Re: Bolger's Perfect Skiff Entry?
I don't know what's going on there, Nels. It looks a bit like a jib
on a club, but that wouldn't be a "running bowsprit". However, it
doesn't seem to be any kind of spinnaker. So I can't say whether a
jib and/or a spinnaker could be used.
A jib on an unstayed mast suchas this one won't be very effective to
windward except in light wind -- the luff sags and the sail becomes
too full just when it should be fairly flat.
Re p.76: although he doesn't say so, perhaps the context is meant to
imply that he's talking about jibs rather than sails that are
temporarily set forward of the mast i.e. spinnakers. Bolger has drawn
plenty of cat-rigged boats with spinnakers. I think also his rules
would be a bit different for a transom-bowed boat like, say, Micro,
as compared with a boat with a pointy bow, such as a catboat.
Howard
on a club, but that wouldn't be a "running bowsprit". However, it
doesn't seem to be any kind of spinnaker. So I can't say whether a
jib and/or a spinnaker could be used.
A jib on an unstayed mast suchas this one won't be very effective to
windward except in light wind -- the luff sags and the sail becomes
too full just when it should be fairly flat.
Re p.76: although he doesn't say so, perhaps the context is meant to
imply that he's talking about jibs rather than sails that are
temporarily set forward of the mast i.e. spinnakers. Bolger has drawn
plenty of cat-rigged boats with spinnakers. I think also his rules
would be a bit different for a transom-bowed boat like, say, Micro,
as compared with a boat with a pointy bow, such as a catboat.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> The illustration showing the BWII jib set-up is in Bolger4 files in
> the Birdwatcher folder. It is not very clear. The pole (running
> bowsprit.) is lower down, almost on the deck and perhaps attached
to bow cleat, but there are no lines shown except the jib sheet. I
>would expect that it may be cut somewhat flatter and use heavier >
cloth than the sp on p.270. But I am wondering if one could have one
of each using the same pole or running bowsprit set-up? The jib for
reaching in light air and the other for downwind, wing on wing?
>
> I read a humerous quote from PCB on page 76 of 100 SMALL BOAT RIGS:
>
> "It's simply not a good idea to step a mast right in the eyes of a
> boat and then try to set more sail ahead of it. It can be done, but
> it shouldn't be."
>
> Yet on a lot of his latest designs he has done exactly that!
>
> Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
the Birdwatcher folder. It is not very clear. The pole (running
bowsprit.) is lower down, almost on the deck and perhaps attached to
bow cleat, but there are no lines shown except the jib sheet. I would
expect that it may be cut somewhat flatter and use heavier cloth than
the sp on p.270. But I am wondering if one could have one of each
using the same pole or running bowsprit set-up? The jib for reaching
in light air and the other for downwind, wing on wing?
I read a humerous quote from PCB on page 76 of 100 SMALL BOAT RIGS:
"It's simply not a good idea to step a mast right in the eyes of a
boat and then try to set more sail ahead of it. It can be done, but
it shouldn't be."
Yet on a lot of his latest designs he has done exactly that!
Cheers, Nels
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>of
> I'm not sure which particular jib you refer to, Nels, but the tack
> a jib usually (always?) has its tack at a fixed point on the deck,or
> a bowsprit, whereas the sp. at p.270 is mounted on a pole thatallows
> the luff of the sail to be moved so that it can be, usually, on theThe illustration showing the BWII jib set-up is in Bolger4 files in
> opposite side of the hull to the main boom.
>
the Birdwatcher folder. It is not very clear. The pole (running
bowsprit.) is lower down, almost on the deck and perhaps attached to
bow cleat, but there are no lines shown except the jib sheet. I would
expect that it may be cut somewhat flatter and use heavier cloth than
the sp on p.270. But I am wondering if one could have one of each
using the same pole or running bowsprit set-up? The jib for reaching
in light air and the other for downwind, wing on wing?
I read a humerous quote from PCB on page 76 of 100 SMALL BOAT RIGS:
"It's simply not a good idea to step a mast right in the eyes of a
boat and then try to set more sail ahead of it. It can be done, but
it shouldn't be."
Yet on a lot of his latest designs he has done exactly that!
Cheers, Nels
I'm not sure which particular jib you refer to, Nels, but the tack of
a jib usually (always?) has its tack at a fixed point on the deck, or
a bowsprit, whereas the sp. at p.270 is mounted on a pole that allows
the luff of the sail to be moved so that it can be, usually, on the
opposite side of the hull to the main boom.
