Re: [bolger] Re: More sail power for a cat yawl?
Its funny but there are similar threads on 3 different lists that I am
on right now. The multihull one just mentioned that they roller furl the
screecher which is a close winded (large) asymmetric spinnaker set on a
boomkin near as I can tell. Multihulls very seldom go straight down
wind, and the relative wind comes forward fast because of boat speed.
HJ
Howard Stephenson wrote:
on right now. The multihull one just mentioned that they roller furl the
screecher which is a close winded (large) asymmetric spinnaker set on a
boomkin near as I can tell. Multihulls very seldom go straight down
wind, and the relative wind comes forward fast because of boat speed.
HJ
Howard Stephenson wrote:
>Spinnakers can be (usually are?) rigged so that they can be taken
>down while the pole stays up there, to be taken down later if
>necessary. This could be awkward with a sloop, but no problem when
>there is no forestay and no jib. With the lines suitably arranged, it
>could be done from the cockpit. Or, depending on the design, you
>might be able to do everything by standing in the forehatch.
>
>I've never seen one but, seeing you are going to have a wire luff,
>you could have a furling spinnaker that works just like a furling
>foresail.
>
>
>Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Actually, Roger, the jib doesn't require a trip. The entire
>>operation can be from the cockpit with minimal use of lines and
>>blocks. The AS, with pole, is another matter, but one would
>>
>>
>probably
>
>
>>not be tempted to have a spinnaker out in rough seas.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Excuse me for going all the way back to the beginning of the
discussion. What is the windspeed that marks upper end of when you
want more SA and the lower end of when the SA seem adequate? At some
windspeed or other, every boat becomes dull. Trying to carry a
parachute in a calm is a whole 'nother kind of frustration.
Peter
discussion. What is the windspeed that marks upper end of when you
want more SA and the lower end of when the SA seem adequate? At some
windspeed or other, every boat becomes dull. Trying to carry a
parachute in a calm is a whole 'nother kind of frustration.
Peter
Pretty close to what I got for the foot of the main the old-fashioned
way.
Bolger has a standard response to anyone who asks him how much sail
area a particular boat should have. He asks "How strong will the wind
be?"
Howard
.--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
way.
Bolger has a standard response to anyone who asks him how much sail
area a particular boat should have. He asks "How strong will the wind
be?"
Howard
.--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> For fun, I scanned in the Auckland Cat sail plan, then imported itto Corel
> Draw. In CD I drew 2' dia. circles based on the scale below theprofile and
> duplicated and stacked these to get the following:4"
>
> Jib: foot = 8' 6", hoist = 10' 3", and luff = 18' 6"
> Main: foot = 12' 6", hoist = 33' 3", luff diag. 33' 9", roach = 4'
For fun, I scanned in the Auckland Cat sail plan, then imported it to Corel
Draw. In CD I drew 2' dia. circles based on the scale below the profile and
duplicated and stacked these to get the following:
Jib: foot = 8' 6", hoist = 10' 3", and luff = 18' 6"
Main: foot = 12' 6", hoist = 33' 3", luff diag. 33' 9", roach = 4' 4"
At that point it started to feel like work, so the rest is left as an
exercise for the student.
Note that the scanning and importing process changed the scale from what the
book had, so my value won't help you.
I have several real live CAD programs, but I'm too rusty with them to access
their ability to calculate areas and perimeters.
I'd guess that since the customer already had the rig left over from a
previous boat, PCB didn't worry too much about the dimensions. Maybe
they're "standard" for the class? (nah)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
Draw. In CD I drew 2' dia. circles based on the scale below the profile and
duplicated and stacked these to get the following:
Jib: foot = 8' 6", hoist = 10' 3", and luff = 18' 6"
Main: foot = 12' 6", hoist = 33' 3", luff diag. 33' 9", roach = 4' 4"
At that point it started to feel like work, so the rest is left as an
exercise for the student.
Note that the scanning and importing process changed the scale from what the
book had, so my value won't help you.
I have several real live CAD programs, but I'm too rusty with them to access
their ability to calculate areas and perimeters.
I'd guess that since the customer already had the rig left over from a
previous boat, PCB didn't worry too much about the dimensions. Maybe
they're "standard" for the class? (nah)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Spoering" <spoering@...>
> Hi Howard -
> My Problem with calculating the sail area shown in BWOM for the AC is
> that there are no dimensions shown for barely anything and nothing above
> the deck. I have roughly measured the drawings in the book and come
> up
> with 1/32" = 3 1/2 '. Has anyone tried to figure this ?
