[bolger] Re: Really Small Boats
In a message dated 00-03-28 22:07:33 EST, you write:
<< Where can we see a drawing or photo of this Big Tortoise?
Carter Kennedy >>
Carter,
It is generally believed that the Brick and the Big Tortoise are one in
the same. This is not correct. Confirmation of this can be found by looking
at the price list at Payson's Instant Boat website
http://www.instantboats.com/
See the wonderful Owl n' Mole website for anything you want to know
about their Brick (Tetard?). Carlson may also cover the Brick. The Tortoise
can be seen at the Cliff Island web site,
http://www.cliffisland.com/hans.html
I am not aware of any pictures of the Big Tortoise on the web , and
Google Search does not come up with any either. I have some wonderful
pictures of my Tortoise, but alas no scanner or any other way to put them on
the net. Payson's old "snail mail" price list had a line drawing of the Big
Tortoise. I wonder if any of us built one if it would be the prototype?
Regards,
Warren
<< Where can we see a drawing or photo of this Big Tortoise?
Carter Kennedy >>
Carter,
It is generally believed that the Brick and the Big Tortoise are one in
the same. This is not correct. Confirmation of this can be found by looking
at the price list at Payson's Instant Boat website
http://www.instantboats.com/
See the wonderful Owl n' Mole website for anything you want to know
about their Brick (Tetard?). Carlson may also cover the Brick. The Tortoise
can be seen at the Cliff Island web site,
http://www.cliffisland.com/hans.html
I am not aware of any pictures of the Big Tortoise on the web , and
Google Search does not come up with any either. I have some wonderful
pictures of my Tortoise, but alas no scanner or any other way to put them on
the net. Payson's old "snail mail" price list had a line drawing of the Big
Tortoise. I wonder if any of us built one if it would be the prototype?
Regards,
Warren
Where can we see a drawing or photo of this Big Tortoise?
Carter Kennedy
kf4cal-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3977
Carter Kennedy
kf4cal-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3977
>... Brick and Big Tortoise are two
> different designs. The beam of Big Tortoise is 3' 2" whereas Brickis 4'.
> The reduced beam may have several advantages: 1) lower weight suchthat I
> would be able to carry the Big Tortoise and not the Brick and 2)rowing
> position, with the narrower beam boat allowing for a traditionalrowing
> position. The rig, I expect is also different with the Tortoiseseries using
> a lateen setup.
>
> - What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passengerNothing, but it will be fat. A Peero (12-ft) is more fun.
> carrying capacity?
> - Some of these boats have the longwise thwart. Does that work forsailing as
> well as rowing?two part
>
> - Any ideas on best rig for a really small boat? Does Bolger have a
> mast design that could be applied to these boats?What is a two part mast design? Use an aluminum pole in two parts or
use a "Yankee Lateen" or use a batwing gunter sail. (See - yes - Cheap
Pages).
I am not sure but using Carlsons hull design program the displacement on a
brick with 450 lbs is 5.5" and for the same profile but with a 3'2" beam is
6.5" for 450 lbs of displacement. BY the way if you don't have Carlsons
hull design program it is in the vault under hull. It is defenently worth a
look.
Micheal Surface
brick with 450 lbs is 5.5" and for the same profile but with a 3'2" beam is
6.5" for 450 lbs of displacement. BY the way if you don't have Carlsons
hull design program it is in the vault under hull. It is defenently worth a
look.
Micheal Surface
>From:KF4call@...______________________________________________________
>Reply-To:bolger@egroups.com
>To:bolger@egroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Really Small Boats
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:53:35 EST
>
>
>In a message dated 00-03-27 10:46:51 EST, you write:
>
><< If by "Big Tortoise" you mean a Brick the beam is 4' and the capacity is
> really astonding (up to 875 lb). The brick is harder to row because of
>the
> high sides I plan to add a seat similar to the Tortoise . For when I use
>it
> for rowing. >>
>
>It took me a while to figure it out ... Brick and Big Tortoise are two
>different designs. The beam of Big Tortoise is 3' 2" whereas Brick is 4'.