I'm not really up in this field, but I understand there are several
small racing dinghy classes where the sp. pole is not free to move to
port and stbd. --in fact it can only be telescoped in and out. This
would blur distinction between a jib and a sp.
Howard
a jib usually (always?) has its tack at a fixed point on the deck, or
a bowsprit, whereas the sp. at p.270 is mounted on a pole that allows
the luff of the sail to be moved so that it can be, usually, on the
opposite side of the hull to the main boom.
I'm not really up in this field, but I understand there are several
small racing dinghy classes where the sp. pole is not free to move to
port and stbd. --in fact it can only be telescoped in and out. This
would blur distinction between a jib and a sp.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> > BTW - I have a question re; BWII write-up in WB 179.
> >
> > What is the difference between the "71-sq-ft jib (set on a
running
> > bowsprit)" and a "Single luff spinnaker" shown on page 270 of
BWAOM?
> >
> > Cheers, Nels
>
> Yah OK the answer is 19-sq-ft.
>
> But I mean other than that!
>
> Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
But I mean other than that!
Nels
> BTW - I have a question re; BWII write-up in WB 179.Yah OK the answer is 19-sq-ft.
>
> What is the difference between the "71-sq-ft jib (set on a running
> bowsprit)" and a "Single luff spinnaker" shown on page 270 of BWAOM?
>
> Cheers, Nels
But I mean other than that!
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
meaning to suggest that one look at other alternatives before making
any investment.
There are some similarities, in that the rigs are almost identical,
as is the off-centerboard and the somewhat complicated rudder system.
Comparing the effort to build, I am almost convinced that the
BIRDWATHER (original) would be easier than the CSS. Then you also
have the options for taking it into more complicated refinements in
BWII. Such as the bow mod - larger rig and C/B etc.
Both boats require a trailer. However I did not realize the CSS was
only 140 lb compared to 600+ for BW so that would be major
difference.
The PDF file suggests that the CSS could be used as a camp cruiser
and I seem to recall that this was also suggested in article PCB
wrote for WB mag at one time. (He had the lady carrying a 357 magnum
pistol for security:)
There was also an article about a family in a BW on the upper
Missouri River. These two articles convinced me that the BW plans
were what I would choose. At that time, my late wife and I did a lot
fo canoeing and were getting to the point that being outside 24/7 on
a canoe trip was losing some of it's romance.
So a boat like BW sure looked like a nice alternative, with the
exception of rowing, i.e. seeing where you been rather than where
you'er going:-) At the time I was corresponding with Bernie Wolfard,
and suggested it was an atractive design for aging canoeists and
kayakers. He then began to advertise the plans with that philosophy
in mind. Turned out it was a lot bigger than I thought!
So I decided on a Zephyr and planned to add a BW top. Then eventually
bought the SURF plans. Then along came MICRO. Then along came
Mary...etc:-)
BTW - I have a question re; BWII write-up in WB 179.
What is the difference between the "71-sq-ft jib (set on a running
bowsprit)" and a "Single luff spinnaker" shown on page 270 of BWAOM?
Cheers, Nels
>The
>> I don't think Nels you can compare this design with
> Birdwatcher....they are boats for completely different purposes.
> skiff is a 15'6" 140lb multi purpose open dinghy, and much lessI wasn't intending to suggest their was a direct comparison. I was
> investment than a 23'6" 600lb cabin cruiser Birdwatcher.
> DonB
meaning to suggest that one look at other alternatives before making
any investment.
There are some similarities, in that the rigs are almost identical,
as is the off-centerboard and the somewhat complicated rudder system.
Comparing the effort to build, I am almost convinced that the
BIRDWATHER (original) would be easier than the CSS. Then you also
have the options for taking it into more complicated refinements in
BWII. Such as the bow mod - larger rig and C/B etc.
Both boats require a trailer. However I did not realize the CSS was
only 140 lb compared to 600+ for BW so that would be major
difference.
The PDF file suggests that the CSS could be used as a camp cruiser
and I seem to recall that this was also suggested in article PCB
wrote for WB mag at one time. (He had the lady carrying a 357 magnum
pistol for security:)
There was also an article about a family in a BW on the upper
Missouri River. These two articles convinced me that the BW plans
were what I would choose. At that time, my late wife and I did a lot
fo canoeing and were getting to the point that being outside 24/7 on
a canoe trip was losing some of it's romance.