> Aloha - Jack - Ft Lauderdale, Fl
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...>
>> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: 10/12/2004 3:04:47 PM
>> Subject: [bolger] Re: More sail power for a cat yawl?
>>
>>
>>
>> "World's best practice" for carrying extras downwind used to be
>> demonstrated by the Sydney 18-footers. Have a look at:
>>
>>http://www.18footers.com.au/australia/Historical.html
>>
>> The ringtail (the sail that extends the mainsail's area aft of its
>> leech) has definite potential, particularly if its propensity to
>> cause weather helm is counteracted by a single-luff spinnaker ...
>>
>> Another 18-footer go-fast technique if the wind eased was to throw
>> half the crew overboard.
>>
>> Howard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Spinnakers can be (usually are?) rigged so that they can be taken
down while the pole stays up there, to be taken down later if
necessary. This could be awkward with a sloop, but no problem when
there is no forestay and no jib. With the lines suitably arranged, it
could be done from the cockpit. Or, depending on the design, you
might be able to do everything by standing in the forehatch.
I've never seen one but, seeing you are going to have a wire luff,
you could have a furling spinnaker that works just like a furling
foresail.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
down while the pole stays up there, to be taken down later if
necessary. This could be awkward with a sloop, but no problem when
there is no forestay and no jib. With the lines suitably arranged, it
could be done from the cockpit. Or, depending on the design, you
might be able to do everything by standing in the forehatch.
I've never seen one but, seeing you are going to have a wire luff,
you could have a furling spinnaker that works just like a furling
foresail.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
>probably
> Actually, Roger, the jib doesn't require a trip. The entire
> operation can be from the cockpit with minimal use of lines and
> blocks. The AS, with pole, is another matter, but one would
> not be tempted to have a spinnaker out in rough seas.
Hi Jack,
To illustrate how to do it with one measurement, the length of the
foot of the mainsail: get a piece of paper and mark that length on
the edge of the paper. Hold the edge of the paper against the scale
shown under the sailplan, marked in 2' increments. By interpolation,
I can see it comes out to about 12.4'
Another way (useful when you don't have a scale drawn on the plan) is
to use a metric ruler. The hull measures 69.5mm long and the foot of
the sail 27.5mm. So, full scale, it must be 27.5/69.5 x 31.5 =
12.46'. (We know the hull is 31.5' long).
If you don't have a metric scale, you can use an inch rule, as long
as it shows 1/10" divisions. Or if you really have to, you can
convert 1/16s" or whatever to decimal fractions before using simple
proportion, as shown above.
Howard
To illustrate how to do it with one measurement, the length of the
foot of the mainsail: get a piece of paper and mark that length on
the edge of the paper. Hold the edge of the paper against the scale
shown under the sailplan, marked in 2' increments. By interpolation,
I can see it comes out to about 12.4'
Another way (useful when you don't have a scale drawn on the plan) is
to use a metric ruler. The hull measures 69.5mm long and the foot of
the sail 27.5mm. So, full scale, it must be 27.5/69.5 x 31.5 =
12.46'. (We know the hull is 31.5' long).
If you don't have a metric scale, you can use an inch rule, as long
as it shows 1/10" divisions. Or if you really have to, you can
convert 1/16s" or whatever to decimal fractions before using simple
proportion, as shown above.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Spoering" <spoering@e...> wrote:
> Hi Howard -
>
> My Problem with calculating the sail area shown in BWOM for the AC
is
> that there are no dimensions shown for barely anything and nothing
above
> the deck.
Hi Howard -
My Problem with calculating the sail area shown in BWOM for the AC is
that there are no dimensions shown for barely anything and nothing above
the deck. I have roughly measured the drawings in the book and come up
with 1/32" = 3 1/2 '. Has anyone tried to figure this ?
Aloha - Jack - Ft Lauderdale, Fl
My Problem with calculating the sail area shown in BWOM for the AC is
that there are no dimensions shown for barely anything and nothing above
the deck. I have roughly measured the drawings in the book and come up
with 1/32" = 3 1/2 '. Has anyone tried to figure this ?
Aloha - Jack - Ft Lauderdale, Fl
> [Original Message](978) 282-1349
> From: Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 10/12/2004 3:04:47 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: More sail power for a cat yawl?
