelton wheels.
Howard
I remember seeing an illustrated magazine article about a boat that
had what looked like a huge propellor mounted on it -- much like the
wind-driven generators we see now, although a lot smaller. The device
was geared to an underwater propellor that moved the boat along quite
nicely, even directly to windward. It would not do so well dead
downwind, as you say.
I was greatly surprised to see how much power was generated by these
windmills. But on a boat, sails are certainly much simpler and there
is less risk of one of the crew being decapitated.
BTW I recently saw an item on TV about the Netherlands' last
remaining functional steam-powered machines used to raise water out
of Holland and up to sea-level. They were only used occasionally.
They were converted to burn oil, but still had the old reciprocating
steam engines driving what looked like Pelton wheels.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> I have been intrigued by the sails on Dutch windmills and their
> variants. How they ulitized slots, self reefing, air brake systems
> and other controls to keep then turning at a more or less constant
> speed and pointing into the wind. I wonder if they were ever tried
on
> a boat? It should be able to sail directly into the wind, and reach
> as well, but then might not go downwind at all:-) Go here and
scroll
> well down the page: See the variant that connects directly to the
> water with a sloped shaft!
>
>http://webserv.nhl.nl/~smits/windmill.htm
>
I have been intrigued by the sails on Dutch windmills and their
variants. How they ulitized slots, self reefing, air brake systems
and other controls to keep then turning at a more or less constant
speed and pointing into the wind. I wonder if they were ever tried on
a boat? It should be able to sail directly into the wind, and reach
as well, but then might not go downwind at all:-) Go here and scroll
well down the page: See the variant that connects directly to the
water with a sloped shaft!
http://webserv.nhl.nl/~smits/windmill.htm
Nels
variants. How they ulitized slots, self reefing, air brake systems
and other controls to keep then turning at a more or less constant
speed and pointing into the wind. I wonder if they were ever tried on
a boat? It should be able to sail directly into the wind, and reach
as well, but then might not go downwind at all:-) Go here and scroll
well down the page: See the variant that connects directly to the
water with a sloped shaft!
http://webserv.nhl.nl/~smits/windmill.htm
Nels