Re: [bolger] Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem "!

I would do a simple lashing to the mast useing siene twine and wrap the mast just like doing the bitter end of a line-je

boblq <boblq@...> wrote:On Sunday 17 October 2004 01:54 am, mannthree wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
> > Jamie,
>
> This sounds like a good solution to my problem which I shall try if
> the crack becomes larger,
>
> Regards,
>
> John Mann
>
> > Not quite the same problem, but I dragged my mast through some
>

At the risk of sounding like the barbarian I am I mus ask,
why not use an old farmers trick and simply wrap a bunch
of bailing wire around the scarf from one end the the other?
Set it in epoxy ... Betcha it will work, and it will have the
added benefit of causing all the yachties to freak out.

Or if you want to pretend you are "hi tech" use carbon fiber.

Chuckle,

boblq

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On Sunday 17 October 2004 01:54 am, mannthree wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
> > Jamie,
>
> This sounds like a good solution to my problem which I shall try if
> the crack becomes larger,
>
> Regards,
>
> John Mann
>
> > Not quite the same problem, but I dragged my mast through some
>

"If you can find some spar grade spruce even better!!! but it will
cost you an arm and a leg"

Depending on the dimensions needed, not sure if they prefer arms and legs
or first-born male children;

http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/

Darren

_____

From: dnjost [mailto:djost@...]
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 7:08 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem "!

I agree with the previous post about 1/4 sawn fir air dried vs. the
regular Home Despot kiln dried variety. The 1/4 sawn is much
better. still yet, clear spruce will bend and flex more than the
fir will, so I feel it is a better wood for spar making and oars.
If you can find some spar grade spruce even better!!! but it will
cost you an arm and a leg. Not much can prevent that low tree or
wire from snagging you mast at the ramp however.

David Jost

"Framed up the seats in a Pointy Skiff today, June Bug starts next
week."

Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:

> Jamie,

This sounds like a good solution to my problem which I shall try if
the crack becomes larger,

Regards,

John Mann

> Not quite the same problem, but I dragged my mast through some

tree

> branches (why would someone put a tree next to a boat launch

anyway?)

> and the mast cracked where it goes through the cabintop. My mast

> also glued up, and only the front 2" thick piece appeared to be
> damaged.
>
> I cut up from the bottom, past the crack, then cut on an angle,

about

> 12:1, from above the crack, meeting the first cut -- this made one
> half of the scarf for the new piece. Then I just had to clean up

the

> cuts, fit a new piece to match, glue it in then round and fair

it.

> It sounds complicated, but it wasn't really any harder than

scarfing

> the original stock -- my planks were long enough but I had to cut
> them to avoid some ugly knots. I did the first cuts from either

side

> with a skilsaw, cuting out the middle bit by hand where the saw
> wouldn't go deep enough, then used a wide chisel and a block plane

> finish cleaning up.
>
> Maybe you overclamped your scarf? The books say you will squeeze

out

> all the epoxy if you do that. They also say to wet the surfaces

with

> epoxy, and give it a few minutes to soak in so that the surface

don't

> absorb too much epoxy and leave the joint dry.
>
> Jamie Orr
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <johnmann@i...> wrote:
> >
> > The mast on my Micro has a nasty crack along the scarph joint.

> > constructed my mast out of four pieces of clear, well seasoned

fir

> > (2pieces @ 8' and 2 pieces @ 16' approx) by scarphing an 8 and a

> > and then gluing the two composite 24' pieces together. The two
> > scarph joints were at opposite ends of the mast. Unfortunately

one

> > of the scarph joints is near where the snotter attaches to the

mast

> > (a point of maximum stress). I have tried to fix the crack by
> > adding extra epoxy and covering the joint with a layer of glass
> > cloth and epoxy but the crack has re-appeared. Overall the mast
> > does not give me any problems and is quite stiff. I'm sure that
> > using large pieces of wood and not enough epoxy in the first

place

> > may have caused the problem. Has anyone had a similar

experience

> > and found a solution to this problem?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Mann (Sydney Australia)

I agree with the previous post about 1/4 sawn fir air dried vs. the
regular Home Despot kiln dried variety. The 1/4 sawn is much
better. still yet, clear spruce will bend and flex more than the
fir will, so I feel it is a better wood for spar making and oars.
If you can find some spar grade spruce even better!!! but it will
cost you an arm and a leg. Not much can prevent that low tree or
wire from snagging you mast at the ramp however.

David Jost

"Framed up the seats in a Pointy Skiff today, June Bug starts next
week."

Not quite the same problem, but I dragged my mast through some tree
branches (why would someone put a tree next to a boat launch anyway?)
and the mast cracked where it goes through the cabintop. My mast is
also glued up, and only the front 2" thick piece appeared to be
damaged.

I cut up from the bottom, past the crack, then cut on an angle, about
12:1, from above the crack, meeting the first cut -- this made one
half of the scarf for the new piece. Then I just had to clean up the
cuts, fit a new piece to match, glue it in then round and fair it.
It sounds complicated, but it wasn't really any harder than scarfing
the original stock -- my planks were long enough but I had to cut
them to avoid some ugly knots. I did the first cuts from either side
with a skilsaw, cuting out the middle bit by hand where the saw
wouldn't go deep enough, then used a wide chisel and a block plane to
finish cleaning up.

Maybe you overclamped your scarf? The books say you will squeeze out
all the epoxy if you do that. They also say to wet the surfaces with
epoxy, and give it a few minutes to soak in so that the surface don't
absorb too much epoxy and leave the joint dry.