>
>
>
> "World's best practice" for carrying extras downwind used to be
> demonstrated by the Sydney 18-footers. Have a look at:
>
>http://www.18footers.com.au/australia/Historical.html
>
> The ringtail (the sail that extends the mainsail's area aft of its
> leech) has definite potential, particularly if its propensity to
> cause weather helm is counteracted by a single-luff spinnaker ...
>
> Another 18-footer go-fast technique if the wind eased was to throw
> half the crew overboard.
>
> Howard
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actually, Roger, the jib doesn't require a trip. The entire
operation can be from the cockpit with minimal use of lines and
blocks. The AS, with pole, is another matter, but one would probably
not be tempted to have a spinnaker out in rough seas.
operation can be from the cockpit with minimal use of lines and
blocks. The AS, with pole, is another matter, but one would probably
not be tempted to have a spinnaker out in rough seas.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> The concern I have with all the sails you're suggesting is that
they call
> for added crew and for mandatory trips to the foredeck when the
weather
> makes that unpleasant.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
>
> > A large part of the pleasure of building your own boat is the
freedom to
> > experiment. The only concern I might have about a
bowsprit/cutter rig
> > would be what happens to the center of effort when you start
adding sail
> > area forward.
On Wednesday 13 October 2004 01:47 pm, John B. Trussell wrote:
designing as well as building and sailing?
boblq
> A large part of the pleasure of building your own boat is the freedom toAnd designing adds another dimension. Are any on this list is
> experiment.
designing as well as building and sailing?
boblq
The concern I have with all the sails you're suggesting is that they call
for added crew and for mandatory trips to the foredeck when the weather
makes that unpleasant.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
for added crew and for mandatory trips to the foredeck when the weather
makes that unpleasant.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
> A large part of the pleasure of building your own boat is the freedom to
> experiment. The only concern I might have about a bowsprit/cutter rig
> would be what happens to the center of effort when you start adding sail
> area forward.
Yes, Fraser uses a jib, set on a bowsprit. So does Randy Wheating,
but I don't want a bowsprit, so I'll probably go the asymetrical
spinnaker route. I don't think a jib is much use to windward
without a forestay, and downwind the spinnaker will be bigger.
Doeswn't sound like anyone else has tried one so far, so I'll be the
guinea pig.
My experience with the jib as per plans is that it messes up the
main if used going to windward, and won't stand without a pole going
downwind. However, it worked well with the mizzen and no main when
we tried it in strong winds. I keep it on board to play with and in
case of even stronger winds where the main is too much.
Cheers,
Jamie
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
but I don't want a bowsprit, so I'll probably go the asymetrical
spinnaker route. I don't think a jib is much use to windward
without a forestay, and downwind the spinnaker will be bigger.
Doeswn't sound like anyone else has tried one so far, so I'll be the
guinea pig.
My experience with the jib as per plans is that it messes up the
main if used going to windward, and won't stand without a pole going
downwind. However, it worked well with the mizzen and no main when
we tried it in strong winds. I keep it on board to play with and in
case of even stronger winds where the main is too much.
Cheers,
Jamie
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
>suggest
> Jamie, the lightwind scenario you sketch and the approach you
> reminds of Fraser in Nova Scotia. I thought, when he was activeon
> Bill Samson's CN, that he was a great experimenter with bowspritsand
> different jibs, and busted masts too. I recall then that PCB'sonly
> comment (I guess through Bill) was that the asymmetrical spinnaker
> would be the right thing with a whisker pole.
>
> I'm not a 'happy camper' though with the idea that the jib as PCB
> shows it is a no-go thing. Or, is it simply that it is a no-go
> in light winds, and in medium and brisk winds it contributes toMoreover,
> forward motion? Surely he didn't show it without reason.
> since this jib is already on your boat, what say the experts herein
> Bolgerlistland on making the Chebacco something of a cutter (?)with
> a small bowsprit (PCB didn't, I recall, mind something of about2')
> and a 2nd larger jib -- both pulling, shaping together?winds,
>
> Cheers,
> Dick, today's varnishing slave of "Stealing Horses."
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light
> > downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's prettyone
> > useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
> >
> > In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker,
> but
> > I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
> > experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of
> inbows
> > action?
> >
> > Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the
> > and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. mighthave
> > some reaching ability too.
