Re: [bolger] Re: bolger's dagger boards
I've had daggerboards on two Windmills and a Scooner. Both boats had boards of unballasted plywood, and raising/lowering them did not take any great effort.
Advantages: the dagger board case is shorter than a centerboard case. It is, therefore, easier to make watertight. The slot is shorter with a dagger board than with a centerboard and a db case is less likely to spit water. Being shorter, a db case takes up less room inside the boat than a cb case. Db cases are often higher (going all the way to the deck line) than cb cases, and this really helps in trying to bail a totally swamped boat (where a cb case will let water in as fast as you bail).
Disadvantages: When you run aground, either the boat stops really fast and/or you bust the board or possibly spring the db case. Daggerboards stick up above the deck line when raised by the same amount they stick down below the bottom when lowered. This is not a problem with a schooner, but an unexpected jibe with the db up on a sloop rigged boat can be real exciting. And wet. But the boat is easier to bail out afterwords:>)
When I was contemplating His and Hers Schooners, I thought it might be possible to build teeth into the edge of the daggerboard and use a screw jack to raise and lower it. So long as the project is in a fantasizing stage, it seems like a workable solution...
John T
Advantages: the dagger board case is shorter than a centerboard case. It is, therefore, easier to make watertight. The slot is shorter with a dagger board than with a centerboard and a db case is less likely to spit water. Being shorter, a db case takes up less room inside the boat than a cb case. Db cases are often higher (going all the way to the deck line) than cb cases, and this really helps in trying to bail a totally swamped boat (where a cb case will let water in as fast as you bail).
Disadvantages: When you run aground, either the boat stops really fast and/or you bust the board or possibly spring the db case. Daggerboards stick up above the deck line when raised by the same amount they stick down below the bottom when lowered. This is not a problem with a schooner, but an unexpected jibe with the db up on a sloop rigged boat can be real exciting. And wet. But the boat is easier to bail out afterwords:>)
When I was contemplating His and Hers Schooners, I thought it might be possible to build teeth into the edge of the daggerboard and use a screw jack to raise and lower it. So long as the project is in a fantasizing stage, it seems like a workable solution...
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: bolger's dagger boards
> Was [Centeniall II] before or after STORM PETREL?
Storm Petrel #337 is essentially a motor sailer, seaworthy and coastal.
Centenenial II #332 was designed to be the minimum seaworthy
boat, [in therory at least], capable to cross the Atlantic
in reasonable safety (you wouldn't catch me doing it). Oar auxillary.
http://hallman.org/bolger/Centenial2/
I bet they were both designed within a month or two of each other.
Bolger rules!!!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Was [Centeniall II] before or after STORM PETREL?Storm Petrel #337 is essentially a motor sailer, seaworthy and coastal.
Centenenial II #332 was designed to be the minimum seaworthy
boat, [in therory at least], capable to cross the Atlantic
in reasonable safety (you wouldn't catch me doing it). Oar auxillary.
http://hallman.org/bolger/Centenial2/
I bet they were both designed within a month or two of each other.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@p...>
wrote:
cabin or out? How deep is the board? I thought Matilda's had fixed
keels. Any photos?
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
> Can't speak to the problems with a PCB daggerboard but I have ownedand
> sailed a 20' Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8" steel platedaggerboard
> with a 300 lb. lead bulb on the bottom. A multipart tackle ismounted on the
> inside of the trunk and the top of the daggerboard. The cable leadsto a
> winch mounted on the outside of the rear cabin bulkhead. It hasworked very
> well with minimum fuss (except for the time I lost control of thewinch and
> it lowered itself all the way to the safety stop). I have groundedwith no
> problems, the boat just stopped REAL quick!Hard for me to visualize...Does the daggerboard raise inside the
>
cabin or out? How deep is the board? I thought Matilda's had fixed
keels. Any photos?
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm
"I don't think that there are many designs around with that
capability that can be built complete from eight 3/8" x 4' x 8'
sheets of plywood, and as little else as this one."
Also I would really love to see a real life "THREE-METER MULTIHULL"
Page 31 BWAOM. Beautiful little boat but for the twin daggerboards.
Cheers, Nels
>> I bet an "A-frame hoist" could also solve the handling problem ofWas that before or after STORM PETREL?
> the ballasted lee boards on Centenial II, making that boat a much
> more desirable choice for many. "...the most economical boat
> that could be called fit to keep the sea in bad weather."
> From 11 sheets of 3/8" plywood.
http://www.belljar.net/bolgersp.htm
"I don't think that there are many designs around with that
capability that can be built complete from eight 3/8" x 4' x 8'
sheets of plywood, and as little else as this one."
Also I would really love to see a real life "THREE-METER MULTIHULL"
Page 31 BWAOM. Beautiful little boat but for the twin daggerboards.
Cheers, Nels
Alough this may not be quite the situation with your I60, Susan, you
can take comfort from something PCB said about a design that he
hadn't yet been able to complete to the client's satisfaction: "She
won't depreciate at her time of life".
Howard
can take comfort from something PCB said about a design that he
hadn't yet been able to complete to the client's satisfaction: "She
won't depreciate at her time of life".