>The reduced beam may have several advantages: 1) lower weight such that
>I
>would be able to carry the Big Tortoise and not the Brick and 2) rowing
>position, with the narrower beam boat allowing for a traditional rowing
>position. The rig, I expect is also different with the Tortoise series
>using
>a lateen setup.
>
>With the BEAM X LENGTH being about 3/4 of that of the Brick, would the
>carrying capacity be of the same proportion?
>
>Regards, Warren
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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In a message dated 00-03-27 10:46:51 EST, you write:
<< If by "Big Tortoise" you mean a Brick the beam is 4' and the capacity is
really astonding (up to 875 lb). The brick is harder to row because of the
high sides I plan to add a seat similar to the Tortoise . For when I use it
for rowing. >>
It took me a while to figure it out ... Brick and Big Tortoise are two
different designs. The beam of Big Tortoise is 3' 2" whereas Brick is 4'.
The reduced beam may have several advantages: 1) lower weight such that I
would be able to carry the Big Tortoise and not the Brick and 2) rowing
position, with the narrower beam boat allowing for a traditional rowing
position. The rig, I expect is also different with the Tortoise series using
a lateen setup.
With the BEAM X LENGTH being about 3/4 of that of the Brick, would the
carrying capacity be of the same proportion?
Regards, Warren
<< If by "Big Tortoise" you mean a Brick the beam is 4' and the capacity is
really astonding (up to 875 lb). The brick is harder to row because of the
high sides I plan to add a seat similar to the Tortoise . For when I use it
for rowing. >>
It took me a while to figure it out ... Brick and Big Tortoise are two
different designs. The beam of Big Tortoise is 3' 2" whereas Brick is 4'.
The reduced beam may have several advantages: 1) lower weight such that I
would be able to carry the Big Tortoise and not the Brick and 2) rowing
position, with the narrower beam boat allowing for a traditional rowing
position. The rig, I expect is also different with the Tortoise series using
a lateen setup.
With the BEAM X LENGTH being about 3/4 of that of the Brick, would the
carrying capacity be of the same proportion?
Regards, Warren
> Is that really true? I was trying to coach a friend on a windsurferYou probably know enough to tack decisively and not get caught in
> from one of these boardboats (possibly a sailfish) last year and found
> myself sailing circles around him without really thinking much about
> it.
irons, and, if you do get caught in irons, to let the sheet run a good
ways out so you fall well off the wind before starting forward again.
:-)
Is that really true? I was trying to coach a friend on a windsurfer
from one of these boardboats (possibly a sailfish) last year and found
myself sailing circles around him without really thinking much about
it, and I'm out of practice. (The board was defective or something and
would not go.) At the time it struck me as an extremely easy boat and
rig (simple lateen) to handle, tho heavier than I'd like when ashore.
"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3962
snip
from one of these boardboats (possibly a sailfish) last year and found
myself sailing circles around him without really thinking much about
it, and I'm out of practice. (The board was defective or something and
would not go.) At the time it struck me as an extremely easy boat and
rig (simple lateen) to handle, tho heavier than I'd like when ashore.
"peter vanderwaart" <pvander-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3962
snip
> P.P.S. It also just occured to me that many tiny boats are not the
> easiest to sail because they have little momentum and high aspect
> foils. It's easy to get them in irons, or to find yourself pinching
> along going slow and sideways rather than fast and forward. This is
> true of a Sailfish, and at least one sailor preached that they were
> ideal for teaching sailing for this reason. snip
> - What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passengerThe biggest drawback to a short boat is that it is inevitably also a
> carrying capacity?
slow boat. Your 8' boat is only going to reach 4 kts in unusual
conditions. Most of the time you are going to be lup-lup-lupping around
in the 2-3kt range. If your sailing area has current, your up-current,
over-the-ground speed can easily fall in the negligible/negative zone.