> >
> > Jamie Orr
A large part of the pleasure of building your own boat is the freedom to experiment. The only concern I might have about a bowsprit/cutter rig would be what happens to the center of effort when you start adding sail area forward. Before I spent any money on the conversion, I'd spend some time with a scale drawing and figure center of effort.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: seagulloutb
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:42 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: More sail power for a cat yawl?
Jamie, the lightwind scenario you sketch and the approach you suggest
reminds of Fraser in Nova Scotia. I thought, when he was active on
Bill Samson's CN, that he was a great experimenter with bowsprits and
different jibs, and busted masts too. I recall then that PCB's
comment (I guess through Bill) was that the asymmetrical spinnaker
would be the right thing with a whisker pole.
I'm not a 'happy camper' though with the idea that the jib as PCB
shows it is a no-go thing. Or, is it simply that it is a no-go only
in light winds, and in medium and brisk winds it contributes to
forward motion? Surely he didn't show it without reason. Moreover,
since this jib is already on your boat, what say the experts here in
Bolgerlistland on making the Chebacco something of a cutter (?) with
a small bowsprit (PCB didn't, I recall, mind something of about 2')
and a 2nd larger jib -- both pulling, shaping together?
Cheers,
Dick, today's varnishing slave of "Stealing Horses."
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
>
> I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
> downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
> useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
>
> In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker,
but
> I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
> experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one
in
> action?
>
> Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
> and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might have
> some reaching ability too.
>
> Jamie Orr
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jamie, the lightwind scenario you sketch and the approach you suggest
reminds of Fraser in Nova Scotia. I thought, when he was active on
Bill Samson's CN, that he was a great experimenter with bowsprits and
different jibs, and busted masts too. I recall then that PCB's
comment (I guess through Bill) was that the asymmetrical spinnaker
would be the right thing with a whisker pole.
I'm not a 'happy camper' though with the idea that the jib as PCB
shows it is a no-go thing. Or, is it simply that it is a no-go only
in light winds, and in medium and brisk winds it contributes to
forward motion? Surely he didn't show it without reason. Moreover,
since this jib is already on your boat, what say the experts here in
Bolgerlistland on making the Chebacco something of a cutter (?) with
a small bowsprit (PCB didn't, I recall, mind something of about 2')
and a 2nd larger jib -- both pulling, shaping together?
Cheers,
Dick, today's varnishing slave of "Stealing Horses."
reminds of Fraser in Nova Scotia. I thought, when he was active on
Bill Samson's CN, that he was a great experimenter with bowsprits and
different jibs, and busted masts too. I recall then that PCB's
comment (I guess through Bill) was that the asymmetrical spinnaker
would be the right thing with a whisker pole.
I'm not a 'happy camper' though with the idea that the jib as PCB
shows it is a no-go thing. Or, is it simply that it is a no-go only
in light winds, and in medium and brisk winds it contributes to
forward motion? Surely he didn't show it without reason. Moreover,
since this jib is already on your boat, what say the experts here in
Bolgerlistland on making the Chebacco something of a cutter (?) with
a small bowsprit (PCB didn't, I recall, mind something of about 2')
and a 2nd larger jib -- both pulling, shaping together?
Cheers,
Dick, today's varnishing slave of "Stealing Horses."
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
>
> I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
> downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
> useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
>
> In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker,
but
> I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
> experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one
in
> action?
>
> Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
> and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might have
> some reaching ability too.
>
> Jamie Orr
>I've hankered with the idea of a tops'l, however the Chebacco is basicallyConor O'Brien has a simplified scheme that might work. You'd have to extend
>a gunter rig which makes a topsail effectively undoable. Maybe a tiny one
>would work on the Chebacco, but it would add more weight than power aloft
>in my opinion.
the topsl foot with a jackyard on a Chebacco I suppose.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
Asym. spinnakers shown all the places Howard says [also on Red Zinger, AS29,
AS39 ] and on the new Micro plans in MAIB. Looks like you could be fitting
one to Oink and reliving the glory days, Don! :)
Jamie, Don; please try one and report back... PCB really seems to like them,
the '103 Rigs' write up sounds like restrained enthusiasm. I note he never
seems to show any additional staying. If our local water wasn't well on the
way to turning solid I'd be tempted to try one myself. No need for a wire
luff - easy to splice vectran or dyneema wouldn't break the bank in these
sizes. I guess when you're not flying the sail the pole stows upright just
forward of the mast? They look like they would make rather awkward
boathooks.
cheers
Derek
AS39 ] and on the new Micro plans in MAIB. Looks like you could be fitting
one to Oink and reliving the glory days, Don! :)
Jamie, Don; please try one and report back... PCB really seems to like them,
the '103 Rigs' write up sounds like restrained enthusiasm. I note he never
seems to show any additional staying. If our local water wasn't well on the
way to turning solid I'd be tempted to try one myself. No need for a wire
luff - easy to splice vectran or dyneema wouldn't break the bank in these
sizes. I guess when you're not flying the sail the pole stows upright just
forward of the mast? They look like they would make rather awkward
boathooks.
cheers
Derek
Howard is right onto it with his description Jamie.