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> > what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?
>
> At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
> Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> A 9000lbs capacity truck winch should do the trick. Talked to truckYou're on. :-)
> supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the
> $499 model is simply better.
>
> He also said he'd give me a deal on two ;-)
A 9000lbs capacity truck winch should do the trick. Talked to truck
supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the $499
model is simply better.
He also said he'd give me a deal on two ;-)
-David
supply salesman and he talked me out of the $1200 model saying the $499
model is simply better.
He also said he'd give me a deal on two ;-)
-David
On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 11:50 AM, Susan Davis wrote:
>
>> what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?
>
> At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
> Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)
>
> The current draft of the plans calls for a 12 volt truck winch,
> attached to the swing arm of the keel.
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> what is the I60 using to pull it swingkeel up?At the moment, nothing -- the I60 is still sitting on Phil and
Suzanne's drawing boards. :-)
The current draft of the plans calls for a 12 volt truck winch,
attached to the swing arm of the keel.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> SusanI bet an "A-frame hoist" could also solve the handling problem of
> According to Phil, the A-frame for lifting the daggerboard was
> designed by Tony Groves, the original builder, not Phil.
the ballasted lee boards on Centenial II, making that boat a much
more desirable choice for many. "...the most economical boat
that could be called fit to keep the sea in bad weather."
From 11 sheets of 3/8" plywood.
Can't speak to the problems with a PCB daggerboard but I have owned and
sailed a 20' Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8" steel plate daggerboard
with a 300 lb. lead bulb on the bottom. A multipart tackle is mounted on the
inside of the trunk and the top of the daggerboard. The cable leads to a
winch mounted on the outside of the rear cabin bulkhead. It has worked very
well with minimum fuss (except for the time I lost control of the winch and
it lowered itself all the way to the safety stop). I have grounded with no
problems, the boat just stopped REAL quick!
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.com
sailed a 20' Matilda for 15 years. It has a 3/8" steel plate daggerboard
with a 300 lb. lead bulb on the bottom. A multipart tackle is mounted on the
inside of the trunk and the top of the daggerboard. The cable leads to a
winch mounted on the outside of the rear cabin bulkhead. It has worked very
well with minimum fuss (except for the time I lost control of the winch and
it lowered itself all the way to the safety stop). I have grounded with no
problems, the boat just stopped REAL quick!
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
The dagger board on the PB OSTAR 30 is steel with a 1000lbs of lead.
I can only wonder how one lifts that monster without a 10 to one z
drag or a windlass doing double duty on board.....what is the I60
using to pull it swingkeel up?
Jason
> >> 125 lb daggerboardyou
> > Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
> > prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits
> > don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.******************
> >
> > Reed
>
> Is there a picture or drawing of this frame anywhere?
The dagger board on the PB OSTAR 30 is steel with a 1000lbs of lead.
I can only wonder how one lifts that monster without a 10 to one z
drag or a windlass doing double duty on board.....what is the I60
using to pull it swingkeel up?
Jason
> > Perhaps someone can comment on the 125 pound daggerboard on the HisAccording to Phil, the A-frame for lifting the daggerboard was
> > and Her Schooner. Ouch!
>
> Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
> prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits you
> don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.
designed by Tony Groves, the original builder, not Phil. The fully
retracted daggerboard stands well in the way of the foresail, so the
lifting frame must be removable, or at least it doesn't appear in the
photos of the boat on the Duckworks site.
The original plans call for only filling the space where the lead goes
two thirds of the way full, to keep the daggerboard's weight down to
where it can be moved around without the use of a block and tackle.
Since it turns out that a block and tackle is needed after all, I plan
to fill the space all the way, which should increase the lead from 106
lbs to 159, which should make the boat stiffer.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>> 125 lb daggerboardIs there a picture or drawing of this frame anywhere?
> Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
> prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits you
> don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.
>
> Reed
Having built the case and CB for Chebacco and a replacement daggerboard for
the Sunfish, I believe the DB is much, much, easier to build. Maybe I
over-engineered it, but getting the axle/pivot to have the proper clearances
with the proper bearing material while being perpendicular to both the case
and the board was a real challenge. So was rigging the tackle, but that's a
function of the heavier weight.
It is also much easier to mark a DB so that you can see how much protrudes
below the bottom of the boat. (Felt tip marker on white paint for the DB.
I haven't figured out a scheme for the CB unless I mark the lanyard.) (Full
down for beating if the water is there, 10" for reaching, 3" for running,
full up for pivoting about the rudder, and YES, don't jibe with the board
up.)
From an earlier comment about grounding with a CB, it didn't sound like
either could be built "less stout." Whatever is needed to stop dead from
full speed or lift the entire boat with the CB.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
the Sunfish, I believe the DB is much, much, easier to build. Maybe I
over-engineered it, but getting the axle/pivot to have the proper clearances
with the proper bearing material while being perpendicular to both the case
and the board was a real challenge. So was rigging the tackle, but that's a
function of the heavier weight.
It is also much easier to mark a DB so that you can see how much protrudes
below the bottom of the boat. (Felt tip marker on white paint for the DB.