An important aspect of choosing a boat is matching it to your home
waters. If you have an interesting small lake, say up to a mile in
diameter, then a small boat is best. Most anywhere that your points of
interest are withing a mile, a small boat is fine. But, if the place
all your friends sail to for picnics is three miles away, a Brick is a
dubious proposition. The comfort factor limits your sailing radius as
much as speed.
In my Cynthia J. (15', no motor) I usually stayed within 2 miles of the
launching ramp. In my Capri (22', motor), I range up to 5/6 miles from
my slip. I sometimes think the Capri is in an unfortunate middle area:
too big, too heavy, too deep for the close-in, every rock and cove
business of a dink, but not really big and fast enough for many of the
local day trip destinations 10-15 miles from home.
Peter.
P.S. as for the drawbacks of bigger boats, I just paid $60 to replace
8' of wire, including the end fittings.
P.P.S. It also just occured to me that many tiny boats are not the
easiest to sail because they have little momentum and high aspect
foils. It's easy to get them in irons, or to find yourself pinching
along going slow and sideways rather than fast and forward. This is
true of a Sailfish, and at least one sailor preached that they were
ideal for teaching sailing for this reason. There are 'sailors' whose
experience is with big Caribbean charterboats who couldn't get a Brick
around a mill pond in a light breeae.
At 08:54 AM 3/27/2000 EST, you wrote:
reason such as storage on deck or pickup. Slow (unless you can get it to
plane), it will also be crowded and generally tippy.
quite stable and rows and sails better than you might think.
Gregg Carlson
>- What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passenger8' is a really small boat - I wouldn't go that short unless you had a
>carrying capacity?
reason such as storage on deck or pickup. Slow (unless you can get it to
plane), it will also be crowded and generally tippy.
>- I think Greg says the Brick is really very functional or even performsBrick is an exception, but while short, its not really very small. It is
>amazingly well, something like that. What does that mean?
quite stable and rows and sails better than you might think.
Gregg Carlson
>From:KF4call@...If by "Big Tortoise" you mean a Brick the beam is 4' and the capacity is
>Reply-To:bolger@egroups.com
>To:bolger@egroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Really Small Boats
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:47:46 EST
>
>I have a Tortoise. If I had it to do again, I would make a "Big
>Tortoise" --- the difference is 6'7" vs 8' . Both have a beam of >3'2", I
>think.
really astonding (up to 875 lb). The brick is harder to row because of the
high sides I plan to add a seat similar to the Tortoise . For when I use it
for rowing.
______________________________________________________
Having built a Nymph,
I can say that it tows really well, and rows extremely well for its
size. It is easy to transport due to its light weight and will take
2/3 people to the mother ship in relative safety. It is a little
tricky to get in and out of when stepping down off the dock or from a
larger boat. I will probably build another one after Micro is done as
the old Pointy skiff has just about had it.
David Jost
"working inside all day, but wishing he were out"
teakdec-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3953
I can say that it tows really well, and rows extremely well for its
size. It is easy to transport due to its light weight and will take
2/3 people to the mother ship in relative safety. It is a little
tricky to get in and out of when stepping down off the dock or from a
larger boat. I will probably build another one after Micro is done as
the old Pointy skiff has just about had it.
David Jost
"working inside all day, but wishing he were out"
teakdec-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=3953
> Bolgerbuilders,Tortoise. I
>
> Been thinking about really small boats like Brick and Nymph and
> have a few questions:performs
>
> - What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passenger
> carrying capacity?
>
> - I think Greg says the Brick is really very functional or even
> amazingly well, something like that. What does that mean?sailing as
>
> - Some of these boats have the longwise thwart. Does that work for
> well as rowing?two part
>
> - Any ideas on best rig for a really small boat? Does Bolger have a
> mast design that could be applied to these boats?