When I raced dinghies here in NZ, asymmetrical spinnakers were
universal, then we were polluted by overseas trends towards prissy
parachutes.
They are the best extra sail for reaching, and ok for running
square, provided the pole is long. They are much less likely to get
you into trouble, out of control, than a high shouldered parachute
type. They really do need a vang to work properly and a wire in the
luff (not rope, unless there is a miracle rope which can do it these
days). The sail is powerful, and I am not sure about an unstayed
mast. If you try to sail with the jib in place, and the halyard
higher on the mast, you will have to disconnect the pole from the
sails tack when you jibe, and reconnect again on the other side.
Best to drop the jib which is pretty useless anyway.
All in all, a demanding beast, but very rewarding on a tight reach.
Ahhhh.....it takes me back, hanging on a wire, skipping wavetop to
wavetop.........
DonB
When I raced dinghies here in NZ, asymmetrical spinnakers were
universal, then we were polluted by overseas trends towards prissy
parachutes.
They are the best extra sail for reaching, and ok for running
square, provided the pole is long. They are much less likely to get
you into trouble, out of control, than a high shouldered parachute
type. They really do need a vang to work properly and a wire in the
luff (not rope, unless there is a miracle rope which can do it these
days). The sail is powerful, and I am not sure about an unstayed
mast. If you try to sail with the jib in place, and the halyard
higher on the mast, you will have to disconnect the pole from the
sails tack when you jibe, and reconnect again on the other side.
Best to drop the jib which is pretty useless anyway.
All in all, a demanding beast, but very rewarding on a tight reach.
Ahhhh.....it takes me back, hanging on a wire, skipping wavetop to
wavetop.........
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
>
> I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
> downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
> useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
>
> In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker,
but
> I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
> experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one
in
> action?
>
> Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
> and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might
have
> some reaching ability too.
>
> Jamie Orr
"World's best practice" for carrying extras downwind used to be
demonstrated by the Sydney 18-footers. Have a look at:
http://www.18footers.com.au/australia/Historical.html
The ringtail (the sail that extends the mainsail's area aft of its
leech) has definite potential, particularly if its propensity to
cause weather helm is counteracted by a single-luff spinnaker ...
Another 18-footer go-fast technique if the wind eased was to throw
half the crew overboard.
Howard
demonstrated by the Sydney 18-footers. Have a look at:
http://www.18footers.com.au/australia/Historical.html
The ringtail (the sail that extends the mainsail's area aft of its
leech) has definite potential, particularly if its propensity to
cause weather helm is counteracted by a single-luff spinnaker ...
Another 18-footer go-fast technique if the wind eased was to throw
half the crew overboard.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
>in
> I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
> experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one
> action?There's a photo of one in action on page 373 of BWAOM.
>
As to adding sail area for running in light winds, I used to hoist a spare
genoa, hanked to one of the shrouds, using a topping lift for a halliard,
and held out by the boathook.
I have also rigged a small jib sail under the boom, again using a boathook
to the clew, calling it my water sail.
Alvan.
genoa, hanked to one of the shrouds, using a topping lift for a halliard,
and held out by the boathook.
I have also rigged a small jib sail under the boom, again using a boathook
to the clew, calling it my water sail.
Alvan.
eheins@...wrote:
still at the planning stage for my own boat). As an alternative, what
about a mizzen staysail as used on the modified Chebacco Kitty Hawk by
Vincenzo Ciminale (pictures on www.chebacco.com)? For downwind
performance a square-rigged topsail might work, though it could also be
a bugger to deal with. Either of these ideas would probably benefit from
some experimentation with polytarp sails in very sheltered waters to see
if there's any legs in them whatsoever.