So a boat like BW sure looked like a nice alternative, with the
exception of rowing, i.e. seeing where you been rather than where
you'er going:-) At the time I was corresponding with Bernie Wolfard,
and suggested it was an atractive design for aging canoeists and
kayakers. He then began to advertise the plans with that philosophy
in mind. Turned out it was a lot bigger than I thought!
So I decided on a Zephyr and planned to add a BW top. Then eventually
bought the SURF plans. Then along came MICRO. Then along came
Mary...etc:-)
BTW - I have a question re; BWII write-up in WB 179.
What is the difference between the "71-sq-ft jib (set on a running
bowsprit)" and a "Single luff spinnaker" shown on page 270 of BWAOM?
Cheers, Nels
Well, the css pictures in the file are the correct rig while the
others are not. The jtuma hull shots are excellent though.
I have Bernies Common Sense Design Book in front of me now. He
actually called it the Common Sense Skiff, and it 'was Bolger's
entry in Wooden Boats 1991 Perfect Skiff Competition'.
I don't think Nels you can compare this design with
Birdwatcher....they are boats for completely different purposes. The
skiff is a 15'6" 140lb multi purpose open dinghy, and much less
investment than a 23'6" 600lb cabin cruiser Birdwatcher.
DonB
others are not. The jtuma hull shots are excellent though.
I have Bernies Common Sense Design Book in front of me now. He
actually called it the Common Sense Skiff, and it 'was Bolger's
entry in Wooden Boats 1991 Perfect Skiff Competition'.
I don't think Nels you can compare this design with
Birdwatcher....they are boats for completely different purposes. The
skiff is a 15'6" 140lb multi purpose open dinghy, and much less
investment than a 23'6" 600lb cabin cruiser Birdwatcher.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> >
> > It is in the files section of this group under Perfect Skiff.
> > The picture files prefixed jtuma are really good
> > DonB
> >
> Except they aren't showing the proper rig. Looks like
the "standard"
> 59 sq. ft. Payson rig which is a lot smaller. The CSD Skiff calls
for
> a 107.
>
> Also the CSD Skiff seems to have a different snotter set-up than
> usual. Perhaps to help prevent the jib from hanging up on the
sprit
> boom? The rudder is a rather complicated affair as well.
>
> I would think the BIRDWATCHER would be the better boat, but this
one
> is certainly effective. I think the plans are available from PCB&F.
>
> Nels
By the way, I still have the plans.
PT
PT
I think it was called the Common Sense Skiff. I bought the plans to it
from Common Sense Designs (aka Bernie Wolford) about ten years ago,
but never built the boat. It is something like 15' 4" X 4' 0" X 6"
(with the off-centerboard up), flat-bottomed and solent-rigged. It has
provision for mounting an outboard, is rowable, of course and has a
rather unique Bolgeresque kick-up rudder.
Paul Thober
from Common Sense Designs (aka Bernie Wolford) about ten years ago,
but never built the boat. It is something like 15' 4" X 4' 0" X 6"
(with the off-centerboard up), flat-bottomed and solent-rigged. It has
provision for mounting an outboard, is rowable, of course and has a
rather unique Bolgeresque kick-up rudder.
Paul Thober
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...> wrote:
>
> I was once told that Mr. Bolger had an entry in the "Perfect Skiff"
> contest that Wooden Boat ran several years ago and that the design
> was available through Common Sense Designs. I have searched the
> internet, but I have not been able to find any reference to that
> boat. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, is the design
> written up anywhere?
>
> Rob M
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
59 sq. ft. Payson rig which is a lot smaller. The CSD Skiff calls for
a 107.
Also the CSD Skiff seems to have a different snotter set-up than
usual. Perhaps to help prevent the jib from hanging up on the sprit
boom? The rudder is a rather complicated affair as well.
I would think the BIRDWATCHER would be the better boat, but this one
is certainly effective. I think the plans are available from PCB&F.
Nels
>Except they aren't showing the proper rig. Looks like the "standard"
> It is in the files section of this group under Perfect Skiff.
> The picture files prefixed jtuma are really good
> DonB
>
59 sq. ft. Payson rig which is a lot smaller. The CSD Skiff calls for
a 107.
Also the CSD Skiff seems to have a different snotter set-up than
usual. Perhaps to help prevent the jib from hanging up on the sprit
boom? The rudder is a rather complicated affair as well.
I would think the BIRDWATCHER would be the better boat, but this one
is certainly effective. I think the plans are available from PCB&F.
Nels
It is in the files section of this group under Perfect Skiff.