>
> Mike Masten
In a message dated 00-03-27 08:55:38 EST, you write:
<< Been thinking about really small boats like Brick and Nymph and Tortoise.
I
have a few questions:
Tortoise" --- the difference is 6' 7" vs 8' . Both have a beam of 3' 2", I
think. The reason I would go for the Big Tortoise, is that I imagine that
the capacity is 2 adults, mine only carries one adult plus a little one (<
about age 9 or 60lbs.) . This does not seem to have anything to do with the
sailing characteristics of the boat, but the comfort and "personal space" of
the occupants. On land, if I want to move the boat, I just pick it up and
carry it (No, I'm a little guy) I'm not sure this could be done with a
Brick. I might still be able to manage the "Big Tortoise", at least for
short distances.
I have been out a total of about 16-18 hrs in a variety of wind
conditions and the boat has not yet capsized. It feels stable. I don't use
the lengthwise thwart, I sit on the bottom. Seating is rather far forward
due to the length of the tiller. I have added a kick-up rudder of random
design.
Earlier I had commented that while most boats have to be balanced
against the angle of heel, the Tortoise also has to be balanced fore-and-aft.
At times when I have been sailing fast, If I am too far forward the bow
"digs in" to solid water. Recovery is easy by just shifting weight aft a
bit.
reflection of not being too well informed about such things. However, I find
no obvious problems.
Regards,
Warren (now building an Oldshoe in slow motion)
<< Been thinking about really small boats like Brick and Nymph and Tortoise.
I
have a few questions:
>>I have a Tortoise. If I had it to do again, I would make a "Big
Tortoise" --- the difference is 6' 7" vs 8' . Both have a beam of 3' 2", I
think. The reason I would go for the Big Tortoise, is that I imagine that
the capacity is 2 adults, mine only carries one adult plus a little one (<
about age 9 or 60lbs.) . This does not seem to have anything to do with the
sailing characteristics of the boat, but the comfort and "personal space" of
the occupants. On land, if I want to move the boat, I just pick it up and
carry it (No, I'm a little guy) I'm not sure this could be done with a
Brick. I might still be able to manage the "Big Tortoise", at least for
short distances.
I have been out a total of about 16-18 hrs in a variety of wind
conditions and the boat has not yet capsized. It feels stable. I don't use
the lengthwise thwart, I sit on the bottom. Seating is rather far forward
due to the length of the tiller. I have added a kick-up rudder of random
design.
Earlier I had commented that while most boats have to be balanced
against the angle of heel, the Tortoise also has to be balanced fore-and-aft.
At times when I have been sailing fast, If I am too far forward the bow
"digs in" to solid water. Recovery is easy by just shifting weight aft a
bit.
> - Any ideas on best rig for a really small boat? Does Bolger have a twopart
>mast design that could be applied to these boats?>I don't know what I would wish to accomplish by modifying the rig, probably a
reflection of not being too well informed about such things. However, I find
no obvious problems.
Regards,
Warren (now building an Oldshoe in slow motion)
Bolgerbuilders,
Been thinking about really small boats like Brick and Nymph and Tortoise. I
have a few questions:
- What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passenger
carrying capacity?
- I think Greg says the Brick is really very functional or even performs
amazingly well, something like that. What does that mean?
- Some of these boats have the longwise thwart. Does that work for sailing as
well as rowing?
- Any ideas on best rig for a really small boat? Does Bolger have a two part
mast design that could be applied to these boats?
Mike Masten
Been thinking about really small boats like Brick and Nymph and Tortoise. I
have a few questions:
- What are the drawbacks to, say, an 8' sailboat other than passenger
carrying capacity?
- I think Greg says the Brick is really very functional or even performs
amazingly well, something like that. What does that mean?
- Some of these boats have the longwise thwart. Does that work for sailing as
well as rowing?
- Any ideas on best rig for a really small boat? Does Bolger have a two part
mast design that could be applied to these boats?
Mike Masten