Dan
> I've hankered with the idea of a tops'l, however the Chebacco is basicallyThat's a very good point, and one that I hadn't considered (since I'm
> a gunter rig which makes a topsail effectively undoable. Maybe a tiny one
> would work on the Chebacco, but it would add more weight than power aloft
> in my opinion.
still at the planning stage for my own boat). As an alternative, what
about a mizzen staysail as used on the modified Chebacco Kitty Hawk by
Vincenzo Ciminale (pictures on www.chebacco.com)? For downwind
performance a square-rigged topsail might work, though it could also be
a bugger to deal with. Either of these ideas would probably benefit from
some experimentation with polytarp sails in very sheltered waters to see
if there's any legs in them whatsoever.
Dan
I've hankered with the idea of a tops'l, however the Chebacco is basically
a gunter rig which makes a topsail effectively undoable. Maybe a tiny one
would work on the Chebacco, but it would add more weight than power aloft
in my opinion.
a gunter rig which makes a topsail effectively undoable. Maybe a tiny one
would work on the Chebacco, but it would add more weight than power aloft
in my opinion.
John B. Trussell wrote:
unreefing quickly and easily, this is still a good way of dealing with
the problem IMHO, though I admit it seems a little wasteful to make a
sail so large that most of the time it has at least one reef in it.
Having some sort of auxiliary sail for light air is really just a tidier
way of doing things, in that it can be removed when it's not needed.
they look (at least when they're done properly). I also like the idea of
being able to ghost along when others resort to oars or engine.
Whilst we're on the subject of topsails, does anyone have any
recommendations for sources of information on their construction,
rigging and use? I've never actually seen one close up, though I've seen
plenty of photographs, they're something of a fixture on gaff-rigged
Norfolk Broads racing yachts, who habitually hoisted them in conditions
I'd consider downright dangerous, at least judging from old pictures.
Just a thought, but have any Light Schooner (or other Bolger Schooner)
builders considered making/using topsails? I'm not sure it would be a
sensible thing to do, but it would look very impressive, at least until
it capsized.
Dan
> There was a time when sails were very large with lots of reef points, but we don't do that anymore.Providing a system has been worked out and practiced for reefing and
unreefing quickly and easily, this is still a good way of dealing with
the problem IMHO, though I admit it seems a little wasteful to make a
sail so large that most of the time it has at least one reef in it.
Having some sort of auxiliary sail for light air is really just a tidier
way of doing things, in that it can be removed when it's not needed.
> If I were playing with more sail area, I would add a top sail. It really does have the advantage of adding sail area up high where there might be more breeze, but I think it looks good too. It is a complicated sail to set and trim; you're unlikely to find anyone who can give you advice based on experience, and getting through the learning curve could be a challenge. But think of the satisfaction you could get when the skippers of more conventional boats marvelled at your skill!I admit that a large part of my own hankerings for a topsail is how good
they look (at least when they're done properly). I also like the idea of
being able to ghost along when others resort to oars or engine.
Whilst we're on the subject of topsails, does anyone have any
recommendations for sources of information on their construction,
rigging and use? I've never actually seen one close up, though I've seen
plenty of photographs, they're something of a fixture on gaff-rigged
Norfolk Broads racing yachts, who habitually hoisted them in conditions
I'd consider downright dangerous, at least judging from old pictures.
Just a thought, but have any Light Schooner (or other Bolger Schooner)
builders considered making/using topsails? I'm not sure it would be a
sensible thing to do, but it would look very impressive, at least until
it capsized.
Dan
Boats which are adequately powered for moderate air often feel dull in light air, particularly when sailing off the wind. Sailing in light air is also made difficult by the fact that the sails and boat don't send the signals to the helms person. Or if they do, they are so subtle that they are easy to miss.
Adding sail area is an obvious fix, provided you can reduce sail as the wind picks up. An asymetrical spinnaker is basically a large head sail flown off a bowsprit (which is usually retractable). Alternatives are a bigger main sail (which could be accomplished by a taller sail and longer mast) or a top sail.
An asymetrical spinnaker is used for off the wind sailing, and probably would not improve performance on a beat. Since a spinnaker is usually pretty big, you might have lee helm problems, but you should be able to tune these out with the mizzen. You should also be aware that any fore sail will put some strain on the mast, ant the more powerful the sail, the greater the strain--probably not a major problem in light air.
There was a time when sails were very large with lots of reef points, but we don't do that anymore.