I haven't figured out a scheme for the CB unless I mark the lanyard.) (Full
down for beating if the water is there, 10" for reaching, 3" for running,
full up for pivoting about the rudder, and YES, don't jibe with the board
up.)
From an earlier comment about grounding with a CB, it didn't sound like
either could be built "less stout." Whatever is needed to stop dead from
full speed or lift the entire boat with the CB.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
<snip>
> Never had any trouble with it leaking or jamming. The worst of it was
> that it wasn't possible to tack or gybe with the board halfway up,
> because the boom vang would foul the top of the board. (This is not a
> fault of all daggerboards). It's probably more difficult to rig any
> kind of lifting tackle than with a pivoting c/b, so a large weighted
> daggerboard could be a real pain.
>
> Compared with a pivoting c/b in a long trunk, daggerboards are: a)
> more "efficient" i.e. more lift and less drag under most
> circumstances; and b) probably easier to build. The daggerboard and
> case need to be strong so they can stand a high-speed grounding. Mine
> were -- I grounded many times.
The first boat I built and owned, many years ago, was 20' trimaran
daysailer with a daggerboard at least as deep in the water as a
Jessie Cooper board but shorter overall because the tri had much less
freeboard than JC.
Never had any trouble with it leaking or jamming. The worst of it was
that it wasn't possible to tack or gybe with the board halfway up,
because the boom vang would foul the top of the board. (This is not a
fault of all daggerboards). It's probably more difficult to rig any
kind of lifting tackle than with a pivoting c/b, so a large weighted
daggerboard could be a real pain.
Compared with a pivoting c/b in a long trunk, daggerboards are: a)
more "efficient" i.e. more lift and less drag under most
circumstances; and b) probably easier to build. The daggerboard and
case need to be strong so they can stand a high-speed grounding. Mine
were -- I grounded many times.
If I were building a JC, I'd be happy to go for the twin
daggerboards -- but who knows whether I'd change my mind after it was
built?
Anyone who wants to know more about my trimaran experience can go to:
http://www.geocities.com/howardstephenson/TRIMARANS.html
The boat depicted is not mine.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
daysailer with a daggerboard at least as deep in the water as a
Jessie Cooper board but shorter overall because the tri had much less
freeboard than JC.
Never had any trouble with it leaking or jamming. The worst of it was
that it wasn't possible to tack or gybe with the board halfway up,
because the boom vang would foul the top of the board. (This is not a
fault of all daggerboards). It's probably more difficult to rig any
kind of lifting tackle than with a pivoting c/b, so a large weighted
daggerboard could be a real pain.
Compared with a pivoting c/b in a long trunk, daggerboards are: a)
more "efficient" i.e. more lift and less drag under most
circumstances; and b) probably easier to build. The daggerboard and
case need to be strong so they can stand a high-speed grounding. Mine
were -- I grounded many times.
If I were building a JC, I'd be happy to go for the twin
daggerboards -- but who knows whether I'd change my mind after it was
built?
Anyone who wants to know more about my trimaran experience can go to:
http://www.geocities.com/howardstephenson/TRIMARANS.html
The boat depicted is not mine.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> Anyone have some experience with bolger's daggerboards?the
> Jessie Cooper's, Single Handed Schooner's, etc.
> Do these things suck(the boards)? Jam regularly, leak like a sieve
> and draw ton's o'water. Any benifits other than space savings of
> case? Does the higher aspect dagger boardwork better than a big
> centerboard in some situations......not real common on anything
> bigger than a sunfish.
> Thanks,
> Jason
>Phil B. designed a special frame to lift the board, after the
> Perhaps someone can comment on the 125 pound daggerboard on the His
> and Her Schooner. Ouch!
>
> Cheers, Nels
prototype had been built. Since it's between the two cockpits you
don't notice it being in the way. It worked very well.
Reed
Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...> wrote:
got out of hand about foils etc. I had one boat with a daggerboard
and that was one too many, but some folks actually like them a lot.
Perhaps someone can comment on the 125 pound daggerboard on the His
and Her Schooner. Ouch!
Cheers, Nels
> PS no quoting page 369 of bwaom.There was a big long discussion of daggerboards the last time things
> jason
got out of hand about foils etc. I had one boat with a daggerboard
and that was one too many, but some folks actually like them a lot.
Perhaps someone can comment on the 125 pound daggerboard on the His
and Her Schooner. Ouch!
Cheers, Nels
PS no quoting page 369 of bwaom.
jason
jason
Anyone have some experience with bolger's daggerboards?
Jessie Cooper's, Single Handed Schooner's, etc.
Do these things suck(the boards)? Jam regularly, leak like a sieve
and draw ton's o'water. Any benifits other than space savings of the
case? Does the higher aspect dagger boardwork better than a big
centerboard in some situations......not real common on anything
bigger than a sunfish.
Thanks,
Jason
Jessie Cooper's, Single Handed Schooner's, etc.
Do these things suck(the boards)? Jam regularly, leak like a sieve
and draw ton's o'water. Any benifits other than space savings of the
case? Does the higher aspect dagger boardwork better than a big
centerboard in some situations......not real common on anything
bigger than a sunfish.
Thanks,
Jason