Jamie Orr

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <johnmann@i...> wrote:
>
> The mast on my Micro has a nasty crack along the scarph joint. I
> constructed my mast out of four pieces of clear, well seasoned fir
> (2pieces @ 8' and 2 pieces @ 16' approx) by scarphing an 8 and a 16
> and then gluing the two composite 24' pieces together. The two
> scarph joints were at opposite ends of the mast. Unfortunately one
> of the scarph joints is near where the snotter attaches to the mast
> (a point of maximum stress). I have tried to fix the crack by
> adding extra epoxy and covering the joint with a layer of glass
> cloth and epoxy but the crack has re-appeared. Overall the mast
> does not give me any problems and is quite stiff. I'm sure that
> using large pieces of wood and not enough epoxy in the first place
> may have caused the problem. Has anyone had a similar experience
> and found a solution to this problem?
>
> Regards,
>
> John Mann (Sydney Australia)

Douglas fir can be a little more brittle than spruce, but it is stronger
at the same dimensions. Quality quarter sawn clear Doug fir is great stuff.

I would bet that the 2x4 that you had explode was not quarter sawn. It
might be clear ie knot free but the grain was probably pretty wild. You
can get significant stress in pieces that are new growth and kiln dried.
All it means is that piece is in equilibrium as it sits, get it wet or
cut a piece off and the pushes and pulls are no longer in balance. I
have ripped a piece off a construction grade 2/4 and thought the end was
going to come around and tap me on the shoulder from behind.

A final thought, if that piece of wood was labeled fir or hem fir and
not Douglas Fir, it could easily have been Hemlock which is a great trim
and decorative wood, but terrible as a boatbuilding wood, very brittle
and rot prone.

HJ

Roger Derby wrote:

>I've been wondering about that. I'm glad to see it confirmed.
>
>When I was accumulating Douglas Fir for my discontinued Badger project, the
>local lumber company had 2x4s in stock, but had to order the other sizes
>from the west coast. I grabbed one of the 2x4s a few weeks ago to cut out
>motor mounts. It sawed to shape fine, but when I went to drilled the bolt
>holes, it exploded into several pieces. The breaks ran both across the
>grain and along it.
>
>Obviously this was "internal stresses," but I would have thought that these
>would have equalized over the year or two of sitting. Is the result of
>improper kiln drying or just the nature of the stuff?
>
>Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
>
><snip>
>
>
>
>>Fir is more brittle than spruce.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> >

The crack is along the scarph joint in the wood and has not impacted
the fibreglass yet. The mast seems to work ok (I recently was out in
gusts up to 20 knots. I suppose all I can do is keep on using it
until it snaps. At least I'll have a spare mizzen if I cut it to
size!

John Mann

The mast on my Micro has a nasty crack along the scarph joint.

> > John Mann (Sydney Australia)
>
> If the question is whether you repair is strong enough,
> the only certain way to answer that is to proof test it.
> Perhaps first try it 'dry' and then on the water, to see
> if it will really break in actual use, before you throw it
> out.
>
> If the flaw gnaws at your peace of mind, then I
> am with David, replace it.
>
> In theory, bending strength comes from the
> external layer of the 'beam', so tension strength from
> a fiberglass patch is in the right place. The crack
> you describe is in the wood, not the fiberglass, right?
> Your patch might be good enough.

> The mast on my Micro has a nasty crack along the scarph joint.
> John Mann (Sydney Australia)

If the question is whether you repair is strong enough,
the only certain way to answer that is to proof test it.
Perhaps first try it 'dry' and then on the water, to see
if it will really break in actual use, before you throw it
out.

If the flaw gnaws at your peace of mind, then I
am with David, replace it.

In theory, bending strength comes from the
external layer of the 'beam', so tension strength from
a fiberglass patch is in the right place. The crack
you describe is in the wood, not the fiberglass, right?
Your patch might be good enough.

I've been wondering about that. I'm glad to see it confirmed.

When I was accumulating Douglas Fir for my discontinued Badger project, the
local lumber company had 2x4s in stock, but had to order the other sizes
from the west coast. I grabbed one of the 2x4s a few weeks ago to cut out
motor mounts. It sawed to shape fine, but when I went to drilled the bolt
holes, it exploded into several pieces. The breaks ran both across the
grain and along it.

Obviously this was "internal stresses," but I would have thought that these
would have equalized over the year or two of sitting. Is the result of
improper kiln drying or just the nature of the stuff?

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "dnjost" <djost@...>

<snip>

> Fir is more brittle than spruce.

I think that the answer might be to build another mast. If you add
up the time and aggravation that it takes to repair it, then worry
about it...I think that the $60 inverstment in a new pile of spruce
might be a better use of your time. Fir is more brittle than
spruce.

Good luck, and my sympathies.

David Jost
"closing in on the neighborhood Pointy Skiff project"

The mast on my Micro has a nasty crack along the scarph joint. I
constructed my mast out of four pieces of clear, well seasoned fir
(2pieces @ 8' and 2 pieces @ 16' approx) by scarphing an 8 and a 16
and then gluing the two composite 24' pieces together. The two
scarph joints were at opposite ends of the mast. Unfortunately one
of the scarph joints is near where the snotter attaches to the mast
(a point of maximum stress). I have tried to fix the crack by
adding extra epoxy and covering the joint with a layer of glass
cloth and epoxy but the crack has re-appeared. Overall the mast
does not give me any problems and is quite stiff. I'm sure that
using large pieces of wood and not enough epoxy in the first place
may have caused the problem. Has anyone had a similar experience
and found a solution to this problem?

Regards,

John Mann (Sydney Australia)

Re: [bolger] Re: &quot;Houston, We Have a Problem &quot;!

Re: [bolger] Re: "Houston, We Have a Problem "!