If I were playing with more sail area, I would add a top sail. It really does have the advantage of adding sail area up high where there might be more breeze, but I think it looks good too. It is a complicated sail to set and trim; you're unlikely to find anyone who can give you advice based on experience, and getting through the learning curve could be a challenge. But think of the satisfaction you could get when the skippers of more conventional boats marvelled at your skill!
John T
Adding sail area is an obvious fix, provided you can reduce sail as the wind picks up. An asymetrical spinnaker is basically a large head sail flown off a bowsprit (which is usually retractable). Alternatives are a bigger main sail (which could be accomplished by a taller sail and longer mast) or a top sail.
An asymetrical spinnaker is used for off the wind sailing, and probably would not improve performance on a beat. Since a spinnaker is usually pretty big, you might have lee helm problems, but you should be able to tune these out with the mizzen. You should also be aware that any fore sail will put some strain on the mast, ant the more powerful the sail, the greater the strain--probably not a major problem in light air.
There was a time when sails were very large with lots of reef points, but we don't do that anymore.
If I were playing with more sail area, I would add a top sail. It really does have the advantage of adding sail area up high where there might be more breeze, but I think it looks good too. It is a complicated sail to set and trim; you're unlikely to find anyone who can give you advice based on experience, and getting through the learning curve could be a challenge. But think of the satisfaction you could get when the skippers of more conventional boats marvelled at your skill!
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: jas_orr
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 11:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] More sail power for a cat yawl?
I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker, but
I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one in
action?
Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might have
some reaching ability too.
Jamie Orr
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bowsI think, bottom-line, there is not much difference between these two
> and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S.
> might have some reaching ability too.
ideas.
Peter
jas_orr wrote:
for the Catfish beachcruiser, as I don't think the catboat rig is quite
what I'm looking for, though the hull fits my requirements quite nicely.
My idea for the jib was to have a fairly small, flat, self-tacking jib
on a jib-boom that is attached to the stem by a loop of rope about 1/3
of the way in from it's forward end, hanging out over the bow (in your
case the attachment point would be on the jonesport cleat). I've sailed
on boats rigged in a similar way, some pictures of them can be found at
http://www.huntersyard.co.uk. From my experience of sailing those boats
I would observe that a jib like this doesn't provide huge amounts of
driving force on it's own (though it's very handy for manouvering in and
out of moorings), but in combination with the gaff mainsail it can
provide a useful improvement in speed as well as allowing the boat to
point a few degrees higher. Someone who knows more about aerodynamics
than me would probably be able to explain why, I don't want to expose
the limitations of my knowledge so I'll just stick to reporting what
I've observed.
Downwind or on a reach have you looked at a gaff topsail? I'm currently
waiting for some reading materials to arrive (The Gaff Rig Handbook by
John Leather, and Tom Cunliffe's Hand Reef and Steer), so I can read
more about these beasts.
Incidentally, in case anyone's interested my ideas for the catfish
beachcruiser are to change to a smaller gaff mainsail with a slightly
smaller version of Chebacco's mizzen mast and spritsail, a very small
(10 square feet) self-tacking jib as described above, and possibly a
gaff topsail for very light winds. Having done some preliminary
calculations I reckon I could make the changes without altering the hull
or the location of the mast, so if it's really doesn't work then I can
use the original rig, but I don't think that'll be necessary.
Dan
>Hi Jason, I've been thinking about similar ideas for an alternate rig
> I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
> downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
> useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
for the Catfish beachcruiser, as I don't think the catboat rig is quite
what I'm looking for, though the hull fits my requirements quite nicely.
My idea for the jib was to have a fairly small, flat, self-tacking jib
on a jib-boom that is attached to the stem by a loop of rope about 1/3
of the way in from it's forward end, hanging out over the bow (in your
case the attachment point would be on the jonesport cleat). I've sailed
on boats rigged in a similar way, some pictures of them can be found at
http://www.huntersyard.co.uk. From my experience of sailing those boats
I would observe that a jib like this doesn't provide huge amounts of
driving force on it's own (though it's very handy for manouvering in and
out of moorings), but in combination with the gaff mainsail it can
provide a useful improvement in speed as well as allowing the boat to
point a few degrees higher. Someone who knows more about aerodynamics
than me would probably be able to explain why, I don't want to expose
the limitations of my knowledge so I'll just stick to reporting what
I've observed.