The picture files prefixed jtuma are really good
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
The picture files prefixed jtuma are really good
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
>Skiff"
> I was once told that Mr. Bolger had an entry in the "Perfect
> contest that Wooden Boat ran several years ago and that the design
> was available through Common Sense Designs. I have searched the
> internet, but I have not been able to find any reference to that
> boat. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, is the design
> written up anywhere?
>
> Rob M
Further: mine is the 1st (and last?) ed., "first printing" (nothing
like being optimistic), dated August 1992.
The first half deals with "Instant" Boats: Micro, Long M, AS-29,
B'watcher, M Jane, J Cooper, Breakdown Schooner, AS-19, Cynthia J,
Corsair, Oldshoe, Jinni, CS Skiff, Pirogue, Pirate Racer, Bateau, Big
Dory, Shoebox, Brick, Double Br, Fishcat, Tennessee, Step Sharpie,
Bee, Micro Trawler, Houseboat, L Micro, Whalewatcher, Superbrick,
Idaho (this one was designed for Bernie).
The second half deals with 23 "Complex boats". such as Kotick,
Moccasin, Samuel Clyde and Mikim.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
like being optimistic), dated August 1992.
The first half deals with "Instant" Boats: Micro, Long M, AS-29,
B'watcher, M Jane, J Cooper, Breakdown Schooner, AS-19, Cynthia J,
Corsair, Oldshoe, Jinni, CS Skiff, Pirogue, Pirate Racer, Bateau, Big
Dory, Shoebox, Brick, Double Br, Fishcat, Tennessee, Step Sharpie,
Bee, Micro Trawler, Houseboat, L Micro, Whalewatcher, Superbrick,
Idaho (this one was designed for Bernie).
The second half deals with 23 "Complex boats". such as Kotick,
Moccasin, Samuel Clyde and Mikim.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>details
> I have one, but don't have a scanner. Don't mind sharing any
> in words at any time, though -- within reason ;-)
>
> Howard
I have one, but don't have a scanner. Don't mind sharing any details
in words at any time, though -- within reason ;-)
Howard
in words at any time, though -- within reason ;-)
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:58:36 -0000, Howard Stephenson
> >... in an old Bernie Wolfard CSD catalog.
>
> Does anyone have a copy of this old Common
> Sense Designs catalogue to share? I have lost
> my copy.
>
> Bruce Hallman
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:58:36 -0000, Howard Stephenson
Sense Designs catalogue to share? I have lost
my copy.
Bruce Hallman
>... in an old Bernie Wolfard CSD catalog.Does anyone have a copy of this old Common
Sense Designs catalogue to share? I have lost
my copy.
Bruce Hallman
Also know as the Common Sense Skiff, design no. 571, it was an entry
in the 1991 WB contest. There's an article about it in the 15 Feb
1996 issue of MAIB, as well as in an old Bernie Wolfard CSD catalog.
It's 15'6" x 4'2" with a gunter sloop rig of 107 sq.ft. There is an
off-centreboard and a swing-up rudder. It's also designed to row or
use a small outboard. It has a flat, rockered bottom, unflared sides
and a smallish bow transom. Wolfard said it would be more complicated
to build than other small Bolger instant boats because of its Swiss-
army-knife capability.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
in the 1991 WB contest. There's an article about it in the 15 Feb
1996 issue of MAIB, as well as in an old Bernie Wolfard CSD catalog.
It's 15'6" x 4'2" with a gunter sloop rig of 107 sq.ft. There is an
off-centreboard and a swing-up rudder. It's also designed to row or
use a small outboard. It has a flat, rockered bottom, unflared sides
and a smallish bow transom. Wolfard said it would be more complicated
to build than other small Bolger instant boats because of its Swiss-
army-knife capability.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Mouradian" <r_mouradian@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was once told that Mr. Bolger had an entry in the "Perfect Skiff"
> contest that Wooden Boat ran several years ago and that the design
> was available through Common Sense Designs. I have searched the
> internet, but I have not been able to find any reference to that
> boat. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, is the design
> written up anywhere?
I was once told that Mr. Bolger had an entry in the "Perfect Skiff"
contest that Wooden Boat ran several years ago and that the design
was available through Common Sense Designs. I have searched the
internet, but I have not been able to find any reference to that
boat. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, is the design
written up anywhere?
Rob M
contest that Wooden Boat ran several years ago and that the design
was available through Common Sense Designs. I have searched the
internet, but I have not been able to find any reference to that
boat. Does anyone know if that is true? If so, is the design
written up anywhere?
Rob M