Downwind or on a reach have you looked at a gaff topsail? I'm currently
waiting for some reading materials to arrive (The Gaff Rig Handbook by
John Leather, and Tom Cunliffe's Hand Reef and Steer), so I can read
more about these beasts.
Incidentally, in case anyone's interested my ideas for the catfish
beachcruiser are to change to a smaller gaff mainsail with a slightly
smaller version of Chebacco's mizzen mast and spritsail, a very small
(10 square feet) self-tacking jib as described above, and possibly a
gaff topsail for very light winds. Having done some preliminary
calculations I reckon I could make the changes without altering the hull
or the location of the mast, so if it's really doesn't work then I can
use the original rig, but I don't think that'll be necessary.
Dan
PS: PCB shows a single-luff spinnaker in:
Different boats: Otter II, Wolf Trap (inc. photo), Romp, Manatee,
Sweet Chariot
30-odd boats: Palo de Agua
BWAOM: Volunteer, Tarantula
.. and elsewhere, no doubt.
Howard
Different boats: Otter II, Wolf Trap (inc. photo), Romp, Manatee,
Sweet Chariot
30-odd boats: Palo de Agua
BWAOM: Volunteer, Tarantula
.. and elsewhere, no doubt.
Howard
There is a pretty good description of the benefits of a single-luffed
or asymmetric spinnaker at Rig 26 of 100 Small Boat Rigs.
A spinnaker is usu. controlled by a pole, that holds it out on the
opposite side of the boat to the boom. The pole and the sp. are
controlled by a sp. halliard, a pole uphaul, a pole downhaul (like a
boom vang), a guy attached to the sail and/or the pole at its outer
end and a sheet, attached to the other bottom corner of the
spinnaker. (Uphaul and downhaul might not always be necessary).
With an AS, the luff is always the luff. With the more common balloon
sp. the old luff becomes the new leach when it's gybed, and the guy
and sheet reverse tasks; the outer end of the pole has to be detached
from the spinnaker and re-attached to the other side.
This is probably as clear as mud, but it's the best I can do. An AS
is cut fairly flat and is more closewinded than a balloon sp. It
would be larger than a genoa, but usu. made of lighter cloth. Larger
sizes would have a wire luff.
The big advantage of the cat rig/spinnaker combination is that there
is no forestay to get in the way when gybing. I guess the halliard
could have a stopper in it so that when the sp. is fully up, the
halliard could be belayed well aft of the mast, to act as a kind of
running backstay.
You will find a para. or two about an AS for a Chebacco at:
http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/chebacc9.htm
Howard
or asymmetric spinnaker at Rig 26 of 100 Small Boat Rigs.
A spinnaker is usu. controlled by a pole, that holds it out on the
opposite side of the boat to the boom. The pole and the sp. are
controlled by a sp. halliard, a pole uphaul, a pole downhaul (like a
boom vang), a guy attached to the sail and/or the pole at its outer
end and a sheet, attached to the other bottom corner of the
spinnaker. (Uphaul and downhaul might not always be necessary).
With an AS, the luff is always the luff. With the more common balloon
sp. the old luff becomes the new leach when it's gybed, and the guy
and sheet reverse tasks; the outer end of the pole has to be detached
from the spinnaker and re-attached to the other side.
This is probably as clear as mud, but it's the best I can do. An AS
is cut fairly flat and is more closewinded than a balloon sp. It
would be larger than a genoa, but usu. made of lighter cloth. Larger
sizes would have a wire luff.
The big advantage of the cat rig/spinnaker combination is that there
is no forestay to get in the way when gybing. I guess the halliard
could have a stopper in it so that when the sp. is fully up, the
halliard could be belayed well aft of the mast, to act as a kind of
running backstay.
You will find a para. or two about an AS for a Chebacco at:
http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/chebacc9.htm
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jas_orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
>
> I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
> downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
> useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
I sail a Chebacco, and I'm looking for more oomph in light winds,
downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker, but
I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one in
action?
Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might have
some reaching ability too.
Jamie Orr
downwind or on a reach. I have the "optional" jib, it's pretty
useless as drawn -- but I don't want a permanent bowsprit.
In PCB's 100 Small Rigs, he speaks of an asymmetrical spinnaker, but
I don't fully understand how this is rigged. Does anyone have
experience with one of these, or have any pictures/diagrams of one in
action?
Alternatively, I might try a large, light jib attached at the bows
and boomed out with a light spar, but I'm hoping an A.S. might have
some reaching ability too.
Jamie Orr